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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • Good Seed and Omake Spreadsheet Rules:

    Firstly, if you have questions about Good Seeds and the like please read here. If that doesn't answer your question please ping me in thread, or on Discord.

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    Omake Writer Instructions:

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    • Olivebirdy said:
    I'm not arguing that it's a bad idea to get the Palace, I'm wondering if perhaps we should have Manuel focus on making money this turn instead of assassination.
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    I don't think so. We have a base 20% of failure, and if we fail we will lose a large amount of wealth and a ton of our disciples, which we simply cannot afford right before the trials. We get stronger the more people we have due to our formation specialty.

    However, if Manuel acts we only have a 1~2 percent chance of failure, which basically means we are nearly assured success.

    The wealth we would gain from an economic action is not worth the risk of huge losses from failure.
     
    I mean, to get into the reddit-sparked debate, I always figured it was always intended to be a bit of hypocrisy on their part. Sure, they're better in a lot of ways we like, but a lot of the arrogance, the "our ways are better" and "we're better then them, despite largely doing the same thing" is there. Hell, notice what they call outsiders(as established by Alectai): barbarians.

    And there's the very real question of how much of what good they do was always like they were, or if countless years opposing the heavens for being "evil/cruel/vicious" has caused them to double-down on being "good", and so ground away a lot of the less savory aspects of their culture?

    Put simply my view is that the whole thing started over "I dislike the cruel setup of these Heavens, let's institute the cruel Righteous setup of Our Heavens". And if the current Golden Devils ever encountered their original culture, they'd probably oppose them as well.
     
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    Gore17 said:
    Put simply my view is that the whole thing started over "I dislike the cruel setup of these Heavens, let's institute the cruel Righteous setup of Our Heavens". And if the current Golden Devils ever encountered their original culture, they'd probably oppose them as well.
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    For that matter, i've always kind of assumed from how things were written that the Golden Devil's predate the foundation of the blood path and perhaps even the death of the turtle, which would mean the people the cultivators of the Third Turtle Island might have been a lot better then the desperate wartorn ones of today who have the horrible incetives of Demonic Soup Chefs legacy combined with the sheer dearth of resources that has contributed to things turning out so badly.

    If I ever feel like I have the writing chops to make a good seed I think that'd be a decent hook for a omake. Maybe something along the lines of them finding the Lingering Will of some cultivator who died opposing the conquest of their home, who releases the last of their power to help a outnumbered Golden Devil cohort save a mortal village from being pillaged by their many enemies because Cultivator's are supposed to be the Sword and Shields of Humanity.

    Or maybe a ligngering will of one of the original conquering soldiers like Rina found that tries to cajole the good seed into convincing the clan to abandon it's lofty ideals, i.e., allowing mortals nations to largely have autonomy in how they govern themselves and not ruthlessly taxing and working them to death for every drop of advantage to fuel the Golden Devil war machine in the name of some nebulous greater good.
     
    @occipitallobe to clarify something, would repairing the Broken Technique Palace take 80 Wealth as a lump sum or would it be a long term investment of reducing income to shunt resources towards repairing it? I'm assuming its the first from what you've said but I wanted to confirm ahead of any votes I might make.
     
    ninjastar said:
    I don't think so. We have a base 20% of failure, and if we fail we will lose a large amount of wealth and a ton of our disciples, which we simply cannot afford right before the trials. We get stronger the more people we have due to our formation specialty.

    However, if Manuel acts we only have a 1~2 percent chance of failure, which basically means we are nearly assured success.

    The wealth we would gain from an economic action is not worth the risk of huge losses from failure.
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    The other option is just not killing the Elder. We're not forced to undertake this attack on our rival's future potential, so it's worth considering whether having (almost?) enough money next turn is worth not sabotaging Jiangshen.
     
    Olivebirdy said:
    The other option is just not killing the Elder. We're not forced to undertake this attack on our rival's future potential, so it's worth considering whether having (almost?) enough money next turn is worth not sabotaging Jiangshen.
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    Except we are screwed if the Jingshen clan gets two Mid Nascent souls. We need to weaken them or it won't be long until we are destroyed.
     
    ninjastar said:
    Except we are screwed if the Jingshen clan gets two Mid Nascent souls. We need to weaken them or it won't be long until we are destroyed.
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    Yeah like no joke, I'm genuinely shocked at how we've been juggling the enemies we've picked so far, but the Jiangshen Clan are coming across as the real threat for us to look out for, especially as we prep to transition to finishing off the Blood Cannibals.
     
    BungieONI said:
    @occipitallobe to clarify something, would repairing the Broken Technique Palace take 80 Wealth as a lump sum or would it be a long term investment of reducing income to shunt resources towards repairing it? I'm assuming its the first from what you've said but I wanted to confirm ahead of any votes I might make.
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    It sounds like a shortish term, i guess maybe 2 turns at most

    occipitallobe said:
    Usually you'll need a lot of wealth. Magical treasures like these need huge sums of various Heavenly materials to be repaired, and normally it's a relatively short but immensely expensive process.
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    I asked abit earlier if we could spread out the repair process
     
    Sara said:
    For that matter, i've always kind of assumed from how things were written that the Golden Devil's predate the foundation of the blood path and perhaps even the death of the turtle, which would mean the people the cultivators of the Third Turtle Island might have been a lot better then the desperate wartorn ones of today who have the horrible incetives of Demonic Soup Chefs legacy combined with the sheer dearth of resources that has contributed to things turning out so badly.

    If I ever feel like I have the writing chops to make a good seed I think that'd be a decent hook for a omake. Maybe something along the lines of them finding the Lingering Will of some cultivator who died opposing the conquest of their home, who releases the last of their power to help a outnumbered Golden Devil cohort save a mortal village from being pillaged by their many enemies because Cultivator's are supposed to be the Sword and Shields of Humanity.

    Or maybe a ligngering will of one of the original conquering soldiers like Rina found that tries to cajole the good seed into convincing the clan to abandon it's lofty ideals, i.e., allowing mortals nations to largely have autonomy in how they govern themselves and not ruthlessly taxing and working them to death for every drop of advantage to fuel the Golden Devil war machine in the name of some nebulous greater good.
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    I mean to fulfill my self-appointed role of encouraging people to join as Good Seed, Come On in!

    If your torn between 2 ideas, you can always introduce a normal Good Seed first and then narrow down on the point you wanna approach when you decided ? Both seem interesting to explore, in a " what have my descendants become " perspective from both sides of the equation. I mean a good way to space it out is maybe the first omake/introduction has the will only be able to convey basic stuff with more and more details being added over time

    Depending on which route you go, that can also add drama when it turns out that his teacher has differing views to him/her and all that
    BungieONI said:
    Thankie thankie!

    Yeah I'm not confident it will ever be a Foundation Establishment benefit if that's the case, oh well.
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    Yeah, in keeping with Heaven Will ignoring Xiao Yi, he just missed it as well :rofl:

    The qualitative boost it grants our Qi Condensation cultivators is still something i feel to be of much worth hence my desperate pushing for it since the update lol. I guess when votes open i just go for a [] Palace, cus that's all i'm really invested in
     
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    BungieONI said:
    Thankie thankie!

    Yeah I'm not confident it will ever be a Foundation Establishment benefit if that's the case, oh well.
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    You're looking at it from the perspective of it being useful for the us of right now, but that's not quite accurate.

    This is...a mid-game to late-game upgrade that we're getting at an absurd price that's meant to be balanced for our economy way in the future I think. Once we break the curse of poverty, saving up to afford fixing this should be the work of several turns worth of saving up once we break 10 wealth per turn or so.
     
    TehChron said:
    You're looking at it from the perspective of it being useful for the us of right now, but that's not quite accurate.

    This is...a mid-game to late-game upgrade that we're getting at an absurd price that's meant to be balanced for our economy way in the future I think. Once we break the curse of poverty, saving up to afford fixing this should be the work of several turns worth of saving up once we break 10 wealth per turn or so.
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    I'm looking at it in terms of "what threats face us now and in ten+ turns".

    In all honesty until that wealth and most especially time to build it up manifests, I ain't gonna believe its going to happen, mostly because any such expansion is based on speculation from before the singularity point of not only the coming trials but the next trials as well and whatever stuff decides to blow up in between them.

    Among other things, defeating the Blood Cannibals is going to take scads of cash going by what we'll need to recoup war losses and defend against Jingshen not wanting to be trapped in the thunderdome with just us. Plus whatever we're going to have to do to defend our gains, and the Palace, from sabotage and invasion and/or other forms of destruction.

    So yes we could and should get it, and work towards repairing it since that is synonymous with increasing economic capacity, I just don't really expect that to actually go anywhere in terms of repairing the palace and instead that we'll see most of the increased economic capacity being put forward to supply a second Nascent Soul and defeating the cannibals and other enemies that we create over time.

    Actually, question that occurs to me. @occipitallobe if we did get the palace, would the Trial Hunters be allowed to and inclined to destroy it? I.e is it a hard asset we could feasibly lose (disregarding crit fails due to their rarity making them not really feasible) during a Trial? If it is, what sort of steps would we need to take to mitigate that potential risk?
     
    occipitallobe said:
    That being said Rome/Byzantium versus China is more a historical 'who would win' Youtube video than modern imperialism writ large.
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    Also a lot of the cases miss out the sheer scale of the differences between the two Empires, technology and culture aside, the fundamental geography of its existence made it a very different ball game.

    Mountainous and hilly Europe was a patchwork of territories that are hard to take and easy to hold. The infamous Roman Bloodymindedness worked great because they'd just get up and go at it again until the nut was cracked open, stuffed full of Rome and then planted to grow a new crop. Rome was super martial, every inch of gain had to be hard fought to take and hold until all who would reclaim it are gone. The Mediterranean coast was amazing for trade, and allowed Rome to be easily profit and grow from its earliest conquests(whereas in other, less convenient parts, loot was either good slaves or precious metal). Where it broke apart, none of the bits had the ability to reclaim any other bits anymore without an Empire behind them.

    And on the other hand, China was, by the scale of nations, basically a series of massive floodplains. Lots of people, winner takes all. Victory and defeat could be lightning fast, and tapering off into impossible to settle steppes meant that really, most people could be at peace if they wished, except on that border stoppering the nomads. So things were bureaucratic and mercantile, with collapses being fast but the restorations being just as quick, its not particularly militarily difficult to conquer the whole thing in a generation once you could get momentum, and the commoners got with the program soon enough.

    At least both apples and oranges grow on trees. The basic geography differences involved meant that basically everything useful to one culture would be a niche application in the other.
     
    Hitting the Jiangshen sounds like better the better move.

    First I viewed them as neutral party disguised themselves as an ally. Now I view them as an enemy disguising themselves as someone neutral.
     
    Oh that Palace is a cruel temptress. Its exactly the sort of thing we need to stop just bleeding and start growing.

    I think I would rather roll the dice on the assassination, taking the 80% chance of success, and have our personal action focus on wealth or lecturing. Wealth if we buy the palace, lecturing if not.

    In this kind of scenario we are only going to succeed if we take risks and a 4 in 5 chance of success is a rare enough privelige for us already.

    @occipitallobe good to see your doing better!

    Now I just need to get my Omake on again.
     
    For the palace, I wonder if we could steal it, or offer them reduced tariffs for a bunch of years in return for it. Maybe we could offer them a powerful array for their main base in return for it? @occipitallobe

    If we strain our brain muscles, there could possibly be a way to still get the palace without having to give up our work on the scorpion road or purchasing pills and formation plates.
     
    BungieONI said:
    Among other things, defeating the Blood Cannibals is going to take scads of cash going by what we'll need to recoup war losses and defend against Jingshen not wanting to be trapped in the thunderdome with just us. Plus whatever we're going to have to do to defend our gains, and the Palace, from sabotage and invasion and/or other forms of destruction.
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    Hehehehehehehehehehe

    I've been work shopping write-in schemes for a while now.

    I think that once the relevant opportunities present themselves you'll be pleasantly surprised.
     
    I'm going to put the discussion of the reddit thread under the cut. To be clear, I'm the person who wrote the """scathing critique""" on there.

    Sara said:
    Well, it seems like a pretty minor thing that I don't really grasp the responses too in the reddit super well other then misunderstanding what a doylist critique is I guess and I'm not that person, but -

    Well the reason for that is probably because Imperialism, is uh, a bit of a touchy subject for a lot of people in the world. When you combine with the fact that the PC clan are extremely european coded and that engaged in conquest for the purposes of *checks notes* bringing stability and civilization, a moral figleaf often given by rl nations of that ilk, to a bunch of 'barbaric savages', of whom the only one's we've seen given much narrative focus are extremely coded as *checks more notes* various different eastern locales that just happened to be victims of said rl imperialism I think it kind of understandable that it might make them somewhat uncomfortable.

    Which isn't to say anyone shouldn't like it, it would be hypocritical of me considering I agree with that person that the quest is really fun and charming, liking things with problematic elements is okay blah blah blah, but it's also valid for those to be turns off for you and it doesn't make someone a bad person if they are.
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    This ^^^

    I'm a trigger warning kind of person. If I feel like someone would feel better if they were warned in advance, I'm giving the advance warning. It's a recommendation post, not a purity debate or w/e. It's not like we WANT people who'd go "oh my god imperialism that's horrible I hate the entire everything about this" to come to the thread?
    Mochinator said:
    Eh, i mean this really proves the whole other perspective thing i guess. Because i came in and saw the quest as a deconstruction of Xianxia, with the western/imperial background acting as basically the one thing you don't see in the genre.

    But yeah i can see why they looked at it from that perspective if they only skimmed the summary + thread i guess.
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    The point of a recommendation post is writing it for someone who hasn't even skimmed the summary yet?

    And I assure you, I feel the mild skeevy feeling wrt the whole heroic imperials vs filthy barbarians setup even as I'm writing some parts of my Good Seed omakes. It's more mild one than I feel ever looking at news, ever, so it's fine, just - yeah. Trigger warnings, as above.
    occipitallobe said:
    @Sara

    I think it's not an unfair perspective, necessarily.

    That being said Rome/Byzantium versus China is more a historical 'who would win' Youtube video than modern imperialism writ large.
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    v e r y t r u e <3 <3 <3

    occipitallobe said:
    Also the Clan are definitely imperialist. They come from another world to conquer this one. The imperialism evoked is (intended to be) directed at xianxia tropes, not Chinese culture, though.
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    Xianxia tropes incorporate (some version of) Chinese culture, so I don't think this is avoidable.

    That said, it's entertaining and clearly recognizable as intended - both parties calling each other barbarians and all that. It's good shit, just that I could not feel like I could in good conscience join my voice to the recommendation without noting it.
     
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    TehChron said:
    Hehehehehehehehehehe

    I've been work shopping write-in schemes for a while now.

    I think that once the relevant opportunities present themselves you'll be pleasantly surprised.
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    How so?
    Because, while I might trust your planning skills chron, it's gonna take a hell of a lot more than a 'wait and see what I have planned like I'm some sort of QM instead of a fellow player who should lay their cards on the table' for me to go with you on this
     
    Kaboomatic said:
    How so?
    Because, while I might trust your planning skills chron, it's gonna take a hell of a lot more than a 'wait and see what I have planned like I'm some sort of QM instead of a fellow player who should lay their cards on the table' for me to go with you on this
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    Well I'm not asking you to go along with those schemes until the opportunity presents itself now am I?

    [X] Plan Old Dickory, Technique Palace Version
    -[X] Accept the Deal
    --[X] "It is regrettable that the Golden Devil Clan has little choice but to accept that their unjust demands of mere material wealth in the face of the noble and righteous efforts of the Strength Purity Sect are merely craven opportunism, the result of grasping too far to satiate their bottomless greed as members of the Demonic Powers. But given the Strength Purity Sect's many successes in the Ninth Demon Annihilating War, it is only natural that as the Golden Devils stand in awe of the Righteous Paths power and justice, that they give the Strength Purity Sect the necessary face of continuing to mete out Heaven-Sent justice upon the monstrous Blood Path Cultivators of the Demonic Altar Sect. And if some of their ill-begotten treasure, doubtless wrested from those poor innocents under their sway somehow leave their hands? It is only natural that they fall into those more needy than themselves, such as the paragons of justice: The ever-honorable Flood Dragon Gang, who's loss was the first shot in this tragic but necessary war."
    -[X] Kill Him
    --[X] "The Soul Draining Parasite is a subtle creature. It does not hatch, save when there is a great amount of ambient qi to nurture the egg and provide nourishment. From there it drains only a small amount, a droplet of qi from it's host to sustain itself in its larval form. Growing swiftly but steadily, matched to it's host like one of any number of parasites found in the wild. It remains, largely indistinguishable from it's hosts own Qi even as it draws more and more of its hosts energies into itself, fueling its growth until even a Nascent Soul is unable to sustain this burden without harm to themselves. What makes this all the more deadly, is that though the Soul Draining Parasite is a rare creature, to match its rarity and better enable the pursuit of its true hosts, why, this smallest of Demonic Beasts can - like the many insects in the world - reproduce and scatter its eggs upon the winds of Qi, and only requires that the prospective host take that Qi into themselves willingly, if not knowingly. Such a nefarious creature."
    -[X] Training Soldiers - Raising Disciples to higher Realms is all well and good, but training them to be perfect members of Formations is better. Ensure your Clan is trained and ready for war. Your readiness to go to war will increase significantly, though this fades over time.
    --[X] "Heraclius is a good man, if limited. Unfortunately, due to the needs of the moment and the desperation to consolidate our many gains these past few decades, it is necessity itself to integrate our command structure as thoroughly as possible to make up for the losses of two Protostrator within a century. The Trials are approaching, and thus we must do everything possible to retain as much strength as possible in order to take advantage of this newly chaotic landscape, where opportunity and danger await in equal measure. Ha! Just like always, in this unjust world of yours!"
    -[X] Hunt An Enemy (The Seven Divine Saber Core Formation Elder) - Why not? Hunt down enemies, see if you can kill someone. Usually used against an opposing Nascent Soul. Potentially very dangerous.
    --[X]"A most fortuitous circumstance in a larger tragedy, Lady Jiao. Preliminary investigations of the corpses condition have revealed that the poor man was afflicted with a fully matured Soul Draining Parasite. We have not performed an autopsy of course, but from all appearances it seems that this man was never intended to finish the journey to Jiangshen Clan along our Scorpion Road. Presumably the numerous efforts by our Golden Devils to renovate and improve the Road triggered the creature to hatch, and devoured the poor Elder to death before he completed his journey, though it seems odd to sacrifice an individual so valuable on such a poorly built frame job. Hmm? How do they reproduce you ask? Why, the eggs are implanted into a host by sending them along emanations of Qi, so it is all but impossible to implant one into an unwilling target you see, as they must be prepared to take in and integrate foreign Qi, a practice that is nominally restricted to the reproductive habits of certain-Is something the matter, Lady Jiao? You've gone rather pale all of a sudden."
    -[X] Purchase Broken Eight-Hundred and Eighty-Hundred Technique Cultivation Palace (20 Wealth)
    --[X]"A remarkable opportunity indeed. Ordinarily it would be a wiser choice to act on the opportunities already present, and prudence would stay our hand in favor of securing the lives of our fellows as much as possible. But here we have been presented an opportunity to gamble. Yes, our Juniors will be less prepared to weather the trials ahead of us. There is no helping that we have been immeasurably weakened by the conflicts we have already experienced this past hundred years. Yet. Here and now, lies an opportunity to permanently reverse the weakening of our Juniors. It is a strength that is not spent in one simple burst of power. A one-time expense of wealth made in desperation. This is a gamble, make no mistake, that our losses from these coming Trials will not be so ruinous as to destroy us. That the strength we can obtain from this coming Trial will mean that this is the weakest we shall ever be again. A renewed strength for our Qi Condensation Cultivators, and a new path. A new Grand Project. Should we repair this Technique Palace, all our Juniors shall benefit, new techniques, new power, and the retention of what would otherwise be lost in the greater investments of our Foundation Building and Core Condensing Cultivators. Let us take this gamble, a last, final pain to endure, for the sake of a far better tomorrow. That never again shall we fall so low as we have now."

    It should've been 12 hours by now I think
     
    Katana1515 said:
    I think I would rather roll the dice on the assassination, taking the 80% chance of success, and have our personal action focus on wealth or lecturing. Wealth if we buy the palace, lecturing if not.

    In this kind of scenario we are only going to succeed if we take risks and a 4 in 5 chance of success is a rare enough privilege for us already.
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    The other possibility is not taking the deal. A 20% chance of another Nascent Soul in our corner is a big deal, but it's also going to cost 3-9 Wealth over the next three turns.
     
    And you know? As the guy that conceptualized it?

    That's fair!

    Of course the Golden Devils would play up their own side of it! The fact is that whatever their justification, they still decided "Well, we're just going to take over everything" is an asshole move done by assholes. That's the point. The core premise here was grabbing the brainbug of "Alien Cultivators" and then turning one of those into a playable faction that doesn't have infinite power and resources because alien magic, since that's a common endgame threat.

    The modern Golden Devils are legitimately decent guys who've largely been assimilated by the regional culture for all that they profess ties of some greater nobility, and most of their 'Protests' are entirely ceremonial. They started out having to have a loose grip as a matter of "Oh fuck we can't afford to have a tight grip, because we get punched down to size often enough that we can't expect anything but love to cover us during our weak periods", and it's sort of morphed into the modern state of smugly being better than most of the Righteous Paths while running good administration, well loved by their subordinates instead of feared by all.

    If they were to win now, they'd probably still do what they're doing because so much of their modern culture boils down to spite against the shitty, post-apocalyptic hellscape that they've lived in. Whether their ideals and actions were this high minded back in the day is something I've tried to leave ambiguous in my own omake content.

    [X] Plan Old Dickory, Technique Palace Version
     
    TehChron said:
    --[X]"A most fortuitous circumstance in a larger tragedy, Lady Jiao. Preliminary investigations of the corpses condition have revealed that the poor man was afflicted with a fully matured Soul Draining Parasite. We have not performed an autopsy of course, but from all appearances it seems that this man was never intended to finish the journey to Jiangshen Clan along our Scorpion Road. Presumably the numerous efforts by our Golden Devils to renovate and improve the Road triggered the creature to hatch, and devoured the poor Elder to death before he completed his journey, though it seems odd to sacrifice an individual so valuable on such a poorly built frame job. Hmm? How do they reproduce you ask? Why, the eggs are implanted into a host by sending them along emanations of Qi, so it is all but impossible to implant one into an unwilling target you see, as they must be prepared to take in and integrate foreign Qi, a practice that is nominally restricted to the reproductive habits of certain-Is something the matter, Lady Jiao? You've gone rather pale all of a sudden."
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    This is actually a really good idea, I was wrong. It makes it seems like the Sabre Palace was planning to kill Jiao and the core dude dying was a mistake on their part. I pretty much agree with everything in your plan then, I still have some misgivings about spending 20 wealth on the technique palace, but I guess sometimes you have to take risks.

    Let's just hope the dice are in our favour and we don't get destroyed

    [X] Plan Old Dickory, Technique Palace Version
     
    TehChron said:
    Well I'm not asking you to go along with those schemes until the opportunity presents itself now am I?
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    No, but you are asking that we vote for your current plan, which is spending a bunch of money for future gains, partially based on the assumptions that you both have plans to deal with the lack of funds we're gonna have if your plan wins, and those plans are good enough to make the risk worthwhile.

    And besides, there is literally no cost to just telling us what your future plans are, so I have absolutely no idea why you're being all smug and mysterious

    So convince me chron. Please. Because I want to be convinced
     
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