Grandfather Clock and the Town of Mimics (Mafia)

Cyricubed said:

Alright so I was looking to see if you were going to try and curb that theory to one side or another. But instead you tackled it openly and considered it a possibilty with decent logic. If your scum then you damn well deserve the W for bambozling me that hard.

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PyrrosWarrior said:

Okay, and I'm caught up.



Cyricubed: They come off as light town with strong opinions. They've consistently stuck their neck out over things while also flowing rather naturally with the conversation of the hour. They aren't pushing specific narratives, but neither are they refusing to engage or give anything to whatever is going on at the moment. That feels like a Town Cyri.

Mesonoxian: Slight scum, but nothing damning enough to bet on it. They've made very pointed and public redirects that could come as shading Rosen heavily early on. They are definitely worth following up on, but I just am not getting strong enough thoughts reading through their posts to say that they are definitely without-a-doubt scum, as opposed to just having scummy posts (which, to an extent, most town trying to win will have).

Yun: NAI. I feel like the things you guys are pointing out as "hard scum" come off more as "light scum" at worst. Certainly nothing particularly damning for Yun. That said, a very consistent lack of actual direction is in their posts. Beyond defending themselves, they refuse to do anything more than just offer endless questions, a bit like Hobo. They are definitely worth trying to pressure into offering more solid stances and solid arguments against not just their past decisions, but also their current ones. They are either scum's easy lynch, or hapless scum whose only tactic is to redirect.

Shalmoa: They come off more as bumbling town than scum if I were forced to choose as Pawn asked. No strong opinions on them though. Part of it can probably be attributed to the fact that I don't really know who they are or how they play.

OriginalName/InterstellarHobo: OriginalName's posts feel like hapless flailing back and forth and all around before becoming wishy-washy on whether or not to lynch Happerry. Are they new? If they are new, that's a "maybe confused town." If they aren't, that's, uh, have vet scum ever done refuge in audacity as a serious/wine tactic? For Hobo's part, they have been a bit better, though they still stay mostly on the outside of the arguments. Their modus operandi for the game has been throwing pointed questioning at specific individualsl (mostly against Rosen and now Yun) without much follow-up or actually leading that information into an argument. It could be an attempt to look Towny from a less active scum, or it could just be them doing what they can as Town without a lot of time available.

In general I feel like they should answer more anyhow, as they are one of the smaller posters of the thread. @InterstellarHobo

QuantumTesseract/Pawn Lelouch: Completely null. I didn't have a profile on QT going through this due to their general inactivity. I want to believe that they come off a bit as inactive town, but at the same time I don't really think that is in any way something I would be willing to bet on given that it, you know, would just purely be a subjective, gut read. Pawn, meanwhile, hasn't been around long enough for me to see anything of him that screams" this is totally Town Pawn."

Shadell: This one is a bit weird. I wouldn't say Shadell is scummy, but do you guys know how in most games Nictis and Terra or some other pair of "big name" players usually break out in to an argument that turns out to be Town v Town? Shadell's arguments up until this point feel kinda like that 3rd person in those arguments that usually shapes the narrative between the two without committing enough to have their name associated with it. I don't think that feeling is scummy in this context so much as NAI, but the complete ability of them to seriously have been considered basically the only person who hasn't really been pushed as being "possibly" scum in any manner out of all the active players kinda rankles my paranoia a bit. I don't know enough about them to know if that's their playstyle, or if they are possibly a good enough Mafia player to avoid the pitfalls that usually have most big name Town players with at least one black mark against them at this point.

Another thing that rankled my paranoia a bit going through there is that there weren't really any "arguments" over who to commit to lynching throughout each day. At least once by now you would think an argument would break out between two or more options, but nothing serious was really debated. Too peaceful a vote is generally indicative of scum leading town astray.

Just about the only good thing I can say is that it doesn't look like scum has really tried a divide-and-conquer strategy this game. For better or worse, that silence means that Town has stayed mostly united instead of being overly prone to in-fighting and factionalism to the better extent you could expect of a mafia game. That also means, however, that it is almost guaranteed that the at least one, but likely both, of the scum is among Town's leading players having subordinated the vote enough to feel safe. The important thing going forward would be to take care balancing Town's need for unity to leverage our numerical advantage, with the need to purge the scum hiding among us.

Whew. That was a long post to make. Almost 1000 words! I hope it's actually helpful. I kinda had a hard time forming some opinions on some people.

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PyrrosWarrior said:

Here now. I'm still building the info blocks Pawn asked for. Is there anything else you would like to ask me?

It feels non-committal because ALL my reads every single game are flexible. It's why I have a record every single game of refusing to give hard reads, which I've already told you guys before. I don't have hard reads and I never do. The only reason I even gave some here is because due to subbing in, I haven't had a chance to build up my usual rapport as I have in every other game and thus need to say something or just come off even more suspicious than not at a critical point in the game.

Like seriously, I hate answering the "reads" question because I never have anything solid and all it does is provide scum an easy push to say I'm "scummy."I am always coming off non-committal because I'm never honestly sure of myself and you guys just never seem to pick up on this across multiple games despite my directly saying it multiple times when questioned on it before. Part of putting yourself "into someone's POV" as you said you are includes actually personalizing how they act based upon their general playstyle. Newer players can be dangerous because you don't know how they act or react in different situations, not just because you need to go easier on them "just because." You don't have that same limit with me because I have an established playstyle for Townie and Scummy roles for you to put yourself into each "POV." Of course a smart player would try to mix it up a bit to not get too predictable, but it still provides more a starting point than treating my POV as "generic Mafia player that plays vaguely like Nictis or Evenstar"

The bit regarding "town direction" and "no in-fighting" is my meta-analysis and advice. It's consistently the only thing I've ever been good at when playing Town and I want to contribute somehow since I suck at everything else. I can't do that to the same extent I normally do since lore and fluff is pretty much pointless, so there's really no guessing what kinds of roles scum has or the form scum would take. We already know Scum can do basic kills and Town is all vanilla because that's the setup of the game. No need for analysis there.

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PyrrosWarrior said:

The parts in [] colored yellow are areas where I edited in comments for clarity. I also edited in the day the quotes were taken from up in the "name" portion of the quote. This should hopefully reduce the amount of spoilers needed to organize these, as well as prevent that one glitch from last time where too many quotes and spoilers made the post not load properly for some people.


If anything sticks out to you guys, I can also retrieve the quotes that these quotes were responding to. Just not doing it since I believe that was one of the things causing the glitch last time.

Spoiler: Scia/Pyrros

Okay, so this is Scia's first serious post taking a stance on anything D1. She finds the large number of meme votes (spurred partially by Nictis telling people to sheep him) against Nictis somewhat suspicious. This took place barely in to Day 1.


This is their explanation to voting Mesonoxian upon being accused of voting him for being scum in last game. I believe what they were trying to say was that they hoped by making the vote slightly more competitive, that it would evoke more serious discussion. I could be misreading that though. I think I can understand the premise, but it sounds a bit unclear to me.
A follow-up to their explanation later in Town, with them nulling their vote on Mesonoxian as the meme vote wagon is off.

Upon being asked who they would vote out if they had to vote at that very minute, they give a maybe towards Yun and state that Rosen and Cyricubed seem slightly Towny to them.
Breakdown of vote changes of EoD1


Gives out suspicions over Rosen as D2 ends.
States that they believe one scum was hiding on the Rosen wagon, and one was voting for Yun D2.
This is the only real post I've made towards any kind of feelings about any posters.

Spoiler: Original/Hobo

Original's second vote on Day 1, after trying (albeit in a messed-up format) to vote Mesonoxian. Normally I would write this off as just meme votes in early game, but they said it is serious so I put it in.


They state they feel that Zaelix's oddness over Rosen implicates Zaelix as possibly being scum.

Gives light town reads on Nictis and Rosen.
Switches vote to Happerry


Starts off their first moves with a barrage against Rosen.
Nulls it claiming memery.

Continues the Rosen-related questioning.
Pushes Shadell as Town
Gives a read over Scia's post and Yun's post respectively
Goes back to the Rosen push that he has been going at the whole Day 2.

Gives light reasoning for Nictis and Zaelix's deaths.
Pushes back against Yun stating that QT's inactivity could be a scum tactic to fly under the radar.
Scumreads Yun, QT, and Mesonoxian. Claims likely team is Meso/Yun or QT/other.

This was about Hobo feeling Mesonoxian dropped their scum read of Yun suddenly.
Day 3 reads
States that my characterization of them as generally pushing without consolidating to be a mischaracterization.
A follow-up on the previous pushing to get Mesonoxian to be clearer about their Yun stance.

Votes Mesonoxian and states their belief in a Yun/Meso scum team after finding Meso's answers unsatisfactory or otherwise interpreting them as non-answers.
Defends their argument that splitting between a Yun and Shalmoa wagon is fine because scum tying the vote would look extremely obvious
Continued push on Meso for not being firm enough on their Yun stance.
Restates belief in tie thing, and also states a higher scum read on Meso than Yun. This is their last major post for Day 3, and up until now as they haven't posted Day 4 yet.

Spoiler: Quantum/Pawn

At the end of D1, QT lets known their slight suspicion against Rosen but feels Zaelix is not their teammate if Rosen is scum. They ultimately vote Yun to avoid creating a 4-way tie.

This is about Cyricubed finding Shadell to have noticeably changed their play-pattern between Day 1 and 2, with QT saying they disagree with that premise but find the conclusion of Shadell being suspicious to be agreeable.
Responds that being inactive scum is something QT has done in the past, but disclaims about it being something they are doing here.
After being pushed by Yun to make a firm stance, they continue their previous suspicions of Rosen.
Day 3, and last reads before subbing to Pawn.
Gives that they believe that Shalmoa is scum despite coming to the conclusion in a way different from Yun, with a potential teammate of Cyricubed, Mesonoxian, or Hobo.

Disregards that Yun is necessarily scum because they seem to view Shalmoa as a higher read, and doesn't read Yun, Shadell, or Pyrros (me), as on a team with Shalmoa. This is before I made my "reads" post that got almost everyone but Yun to start light-scum reading me.


Argument for scum Shalmoa following up the post to Yun about scum Shalmoa.
NAI advice for Shalmoa followed by an explanation for why they don't foresee a team read of Shadell, Yun, or Pyrros with a scum Shalmoa.
Their reads (which are now after my "reads" post). The most notable thing is nulling Shalmoa after looking deeper into everyone's post, for reason of being lower priority in outcomes compared to a Mesonoxian read.
Primarily just a restate that they believe Shadell has been acting overwhelmingly Towny to the point of feeling odd. He still reads her as Town though since a scum wouldn't have to commit to that extent.
States Cyricubed's pokings are NAI from a game theory perspective, and then restates his scum read on Meso, Yun, and Pyrros.
Disputes Hobo's tie tactic.
Responds to Shadell asking about intact reads, and offers a hypothesis for Shalmoa's death N3. Says IH is a bit townier in his eyes due to handling of EoD3.
Disagrees with the assertion that Yun flipping Town clears the suspicion off of Mesonoxian. For context, Shadell asserted that most of the scumminess coming from Mesonoxian was that it seemed like he was covering for Scum Yun.

Gives disagreement on Shadell's read that Hobo's EoD3 was bad, but agrees that I am scummy for lack of activity and having odd reads.
Pushes about Pyrros's (me) potential scumminess by posing two questions on two posts from me and Scia.
Mostly just a breakdown of his various reads, past and present, and how they related to the two scum hiding among us.

Sorry for the delay. I always leave editing and proofreading as the last task since it's more tedious to do it by individual post or module. I hope this is helpful. Do please tell me if you find any glitches, or if I missed anything.

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Cyricubed said:

Sorta a can't have one without the other, but it boils down to the suspicions being forced. And it still does to an extent. It's hyper focusing on one detail and ignoring the rest/ the player's standard metric. I have to regrab my quotes but my current thought process is IH is Scum. As for their teammate I'm certain it's between you or shadell, but I'd rather take that 50/50 with my thoughts at EoD.

Now going down to the night kill I feel it was between Me and Pawn. While I'm sad Pawn got killed over me I suppose I'll be the savior. Okay meme joke over I think Pawn was killed for two reasons: 1- To attempt to make conversation be monofocused on the veterans today, and 2- To make people more certain of their reads, or specifically their town reads. Now I did Iso's on both Slots and the players in the slots. The constant read I was getting strangly TMI posts from IH along with constant move against the lynch flow feeling. I can put up points later when I re-find the quotes but yet. Sunday so I can't be super active but I am here ish.

Again. We are in LyLo. a Single town not voting at scum is grounds for scum to win as ties are No Lynch's.

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Shadell said:

Building this out, the Zaea kill happened N2, after Nictis, -Rosen and Happerry were dead, so the players besides Zae were:

1. @Cyricubed
2. @mesonoxian
3. @Yun Bob the Trouser Mimic, [Exiled to the Dungeon] d3.
4. @Shalmoa Cynthia the Mimic Mimic, [Murdered in the Night] n3.
5. @OriginalName replaced by @InterstellarHobo d2.
6. @QTesseract
7. @Shadell
8. @Scia

Meso's been scumread all game, making them an unlikely NK target (and thus have little need to randomize a kill to hit whoever), Yun, Shalmoa and Ori are all confirmed town (and thus not responsible). QT was inactive, so also not a high NK priority likely. IH had just subbed in, and would probably be extended some leniency.

So, that really leaves me, Scia and Cyri as players I'd expect to have been hit before Zaea. Of these, my read of the situation is that Cyri and I have more experience, were more actively townread at that time and would also have been seen as a bigger threat.

As I know I'm town, I think the Zaea kill actually is fairly incriminating for Cyricubed, as Cyri's the only remaining unknown who stood to gain if scum at this point.

So, what else has Cyri done that's scummy?

D4 was the shortest/easiest day to examine. This is a solid post, but most of Cyri's other D4 posts are throwing near random questions at people and doing nothing with the feedback. It's possible Cyri was lost as I was, but I also don't like that these are very theoryless posts. OTOH, the thread was dead. Overall, I think I could see scum-Cyri doing

D3 again had a lot of fairly low effort questioning of others that doesn't really feel like it builds to much. Cyri jumps on the Yun wagon early (though everyone kinda did) and I get the impression of either scum trying to look proactive or town casting around for a theory. Very consistent with D4, but not clearing. Pawn's entry into the thread brought a lot more structure to the Day and really helped clean things up, and I think this post from Pyrros is interesting, but more on that

D2 is probably the towniest Day. Cyri spends a lot of time responding to Yun, who gets progressively more defensive and tunnels on Cyri in response. Cyri's also got early consistent scumreads on both Meso and Yun that endure. OTOH, Cyri admits to backing off a scumread to vote on Happerry in a way that I don't really like in retrospect, and also a lot of this seems more like a scummy-looking Yun accidentally hand

D1 is interesting. As of 148 I was suspecting Cyri. here Cyri kinda talked up a big idea earlyish in the Day, but then dropped it for no reasons. That, again matches the idea of a scum player trying to look towny by doing towny plans and not relaly working out the internal core of genuine town logic, in contrast to genuine town doing towny things by virtue of following an internal town process. 328 has some posts that I think aren't great either and reads like some massive hedging combined with a vote against Cyri's own reads. EoD is something a lot of people cleared Cyri for, with an early swap onto the Happerry wagon that Cyri... didn't really justify. It felt cleaner than the late joiners, but it's not as good as I thought at the time.

Overall then, Cyri feels... okay, which is something that feels off at this point. They've had a few persistent scumreads (Meso, Yun) but spent a huge proportion of their time doing stuff that feels more like activity to look active rather than activity to be active, and I haven't felt strong pushes from them to really act on those reads, rather than throwing them out and being willing to hop off when others have joined the read. Add in that Cyri's the only real player I think had motive to NK Zaea and I think there's a fair case for Cyriscum to be made here.

If so, Pyrros stands out as a possible teammate due mostly to the quoted post where a lot of very vague, waffly reads are paired with a very concrete statement on Cyri that sets off alarm bells.

OTOH, I could see Meso as a partner as well, with the read on Meso being a dedicated strategy of distancing.

Not voting yet, because I want responses to this, and I want to build similar profiles on IH and Meso.

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