OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
We've got Cursebearer level mental defenses making that significantly less likely here though.
Edit: Here's the exact words for curious parties lifted from our charsheet.
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A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
We've got Cursebearer level mental defenses making that significantly less likely here though.
Edit: Here's the exact words for curious parties lifted from our charsheet.
I think the problem is that the mental damage wouldn't be from an outside source, but self-inflicted. The memories we have received are ours now, so is the decision to not identify with them.
I don't think Cursebearer stuff protects from self-mutilation, making bad decisions or other such things...
Edit:For example, if we resisted taking the memories in the first place, that's one thing. Voluntarily diving into the spirit of the sword, fishing out the memories and then regretting it, is another.
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First I don't really count praxis as pure sword and I too am very much for refinement of place. Second, while not all sword picks are direct offensive stuff, for the most part they are and beyond that they tend to focus on increasing our martial power even when they are not just straight sword picks and taking them exclusively makes martial options more attractive. While there are different flavors of sword picks it is pretty much all martial warrior save for a few conjunction so advancements and some other stuff, and I like seeing ring magic or cloak shininess or our surge or perhaps eventually even our soul evocation more than only different flavors or sword if interesting ones. I know that our task will require both martial and non-martial options, I would like to be adequately prepared for both than over prepared for one and underprepared for the other (also our direct power consists of more than just sword options so there's that). I am also worried that an attitude that takes the sword as the ideal solution to everything will, well, take the sword as an ideal solution even in places where a diplomatic solution would be more interesting. Since this is about Hunger's attitude to mental contamination and that effects Hunger's thought process about what options to use in a given situation I do feel it is not a ridiculous concern to worry that as mental contamination increases that propensity to use force in place of diplomacy might also increase though admittedly I cannot say how an attitude like to that of be forbear would regard diplomacy with people not as threatening as ur mother.
I do not want to skip combat I just would like to have a skill set that would let other options be something we might plausibly choose when they come up because we recently had a choice to Potentially go into a situation in a non martial war and guess what we chose the martial way because we had focused our picks on martial power.
Also you example of dreadnought falls flat to me because it is pretty much just more martial power with potentially better magic talent tacked on that we really would not ever use if we stuck exclusively to sword picks. It seems like a non sword pick now that we have take. Surge crafting and the signs and praxis and blood stuff and whatever else we are looking at in the future but without that it is really hard to say it is much beyond making us tankier and giving us more endurance thus better in a fight.
To put it plainly I am not objecting to sword picks, just the idea that somehow there is enough variety in sword to solve all our problems. I am not objecting to more combat and martial choices, just I would like to have a skill set that allows for other options or opens them up where we might otherwise Not see them. That we might consider such choices as or even more viable than just swording at all our problems.
Last, how do we know that the forbear is just saving worlds because that is what he does at this point. Inertia does not trend to what is easiest, only to the current state of things. While you do have a good point, I still think I can be just as easily attributed to inertial as such an immense and unchanging will seems much the same as an unbreakable inertial to me. My point regarding that was more about the problems inherent in extreme attitudes like that the forbear displays than about the actual nature of said attitude, though I did go into a lot of detail because I like that interpretation and am thus biased towards it.
Just one more question, Is what the forbear does really saving worlds? Because I am not sure I can quite see it like that. While he does leave worlds unquestionable better, in this example, the one we have, it looks more like he rebuilt the world after it got destroyed in part because he provoked the ur mother though fault definitely falls upon her as she did do the destroying and she did not have to. Still could he not have listens? Could he not have tried harder to avoid what came about if he had such immense power? Might things have not gone differently had he been just a little more flexible? I am left we these questions, perhaps as a result of my biases, and certainly the context of this choices has made me think on this more than I otherwise might have. So, I Feel have to argue that looking beyond the sword and what it gives is what are not to do.
I may still switch to fine though cause the sword is still cool, I just don't want it to swallow Hunger's narrative.
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- Location
- a place
It's really hard to take the claims that the Forebear was definitely going to be memetically hazarded by the Ur-Mother if he kept letting her speak at face value. I know I keep reiterating this but they had a conversation where he could understand her, he even replied to her. If she was going to or could mind whammy him, she would have done so. It's not like their's any real moral weight to doing so other then potentially gaining some new information on the procession, nothing she did seemed capable of hindering him from doing whatever he wanted to her or the rest of the universe. Her best efforts amounted to giving him a power up. I'm not really seeing the huge benefit there from adopting the same diplomatic policy as Genghis Khan from that one interaction.
Anyway, this bit of the blurb seems fairly clear to me that the inverse, embracing the path of the Forebear mean's relying more on swordplay and less on magecraft, diplomacy, or even having less of a willingness to even give opponents the chance to converse with him. We can quibble about degrees all we want here, but considering how huge a bonus the Never Better praxis boost is as a incentive compared to a 1 arete discount and the fact that this is a explicit characterization vote, I don't think it's exactly reaching to expect the difference between outcomes in each of these votes winning to be somewhat severe.
Anyway, this bit of the blurb seems fairly clear to me that the inverse, embracing the path of the Forebear mean's relying more on swordplay and less on magecraft, diplomacy, or even having less of a willingness to even give opponents the chance to converse with him. We can quibble about degrees all we want here, but considering how huge a bonus the Never Better praxis boost is as a incentive compared to a 1 arete discount and the fact that this is a explicit characterization vote, I don't think it's exactly reaching to expect the difference between outcomes in each of these votes winning to be somewhat severe.
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As for those who argue that reliance on martial matters means less reliance on magic, I direct you to some counterarguments.
First, the extra Rank in military matters that OaF gives is Rank useful in combat or war, what you wage war with is completely irrelevant.
Second, the Dreadnaught's Bearing-Rune King advancement in itself is non-sword based, and explicitly nearly (absolutely?) the best mage power multiplier.
And third, the Power of Ruin and how the Forebear conceptualized the All-Defeating Stance, that Ruin and power "Perhaps there was more to the cut than a blade's edge, if body and essence could be arranged so profitably." Arranging the essence in a particular pattern to derive supernatural effects, the basis to what I would call nearly any self-derived magic system, and this is ONLY All-Defeating Stance.
I don't really believe the Stances or the Magic advancements end at a mere 1000th or so world in the Procession.
First, the extra Rank in military matters that OaF gives is Rank useful in combat or war, what you wage war with is completely irrelevant.
Second, the Dreadnaught's Bearing-Rune King advancement in itself is non-sword based, and explicitly nearly (absolutely?) the best mage power multiplier.
And third, the Power of Ruin and how the Forebear conceptualized the All-Defeating Stance, that Ruin and power "Perhaps there was more to the cut than a blade's edge, if body and essence could be arranged so profitably." Arranging the essence in a particular pattern to derive supernatural effects, the basis to what I would call nearly any self-derived magic system, and this is ONLY All-Defeating Stance.
I don't really believe the Stances or the Magic advancements end at a mere 1000th or so world in the Procession.
Tyrant_Rayne
Probably Not Evil… Maybe
- Location
- Canada
Now one of the reasons people are voting for just a moment is to the ability to develop a characterization differs from that of the Forebear. But the thing is that it doesn't actually change it right away. All it offers us the ability to develop however we want. Fine does this too but the difference is that it doesn't outright condemn martial methods. However regardless of these choices do keep in mind the decisions we already made. We are reckless, greedy, cool-headed, and off to fight a monster the size of a continent. Our choices so far have been very clearly martial in nature. While just a moment may open up other opportunities that is all they are, opportunities. It will mean nothing if we just go ahead and choose to kill shit anyways. We have been walking the martial path for a long time now and convincing the majority of the thred to switch tactics this late in the game will be very difficult. I'm not saying it's impossible but for those voting just a moment keep in mind that this will be an uphill struggle.
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I never argued that it would lead to less reliance on magic, just that it would lead to more reliance on the use of force, of martial might in situations where we would be better served not doing that. That it would lead to more martial paths when other ways are available. That it would lead to less other options and more forbear. And that I don't like the idea of Hunger absorbing more of the admittedly cool attitude and personality of the forbear because I feel it does not mesh too well with his situation.
Forebear confirmed to have been Murkidan the whole time. Such edge...
[X] "Never better."
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]
Sure. Were basically the Forebear again but we have friends. We need friends. If it ever comes up again you guys gotta vote to take our friends with us or Hunger is gonna be miserable
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]
Sure. Were basically the Forebear again but we have friends. We need friends. If it ever comes up again you guys gotta vote to take our friends with us or Hunger is gonna be miserable
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
[X] "Fine."
The Forebear was probably correct to do what he did. What is appropriate for the Forebear, is not so for Hunger. Our circumstances differ, our perspectives differ, our capabilities differ. Mechanical considerations hardly factor here. Although I guess some view this as the path of milquetoast compromise, my view is that it's also the most accurate.
The lessons of a king's are not that of sage's, are not that of a cursebearer's.
Never Better is also fine, since it does mean more exciting SORD fight scenes. I worry we may be tapping out that well, though. We'll cross that road when we come to it.
[X] Pinnacle
Mental attributes don't make getting Hunger Picks harder, because they don't improve combat efficacy directly. Therefore, Pinnacle.
The Forebear was probably correct to do what he did. What is appropriate for the Forebear, is not so for Hunger. Our circumstances differ, our perspectives differ, our capabilities differ. Mechanical considerations hardly factor here. Although I guess some view this as the path of milquetoast compromise, my view is that it's also the most accurate.
The lessons of a king's are not that of sage's, are not that of a cursebearer's.
Never Better is also fine, since it does mean more exciting SORD fight scenes. I worry we may be tapping out that well, though. We'll cross that road when we come to it.
[X] Pinnacle
Mental attributes don't make getting Hunger Picks harder, because they don't improve combat efficacy directly. Therefore, Pinnacle.
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- Location
- Earth
[X] "Fine."
[X] Overwhelm
[X] Whiteout [7 Arete]
[X] Overwhelm
[X] Whiteout [7 Arete]
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Something I realized about spending more Arete on Conclusion. Considering we've got an adversary with Cursebearer level scaling, taking conclusion before that adversary is dead reduces our ability to keep up with them. If you're saving for Decimator's mitigation, you may want to reconsider.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
[X] "Just a moment."
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]
Why shackle yourself to the misery and deprivation of the Forebear's path when you can become the living embodiment of the expanding brain meme instead! (Also i guess finding joy and fulfillment in helping others and having friends is good i guess)
[X] Pinnacle
[X] Pristine [7 Arete]
Why shackle yourself to the misery and deprivation of the Forebear's path when you can become the living embodiment of the expanding brain meme instead! (Also i guess finding joy and fulfillment in helping others and having friends is good i guess)
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I don't think 7 Arete is worth the benefits of the current options.
Not gonna say SAVE and pretend some virtuous desire to avoid proliferate spending.
...thread, you know our stats are currently lacking behind Rank right? Pick Overwhelm to at least mitigate the issue. Are we seriously going for +5 Willpower(it is good, but not that good) and +1 Int rather than power. Fish is a 3-pick fight and still carries some risk of Dying. Vote Overwhelm (plus Whiteout) and show that fish that Ruin comes to all.
[X] "Never better."
[X] Overwhelm
[X] Whiteout [7 Arete]
Magical_Duck
The One Who Quacks
- Location
- A Pond
- Pronouns
- Duck
[X] "Never better."
[X] Overwhelm
[X] Whiteout [7 Arete]
"Quack"
[X] Overwhelm
[X] Whiteout [7 Arete]
"Quack"
- Location
- Pindorama
Man, RIP "Fine", trapped between two extremes. It's literally the perfect compromise option as it basically lets us carry on like normal. You should at least approval vote it if you are okay with it; given the stakes this vote has on Hunger's characterization it's better to reach compromise than to be stuck with an option you find unpalatable!
- Location
- Vestiges of Yesterday
[x] "Just a moment"
It's just like us to turn a characterization-focused vote into a powerlevel one. All in all, I am not interested in reading about a character taking "Cut through" as a default option in his everyday behavior. That kind of personality, if taken further like "Never better" implies, takes away all the fulfilling pleasant character interaction moments in the interim of escalation and powergrind highlights, making the rest much more dull as a consequence.
What reason would Forebear have to banter with Gisena? Better to go Study the Blade, every time.
It's just like us to turn a characterization-focused vote into a powerlevel one. All in all, I am not interested in reading about a character taking "Cut through" as a default option in his everyday behavior. That kind of personality, if taken further like "Never better" implies, takes away all the fulfilling pleasant character interaction moments in the interim of escalation and powergrind highlights, making the rest much more dull as a consequence.
What reason would Forebear have to banter with Gisena? Better to go Study the Blade, every time.
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HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
So, the vote. I really, really, really hated Uttermost, despite all the legitimately cool things about it, and that's definitely flavoring my view of this one.
(Separately, I think Uttermost was a bad offer on a Doylist level, because it made Fell-Handed Stroke disappear from the narrative and FHS was cool. It's laundry list of drawbacks sort of read like an attempt to balance an effect Rihaku wasn't entirely comfortable with, but considered too cool not to offer? Not sure on that one.)
Orm is totally right about mechanical incentives here; they say "Be more like the second-strongest person you've ever seen, and you'll be stronger!" And... I do understand the appeal of being stronger. Especially on the road to Vengeance.
But. I would really like to reverse the "can't mitigate Tyrant" drawback from Uttermost. And [ ] "Just a moment." looks like it might well offer that.
I think, though, a lot of the problem is that none of the options expressed is really representative of my views on the Forebear we saw. My thinking feels like a combination of Fine and Just A Moment, but on reflection it's got bits of Never Better as well:
*He was the best person he knew how to be.
*Who that was wasn't very good for him or anyone else. He may not have been cruel, but he was harsh.
*His experiences appear to have considerable relevance to our quest, at very least by the symmetries we've been seeing. So, Forebear Lore good.
*His methods, as a man who seems to have been almost nothing but methods, are a very bad idea to adopt wholeheartedly.
As such, I would like to submit a write-in. Is this valid, @Rihaku?
[X] "I'm not sure." - The Forebear was admirable in some ways, horrific in others, and through it all: familiar. Were he put in the same position, Hunger is unsure he could do better. But he also isn't sure he couldn't.
*Hunger will dedicate some time to evaluating his mindset and long-term trajectory. When that happens, will provide a chance to revise his philosophy of rule. May unlock contamination-reducing advancements.
*Does not change Hunger's attitude toward the majority of Blade advancements.
*When conflicted, it makes sense to get some distance. Think it over. Kill a fish.
(Separately, I think Uttermost was a bad offer on a Doylist level, because it made Fell-Handed Stroke disappear from the narrative and FHS was cool. It's laundry list of drawbacks sort of read like an attempt to balance an effect Rihaku wasn't entirely comfortable with, but considered too cool not to offer? Not sure on that one.)
Orm is totally right about mechanical incentives here; they say "Be more like the second-strongest person you've ever seen, and you'll be stronger!" And... I do understand the appeal of being stronger. Especially on the road to Vengeance.
But. I would really like to reverse the "can't mitigate Tyrant" drawback from Uttermost. And [ ] "Just a moment." looks like it might well offer that.
I think, though, a lot of the problem is that none of the options expressed is really representative of my views on the Forebear we saw. My thinking feels like a combination of Fine and Just A Moment, but on reflection it's got bits of Never Better as well:
*He was the best person he knew how to be.
*Who that was wasn't very good for him or anyone else. He may not have been cruel, but he was harsh.
*His experiences appear to have considerable relevance to our quest, at very least by the symmetries we've been seeing. So, Forebear Lore good.
*His methods, as a man who seems to have been almost nothing but methods, are a very bad idea to adopt wholeheartedly.
As such, I would like to submit a write-in. Is this valid, @Rihaku?
[X] "I'm not sure." - The Forebear was admirable in some ways, horrific in others, and through it all: familiar. Were he put in the same position, Hunger is unsure he could do better. But he also isn't sure he couldn't.
*Hunger will dedicate some time to evaluating his mindset and long-term trajectory. When that happens, will provide a chance to revise his philosophy of rule. May unlock contamination-reducing advancements.
*Does not change Hunger's attitude toward the majority of Blade advancements.
*When conflicted, it makes sense to get some distance. Think it over. Kill a fish.
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- Location
- Earth
If we can get confirmation that this write in is valid, I think I'm willing to back you up with a vote! Though I suppose rihaku would have to figure out what mechanical benefits or drawbacks come out of it, if any?
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I'm willing to back this route if it's a valid write-in.
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In unrelated territory...
We should be able to heal our injuries(Eye, Liver, Lung) in the near future given our current rank(It's only a question of whether or not we need to vote to spend the time to do it or if Hunger will do it automatically). Having our second eye back will presumably improve our efficacy with ranged attacks from gaining depth perception(Will we get 2 Wits and 1 Charisma from it though as if we had taken Sharp of Eye back in the day though?). It's also possible we'll have more Praxis endurance after doing so from having more self to give. So why not reinforce our metaphysical self as much as possible?
From the Ageless Hour:
When this was written we were only able to pull off three Refinements of Quickness before needing to recover. Now we can do 12. If Pristine wins we'll be able to do 15. The endurance benefit also applies to Artful Thorn, our primary weapon against the Armament Fish.
What I'm going for though is that we'll be able to use Refinement of Place in serious fights as a battlefield control technique, teleporting enemies and their attacks for shenanigans. Given that we would have 13.05(AKA 9*1.45) intelligence and 4.6(AKA 4*1.15) wisdom after buffs if Refinement of Place won, Hunger should be able to pull a massive amount of shenanigans.
Refinement of Place is also a source of interplanetary travel options. It can bring us to the Astral Realm. Human Sphere ships use the astral realm as their shortcut/FTL substitute. We wouldn't even necessarily have to get enough Praxis endurance for interplanetary travel.