Seriously, when it comes to Form of Rage; 1 Pick= 1 Arete. If we don't need Rage, we get to benefit from the extra pick. If we do need it, we haven't lost anything.
We have lost something, we become tired and perhaps Exhausted if we were already tired. Also probable bad mental side effects. FOR is something better used as little as possible.

Have you forgotten how fucking weak we become with exhausted or even tired? If we become that without an appropriate increase in power (That 7 Arete option would allow), we are beyond fucked.

All I am asking here is to have some patience and not solely depend on fanwork to save our ass.
 
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...Also, why are you always drawn by power options that require us get closer to death? I'd find that rather concerning.

I'm really not. I just think the Form Tree is rad and I pushed heavily for Rage because I was worried we wouldn't get it otherwise. After taking a Second Form, you better commit and see it through till the end or you wouldn't be able to say "This isn't even my Final Form!". If you can't do that much, what's even the point? Moreover, having a Second Form that's roughly the same level of strength as your first form is unimaginably lame.
 
We have lost something, we become tired and perhaps Exhausted if we were already tired. Also probable bad mental side effects. FOR is something better used as little as possible.

Have you forgotten how fucking weak we become with exhausted or even tired? If we become that without an appropriate increase in power (That 7 Arete option would allow), we are beyond fucked.

All I am asking here is to have some patience and not solely depend on fanwork to save our ass.
I'm honestly extremely confused how that relates to this decision.

I'm really not. I just think the Form Tree is rad and I pushed heavily for Rage because I was worried we wouldn't get it otherwise. After taking a Second Form, you better commit and see it through till the end or you wouldn't be able to say "This isn't even my Final Form!". If you can't do that much, what's even the point? Moreover, having a Second Form that's roughly the same level of strength as your first form is unimaginably lame.
I... do not understand that line of thought at all. Oh well, I don't have to.
 
Like, let me put this argument cleanly:

If the next fight we get a Progress vote on doesn't have a 7 Arete pick:
- If we choose Wait, the extra Arete just sits there and doesn't do anything.
- If had the extra pick, we'd get three stat plusses at least, or we could maybe even get the significantly stronger 2-picks or 3-picks.

If the next fight we get a Progress vote on we triggers form of Rage and so has 7 Arete options:
- If we choose Wait, everything's fine.
- If we have the extra pick, we can just spend it in place of the Arete Rage takes, effectively replacing it. Sacrifice Echo then take another Echo for the extra pick, for example. Or, we could take the hit in our Echoes in favor of the extremely powerful 3-picks or maybe even 4-picks such an enemy can give us. Would you really not sacrifice an Echo to get Stranglethorn, for example?

All in all, I think an extra pick is way, way better in this situation. Literally the same rewards on the worst case, with the potential to take better stuff. It's a no brainer for me.

We have lost something, we become tired and perhaps Exhausted if we were already tired. Also probable bad mental side effects. FOR is something better used as little as possible.

Have you forgotten how fucking weak we become with exhausted or even tired? If we become that without an appropriate increase in power (That 7 Arete option would allow), we are beyond fucked.

All I am asking here is to have some patience and not solely depend on fanwork to save our ass.

??? We get exhausted no matter what. Spending Arete or spending a pick doesn't change that; we'd likely have to retreat anyway.
 
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If the next fight we get a Progress vote on we triggers form of Rage and so has 7 Arete options:
- If we choose Wait, everything's fine.
- If we have the extra pick, we can just spend it in place of the Arete Rage takes, effectively replacing it. Sacrifice Echo then take another Echo for the extra pick, for example. Or, we could take the hit in our Echoes in favor of the extremely powerful 3-picks or maybe even 4-picks such an enemy can give us. Would you really not sacrifice an Echo to get Stranglethorn, for example?
Agree, but what could we do for the Tired condition at that point? Do we have a fast way of removing that debuff?

Edit: think I understood why it wouldn't matter at that point. Even if we choose to Wait we still have to roll on the encounter table and so we'd have an equal chance of having to trigger Form of Rage... but wouldn't Pick of Stragglers have higher risks of encountering a strong enemy since we would be moving around the dungeon?
 
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The very rough plan is:

- Get +1 Arete from Wait and Hope, which takes us to 5.25 Arete and hopefully to 7 arete with some effort before grinding starts. This might not be possible if we start grinding right away.
- Vote to start hunting isolated mooks to give us that sweet experience in the next update.
- When we are inveitably set upon by an very strong enemy in this place, use FOR and win.
- Use the resulting Picks to get an 7 arete option that doesn't require picks (optional) and spend experience on a 3-4 pick option that hopefully synergizes with the arete power.
- This results in an explosive increase in strength that makes us strong enough that we are not very vulnerable despite Tired or Exhausted so we can safely retreat to an safe place without getting killed in an ambush or the like.
- Rest untill Exhausted is removed and start snowballing.

Is this more clear?
 
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A non-Wait and Hope plan basically requires that content creators write 2.75 Arete worth of omakes, which, IMO, is pretty unreasonable.
 
[X] Wait and Hope
[X] Peerless Shroud

I feel a return to tactical and strategic naps is in order, and what better to synergize with our totally intentional sloth than a comfy blanket upgrade!

I also like arete. I'm lazy and don't generate enough of it, so options that solve that problem for me are swell.
 
A non-Wait and Hope plan basically requires that content creators write 2.75 Arete worth of omakes, which, IMO, is pretty unreasonable.
Our next Hunger proc is likely going to be in the update after the next one so we'll likely get that much in two days. Getting Wait and one of 2AP option is really pushing it, but it's still somewhat doable if we get another Arete pick.
 
It occurs to me that, since Second Stage was a 2 Arete option, and Form of Rage was 7 Arete, Final Form is likely to be a 25 Arete option, which is to say that we will probably never manage to buy it, but it should be pretty great.
 
If we are planning to hunt mooks for exp, we can do so right now! Both picks and Arete improve substantially after certain thresholds; but only Arete can be direct generated by thread. So, if we want to maximize our capabilities, we should get the extra pick here.
A non-Wait and Hope plan basically requires that content creators write 2.75 Arete worth of omakes, which, IMO, is pretty unreasonable.
- If we have the extra pick, we can just spend it in place of the Arete Rage takes, effectively replacing it.
In the worst case scenario, the two are equally distant from the 7-pick. If we generate enough Arete anyway or don't face an enemy worth a 7-pick, then it's better. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.
 
If we are planning to hunt mooks for exp, we can do so right now! Both picks and Arete improve substantially after certain thresholds; but only Arete can be direct generated by thread. So, if we want to maximize our capabilities, we should get the extra pick here.


In the worst case scenario, the two are equally distant from the 7-pick. If we generate enough Arete anyway or don't face an enemy worth a 7-pick, then it's better. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.
If we generate 0.75 Arete, then with Stragglers we can't select a 7 Arete option at all. With 1.75 it requires Arete debt (very bad). Only at 2.75 onwards does the situation you posit appear superior.

So... no.

And relying on the thread to Aretespam our way to victory just sits very wrongly with me.
 
The very rough plan is:

- Get +1 Arete from Wait and Hope, which takes us to 5.25 Arete and hopefully to 7 arete with some effort before grinding starts. This might not be possible if we start grinding right away.
- Vote to start hunting isolated mooks to give us that sweet experience in the next update.
- When we are inveitably set upon by an very strong enemy in this place, use FOR and win.
- Use the resulting Picks to get an 7 arete option that doesn't require picks (optional) and spend experience on a 3-4 pick option that hopefully synergizes with the arete power.
- This results in an explosive increase in strength that makes us strong enough that we are not very vulnerable despite Tired or Exhausted so we can safely retreat to an safe place without getting killed in an ambush or the like.
- Rest untill Exhausted is removed and start snowballing.

Is this more clear?
Clear enough, with the number of plans happening at once (and not understanding the mechanics yet) this summaries sure are useful! I do like the plan, still I'll be waiting a bit to see whether to change vote, prob after vote tally, since my main interest is to avoid we go Vanquish with just Brute Force (tactical voting may be necessary).
 
So there's apparently beings in the temple that we can encounter that even Form of Rage with it's triple everything and cost would just lose against right now. Good to know. Let's generate Arete, see if we can resupply/contact our buddies (that adventurer encampment is probably made up of people bound by the false moons call now that I think about it. And that means they got out even if they can't abandon the quest.), and build up for the next big 7 option so we can use it while Rage forming.

[X] Wait and Hope
[X] Brute Force
 
If we generate 0.75 Arete, then with Stragglers we can't select a 7 Arete option at all. With 1.75 it requires Arete debt (very bad). Only at 2.75 onwards does the situation you posit appear superior.

So... no.

And relying on the thread to Aretespam our way to victory just sits very wrongly with me.
???

Taking this quote into account:
You do have Form of Rage now, so if you meditate and get the Arete, you'd be close to 7.
Let's say we have 5.9. If take Wait, we'd basically get seven. We'd still need to generate one extra Arete for Form of Rage, unless we want to lose our advancement. If we don't face an enemy with a valid 7 Arete pick, the Arete just sits there.

Now, if we take the pick, we'd still have 5.9 Arete. If generate one more, we can give up the extra pick to be in the same situation as above. If we generate 2 more, we'd benefit from the pick. If the next enemy we face doesn't have a 7 Arete option, we'd benefit from the pick. And that's not taking into account that much like Arete, picks get better the more you have. Losing an Echo to get enough picks for Stranglethorn is totally worth it, for example.

So again, the worst case is no worse than Wait's best case, with the potential for significantly more. That's why it's so good.
 
It's perhaps obvious, but pick+ is a quantitative upgrade and not a qualitative one. It doesn't improve two pick proc into three pick one(so not unique three pick options etc) but it allows you to pick more from two option picks(which pretty much translates to another Echo or Opalescence).

Or maybe it does and we could get mythical 6 pick upgrade, who knows.

That aside, people shouldn't be cavalier with the risks. It's quite easy to fuck up, get injured, have to pop FOR and suddenly you have wasted four days stabilizing while safer build had much smoother growth curve and is in much better place. We picked the Quickest Route so we have time to spare, and doing better in dungeon handily beats getting out sooner. Feel free to take your time.

Current winning build is Pickoff plus Brute Force which is kinda fine. No Arete expenditure, somewhat risky, but overall doable and with good value.
 
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Bright Vanquisher wins due to truly overwhelming amounts of omake power.
This line killed all my motivation for arguing. Being a shitty writer and bad at writing reactions, I thought it'd be fine if I just argued at full strength. Hearing that despite a vote lead and at last notice superior argument power Immortal Regiment still lost after making it through days worth of consolidation to a build I considered the worst of our options was incredibly depressing. Feels bad man.

I mean I know every vote has to have a winner and a loser and I think on balance this system is better than standard voting, at least with the traditional system you know exactly how you lost.
 
I... do not understand that line of thought at all. Oh well, I don't have to.

I'll try explain the lens through which I see this quest anyway, if only to make sure I'm not too sleep deprived to function.

On one level of this quest, we're trying to win this quest in some way. This is where appealing to risk-reward comes from and debating endlessly over the optimal strategy. You can tell someone is focusing on this if they start throwing the word synergy around like it owed them money. It's fun and also a necessary component of these games, even if it can get a bit tiresome and heated at times.

On another level of this quest, we're looking to see stuff we like happen. This is largely a matter of preference and doesn't actually have too much impact on the first layer since pretty much all options are viable individually, the only problem is tactics and coordination. This is where you get appeals to coolness and heroism, especially when your chosen option is risky or otherwise imprudent.

I'm sure you get all this stuff since I think this is how most people see it, even if they have different tastes or weigh the value of the levels differently. My preference for the Form Tree is almost entirely a second level thing and even then only if we work seriously towards it. That's because I like the idea of being a JRPG/Dragon Ball Z villain, especially considering how well the rest of our character suits it.

Now, this becomes an issue if we only dabble in the Form Tree because dabbling just makes it a weird protrusion on our character sheet that doesn't properly interface with anything. It's just "also, when you kill us we turn into a ghost and can fight again". This doesn't tie into Hunger's legend or characteristics very much, which makes it lame and messy. It becomes even lamer when you realise that the Second Form isn't actually stronger than the First, so it's literally just an extra healthbar with some different mechanics.

However, when you add Form of Rage, suddenly you've become a good ol' fashion three stage boss fight. There's furloughs of material to draw upon there, especially considering our set up. Just imagine it, the Devouring Tyrant is conquering the Human Sphere and your ragtag band of teenagers are the only ones that can stop him. Now that's a JRPG I wanna play. Plus, it would be really cool to have the shoe be on the other foot.

And so you need to have at least three. That way, after you've transformed into your Second Form, even if the Heroes still manage to match you through their desperate, lifeburning power ups, you can just announce "But this isn't even my Final Form!" and laugh at their despair. There's a good scene and might really work for Hunger if it's the prelude to convincing them to surrender. This can't happen if we only have a Second Form, especially if it doesn't raise the tension by making you even more powerful.

Now, ideally we'd actually get Final Form because that would complete the look and now I'm desperately curious. But as long as we have Rage and purchase an upgrade to the Second, I'll be content. However, that doesn't mean I actually like the Second Form in and of itself. I thought it was just okay honestly but I'd have preferred What Rains May Come or Undying Vanguard. It's precisely the mehness that it has in isolation that made me fight so hard for Rage.

Of course I also talked about how useful it would be to have a trump card and other first level stuff and I genuinely do think that, I'm not being a liar or anything when I say that stuff. But ultimately, I was driven by second level considerations for this vote. I'm sure I'm not alone though. Haven't you ever felt that one option was just plain cooler than the others? Just more inspirational and entertaining and generally what you'd like to see in this quest? Because that's how I felt about having a Final Form.

I hope you can now see that it's really not about killing yourself for power to me.

It's about killing yourself for a e s t h e t i q u e
 
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