A Simple Transaction I

OctarineShrike · May 18, 2020

LordOfMurder said:
No intensify and hunger would be bad together because hunger basically means we only learn during battle which means we wouldn't know anything of the praxis until we were already fighting someone. I thought you could remove it because it mentioned you could give it to someone else but missed the line that says it can't be removed once you've worn it.

LordOfMurder said:
Intensify is actually great for sword because the Praxis can apparently do anything just at differing levels of difficultly.

Your talk of intensify and hunger is also a reason why they're bad together in conjunction with Sword, in addition to what I already said about how it intensifies our need to run and hide from early fights with sword even further. Reiterating, We're an old heavily injured veteran with no development in ANY magic system if sword+intensify wins. We gave up our youthful vigor, lost an arm, an eye, and part of our lung.

Shard · May 18, 2020

Is there a combination of Sword+Intensify that isn't suicide? It's appealing to my minimalist instincts.

Dark Lord Bob · May 18, 2020

LordOfMurder said:
Intensify is actually great for sword because the Praxis can apparently do anything just at differing levels of difficultly.

I don't know about anything (if you've got some quotes to that effect I'd be interested) but we have seen some indications it's not just a sword and shield.

Rihaku said:
Mm, the Praxis fares poorly at restoration and healing. Relative to its power in other domains, maybe you got the two mixed up? The Accursed made it to kill the fuck out of things and also for convenience.

Rihaku said:
For example, the Imperial Praxis could probably do it [Get Daoless].

Aabcehmu · May 18, 2020

Rihaku said:
What if you don't find anyone suitable to include in your Retinue? Conversely, Gisena or Catherine + Retinue would both be incredibly strong! Extremely fast scaling of a power highly specialized in nullifcation of things like Curses, or of a soldier with masterful combat skills who just needs superhuman stats to excel!

That is a strong point. Would anyone be interested in the broad gist of my scepter build, but swapping out Forbear's Blade for Gisena?

TwistedJester · May 18, 2020

[X] Plan Seven Seals for the Scarlet King
-[X] The King's Scepter
-[X] Seven Seals
-[X] Prolessarch [2 Remittances]
-[X] Retinue

Praxis and Scepter people pick Prolessarch and Retinue, remember Vault is basically a Instant Dungeon if you configure it that way.

Aabcehmu · May 18, 2020

Shard said:
Is there a combination of Sword+Intensify that isn't suicide? It's appealing to my minimalist instincts.

Retinue + Catherine would give us a modicum of short-term survivability.

Kurowari · May 18, 2020

[X] The Sword That Ends the World
[X] Accretion
[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
[X] Ceathlynn "Catherine" of Amarlt
[X] Retinue

Got to commit to the Praxis.

LordOfMurder · May 18, 2020

Conjured Blade said:
Your talk of intensify and hunger is also a reason why they're bad together in conjunction with Sword, in addition to what I already said about how it intensifies our need to run and hide from early fights with sword even further. Reiterating, We're an old heavily injured veteran with no development in ANY magic system if sword+intensify wins. We gave up our youthful vigor, lost an arm, an eye, and part of our lung.

Just take retinue and Gisena and get curse mitigation for Apopcryphal which is apparently the thing most likely to kill us while we powergrind with sword and intensify. Don't need bodyparts when you have unlimited power!

Dark Lord Bob said:
I don't know about anything (if you've got some quotes to that effect I'd be interested) but we have seen some indications it's not just a sword and shield.

Yeah it's not as good at some things but it can apparently still do them? Or at least I don't remember Rihaku ever saying there was something the Praxis couldn't achieve and since Intensify makes it easier to use presumably even the tricker parts of it will be within our grasp.

Genesys · May 18, 2020

If Relinquishment came initially charged, it would probably be a very strong pick?
With one week of free training, we could probably advance Praxis to a passable level. Unfortunately, that is probably not the case.
I can't support Sword with Intensify, since that increases odds of first-fight death.
Optimizing for (very) earlygame survival with Sword would probably include Forebear's Blade and Gisena, though a third pick would be tough. Since the second 1-Remittance companion is initially useless and requires force multiplication, Hunger nulls ability to prepare, and with Sword, Intensify nulls previous magic including Forebear's Blade, the choice would be between Talon, Relinquishment, and Favor. Since Favor at 1-remittance almost definitely can't be a Wish to save us, probably Talon, since it would allow resource acquisition without requiring social interaction. Though companions do mitigate social somewhat since they can buy things on our behalf and stuff. Relinquishment is good, but I'm not sure Sword can afford it.
[X] The Sword That Ends the World
[X] Accretion
[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
[X] Talon
[X] Forebear's Blade

Saidoro · May 18, 2020

I feel like there may be a build in taking sword + Accursed Favor * 3 so he'll put us somewhere we can survive long enough to grow, but I'm not confident enough in that to wager on it.

BrainInAJar · May 18, 2020

I don't want to seal the barest magical power we have just so we can get Praxis faster. The weakness of it is surviving the first encounters. There's no need to double down on that.

Nothing is more valuable in the long term than creating more Progression-types, even if baby ones; and more people means more bodies which means more safety. Even if they are barely superhuman, that's still a help, especially if we get Gisena to mitigate the Apocryphal Curse. We don't need anything else for Sword.

Safety in numbers is a saying for reason.

Genesys said:
Optimizing for (very) earlygame survival with Sword would probably include Forebear's Blade and Gisena, though a third pick would be tough.

Forebearer's blade doesn't give us initial power; it only starts having an effect once we start progressing.

Rihaku · May 18, 2020

LordOfMurder said:
Whoops misread the bit where it becomes unremovable once you wear it. Yeah that'd be bad. Retinue instead so we can get party members to fill in gaps in our specialization and to make Gisena stronk so she can remove more curse.

Or you could go the Full Mitigation build!

Gisena + Retinue + Hunger (given to Gisena)!

If only you'd have one more Lesser Remittance, you could get Relinquishment too!

BrainInAJar said:
[X] Plan Safety in Numbers
-[X] The Sword That Ends the World
-[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[X] Ceathlynn "Catherine" of Amarlt
-[X] Retinue
[X] Accretion
Get the most people with superhuman strength as possible, and gives them the benefit of Progression. Hopefully that gets us out of the hotzone quicker. Intensify is bad for Sword, we don't need to progress even faster. Hunger is also bad, we want to avoid fights in the early game.

Trying to bribe Sword voters with waifus, eh? I'm on to you, mister!

Shard said:
I assume the weeks of freedom can be 'stored' up?

Yup.

TwistedJester said:
Praxis and Scepter people pick Prolessarch and Retinue, remember Vault is basically a Instant Dungeon if you configure it that way.

Read Prolessarch's entry carefully...

Aabcehmu said:
Retinue + Catherine would give us a modicum of short-term survivability.

Mm... not really. Catherine doesn't come into her own until you get the resources to buff her somehow. Gisena technically has higher base physical stats, she just lacks Catherine's raw combat skill.

Saidoro said:
I feel like there may be a build in taking sword + Accursed Favor * 3 so he'll put us somewhere we can survive long enough to grow, but I'm not confident enough in that to wager on it.

You guys are probably overestimating the impact of small amounts of Accursed Favor! Especially without Wishes / Pay to Win involved.

Genesys said:
If Relinquishment came initially charged, it would probably be a very strong pick?
With one week of free training, we could probably advance Praxis to a passable level. Unfortunately, that is probably not the case.
I can't support Sword with Intensify, since that increases odds of first-fight death.
Optimizing for (very) earlygame survival with Sword would probably include Forebear's Blade and Gisena, though a third pick would be tough. Since the second 1-Remittance companion is initially useless and requires force multiplication, Hunger nulls ability to prepare, and with Sword, Intensify nulls previous magic including Forebear's Blade, the choice would be between Talon, Relinquishment, and Favor. Since Favor at 1-remittance almost definitely can't be a Wish to save us, probably Talon, since it would allow resource acquisition without requiring social interaction. Though companions do mitigate social somewhat since they can buy things on our behalf and stuff. Relinquishment is good, but I'm not sure Sword can afford it.
[X] The Sword That Ends the World
[X] Accretion
[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
[X] Talon
[X] Forebear's Blade

Fully charged Relinquishment would be broken, yeah.

Forebear's Blade doesn't start off any more powerful under Accretion, it's just got the ability to grow and scale with you (geometrically, since the blade itself and the Accretion partnership are both expanding in might / finesse).

Aabcehmu · May 18, 2020

I've updated my build, dropping Hunger rather than Forebear's Blade and picking up Gisena in its stead.

LordOfMurder · May 18, 2020

Are there effects the Praxis can't manage to replicate?

Genesys · May 18, 2020

Hm. Now that I'm reading it, that does seem to be the case for Accretion. It only does something in addition in Seven Seals.
Rihaku word too, so I guess I'll switch to Seven Seals.
[X] The Sword That Ends the World
[X] Seven Seals
[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
[X] Talon
[X] Forebear's Blade

TwistedJester · May 18, 2020

Rihaku said:
Read Prolessarch's entry carefully...

I figured that Scepter would being able to easily survive to the point where he can rediscover the Diagram or the spell, whereas if Sword survives their first few fights they can follow that path as well. I mean retinue is pretty powerful so it shouldn't take too long in either case. Or am I overestimating the base intelligence of him?

LordOfMurder · May 18, 2020

TwistedJester said:
I figured that Scepter would being able to easily survive to the point where he can rediscover the Diagram or the spell, whereas if Sword survives their first few fights they can follow that path as well. I mean retinue is pretty powerful so it shouldn't take too long in either case. Or am I overestimating the base intelligence of him?

It sounds like he no longer has access to diagram magic because it's powering his immortality.

BrainInAJar · May 18, 2020

Also, since we have the Doom of Tyrant no matter what, minions are great thanks to not being affected by it. We can send them to do stuff for us.

Rihaku said:
Trying to bribe Sword voters with waifus, eh? I'm on to you, mister!

For the Sword, no debasement is too great.

Rihaku said:
Gisena technically has higher base physical stats, she just lacks Catherine's raw combat skill.

Can we get Catherine to train Gisena?

George said:
Hunger is meant to be sometimes used by us and often used by Gisena, so that Gisena may mitigate the Geas of Indenture, Apocryphal Curse, and The Decimator's Affliction. It won't be enough for her to keep up with a Progression Cursebearer, but it will retain her relevance much longer than without while also giving us the possibility of fast power growth through combat when the need arises.

Hunger can't be taken off.

TwistedJester said:
I figured that Scepter would being able to easily survive to the point where he can rediscover the Diagram or the spell, whereas if Sword survives their first few fights they can follow that path as well. I mean retinue is pretty powerful so it shouldn't take too long in either case. Or am I overestimating the base intelligence of him?

If we survive with any option we will have no trouble progressing, ID or no ID.

George · May 18, 2020

BrainInAJar said:
Hunger can't be taken off.

Ah thanks my bad.

formalAI · May 18, 2020

[X] Plan Devourer of Curses
-[X] The King's Scepter
-[X] Seven Seals
-[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
-[X] Hunger
-[X] Forebear's Blade

The King's Specter so that the quest doesn't end early, Gisena and the Forebear's Blade combined with Seven Seals provides curses mitigation amongst numerous other benefits, while Hunger will greatly increase our progression speed overall.

BrainInAJar · May 18, 2020

@Rihaku Between getting Catherine and getting Forebearer's+Seal, which one increases our survival chances the most for Sword?

TwistedJester · May 18, 2020

LordOfMurder said:
It sounds like he no longer has access to diagram magic because it's powering his immortality.

Is that what that meant? Frick, I thought that he basically burned memory and soul for survival and could've worked his way through the Diagram again. Welp back to the drawing board.

Dark Lord Bob · May 18, 2020

BrainInAJar said:
Also, since we have the Doom of Tyrant no matter what, minions are great thanks to not baing affected by it. We can send them to do stuff for us.

On that note, @Rihaku what actually is it we get by buying someone as a companion? Their presence, or cooperation, or obedience, or what?

Fumbles · May 18, 2020

Dark Lord Bob said:
On that note, @Rihaku what actually is it we get by buying someone as a companion? Their presence, or cooperation, or obedience, or what?

Marriage contract. Lich is best boy, accept no substitute.

Paloneia · May 18, 2020

[X] The Sword That Ends the World
[X] Seven Seals
[X] Gisena Allria, the Nullity Sorceress
[X] Retinue
[X] Intensify

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