Do you really think Thanos going to let us get that far. He probably going to follow us or raid the vault while we go to Odin. if we can't fight directly use intrigue, use your imagination don't just give up at the first sign of trouble. at least movie Loki the villian he is at the end of the day he wasnt a traitor and died for his people. If we don't at least try this Loki is nothing but a coward and a traitor.
LokiQuest: Re-Reshape and Retry (CK2)
- Thread starter Black King
- Start date
- Location
- United states
Oh for Pete's sake. You are just being emotionally manipulative to try to get people to vote for a way you want instead of using actual logic. Because you totally are by trying to guilt trip people by calling people that vote a certain way cowards and once again ignoring every bit of reasoning and logic that other people who disagree with you use.
People point out that an obviously bad match up doesn't seem worth fighting and that the logical point would be to not fight a seemingly suicidal fight and go for our parents because we actually care about said parents? You try to shame people and fear monger that any other way but your way is wrong.
But just to be sure @KnowledgeKing If we manage to hypothetically get away with our parents would we automatically bad end because Thanos would have the Mind Stone like @Darkcore41 is saying?
you say that but then you leave answers like this
As a justification when we had created a spy network before this AND Loki is godly at accounting but you never even rolled for Loki getting any forewaring of this IC instead deciding that Thanos would succed with every part of the trap that wasn't right in front of Lokis eyes... That's railroading frankly. What's worse you're justifying all of this by saying that the player base should know better since "Thanos is obviously insane and you should totally have meta gamed guys." Despite us butterflying away the thing that broke him in canon afawk
No the better question is will we be able to get out with our parents? We maybe able to save them but you would be dooming all the planets we set up business in by handing the keys to Thanos. This is the best chance to stop this, if we can't beat him physically because of the artifacts then use intrigue. You aren't even trying, you keep on advocating giving up just like the last vote because you think working under Thanos is good.
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- Location
- California
You are misstating Darkcore41's argument.
Note that Darkcore41 does not argue that surrender would lead to an "automatic bad end". He is arguing that it would be ridiculous to hope that surrendering would be a good idea for many, many reasons. And then he articulated (logically) why doing something would be better.
And, as per usual, you mock anyone who differs from your opinon as "Leeroy Jenkins", "fear-mongering", and acting exasperated. Which, fair enough, have worked for enough votes in the quest that we are where we are (and also worked last quest). However, when one strikes out the over-the-top emotion and mockery, really, there is nothing to argue with.
Because you haven't really articulated a good point. Hopefully, enough voters will see that and vote for something that can actually lead to a good action.
To be fair, the QM has been very clear on his stance on our ability to butterfly away things- he does not believe core traits can be modified. I was unsure if the QM thought that Thanos' insanity was a core trait or something that came up because his world died. Now I can see, obviously, he believes that insanity is Thanos' core trait (which leads to a dark view on mental health- but that isn't a discussion for this thread and we already discussed this idea of core trait last quest).
- Location
- United states
First off by that time it was assumed that he didn't want Asgard and once it was confirmed that he did I actually removed my vote once other seemingly viable options came up. Second you are doing it again, framing an argument in the worst light and ignoring all the other points. You make sound like the suggestion is just giving up instead of people realizing that this is honestly a really bad match up against a guy with multiple artifacts and buffed up. Retreating is in fact a viable and even usually smart strategy because something you conveniently ignore is that us dying means that Thanos also gets the keys anyway.
The reason I'm against fighting is because it's obviously a bad idea and it says something that you can't come up with logical arguments that don't ignore reasoning just because. If we die Asgard is might as well doomed anyway because then Frigga and Odin will just die without Loki's support at which point Hela gets released. But if we manage to escape with Odin then not only does Hela not get released but we can come back with a healed Odin which would be better for Asgard overall rather then them just dying if we ended up dying in a needlessly suicidal charge. And if people don't remember suicidally charging an opponent that we really shouldn't ended up with us bad ending in the previous quest, made worse with people pointing out that it was a really horrible idea and other players ignoring said warning.
And I once again point out that retreating when it makes sense is actually pretty acceptable for Asgardians. We've seen Heimdall decide to sneak his sword away rather then fight Hela and we see the people of Asgard flee Asgard to escape Hela. Even freaking Thor decided that fighting Hela head on was stupid and decided that unleashing freaking Surtur to destroy the land of Asgard was the more pragmatic option.
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
I'm not sure what he's saying but Thanos getting the Mind Stone back isn't a bad end.
How would Loki see the plan? Thanos stole from others across the universe (in a way Loki doesn't know of at the time) and subverted Loki's own spies on his planet due to his intelligence and intrigue, and the fact that it's now his planet. Loki can't roll to do the impossible. Or see what's not in front of him. That's a weird ask.
Speaking of asks, I was asked to not roll for others anymore, so I don't. This is something that happens now. I just see if it's feasible via their stats and resources and personality, and it happens.
And it can't be railroading when a simple 'no, don't meet with Thanos without making sure Thor and/or Odin are present' can stop it. Not like he kidnapped you.
This wasn't some grand plan. Just something that happened because of the Titan action + the meeting with Thanos action.
- Location
- Hala
[x] Trickster is still my motherf***ing middle name.
-[x] Agree to take the medicineand reach down for it.
-[x] When in close proximity go for the kill (hopefully it is a one-shot it) [add my +12]
-[x] Take all the weapons and rush to Odin's chamber to administer the medicine. (Make sure it is not poison... I really don't want Loki to poison his sires.)
--[x] Make the Destroyer switch position with you. Thanos would be on your tail.
-[x] Tell Hugin to get Eir or a healer to check on Odin and Frigga, and tell Munin to gather a good portion of the soldiers outside (or the docking area, where Thanos's vehicular transport is and kill Thanos). (Recreate the scene from Ragnarok. Get Skiff, Turrets, Swords and every weapon you can to point at him instead of Hela.)
So... time is of the essence. We can't perform a seal or binding as we don't have time for that.
And @Red Bovine
Thanos using the Mind Stone on Loki is a real possibility.
Other Options are none other than Us. His next sentence clears it up.
-[x] Agree to take the medicine
-[x] When in close proximity go for the kill (
-[x] Take all the weapons and rush to Odin's chamber to administer the medicine. (Make sure it is not poison... I really don't want Loki to poison his sires.)
--[x] Make the Destroyer switch position with you. Thanos would be on your tail.
-[x] Tell Hugin to get Eir or a healer to check on Odin and Frigga, and tell Munin to gather a good portion of the soldiers outside (or the docking area, where Thanos's vehicular transport is and kill Thanos). (Recreate the scene from Ragnarok. Get Skiff, Turrets, Swords and every weapon you can to point at him instead of Hela.)
So... time is of the essence. We can't perform a seal or binding as we don't have time for that.
The problem with all escape plans/ attack now and we can escape later through Tesseract, is... the medicine. The medicine is not a cure. We can't escape after administrating the medicine to Odin and Frigga... They still need to be medically treated.
And @Red Bovine
Thanos using the Mind Stone on Loki is a real possibility.
Other Options are none other than Us. His next sentence clears it up.
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What he meat was there was no character change from stopping the defining event that created the mad titain.
Edit: The only two ways to one shot would be to roll very high martial or use binding to seal his limbs. I think sealing his limbs are the most consistent way. @Sanas22
@KnowledgeKing What is the DC for sealing the memories of how to use limbs?
What is the DC to physically seal limbs?
What kind of fighter does the Merc look like? Physical, ranged, mental?
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Ok fair enough, but what's Thanos motivation for doing this then? what's his end goal and why now? In canon he saw his planet die because he saw a problem and they didn't listen to him until it was too late. He decided too save the universe by doing what he thought was best, knowing he would be hated but was still willing to do it because no one else would.
So why would he attack Asgard? To use their resources to save the rest of the universe from the dark fate only he can see? ok I buy that but Thanos doesn't just attack because of that he would at least try too reason with Asgard/loki before attacking Thanos never kills unless he has too in the first place. And would rather cooperate with us then try to take over by force as a first resource
- Location
- United states
But he is fear mongering in that he is trying to scare the people into voting a certain way that he wants by outright stating that we will bad end if Thanos gets the mind stone back and guess what?
It isn't. Darkcores main argument for fighting was that we would bad end if we didn't He doesn't even treat it like a possibility, he treats it like an absolute certainty which is just scaring people into thinking that if they don't vote for a certain way that we bad end. One of Darkcores main issues is that he treats assumptions as facts instead of assumptions.
If he treated it as a possibility then I wouldn't have issue but he keeps with his habit of treating his assumptions as fact and sometimes try to scare the crap out of people to vote his way without being that willing to accept that his reasoning is wrong. To be clear I don't like to treat my own assumptions as absolutely without fail and will outright avoid to vote for a plan since I'm not sure of things like the last vote where I ended up not putting an official vote because while I was originally against fighting some people put up good arguments with an actual plan that wasn't just charging Leeloy Jenkins style.
It's fine to have a different opinion but people shouldn't be scaring the crap out of people because they treat their assumptions as fact like how Darkcore seems to do.
Is Thor not being on planet right now something the players controlled, no? Is Odin being in odin sleep something the players controlled, no? And you didn't roll for anything like that but decided that both of those things would happen because you don't roll for others now anymore...then that's rail roading without giving thte players even the chance to mitagate it
What the QM said is Thanos did this because Odin wouldn't take him serously. So he wanted to inflate himself by helping defeat it and the QM agrees it is short sighted but his original plan was so why not now.
Edit: Never said badend by the way, I said he will use the mind stone on Loki. Why would he not he already mentioned exploring different options and Loki might be a lost cause. I even pointed out why your escape won't work at all and that Thanos is insane and you want to trust crazy. @Red Bovine
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- Location
- United states
I agree with this. Even if Thanos is a bit nuts seems like it would be more IC for him to try to talk to us first and then try violence if that fails. Even if he didn't think Odin himself would listen to him getting one of the princes to meet with him would logically mean that he would have a chance to improve relations.
- Location
- Hala
Thanos wanted an ally in Asgard. He planned an attack on Asgard in such a manner that he could join this battle from the Asgardian side in the hopes of gaining Odin's respect.
But then he found out through Loki that both Odin and Thor are incapacitated at the moment. (Loki's stuttering and not giving a proper answer through dialogues is what made me write my own dialogues in my plans. It was the reason Thanos was able to deduct Odin and Thor not being available to fight.) And like any insane person he decided to fk his initial decision and just conquer the whole planet... It's not like Asgard has any military allies. The only planet close to Asgard in relation is Vanaheim.
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FFS you're telling me this happened because thanos wasn't smart enough to figure out we were the leader of the company? That's retarded hes supposed to be smart lol Odin had nothing to do with what thanos wanted and the fact that he didn't talk to us before even trying to escalate is weird and goes against his characters
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
But...players got the chance to simply not have the meeting. And to check if Thor is there. And they already knew Odin was in Odinsleep. And the Thor thing was technically decided by someone else so...nah. Not railroading.
Ya Loki's dialogue wasn't the best and it was like we signaled him to attack but to be fair people were advocating t just tell him about Odin sleep because he was supposed to have changed.
Edit: The problem with the Thor thing is he just got to leave because he was charming. Also we got no indication Thanos was crazy, we didn't even know that was a core trait because that had an actual reason for it in endgame. @KnowledgeKing
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- Location
- United states
You pretty much implied that we would bad end in that Thanos would definitely mind control Loki instead of it being even remotely possible for it to be avoided by a number of ways including just finding a way to escape Asgard. Heck, even a ship seems reasonable since the QM mentioned that all the enemy ships were taken out.
And I have no idea what you mean by trusting Thanos. I suggested taking a chance with the merc offering medicine to heal our parents rather than fighting him because:
A) The guy is stupidly overpowered and we are likely to be killed fighting someone above our league or bad ending like last quest by attacking a person we shouldn't when we had other options.
And
B) Taking the chance to save our parents.
I'm thinking that this may be a way that the QM is giving us to save Frigga and Odin. That and we actually don't need to fight the guy and it seems like a really horrible idea to do so.
You shouldn't meta game considering you yourself pointed out he could be messing with us when it came to Lorelei. Besides no one can understand his mind we made assumptions before and failed horribly.
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
Did he? From Thanos' own words...his planet was starving (same as here) and his definite course of action/suggested plan was to...kill half of everyone randomly. That's it. Nothing else. Then when it didn't work, he went and started killing half of everything to prove it.
Now the killing is more crazy sure but...coming up with the plan is also crazy. And that's without provocation or any known trauma.
Also his thing is being the Mad Titan in both MCU and 616.
Wait... so this entire attack isn't orchestrated by thanos?! THATS EVEN WORSE! Thanos isn't a world conquering maniac. He doesn't eeven like violence guys. Everything he does in canon he's doing because he HAS to do it (in his eyes) to save everyone in hte long run.
I ask again, why does he want to conquer the planet when he came to save them? Loki being incompetent shouldn't make him do this, frankly it would make him fight harder FOR the Asguardians *sigh* He litereally let his people die in canon when they didn't listen to him, it was only after their destruction that he decided that he didn't want the rest of the unviverse go through the same thing.
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- Location
- Hala
In the movie the reason is no one listened to him and Titan died. He tried to reason first and when his prediction happened he thought he had to force it because no one would accept it. In 616 lady death and the looking different from all the other kids caused his instability. So in both cases it was circumstances that caused him to rampage.
@Red Bovine You would save our parents at the cost of giving Thanos the ability to control entire world's economy. Give him two infinity stones and Asgards magic and expect to dethrone him later. With what, because we can use the medicine to stabilize them but we can't leave with them. They are basically hostages and Odin is an info repository to him.