What I'm saying is that there is almost certainly something more going on here than the Shiplords looking specifically for Practice, or specifically for Speaking. The order of battle for the augmented Tribute Fleet was really weird, and we need to keep that in mind, since there is almost certainly at least one revelation, and possibly more than one, ahead of us before any of what happened there makes sense.
The Practice War [Complete]
- Thread starter Snowfire
- Start date
- Original Sci-Fi
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
You reiterated your opinion that the SLs give no shit about fair Tribute assessments, using the Medicament's intervention as proof of it. The QM said, previously and reminded you that the Medicament had stayed out of battle until and intervened for a reason which was very expressly not the one one your provided, even if it can be assumed so IC. The QM made that post to deny your previous assertion that the SLs do not care about fair Tribute assessments. Your post now is just about exactly the same: That the SLs do not care about fair Tribute assessments.
If you want to say the QM is lying or obfuscating to us, please just say so.
Otherwise, please stop.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
@TheEyes your assumption that the Shiplords were looking for Speaking over anything else is a rather large one. In fact, your logic chain itself is rather flawed, most deeply because of your expectation that the Tribute Fleet would be able to detect the use of Practice the moment they entered the star system.
Recall that you had systemwide sensor jamming in effect, something which you did not have when the Contact Fleet came calling.
Recall that you had systemwide sensor jamming in effect, something which you did not have when the Contact Fleet came calling.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm pretty sure we've been told that the attachment of a Medicament-class support ship to the second Tribute Fleet was a consequence of the disastrous case where Insight tried to spy on the Shiplords and got hit with some kind of 'counterspell.'
It seems likely that this raised the Shiplords' suspicion of us- that they somehow knew or could deduce that we were behind it.
There is no reasonable expectation that any species will defeat the second Tribute Fleet, and in this case, the Shiplords may have had very good reason to want to arrange matters so that someone from the fleet would survive to report back. Hence, stretching the rules around a bit and making the test weightier.
And I can think of several sets of orders that work with that. Maybe if we'd turned out to be non-anomalous the Medicament would have stopped healing their ships. Or they would have just beat the snot out of us, taken a tribute, and come back next time with a more normal Tribute Fleet. Or the Medicament might have used its own ridiculous durability to survive long enough to figure out what was up with us, then report back while we still had a fleet left to fight the Tribute Ships.
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
They were able to isolate the general direction it came from, in galactic terms. That was still a rather extensive area, however. You're much further up the suspects list after wiping the Tribute Fleet, but they aren't certain enough about that for the deployment of a War Fleet to be called for.
- Location
- Head in the clouds
As I recall I think there was a general note after a similar argument that maybe talking about Shiplords not being the source of all evil wasn't the wisest idea when a lot of the evidence the GM is talking about goes under spoilers?
And not spoilers the audience didn't notice - spoilers as in the audience isn't allowed to even see?
I agree that @Snowfire knows his own setting best. I however find it immensely irritating when the Shiplord aren't utter evil card is played with essentially no support. Because the only support we are getting is WoGM - and sometimes it does feel like a history teacher saying that something is more complicated while simultaneously hiding the history books so you can't figure it out but taunting you with what you don't know.
At worst it sometimes feels like a scientist discovering a fourth law of physics and being insulting by acting like everyone is being so very silly when said scientist never plum told anyone their discovery.
If it's a mystery for the next quest can we leave it for the next quest? As it is we have a war to survive with the closest analogy I can make with my limited imperfect information is the abusive "teacher/parent" who will kill the very very large majority of a population of a species and traumatize the rest as a matter of default. Who also has a list of rules that the "child" doesn't know about that will have a reaction that again the child is never told about before or after it's crossed but will worsen a beating.
For our purposes we can't take anything for granted as a child with an abusive parent who will take any excuse to beat us half to death can't. For all we know wearing Purple shorts might set them off. Or perhaps a mentally ill abusive parent for whom reality operates on different rules.
I trust that Snowfire isn't going to be as ridiculous as the above example. But they're writing a species whose rules we as players aren't able to figure out by Game master fiat of not seeing the revalent information - so in character we have to act as if they're a dangerously erratic force we can't predict or stay within the rules of. Because we can't.
And not spoilers the audience didn't notice - spoilers as in the audience isn't allowed to even see?
I agree that @Snowfire knows his own setting best. I however find it immensely irritating when the Shiplord aren't utter evil card is played with essentially no support. Because the only support we are getting is WoGM - and sometimes it does feel like a history teacher saying that something is more complicated while simultaneously hiding the history books so you can't figure it out but taunting you with what you don't know.
At worst it sometimes feels like a scientist discovering a fourth law of physics and being insulting by acting like everyone is being so very silly when said scientist never plum told anyone their discovery.
If it's a mystery for the next quest can we leave it for the next quest? As it is we have a war to survive with the closest analogy I can make with my limited imperfect information is the abusive "teacher/parent" who will kill the very very large majority of a population of a species and traumatize the rest as a matter of default. Who also has a list of rules that the "child" doesn't know about that will have a reaction that again the child is never told about before or after it's crossed but will worsen a beating.
For our purposes we can't take anything for granted as a child with an abusive parent who will take any excuse to beat us half to death can't. For all we know wearing Purple shorts might set them off. Or perhaps a mentally ill abusive parent for whom reality operates on different rules.
I trust that Snowfire isn't going to be as ridiculous as the above example. But they're writing a species whose rules we as players aren't able to figure out by Game master fiat of not seeing the revalent information - so in character we have to act as if they're a dangerously erratic force we can't predict or stay within the rules of. Because we can't.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
So. I think that the Shiplords probably don't care about "fairness" in Tribute. That part is most likely true.
But it appears that they very much do have goals that they're trying to accomplish. They'll bring whatever they need and take whatever actions they think is appropriate for the circumstances. They prefer to err on the side of caution, it would seem (even if we don't know what they're being cautious of). Being "fair" to the Tribute races is more of a side effect of those goals and policies, not a value in its own right.
Their goals appear to be consistent with wanting to avoid actually eliminating any species, but recognizing that it's necessary sometimes. They appear to want to promote a certain kind of development, and they don't want troublemakers hanging around.
It should also be noted that even if the Medicament in SBOS had been active from the first encounter contrary to word-of-QM, it wouldn't even necessarily imply anything. If the Shiplords had employed tougher ships but pulled their punches to avoid doing too much damage to the Tributary while protecting themselves on a mission, is that really unfair?
But it appears that they very much do have goals that they're trying to accomplish. They'll bring whatever they need and take whatever actions they think is appropriate for the circumstances. They prefer to err on the side of caution, it would seem (even if we don't know what they're being cautious of). Being "fair" to the Tribute races is more of a side effect of those goals and policies, not a value in its own right.
Their goals appear to be consistent with wanting to avoid actually eliminating any species, but recognizing that it's necessary sometimes. They appear to want to promote a certain kind of development, and they don't want troublemakers hanging around.
It should also be noted that even if the Medicament in SBOS had been active from the first encounter contrary to word-of-QM, it wouldn't even necessarily imply anything. If the Shiplords had employed tougher ships but pulled their punches to avoid doing too much damage to the Tributary while protecting themselves on a mission, is that really unfair?
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
I'm going to have to question where this is coming from. The Shiplords gave you the Directives. Yes, you couldn't have predicted their reaction to how Practice was used in the Second Battle of Sol, but Speaking was so new at that point that there was no ability to look into how it might be reacted to - especially with Project Insight offline.
But this discussion isn't under a spoiler blanket like the grander Shiplord intentions are. The Shiplord Tribute Fleet detected something during the Second Battle of Sol that released the Medicament to involve itself.
Given that my attempts to lead to people to the right answer have apparently backfired so horribly that I'm coming across as taunting or abusive, I might as well just say it.
That was the point at which they detected Practice. Its use, and its presence. That is what cleared the Medicament to involve itself. And there were couriers launched then, but the Tribute Fleet was well inside of the SEZ at that point and none of them made it out.
Why Practice caused this reaction? That I won't tell you. But it was the cause. Nothing more. And nothing less, either.
Why the Shiplords aborted the Tribute fight on those aliens I did an interlude about? They'd analysed the enemy forces, their weapons, and could see that they'd decided to run instead of fight. They failed the test that the Tribute Fleets embody, and were trying to escape from it. So the Tribute Fleet launched a kinetic bombardment.
To be very, very clear. I do not condone what the Shiplords are doing. I am not trying to present them as nice. They have built an empire atop the deaths of trillions - and that's probably understating. They believe they're justified.
That doesn't make them right.
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Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
There is a lot of support. Their words to us, that they crew the Tribute ships themselves and the position is highly sought after, how mind bogglingly expensive maintaining their galactic dominance and tribute system without wiping out or enslaving species (or forbidding more or even all Secrets instead of just the second one) is, that they didn't exponentially grow their numbers over their very, very long existance to utterly incontestable size, etc.
With how advanced, trans
They almost certainly have what they considers strong and valid reasons for doing this.
If those reasons are good enough for us to justify all of those massive atrocities though, well... that remains to be seen. It is to them thought, and to assume them insane would be folly with the intel we have so far.
Edit: Even commiting the second greatest atrocity imaginable could be preferable to allowing the single greatest one possible to occur.
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Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
I find myself curious what the procedure actually is for mysterious complete disappearance of a Regular Fleet.
I'm not actually sure if War Fleet is the next response, because I don't know if they'd take the risk of a legendary War Fleet going up to something blind and losing a few vessels in the process, allowing some of their capabilities to be discovered by third parties.
Could they have some type of heavily stealthed ship group specially dedicated to reconnaissance?
I'm not actually sure if War Fleet is the next response, because I don't know if they'd take the risk of a legendary War Fleet going up to something blind and losing a few vessels in the process, allowing some of their capabilities to be discovered by third parties.
Could they have some type of heavily stealthed ship group specially dedicated to reconnaissance?
Well, we basically have no chance to "disappear" the fleet we are currently fighting, so this question will probably remain academic.
I'm still half asleep, so I'm not going to take the time to check and find it myself, but wasn't that recently mentioned Insight incident stopped by something that was kinda described as an entity? If so, what are the chances that it's the same thing (or roughly equivalent) that's here waiting now?
- Location
- lurking
The more this is talked about, the more I am intrigued over what it is the Shiplords are trying to prevent. From Nightfall and the directive about the void, we know there is some kind of spaceborn menace, and it can mess with souls if what it did to insight is any indication. My personal approach to this is that we are dealing with some cthulu-grade, interstellar menace that can, in some way, mess with biological constructs, which would also explain why the SL are trying to steer species away from relying on biotech.
Should there be something to this theory, it would explain a lot about SL doctrine, and it would also provide the missing link to the medicatement-debate. Cthulu was poked from this sector, so when being there, keep watch for cthulu-poking-capabilities. I'm intrigued on where this is going
Should there be something to this theory, it would explain a lot about SL doctrine, and it would also provide the missing link to the medicatement-debate. Cthulu was poked from this sector, so when being there, keep watch for cthulu-poking-capabilities. I'm intrigued on where this is going
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
@Snowfire
1. With regards to the 2nd Secret, do the Shiplords ban the 2nd Secret immediately after a race discovers them, or do they 'pre-ban' it in advance?
2. Are there any relation between Tribute taken and the Secrets known by a race? 2nd Secret discovery leading to biomass taken, 6th secret leading to tech taken, etc.
3. At any point at all during the Tribute Cycle, are other species allowed to intervene?
4. Have any race discovered a method or manner to detect Secret usage in any manner whatsoever?
1. With regards to the 2nd Secret, do the Shiplords ban the 2nd Secret immediately after a race discovers them, or do they 'pre-ban' it in advance?
2. Are there any relation between Tribute taken and the Secrets known by a race? 2nd Secret discovery leading to biomass taken, 6th secret leading to tech taken, etc.
3. At any point at all during the Tribute Cycle, are other species allowed to intervene?
4. Have any race discovered a method or manner to detect Secret usage in any manner whatsoever?
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Grrrraaaaah!Please hold for @Baughn outrage
I actually agree with the sentiment, though I dare say that the second greatest atrocity imaginable is likely far, far worse than the greatest atrocity actually possible. And, as always, there is a huge risk of making mistakes.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I like optimists
.
I'm thinking of 'the complete, total, and utter annihilation of all possible realities, to the point that nothing is all that remains, and then the evidence that anything happened is swept away, leaving nothing. It has always been like this.' I think that's pretty close to the 'greatest imaginable atrocity'; at least it's the greatest I can imagine.
The 'greatest plausible atrocity' is probably something more along the lines of someone deliberately inducing a vacuum collapse, ensuring the destruction of the known universe. That this may happen naturally is not a comfort at all, but at least we probably have tens of billions of years before it does.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Imagine all of reality a neverending nightmare, where each wake-up is a fake, but it always feels like this time it's the real one.
You can build up on that.
It might currently be happening?
'Currently' not being subject to relativity.
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Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
There does appear to be a scouting fleet used by the Shiplords, however it's primarily in the vein of light stealth craft with high intensity sensor packages and highly efficient jump drives. It's a relatively small portion of the Shiplord armed forces, however, and is generally dedicated to other matters. It's most common usage is against races that brook defiance for War Fleet targeting, or silent oversight in the event of conflicts between ex-tributaries.
The entities seen in Nightfalls were not what attacked you. Insight's best guess on what those presences are are the echoes of those beings that might exist between stars, the Uninvolved, or both.
- It is always banned.
- None that can be identified.
- No. To do so calls down censure. Severity depends on the level of intervention. Actively engaging a Tribute Fleet means total extermination.
- None that you know of.
In the case of banning the Second before it is discovered, do they tell you what the topic of the Second is so that you know to not go down that avenue of research?
Or do they simply expect you to go "Oh shit, we need to stop and scrap this research" once the Second reveals its name to you?
Snowfire
Polyglot of Chimera
- Location
- Wordcats
Little bit of column A, little bit of column B. Now, let's have a look at this vote. I think I'd like a few more to round things out if possible. Regardless, I'll close it in the next few hours. If I can get a start on it tonight, I think that would be good.
[X] From the Field: You are alone amidst the Shiplord fleet, with no safe place to find harbour. If there is an unknown threat coming, it is simple sanity to seek allies. Return to First Fleet, and only then seek the truth. This will allow the carriers to recover and rebuild a drone shell. Also carries the risk of alerting the Shiplords to your ability to see further into things than those not gifted with Practice should.
-[X] Upon Wings of Fire: Of course, you could attempt to hide that awareness by engaging the carriers on your way. Assault the heavy carriers that you have been keeping at bay, aiming to remove as many of them from the battle as possible in a single firing pass. Will reduce the effectiveness of any reformed drone shell, and the chance that the Shiplords will recognise your actions as reactive.
3 people have voted
-[X] Upon Wings of Fire: Of course, you could attempt to hide that awareness by engaging the carriers on your way. Assault the heavy carriers that you have been keeping at bay, aiming to remove as many of them from the battle as possible in a single firing pass. Will reduce the effectiveness of any reformed drone shell, and the chance that the Shiplords will recognise your actions as reactive.
3 people have voted
[X] Into the Deep: The Shiplords have brought…something with them. Elil believes it is not more ships, and you are inclined to believe him. But if not ships, what? And why would it be focused on the Unisonbound? You need answers, and there is only one way to get them. Dive into the Shiplord web, and seek the truth. A success will require a save vs Reaction Shock, but you will be rolling with a significant bonus.
Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
This option gives us a chance at information gathering of the sort we really only get from Insight most of the time. We have to remember that we are fighting a war, not just a battle. The more we see of them while they aren't expecting anyone to peek behind the curtain, the more we will carry away after this singular event. As much as it presents a greater risk and possibly tips some of our hand, it is a unique opportunity.
[X] Into the Deep: The Shiplords have brought…something with them. Elil believes it is not more ships, and you are inclined to believe him. But if not ships, what? And why would it be focused on the Unisonbound? You need answers, and there is only one way to get them. Dive into the Shiplord web, and seek the truth. A success will require a save vs Reaction Shock, but you will be rolling with a significant bonus.
[X] Into the Deep: The Shiplords have brought…something with them. Elil believes it is not more ships, and you are inclined to believe him. But if not ships, what? And why would it be focused on the Unisonbound? You need answers, and there is only one way to get them. Dive into the Shiplord web, and seek the truth. A success will require a save vs Reaction Shock, but you will be rolling with a significant bonus.