[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
The Passing of Beautiful Histories (Civ Quest)
- Thread starter Powerofmind
- Start date
- Original
-
- Tags
- civilization civ quest
Tribute risks longer conflict when we have a baseline of 3 actions(+1 from our aging genius of a ruler) and an ongoing 2-action commitment to the Metalworks megaproject. Not ideal.
[X] (Diplomat) Treat with them and end the conflict. Your high person's ego has been soothed, the insult to your traders avenged. You are the rightful owner of this village now, and this mine (claim the area as yours and, at least temporarily, make reprisals less likely and less forceful).
This would actually annex the richest upriver settlement instead of turning it into a nominally independent tributary.
Meaning the Mayep get to control the Copper supply more fully.
Taking over their richest settlement is probably going to wreck the Wealth of the Upriver tribes(possibly enough to dip into their Econ) and they seem to have taken a fairly large hit to Martial.
And by making peace? We get time to build our Martial back up, build a new fort/wall and give our blacksmiths time to produce copper gear for all our troops. In addition to getting the opportunity to finish our Megaproject.
[X] (Diplomat) Treat with them and end the conflict. Your high person's ego has been soothed, the insult to your traders avenged. You are the rightful owner of this village now, and this mine (claim the area as yours and, at least temporarily, make reprisals less likely and less forceful).
This would actually annex the richest upriver settlement instead of turning it into a nominally independent tributary.
Meaning the Mayep get to control the Copper supply more fully.
Taking over their richest settlement is probably going to wreck the Wealth of the Upriver tribes(possibly enough to dip into their Econ) and they seem to have taken a fairly large hit to Martial.
And by making peace? We get time to build our Martial back up, build a new fort/wall and give our blacksmiths time to produce copper gear for all our troops. In addition to getting the opportunity to finish our Megaproject.
- Location
- iTALY
[X] (Diplomat) Treat with them and end the conflict. Your high person's ego has been soothed, the insult to your traders avenged. You are the rightful owner of this village now, and this mine (claim the area as yours and, at least temporarily, make reprisals less likely and less forceful).
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
It needs to be said, but it would take at least somewhat poor luck for this to go badly enough that you can't force them to bend the knee inside the current main turn action.
- Location
- Canada
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
The slow and steady conqueror wins the race. Once the metal works is completed and docks completed should we move onto the resy of them.
Edit: QM cleared up the issue.
The slow and steady conqueror wins the race. Once the metal works is completed and docks completed should we move onto the resy of them.
Edit: QM cleared up the issue.
Last edited:
- Location
- Canada
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
Basically, I want to have our laws and our priests for now. The tight control of annexation and the process of cultural conversion instead of a satellite state with a decent industrial base and population size.
And most of all, I want the Quarry. We can conquer the other upriver villages at a later date if need be.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
So you see us as snakes, eh?
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
Well, the snake does not hunt with a mouse in its belly, so you better keep us well-fed if you want to see another sunrise~<3
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
Well, the snake does not hunt with a mouse in its belly, so you better keep us well-fed if you want to see another sunrise~<3
Brown Stone:
.
An Early Stumble:
.
Copper, Jade and Envy
[] An option to not take control of the Quarry, demanding trade and copper.
[] An option to take control of the Quarry, maintaining ownership through strength of arms.
[] An option to take the Quarry, legitimizing our ownership through diplomacy.
[] An option to not take control of the Quarry, demanding a resource tribute.
@Powerofmind a question. Do you prefer(either for personal flavour or as a QM) that the playerbase does not assume direct control over the Quarry Village at this point in time?
Option to conquer the Quarry taken. Option to establish Upriver Tributaries not taken.
.
An Early Stumble:
The option to attempt to subjugate the rest of the upriver tribes gets utterly ignored in favour of sorting our our weapons issues.
.
Copper, Jade and Envy
We now have:
[] An option to not take control of the Quarry, demanding trade and copper.
[] An option to take control of the Quarry, maintaining ownership through strength of arms.
[] An option to take the Quarry, legitimizing our ownership through diplomacy.
[] An option to not take control of the Quarry, demanding a resource tribute.
@Powerofmind a question. Do you prefer(either for personal flavour or as a QM) that the playerbase does not assume direct control over the Quarry Village at this point in time?
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
I don't mind one way or another. It just changes the flavor of your approach to things going into the early empire phases.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Considering we're essentially a feudal agrarian society with our military consisting of warbands loyal to braves loyal to us- it really doesn't seem to be a case of 'not taking control of the quarry'- not when ownership and authority is so nebulous in these chalcolithic days. Does this really strike you as all that different than the Persians and their satraps for instance?
It's not a question of 'control over the quarry' it's a question of how we assert that control and authority. Do we simply force open the gates so to speak and leave them for our merchants to exploit? Do we simply install a puppet ruler who knows we can kick his ass? Do we keep the quarry directly and use it as the justification to have a local presence to ensure they stay in line?
I implore you not to see this as a question of 'tributary, conquest, or vassal?' as distinct outcomes but more as different methods to administrate any imperial acquisitions.
It is also a question of how we implement that control and authority.
Two of the options are for Governors/Viceroys that govern in the name of the King. The other two are for Client-Kings that govern in the name of themselves but pay tribute in deference to the King's military might.
These are different philosophical concepts, even if their effects might appear similar in the moment.
The old tributary tradition was that we took stuff but otherwise left the tributaries to their own devices. With the ruling caste/ruler of the Mayep not having exerted control over the internal development of the Tributaries as long as the Tribute was delivered on time.
The Despot system saw us annex our tributaries because they intermarried with our citizens in the city that would become Anye. The despot had full control* in this age. With no major tributaries.
Right now, this is the first major group of new people that we'd be integrating into our fledgling Empire since Despots took power. And we still haven't properly codified what the extent of the Despot-King's authority actually is.
As such, I'd prefer to limit the amount of official autonomy we give to the Quarry village. That way, even if they might have a fairly large amount of informal autonomy due to the sheer distance from our administrative center, we have the mandate to centralize power to the King when we do finally get around to codifying our laws(or when we get better boats/roads/administrations to bridge the distance).
And Dalwa and Anye are not even developing straight feudalism. Just something compatible with feudalism. Possibly due to the lack of Hill Forts.
*In principle at least, stuff like the Anye quarry would suggest that spare resources are being utilized for local projects.
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
- Location
- his hidden lair
Considering our military is pretty much explicitly clan strongmen rallying together a cadre of semi-professional warriors and pledging their banners to us- it's not just something compatible with feudalism. They're entitled to their titles, wealth, and land because they bring braves for our armies, that is at it's most basic semi-feudalism.
And we sort of know how much authority we have- the Burnished Crown is a theocratic monarchy where the ruler is nominally selected by the Spirits through the Oracle. Theocratic kingdom? Client Kings? Early feudalism? That's a lot of similarities to Persia- an empire that was fantastically capable for the most part for all that Western civilization tends to emphasize it's defeats. For all the Satrapies, for all the sheer scope of it, I wouldn't say the Persian Empire had a weak central authority. Quite the opposite, the King of Kings was divinely ordained and had enormous latitude to act as he saw fit. So long as we can in part avoid harem politics, prevent a bureaucracy that overly isolates the ruler, emphasize the legitimacy and importance of an Oracle-ordained ruler we can avoid some of the worst flaws there. It's hard to overstate the amount of authority asserting that you are a god king get's you. But it's certainly more than most.
You are seeing this as some sliding scale of centralization versus decentralization. It's not really, we don't have the bureaucracy or administration to have anything remotely resembling viceroys or governors. Chances are, if we hold it for ourselves, it won't really be imperial administration so much as it will be us inviting a military noteworthy to claim it in exchange for taxes, copper, and troops. Having the genius diplomat being unwilling to engage with the conquered out of some misguided attempt to retain an impossible dream of centralized empire is a mistake. At best you are perpetuating the military nobility, at worst you are inviting Roman style adventurism and warlordism. Partially divorcing the prosperity of our military from claiming conquests might be expensive, but it can definitely be a stabilizing factor.
- Location
- Earth
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
FULL SPEED AHEAD PEOPLE
FULL SPEED AHEAD PEOPLE
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
- Location
- Queensland, Australia
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
[X] (Diplomat/Tribute History) Treat with them and demand subjugation and obedience, though the land will return to their people nominally. All those who call the river home are subjects of Mayep (attempt to demand all the Silfi submit to the Burnished Crown of Maye. Might work, might make the conflict longer).
Except the king has no formal restrictions on his power and there is no formal contract between him and his vassals. Which is a non-feudalism that might develop into basic feudalism.
There's also the local specialization versus the general trend towards autarky in Feudal societies. And the emphasis on trade. And it's questionable whether or not a large number of our farmers have a serfdom contract or if they're just citizens who farm stuff.
It might be closer to the Byzantine Theme system(or possibly even an earlier system, like the Roman provincial system) considering the land grants were initially given to the Warriors, but in these chalcolithic days, our society's rules and traditions are far too nebulous to be properly called feudalism.
Even if you insist on comparing it to early Persia? I would still prefer to be setting up our own governors who rule in the King's name(as Persia did) over allowing kings who just bowed their head and gave tribute to continue ruling(as Persia also did).
.
But on to your assumption that I'm only viewing this on the sliding scale of centralization versus decentralization.
Simply put, I am not just viewing this in terms of Centralization versus Decentralization. Especially not in terms of what we can do at this exact moment.
The parts where I view this as Centralization versus Decentralization? Is how future generations might use our actions to interpret how society ought to be organized.
Another angle that I'm speaking of is that officially claiming the Quarry village means the other Upriver villages can't complain if we were to say... plop down a temple and indoctrinate them into our cultural values. Hellenization basically. Limiting the target demographic for a more thorough conversion.
A third is that while administrating it ourselves might not be feasible, taking it as part of our kingdom could Strain Administrative and Boat-building technologies if our people view this as something that "should" be under our direct administration. Or it could get the Oracle to support building the Shipyard or Palace.
And it was the military who collected tributes from the tributaries. My vote has the Genius Diplomat king claim the Quarry village as officially being part of his personal domain*(even if it has unofficial autonomy) while acknowledging the other Upriver villages as not being Part of our Empire, as defined by a peace treaty.**
No land given to the Warriors(it belongs to the King), no Generals that might be elevated for this campaign(the King was the General) and no further fighting with the Upriver tribes allowed(the King made peace, going against the peace would go against the King's promises).
If anything? It does more to discourage Warlordism than the Tributary vote.
*instead of having our armies periodically roll around and collect plunder
**Which means any Warrior that breaks the Upriver peace without the Upriver tribes breaking it first would either make the King an Oathbreaker or the Warrior a treasonous subject.
- Location
- his hidden lair
There's a reason I referred to it as early/semi-feudalism- not all the trappings are there but it's definitely evolved in that direction. But we already sort of see an implicit contract with the warrior nobility.
Again, I don't see Byzantine Themes or Persian Governors being at all applicable. We are still essentially in the heady days of prehistory with next to know writing or bureaucracy. Expecting that complicated and effective administration from us is overstepping.
Moreover, I still argue even in your choice we're likely as not going to give the quarry to one of our military nobility to administrate. And if we don't do that it's likely just to be a royal family member. There likely isn't going to be any 'direct administation' outside the city our king rules from.
Furthermore, you are assuming we can't still potentially lean on the client kings when it comes to temples. We'd be entirely in our right to assert that each 'satrap' or village of large enough size needs a temple. Or turning the local noteworthies into our nobility through our tradegoods, culture, and language. You yourselve have just argued that their is no contract or limit on our power- and that means for all that it might be a more difficult we can absolutely override our client kings on some matters.
As for oracle supporting new options, the client kings are still going to generate new bureaucratic needs- especially because we'd be controlling and collecting taxes over a much larger area than the quarry, and the shipyard might still be necessary to maintain lines of communication and the flow of resources. They're both incredibly necessary options but I don't see your choice as inherently more likely to stress their necessity.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
So the current thread of argument is pretty interesting, as it's hard to say what is and isn't there yet, administratively.
I feel the current discussion will benefit from knowing that your focus on the copper industry is already due to roll over into early currency, and a major choice will be to focus the Metalworks project on being a coinage Mint, a general artisanal forge, or a military forge.
I feel the current discussion will benefit from knowing that your focus on the copper industry is already due to roll over into early currency, and a major choice will be to focus the Metalworks project on being a coinage Mint, a general artisanal forge, or a military forge.
So you're saying that the Persian Governor system is not at all applicable due to its complexity but that we shouldn't talk about the complexities of the feudal system when comparing feudalism to our current system.
You do see the massive dichotomy in holding these two positions at the same time right?
Right now, we have a Warrior class, of whom some might be descended from Warriors that were given land grants(land grants that haven't been formally established as heritable), organized by oaths of loyalty to their commander, with neither their position as warrior or their commander's position being established as heritable through family lines and no formal equipment requirement(e.g. Eques/, Chevalier) having been set.
Yes, we have a strong military influence in our administration. And yes, if given an unknown number of generations as-is, it would lead to a form of feudalism for the cities of Maye and Gadawa. But right now? The strong military influence paired with a civilian administration in the form of the priesthood and a merchant class that's left to their own devices? That's about as close to the Byzantine theme system proper as it is to Feudalism proper(and one might even be able to make the case for the provincial system predating the Themes). Albeit with a more powerful Patriarch analogue in the Oracle.
.
I have no particular urge to give the quarry to one of our Warriors. Nor do I have an urge to hand it to a family member. If a warrior or family member ends up administrating the King's lands as administrators? They end up administrating the King's lands as administrators in service to the King.
Doesn't matter how much autonomy the job will realistically have, doesn't matter if we can't directly administer it. What matters is that we legally consider that land to be part of the King's domain instead of it being the personal domain of a local chief, a Mayep warrior or a nephew of the King.
The thing I'm voting for? Is to officially have the Upriver village with the Jade&Copper quarry recognized as belonging to the King. Not one of the king's subjects. Not a tributary. The King.
Sure, we can probably lean on the client kingdoms and pressure them into building temples of our faith. And the local ruler might decide that shit costs too many resources, that they don't want our priests or that they don't want us to preach our foreign culture to them.
And from the perspective of the priests: they may very well be interested in supporting more autonomy for a powerful chieftain if said chieftain offers to support the Oracle's faction in return. It's what I'd do if I were playing a priestly faction involved in a power struggle with a local secular ruler of our religion.
So how about we instead say fuck that noise and have our diplomat of a King convince the Upriver Tribes(who are not beholden to the Oracle at Gadawa right now) that the Quarry village is rightfully part of the King's domain and that the rest of their villages are left alone as long as the King's peace is kept?
.
They are called Tributaries. If they were called Satraps, we'd have to acknowledge the other administrative forms of the Persian Empire. Like the Governor system, which you have already dismissed. But on to your point:
We have absolutely no historical precedent to lean on our tributaries in such a manner. We might be able to, and the Oracle might back us on this, but the Oracle backing us on this is probably because making them into tributaries, with all the relative independence the Mayep have granted their tributaries in the past, would expand the power of the priesthood relative to that of the King.
.
The larger amount of territory might increase the importance of the warriors collecting the tribute, the bureaucrats recording the tribute and the ships carrying the tribute, but our tributaries have historically been given a fairly open hand. If you wish to conquer the rest of the Upriver tribes without having to wait on them breaking the peace first? We might be able to compromise with:
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Not actually what would happen. The Silfi are actually more than double the distance from Gadawa (your furthest garrison upriver) as Gadawa is from Maye, and they're a few days from one another by your boats. It would be... infeasible, to personally rule the region, just as the King does not personally rule Gadawa, Anye, or Dalwa, despite however close they are to Maye.
In Gadawa, the Garrison Commander is the law. If the King specifies something, he obeys, but otherwise has free reign to maintain order however he sees fit. In Anye, so long as the wealthy don't cause a ruckus, the King allows them a lot of latitude in their own private pecking orders. In Dalwa, so long as order is maintained, nobody cares what kind of trades or deals the inheriting landowners do amongst themselves, or how they decide who's 'mayor'.
The theme here is that generally, everyone does what they please, unless Maye wants something, or unless what they please leads to complaints drifting over to Maye and the seat of the crown, which everyone obeys by dint of the local superstition declaring they should follow it or, and I quote, "The Land and Earth shall be rent asunder, the Sky shall howl it's rage with Thunder, and the River and Sea will drag all Mens' works under."