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A Little Trouble in Big China - A Chinese Warlord Quest

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VoidZero said:
Had i not tried my best to work with all of Qing last turn? Look at the 2 actions that didn't leave anyone out! What more do you want! Dissolve my army and die?
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VoidZero said:
[D] Zhang Xueliang
-[Option 1] Peace
--[] More soldiers through recruitment campaign. Cite good salary and benefits.
--[] Invest in enclaves infrastructures, build tall then wide.
--[] Expand the college(s), add medical branch with foreign hires.
--[] Encourage the industrialists to invest in the factories and produce more advance products. Radios, trains, and trucks will have very high demand.
--[] Roll out the procured and produced equipment to the military. More machine guns, field cannons, and radios.
--[] ???
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You did do at least something for Prince Chun and the Qing empire in general, but my point was more about your current plan and about finding some sort of compromise.​
The Sandman said:
Anarchism is not about creating a world without rules.

Anarchism is about creating a world without rulers.

A distinction often lost on said rulers, I'll admit. But I assure you the ruled can tell the difference.
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You are likely right, not really a expert on Anarchism.

I tried to make a quick plan for prince Chun. I am more sure about some of the actions, than others so I am more than open for ideas for improvements or ideas for other things prince Chun ought to be doing.

[] Prince Chun: Manchu Prince, father of the Qing Emperor. Prime Minister of the Qing.
- [] Plan: Don't let the good times end!
  1. Prince Chun will attempt to put together a relief force to help the Xinjiang Triumvirate deal with the rebellion.
  2. Prince Chun will attempt to attract both foreign investment and expertise to speed up industrialization.
  3. Prince Chun will attempt to support a general industrialization of Qing with a focus on the machine tool industry and other forms of industry that will make the establishing of new industry both easier and better.
  4. Prince Chun will attempt to establish contact to the religious rebels in Mongolia to covertly support their rebellion against the Soviets and friendly relations.
  5. Prince Chun will attempt to improve and standardizing the public education system with a focus on giving as many children as reasonably possibly a basic education in reading, writing and math, but also a healthy dose of cultural and historical education that supports rule of the Qing empire.
  6. Prince Chun will attempt to secure a permanent supply of the material aide, that Alexander von Falkenhausen pointed out that the new Imperial army of Qing was lacking, while ensuring that the army had a proper logistical system in place.
 
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Mortenkam said:
You did do at least something for Prince Chun and the Qing empire in general, but my point was more about your current plan and about finding some sort of compromise.
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How am i suppose to find a compromise of any sort when all i got to work is hostility? Your plan to improve Qing in earlier turns only worked because both of us wanted to deal. What was ??? action suppose to be if not for deal?
 
kilopi505 said:
I checked. No, you didn't answer the question, I didn't even raise the question before now and after I made my plan and there's no indication that the two foreigners went to Zhuhai in the posts themselves.

Ok. Other people, wanna collaborate with the Tong?!

WANNA WORK TOGETHER!?
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Then I'll say that the two foreigners fled during the Japanese invasion of Shanghai.

GM Note: As much as I appreciate the discussion, this quest is not the place to discuss the validity of Anarchism. Please open a thread in N&P where you can discuss to your hearts content!
 
VoidZero said:
How am i suppose to find a compromise of any sort when all i got to work is hostility? Your plan to improve Qing in earlier turns only worked because both of us wanted to deal. What was ??? action suppose to be if not for deal?
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Look, the point is that Wu Peifu has become the rival/enemy of Zhang Xueliang, and I am looking for a way to avoid it turning into another civil war.

That will require some sort of compromise/deal, that both parts are willing to accept and what I am looking for, is such a compromise.

Then if Wu Peifu's problem with Zhang Xueliang is that Zhang is not sharing his industry with Wu, then I am suggesting, that Zhang share his industry in some fashion with Wu to end whatever this conflict between the two of them.
 
Mortenkam said:
Look, the point is that Wu Peifu has become the rival/enemy of Zhang Xueliang, and I am looking for a way to avoid it turning into another civil war.

That will require some sort of compromise/deal, that both parts are willing to accept and what I am looking for, is such a compromise.

Then if Wu Peifu's problem with Zhang Xueliang is that Zhang is not sharing his industry with Wu, then I am suggesting, that Zhang share his industry in some fashion with Wu to end whatever this conflict between the two of them.
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If "share" means hand over for free than that is no comprise at all. Business is business and i made it abundantly clear both in the past and now that i do not turn away business.
 
Dadarian said:
Then I'll say that the two foreigners fled during the Japanese invasion of Shanghai.

GM Note: As much as I appreciate the discussion, this quest is not the place to discuss the validity of Anarchism. Please open a thread in N&P where you can discuss to your hearts content!
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Whew! Playing Du Yuesheng is freaking hard mode!

...I wish the # of actions is 7 instead of six. I got an idea percolating and waiting to be used.
 
[X] Zhang Xun
-[X] Plan: The Dragon's Claw

1. Using the resources of the Manchu Restoration Movement and whatever the fellow Qing can provide, initiate the formation and creation of a domestic group tasked with the protection of Qing's inner territories called: The Dragon's Claw. The Dragon's Claw will consist of devoted loyalists, intellectuals, and veterans, while also creating youth groups that seek to train and teach the youth and willing citizens of Qing China on practical skills and the values that all Imperial Citizens should uphold: Daoism, Confucianism, and Legalism. These groups will protect the home front as virtues of self-sacrifice for the greater good, diligence, and heroism are instilled in them as they are taught about the noble history of the Qing.

2. Dragon's Claw will increase efforts to better the lives of the people of Qing by spreading propaganda with the support of Xu Shichang to promote unity and loyalty among the people of Qing to prevent foreign partisans from taking root. This propaganda will focus on the fact that China has always included the 5 people that call it home, and how it was these five people that united into one eastern empire that was the envy of the life; it will also focus on the nature of the Emperor's rule as he is the divine mandate of heaven and earning his favor is the respect and appreciation of the celestial beings.

3. The Dragon's Claw will use accumulated support and the resources allocated to it to initiate a massive labor/work incentive by promoting and aiding in massive industrialization and westernization of secured Qing land primarily those outside of the Tiger's and Jade's Control.

4. Use personal resources to hire White Russian Mercenaries to help train the Dragon's Claw; instilling discipline, military tactics, and the likes into the members of the Dragon's Claw to better equip and prepare them. Also use the females of the White Russian Mercenaries to teach the Dragon's Claw about medicinal techniques to better field-aid and healthcare in Qing.

5. Use more propaganda with Xu Shichang to emphasize the fact that "Women Hold Up Half The Sky" and "Every Citizen Has A Place and Purpose" in Qing to encourage women alongside people to enter the work-fields and sign up to join the Dragon's Claw.

6. Attend the Imperial Meeting hosted by Prince Chun. Bring about two trusted friends to serve as bodyguards for myself. Once at the meeting bring up the clearly displayed problem of the warlords having too much autonomy, and advocate for a centralization of Qing with the establishment of a military council. Argue for a dissolution of Zhang Xueliang's and Wu Peifu's cliques and integrate them into Qing and the Imperial Army, while also promoting Wu has the official Marshal of the East and Grand Admirable and Zhang Xueliang as Marshal of the Northeast and either governor of Jehol Province or the Special Plenipotentiary of Industry.
 
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@Dadarian, a question.

How much impact did the Howell (Semi)Automatic Rifles had in the KMT civil war?

Are they the only reason the H-KMT isn't defeated by now?
 
...the noble history of the Qing?

Presumably it just sort of stops around 1800? Because otherwise there's kind of a full century of abject failure and humiliation on top of being a dynasty of foreign invaders. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, one might say. :wink:
 
kilopi505 said:
Ok. Other people, wanna collaborate with the Tong?!

WANNA WORK TOGETHER!?
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You are trying to spy on my lands and funnel all the info to nationalists and anarchists which seems a bit less than friendly? I don't think I've done you a bad turn to deserve such focus, especially when I'm so far from those folks and it may well end up splitting the efforts of your network.

Then again, I suppose it is low-hanging fruit given that much of the civilian population likely despise Zongchang and certain elements of his military may be rather mercenary in temperament. Anyway, the closest I can see us working together for the moment is to mutually promote opium use in Qing China; increased demand throughout the land should cause an increase to the price that both of us can fetch, and since we're working from opposite ends we're unlikely to directly interfere with each other. Though, IIRC you might have been trying to replace opium use with marijuana or something so you might not be for it.

Mortenkam said:
Prince Chun will attempt to establish contact to the religious rebels in Mongolia to covertly support their rebellion against the Soviets and friendly relations.
[...]
Prince Chun will attempt to put together a relief force to help the Xinjiang Triumvirate deal with the rebellion.
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I see logistical problems in your future. Some folks here are trying to reform the whole logistical system while simultaneously fighting in the south (an impressive undertaking on its own), sending an expedition to the northwest, maybe having a sort of civil war start in the northeast and also trying to supply fighters in the north. Also, what are the Qing intentions up north? You haven't officially recognized their departure, right? Would starting friendly relations count as that? If so, that might give the appearance of giving up vast tracks of land and potentially undo the good vibes from the return of those treaty ports.

Edit: Also I changed my vote, made it a bit more proactive on Mongolia since people are paying attention to that at the expense of Zongchang's personal security. We'll see if that proves a wise decision. @kilopi505 was right, six is a hard number to stay limited to.
 
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BurningLaugh said:
5. Call for a private meeting with Zhang Xueliang and Wu Peifu in the hopes of easing tensions between the two by emphasizing the fact that they all want to achieve the same goal and that they must remain united in all fields to avoid showing weakness to the enemy.
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Who is the enemy really? Wu is the biggest threat to the survival of clique right now. If that not been the case, i would be preparing for marching back into Manchuria. Like all my plans since the crushing defeat had been keeping the clique alive and preparing for the second Manchurian war.
 
VoidZero said:
Who is the enemy really? Wu is the biggest threat to the survival of clique right now. If that not been the case, i would be preparing for marching back into Manchuria. Like all my plans since the crushing defeat had been keeping the clique alive and preparing for the second Manchurian war.
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Neither of you are the enemy. The fact that we are in this situation to begin with is shameful. I understand your perspective and the actions that you've taken. I'm mostly waiting to see what @ZealousThoughts does for this turn.
I would also suggest not going to war with Wu!
Invite the dude to dinner or something I don't know.
 
BurningLaugh said:
Neither of you are the enemy. The fact that we are in this situation to begin with is shameful. I understand your perspective and the actions that you've taken. I'm mostly waiting to see what @ZealousThoughts does for this turn.
I would also suggest not going to war with Wu!
Invite the dude to dinner or something I don't know.
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What do you consider enemy number one, though? Asking for a friend.
 
Kipeci said:
You are trying to spy on my lands and funnel all the info to nationalists and anarchists which seems a bit less than friendly? I don't think I've done you a bad turn to deserve such focus, especially when I'm so far from those folks and it may well end up splitting the efforts of your network.

Then again, I suppose it is low-hanging fruit given that much of the civilian population likely despise Zongchang and certain elements of his military may be rather mercenary in temperament. Anyway, the closest I can see us working together for the moment is to mutually promote opium use in Qing China; increased demand throughout the land should cause an increase to the price that both of us can fetch, and since we're working from opposite ends we're unlikely to directly interfere with each other. Though, IIRC you might have been trying to replace opium use with marijuana or something so you might not be for it.


I see logistical problems in your future. Some folks here are trying to reform the whole logistical system while simultaneously fighting in the south (an impressive undertaking on its own), sending an expedition to the northwest, maybe having a sort of civil war start in the northeast and also trying to supply fighters in the north. Also, what are the Qing intentions up north? You haven't officially recognized their departure, right? Would starting friendly relations count as that? If so, that might give the appearance of giving up vast tracks of land and potentially undo the good vibes from the return of those treaty ports.

Edit: Also I changed my vote, made it a bit more proactive on Mongolia since people are paying attention to that at the expense of Zongchang's personal security. We'll see if that proves a wise decision. @kilopi505 was right, six is a hard number to stay limited to.
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Well it's less you and more about Japan since you are Japan's vassal.

If Japan decides it wants to take China in its entirety once and for all, there will be signs in Manchuria and Taiwan so I can give advance warning to everyone instantly.

If Qing decides to go take a swing at the South or at Manchuria, I can give advance warning to everyone not Qing or Sheng Shicai so they could take advantage of it if they want to.

As for business oportunities...a sufficiently bold gesture would be a good start.

A passenger and cargo shipping corporation registered in Zhang Zhongchang's name connecting Zhuhai with Fengtian. The Tong will register dual powered (sails and motors) junks with this company once started.
 
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kilopi505 said:
Well it's less you and more about Japan since you are Japan's vassal.

If Japan decides it wants to take China in its entirety once and for all, there will be signs in Manchuria and Taiwan so I can give advance warning to everyone instantly.

If Qing decides to go take a swing at the South or at Manchuria, I can give advance warning to everyone not Qing or Sheng Shicai so they could take advantage of it if they want to.

As for business oportunities...a sufficiently bold gesture would be a good start.

A passenger and cargo shipping corporation registered in Zhang Zhongchang's name connecting Zhuhai with Fengtian. The Tong will register sailing junks with this company once started.
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It seems more relevant to me to spy in Dalian/Ryojun/Port Arthur as I'm pretty sure that that's where the IJA is based, it's accessible to you via the sea and it's a more concentrated place to focus your efforts rather than the vast expanse of Manchuria and Qing. But, you do what you will. I can hardly expect to anticipate such espionage in person, after all.

I'll think about your option for the next turn, as this one is a bit full up. If dipping my toes in smuggling from Jehol and promoting vice in Greater Zhili turn out well, then why not try to branch out? That said, I am a bit hesitant because your group has had its flashes of, well, let's say 'indiscretion'. I'm pretty sure that the Japanese still have a death squad lined up for you, slapping Zongchang's name right there on a collaboration project could be quite harmful if it's associated with ex. uprising on Taiwan and leaking of military secrets. Maybe in a more deniable way, or limiting our potential collaboration to areas of coastal Qing.
 
Kipeci said:
It seems more relevant to me to spy in Dalian/Ryojun/Port Arthur as I'm pretty sure that that's where the IJA is based, it's accessible to you via the sea and it's a more concentrated place to focus your efforts rather than the vast expanse of Manchuria and Qing. But, you do what you will. I can hardly expect to anticipate such espionage in person, after all.

I'll think about your option for the next turn, as this one is a bit full up. If dipping my toes in smuggling from Jehol and promoting vice in Greater Zhili turn out well, then why not try to branch out? That said, I am a bit hesitant because your group has had its flashes of, well, let's say 'indiscretion'. I'm pretty sure that the Japanese still have a death squad lined up for you, slapping Zongchang's name right there on a collaboration project could be quite harmful if it's associated with ex. uprising on Taiwan and leaking of military secrets. Maybe in a more deniable way, or limiting our potential collaboration to areas of coastal Qing.
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The attempt at making a Japanese Empire civil war, colonies vs. Home islands for leadership of the Empire?

It's an assymetrical attempt to take the fight to Japan.

Limit the collaboration to coastal Qing? Why not try to ship to all ports in Eastern Asia instead of just China then as cover?
 
kilopi505 said:
The attempt at making a Japanese Empire civil war, colonies vs. Home islands for leadership of the Empire?

It's an assymetrical attempt to take the fight to Japan.

Limit the collaboration to coastal Qing? Why not try to ship to all ports in Eastern Asia instead of just China then as cover?
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That's the exact sort of thing I don't want Zongchang's name on when the pamphlets get discovered.

I say limit to Qing because I don't want any association when your dudes get up to sketchy stuff in Japan or other foreign powers. You just got booted out of Portuguese colonies and were recently terminated with extreme prejudice from Japanese ones before painstakingly gaining ground in Taiwan. I don't have anything to lose from poor relations with Qing and their enforcement is corrupt and bad anyway making discovery less likely, but Zongchang can suffer greatly if he pisses off Japan or another colonial power in the area.I guess Thailand is independent and not much of a concern either, but they're pretty minor and I don't want to get risk from other ports as mentioned above.

That's why I'd prefer to limit any collaboration to coastal Qing at the moment.
 
Kipeci said:
That's the exact sort of thing I don't want Zongchang's name on when the pamphlets get discovered.

I say limit to Qing because I don't want any association when your dudes get up to sketchy stuff in Japan or other foreign powers. You just got booted out of Portuguese colonies and were recently terminated with extreme prejudice from Japanese ones before painstakingly gaining ground in Taiwan. I don't have anything to lose from poor relations with Qing and their enforcement is corrupt and bad anyway making discovery less likely, but Zongchang can suffer greatly if he pisses off Japan or another colonial power in the area.I guess Thailand is independent and not much of a concern either, but they're pretty minor and I don't want to get risk from other ports as mentioned above.

That's why I'd prefer to limit any collaboration to coastal Qing at the moment.
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Ok. Coastal Qing areas for now it is.

BurningLaugh said:
@Kipeci
@kilopi505
Would you both be interested or open to the possibility of cooperating with the Qing?
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...historically the Tongs were originally Ming loyalist, anti-Qing resistance groups that degenerated into criminal gangs because...no supporting power backing the resistance.

I don't think Emperor man is gonna tolerate cooperation or even the existence of the oldest remaining enemies of the Qing Dynasty from all the way back in the 1600's. Or else your character's gonna be beaten to death too.

Same for Zhang Zhongchang, with him ruling Manchuria, homeland of the Qing.

I predict Emperor man to take a swing at Manchuria and Fujian and Xiamen as soon as the South and Nortwest is back in Qing control and they had several years of preparation.
 
kilopi505 said:
...historically the Tongs were originally Ming loyalist, anti-Qing resistance groups that degenerated into criminal gangs because...no supporting power backing the resistance.
I don't think Emperor man is gonna tolerate cooperation or even the existence of the oldest remaining enemies of the Qing Dynasty from all the way back in the 1600's. Or else your character's gonna be beaten to death too.
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Which reminds me that Tongs did have a presence in various China towns on North America. Sea for smuggling empire if you took advantage of the looming global depression. You know the saying about unemployed being enticed by criminal elements. Dear Cao who got death by stick was too bold in working with Red Russia, as opposed to slivers of Ming.
 
kilopi505 said:
Ok. Coastal Qing areas for now it is.



...historically the Tongs were originally Ming loyalist, anti-Qing resistance groups that degenerated into criminal gangs because...no supporting power backing the resistance.

I don't think Emperor man is gonna tolerate cooperation or even the existence of the oldest remaining enemies of the Qing Dynasty from all the way back in the 1600's. Or else your character's gonna be beaten to death too.

Same for Zhang Zhongchang, with him ruling Manchuria, homeland of the Qing.

I predict Emperor man to take a swing at Manchuria and Fujian and Xiamen as soon as the South and Nortwest is back in Qing control and they had several years of preparation.
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Well my friend. This is a new era very different from the days of the Ming-Qing War. A new era requires a new Qing and a new China, so I seek to foster positive relations with those that seek to support the people.

Plus Zhang Zhongchang isn't directly or completely hated by the Qing. It's understandable what he's done and his actions are impressive. The question is: do the japs hold his collar? If yes then shame for war is inevitable, but if no then he is in a prime position to aid China against the Islanders
 
BurningLaugh said:
Well my friend. This is a new era very different from the days of the Ming-Qing War. A new era requires a new Qing and a new China, so I seek to foster positive relations with those that seek to support the people.

Plus Zhang Zhongchang isn't directly or completely hated by the Qing. It's understandable what he's done and his actions are impressive. The question is: do the japs hold his collar? If yes then shame for war is inevitable, but if no then he is in a prime position to aid China against the Islanders
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Can the Qing dynasty turn into a Constitutional Monarchy, and Emperor man stays only as a figurehead ala United Kingdom style, and make peace with the KMT and call for elections to a parliament?
 
kilopi505 said:
Can the Qing dynasty turn into a Constitutional Monarchy, and Emperor man stays only as a figurehead ala United Kingdom style, and make peace with the KMT and call for elections to a parliament?
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I can't guarantee it since I don't have total control, but we're more leaning to the Emperor keeping a role in governance though with restrictions on his power. More of a Roman Style or Ancient China Style government structure. Most likely a constitution to limit government power while setting up Committees to do different things, each committee structured differently with some being chosen by the people other earned through merit and others appointed by the divine mandate of heaven.
 
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