Chronicles of Nations - Civ Quest

KnownParadox said:

Yes yes, but I predict a theme, "we'll do it next turn." Oh really? Hmm, where have I heard that little phrase before? Oh right, almost every civ quest I've been in, and really? How often has that worked out for us? Hmm? We might start the Temple project, but then oh wait we need more econ or whatever, next turn then? Something else came up huh? And then it continues until we have Forester raising parties on our front doorstep and suddenly no more fucking Golden Age. Oh, goodbye Magic then huh?

Vote Magic, it makes sense, do I need to prove more?

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It isnt just about we'll do it later
That single gift isnt worth the rest.
Any combination of two is worth more then the magic, let alone 3 or 4.
Let's say your right
We never pick magic.
The alternative?
A longer golden age in which we get multiple other worthy gains.
There is a reason those are options too, it's because they have worth to them.
2nd, I'm not for the temple, I want the tech, specifically military, then a baby boom or magic after.
Third, your beating a dead horse. You say that "oh we wont do it next turn" based on the fact that no one ever does that in civ quests but the say "the foresters might find us" when it's quite obvious that they aren't even looking for us or know where to look to begin with. And it's already going far enough assuming that just encountering the foresters again automatically ends the golden age. Surely you should know there is a higher chance of everyone actually picking magic next turn over the foresters finding us. If you overestimate the magic and toss everything else, an entire golden age, a side to reach that end, chances are it will bite us in the ass later, especially since we have the potential to keep on rolling. It's literally a matter of patience. Doyou eat your food now? Or wait an hour and get double? If you wait another hour you get three servings.
I am sure we can afford to spend a turn or two wisely and making sure we can accommodate our choices with our golden age.

Cariyaga said:

@KnownParadox You know that Magic is winning by about 20, right?

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Yes, but I've seen votes turn around from worse, dont want any sudden comebacks, so I'm just campaigning correctly, just because something is winning, doesnt mean you stop helping see?

Knight Draco said:

That single gift isnt worth the rest.
Any combination of two is worth more then the magic, let alone 3 or 4.

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I heavily disagree with that notion sir, again, we dont need a Baby Boom right now our population is fine.

Knight Draco said:

I want the tech, specifically military

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Any current military tech will be effectively rendered moot due to the sheer power and versatility that Magic grant's us, seeing as we're in the goddamn Stone Age, and if we start early on our path to greatness, we'll be ahead of the curve when some other opposing group realizes how to Magic properly.

Knight Draco said:

Doyou eat your food now? Or wait an hour and get double? If you wait another hour you get three servings.

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But what if that first portion was a grand meal fit for a king along with a note on how to make this food, while the other servings are small plates of food that could be found at your local McDonalds? Than your metaphor breaks down here.

Knight Draco said:

I am sure we can afford to spend a turn or two wisely and making sure we can accommodate our choices with our golden age.

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Considering SV's tendencies, no, I dont think we can.

Vote Magic, the best force multiplier.

KnownParadox said:

I heavily disagree with that notion sir, again, we dont need a Baby Boom right now our population is fine.

Any current military tech will be effectively rendered moot due to the sheer power and versatility that Magic grant's us, seeing as we're in the goddamn Stone Age, and if we start early on our path to greatness, we'll be ahead of the curve when some other opposing group realizes how to Magic properly.

But what if that first portion was a grand meal fit for a king along with a note on how to make this food, while the other servings are small plates of food that could be found at your local McDonalds? Than your metaphor breaks down here.

Considering SV's tendencies, no, I dont think we can.

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1. I wasnt talking baby boom, I was talking tech and then baby boom or magic

2."sheer versatality" you do know we are getting the magic of a single goddess?
We dont know which one
And we dont know how it will work.
We can only make estimations on what it will be for each goddess. The same thing about being ahead of the curve for magic can be said for science.

3. But that first portion isnt a grand meal, you dont even know the extent or variety it will be. Further more, one meal cannot feed you for a whole day, its three meals a day. Your argument against it breaks down because we dont know what exactly that magic is, you say it's great and grand when we barely have an idea of what it could be. It could be some minor foresight magic from allseeres or some healing magic from the
Another goddess. The possible results are many, but there will only be one in the end.

4. Obviously not considering what's currently in the lead.

Note: magicians are good and all
But it's not like we will get magic that makes them immune to arrows or spears. Military innovations can still make or break battles, just like how we beat the foresters, our blood was already blessed, but we didnt have magic. We still made due with weaponry.

[X] Gain a Baby Boom. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Martial)

pretty sure it gives a boost to eco/temp eco while it is on going.

Well the problem with Baby Booms is dealing with the issue of essentially everyone having babies nonstop and then you are on fire from the effects of suddenly exploding populations and screwed gender rights....granted, PoC rode that bloody baby boom like 2 centuries.

Knight Draco said:

I am sure we can afford to spend a turn or two wisely and making sure we can accommodate our choices with our golden age.

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See? "We'll -do-it-later syndrome doesn't just hit megaprojects!

True, given magic's popularity it is likely to win any vote it participates in, but it is still subject to calls of "Please vote for something else now, then we'll give you what you want later, promise".

I say nay! Do not listen to the planmakers in their ivory towers and their empty promises, for they will not give you what you want! Instead, you should vote for what really matters, and go after your heart's desire! The only naster we should listen to is ourselves!

Also if more people would vote for megaprojects, that would make me very happy.

Omegahugger said:

Also if more people would vote for megaprojects, that would make me very happy.

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If the Golden Age is gone next turn I absolutely will. If so I'm obligated to vote for Venerating the Pantheon to keep the Golden Age going.

e: Well, also because I want more veneration going on

Because it is near certain to maintain our golden age, plus the additional innovation will keep us from being rolled up by our southern neighbors.
[X] Gain random military technology. (-1 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial, -1 Temp Mystic)

and approval:
[X] Gain a Baby Boom. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Martial)

[X] Unlock the Magic of a Goddess. (-2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)
Actual practical magic sounds amazing.
[X] Gain a Baby Boom. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Martial)
A high population helps us defend ourselves, and baby boom has other really beneficial effects.
[X] Gain a Hero. (-2 Temp Econ AND -2 Temp Diplo or 2 Temp Mystic or -2 Temp Culture)[/QUOTE]
Hero units are very powerful assets.
Next turn definitely we should do a sec settlements action to raise our temp econ regen to 5. I'm thinking pair it with sec trade.
Raising our temp econ regen to 5 will allow us to actually start on mountain passage, since it'll let us do sec actions on the megaproject simultaneous with other stuff.

Cariyaga said:

How is this a problem? Building stuff takes time.

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It does. However, the problem here is that building it right now requires us to do nothing else for that amount of time, whereas if we wait until we have higher econ we can do other things simultaneous with building it.

Cariyaga said:

We aren't going to fall behind other civilizations, because we have a vassal that we can call on to help us out.

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We can't rely on our vassal to bail us out and fix our lagging-behind econ/population after/while doing something reckless. That's making a lot of assumptions regarding their willingness and ability to do so.
I find it highly improbable/unreliable that the Merntir will be able and willing to invest massive amounts of resources in bringing us up to par, something entirely avoidable with a bit of patience on our part.
Waiting a couple (at this point single) turns is much preferable to being locked into building nothing other than the project for an unknown number of turns.

Knight Draco said:

These options come every mid turn so long as there is a golden age. Meaning if we keep the golden age, we get to do this again later. And again later. And again later until we lose it.

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If we keep the golden age, yeah. I'd prefer not having the risk of losing our chance at magic.

Oshha said:

Seryn is a Mystic/Tech Hero

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*Your'Brain-exe has stopped working. Reboot, Y/N?*

Seriously? A mystic + tech hero exactly on time on when we could activate a new type of magic they would likely deepen our understandings on?

Knight Draco said:

Third, your beating a dead horse. You say that "oh we wont do it next turn" based on the fact that no one ever does that in civ quests but the say "the foresters might find us" when it's quite obvious that they aren't even looking for us or know where to look to begin with. And it's already going far enough assuming that just encountering the foresters again automatically ends the golden age.

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Hypothetical situation, I just chose that as everyone will understand it, the suddenly bad thing is here could be anything, dragon on our village, tsunami, earthquake, plague, magic plague, all things that could kick a small civ like us in the balls while we puddled away with a temple or a mountain road, all good things yes, but much less important than fucking Magic. We've also proven that our military skill is just as good as the nearby civs what with the century long war we just got out of, so I really dont think a random military boost will be needed anytime soon.

Knight Draco said:

2."sheer versatality" you do know we are getting the magic of a single goddess?

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Yes, a Goddess which represents, hunting, community, helping people, and I'm pretty sure maybe farming.

All I'm saying is if we get Magic that does any of those things it will be worth it.

Hunting? Some sort of magic that helps with killing things, maybe some stealth.

Community? Some sort of efficiency spells, telepathy? Empathy? Battle Meditation?

Helping people? Farming? Healing magic. Need I say more?

I'm just spitballing potential magic from the Goddess, so obviously we're not going to get everything amazing in one go. But we might get some it, and that, I think will be worth losing a Golden Age for. And it might not even lose us a Golden Age if we get lucky.

Honesty though I think the magic we'll get will be generally purpose D&D style magic, as long as we find a way, we can do it. Fireballs, mage hand, stone working, not those specifically, but magic with no thematic restrictions nonetheless.

We even have a Mystic/Tech Hero right now! A perfect storm for Magic! The synergy will be amazing!

Vote Magic, for power beyond our imagining.

Oshha said:

Incidentally, you have rolled up about half of the heroes in the game so far and stolen enough of the others to have ended up with a grand half of all of the heroes in history so far.

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I'm wondering why we aren't getting a hero-focused legacy out of that, dear GM. Especially after we had one life for more than 100 years apparently, who then proceeded to defeat our rival with Logistics, leading to us assimilating the diplo-hero and then finishing things while the diplo-hero is still living by vassalizing the enemy, only for next turn to spawn a new hero, this one that of double-focused on mystic/tech.

Maybe influenced by our Born Equal- value, we could get the Tradition of spawning that tiny bit more heroes because we allow looking for them among the parts of the populace others ignore.

Or get some kind of "heroes have on average greater Mystic stat than they should have?", since the old-living one and the next hero we spawned had both heroic mystic stat?

Please, the last thing we need is another civilization that has to rely on a constant stream of Heroes to keep going.

Random Member said:

Please, the last thing we need is another civilization that has to rely on a constant stream of Heroes to keep going.

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C'mon, it wasn't that bad.

We just kept rolling badly in certain things, only for our heroes come out of nowhere to wreck things for the better.

Somebodynobody10 said:

C'mon, it wasn't that bad.

We just kept rolling badly in certain things, only for our heroes come out of nowhere to wreck things for the better.

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It was bad because we were a dying corpse that just kept shambling forward like a zombie. It was painful to read.

How do you tally?

Edit: Nvm

Somebodynobody10 said:

I'm wondering why we aren't getting a hero-focused legacy out of that, dear GM.

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Why would you? Spawning higher than average amount of Heroes? Stealing a couple? Your Heroes did hero stuff?

Ymarn ended up famous enough to become a goddess in your pantheon and change your government type and kept your economy from suffering the fighting, but that is about it. Wuran got a favourable peace for the Merntir (as a Merntir Hero) and then managed to accidentally cause a civil war amongst the Merntir whilst converting some of them (as an Arthwyd Hero).

While Ymarn was somewhat exceptional for her longevity, neither she or Wuran did anything out of what I would have expected from a hero. They did nothing major by the standards of Heroes beyond Ymarn living for a long time and a single person living for a long time wouldn't get you a legacy. Ymarn ended up famous and culturally relevant enough to become a goddess in your pantheon and change your government type and kept your economy from suffering the fighting, but that is about it. Wuran got a favourable peace for the Merntir (as a Merntir Hero) and then managed to accidentally cause a civil war amongst the Merntir whilst converting some of them (as an Arthwyd Hero).

Just to make things clear, nothing that Ymarn or Wuran did was beyond what was expected from a Hero apart from Ymarn living a ridiculous long time (that only gets you having her for a longer period of time and being seen as special by the People). If I was to give Legacies for Heroes doing above average and heroic deeds, then you guys would get the short of end of the stick. You haven't achieve anything yet that another Hero in the region hasn't already done already for their civ.

Somebodynobody10 said:

while the diplo-hero is still living by vassalizing the enemy

Maybe influenced by our Born Equal- value, we could get the Tradition of spawning that tiny bit more heroes because we allow looking for them among the parts of the populace others ignore.

Or get some kind of "heroes have on average greater Mystic stat than they should have?", since the old-living one and the next hero we spawned had both heroic mystic stat?

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This is wrong. Wuran died halfway into the Merntir Civil War. She had been dead for decades when you vassalised the Merntir.

Maybe if you were to upgrade that Value, but the majority of the voters seem to prefer getting more magic to upgrading a Value.

Two doesn't equal a pattern and certainly not a Legacy. You would need to consistently do that to get a Legacy from it.

Legacies come from either doing something major for a long and continuous amount of time or doing something so exceptional for the first time in history as a Civ (and not as an individual) that it will be remember for generations and can shape your culture and how your society is viewed. You don't get from get from mildly interesting things or something above average.

The only exception to the above is something like the Chosen of Arthryn where you have what is basically a status, but is effectively permanent barring exceptional circumstances so it goes under Legacies rather than amongst the other Statuses.

To get a Legacy, you need to do something like being the first to gain magic or to discover iron or to build a temple or to rushbuild a megaproject or to gain multiple subordinates of the same type.

Omegahugger said:

See? "We'll -do-it-later syndrome doesn't just hit megaprojects!

True, given magic's popularity it is likely to win any vote it participates in, but it is still subject to calls of "Please vote for something else now, then we'll give you what you want later, promise".

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that's just blatantly cherry picking parts of someone's post. If you look at the very first part of the post, it bring up the situation if he was right, in which I argued that it'd be better to have multiple other gifts over the magic that may end the golden age. Better to make the most out of something then the least.

KnownParadox said:

Hypothetical situation, I just chose that as everyone will understand it, the suddenly bad thing is here could be anything, dragon on our village, tsunami, earthquake, plague, magic plague, all things that could kick a small civ like us in the balls while we puddled away with a temple or a mountain road, all good things yes, but much less important than fucking Magic. We've also proven that our military skill is just as good as the nearby civs what with the century long war we just got out of, so I really dont think a random military boost will be needed anytime soon.

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the same could be said for a random magic boost. The difference is, we could be doing multiple good things, but the bad that kicks us to the dirt is the magic because it could end the golden age. You are assuming that there is no physical way it will not be voted for ever after this next midturn, when there is a fiar chance it will be. The argument everyone is making isn't that we shouldn't go magic, its when we go magic. because at one point we lose the golden age, another we won't. Thinking that just because "every" civ quest you are in never picks the choice after and that there is no way magic will be picked later is nothing short of the gambler's fallacy.

Also, our military wasn't actually better. WE had numerical superiority, but in terms of soldier to soldier we actually weren't doing as well against the myrantir. We beat them by attrition, much less then superiority. They lost their raids, but that's mostly because they were attacking our home soil, the same could be said for our attacks on the mountain village. However, compared to the myrantir, we were slightly superior in multiple regards. However, with the foresters, such a discrepancy doesn't exist to our favor. They no doubt have the numbers, the experience, and the tech to more then put us on edge (as everyone is obviously cautious of settling those damn upriver plains) to the point where we are lucky that they don't know where we are otherwise we might've been stuck in a two front war then. Getting military tech would be a preperation towards that war.

KnownParadox said:

Yes, a Goddess which represents, hunting, community, helping people, and I'm pretty sure maybe farming.

All I'm saying is if we get Magic that does any of those things it will be worth it.

Hunting? Some sort of magic that helps with killing things, maybe some stealth.

Community? Some sort of efficiency spells, telepathy? Empathy? Battle Meditation?

Helping people? Farming? Healing magic. Need I say more?

I'm just spitballing potential magic from the Goddess, so obviously we're not going to get everything amazing in one go. But we might get some it, and that, I think will be worth losing a Golden Age for. And it might not even lose us a Golden Age if we get lucky.

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yes, potential magic, because we don't know what it really will be. Even then those are guesses. Just because its magic doesn't mean its amazing, we might get something sub par or bad. Then again, it might not even be anything from those. Its a literal mystery box. At one point you could get something like a laser gun from black ops, or another you end up with the teddy bear. I could use your same logic with the techs. Maybe we get catapults and walls? maybe we get actual ships or the wheel. Or maybe we get iron working or find chemistry stuff. the possibilities and varieties are endless guys! we don't even risk losing the golden age to boot! pick tech over magic!
its the same thing regardless as magic is just science we don't understand yet.

KnownParadox said:

We even have a Mystic/Tech Hero right now! A perfect storm for Magic! The synergy will be amazing!

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Yes, the synergy would be amazing. Except there may be none because choosing magic may end the golden age and we would never get another chance for tech. Thus no synergy with tech and magic.
We literally have a shot at getting writing (you know, writing things down). That's a more important building block for our entire nations then a magic that will revolve around one or two aspects. It goes both ways. Those options are there because they have worth to them, but don't let the gold in front of you cause you to neglect the famine around you.

[X] Gain random general technology. (-1 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Econ, -1 Mystic)
[X] Gain random military technology. (-1 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial, -1 Temp Mystic)

With our extended life spans wouldnt we get more tech boom because the one who are focusing on it live longer to experiment on other ideas? So a focus on tech could lead to a whole host of sudden tech maybe?

Alright, what are the options in the eyes of players believe that wouldn't end the Golden Age just yet?

Somebodynobody10 said:

Alright, what are the options in the eyes of players believe that wouldn't end the Golden Age just yet?

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any option that doesn't require either -2 culture or -2 mystic.
Diplo i am not exactly sure about but that one we should be able to get by with.
i.e.
these 4
[] Gain random general technology. (-1 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Econ, -1 Mystic)
[] Gain random military technology. (-1 Temp Econ, -2 Temp Martial, -1 Temp Mystic)
[] Gain a Baby Boom. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Martial)
[] Gain random social concepts. (-1 Temp Diplo, -1 Temp Econ, -1 Temp Culture, -1 Temp Mystic)
to get a better understanding of why its a threat, we only have 1 culture and mystic, we go into neg if we choose the other options, which potentially ends the golden age if the reward isn't something in that category.

I mean, if we pick something that ends the Golden Age then we get an idea for what a Golden Age can withstand. That's good information, and we're in a decent spot right now so we can afford for everything to not be golden.

(Almost not an attempt to convince people to vote Temple despite the costs)

[X] Unlock the Magic of a Goddess. (-2 Temp Mystic, -2 Temp Culture)

[x] Upgrade a random Value. (-2 Temp Diplo, -2 Temp Culture)

Omegahugger said:

I mean, if we pick something that ends the Golden Age then we get an idea for what a Golden Age can withstand. That's good information, and we're in a decent spot right now so we can afford for everything to not be golden.

(Almost not an attempt to convince people to vote Temple despite the costs)

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I am pretty sure anyone can tell that negatives in something is not what a golden age can withstand. Keep in mind if the golden age ends and all those options we could have chosen go away, so too does the temple option. As these are given during the midturns of golden ages.