So, what's people's reasoing for Erika? From what I think I'm reading, she gives us ground attack experience at the cost of making anything involving the Kriegsmarine much harder. Janzen gives us that through access to his squadron, plus some engineering experience and minus Kriegsmarine troubles. Windisch seems to have much more pull and is thus also probably capable of securing ground attack expertise, while also giving us valuable prestige with the Navy. At best she has some more ground attack experience beyond the sufficient access the other two have.

Don't neglect the political side of this quest, folks. We've already gotten caustic warnings from the GM to not pretend we can dodge political issues. Nobody's going to judge you for not being politically progressive in this choice.
 
Don't neglect the political side of this quest, folks. We've already gotten caustic warnings from the GM to not pretend we can dodge political issues. Nobody's going to judge you for not being politically progressive in this choice.
It wasn't really caustic by his standards. If you want that, you need to propose something like a blow-forward G11.

But yes, I don't see a reason to pick Hess. Yes, she's a ground attacker, but so is Janzen. And I would appreciate good relations with the Marine so that we can borrow their 8" 6" 4.1"/5" guns for future heavies.
 
[x] Hauptmann zur Himmel Johannes Janzen

[x] Kaptain Jacob Adler: An up-and-coming proponent of the Luftwaffe's new Battlefield Support doctrine, who worked with them and the Kriegsmarine in the new Flugzeugpeitsche project.
[x] Jan Mittlewesk: An engineer from the Thryssen gun labratory interested in seeing if there's any sort of new weapon he can deliver for the project.
[x] Etatmäßiger Percius Vogt: A master weaponsmith and operator at one point or another of every gun the Irromic Empire has used since black powder from the Ulm Proving Ground.
[x] Vizewachtmeister Mathias Lang: An anti-air gunner from the Great Pig War who was placed into medical reserve after Balhk paratroopers attacked his position.

After 7734's instructional cartoon, youtube suggested this one:
 
[X] Hauptmann Erika Hess
[X] Edmund Volkstuppe: A young reserve kaptain who's spent most of his career in the artillery, Volkstruppe has an unnering knowledge about light artillery and what advancements have been going on in your old backyard.
[X] Kaptain Jacob Adler: An up-and-coming proponent of the Luftwaffe's new Battlefield Support doctrine, who worked with them and the Kriegsmarine in the new Flugzeugpeitsche project.
[X] Jan Mittlewesk: An engineer from the Thryssen gun labratory interested in seeing if there's any sort of new weapon he can deliver for the project.
[X] Vizewachtmeister Mathias Lang: An anti-air gunner from the Great Pig War who was placed into medical reserve after Balhk paratroopers attacked his position.
 
It wasn't really caustic by his standards. If you want that, you need to propose something like a blow-forward G11.

But yes, I don't see a reason to pick Hess. Yes, she's a ground attacker, but so is Janzen. And I would appreciate good relations with the Marine so that we can borrow their 8" 6" 4.1"/5" guns for future heavies.
Not sure if we would want any naval gun. Those things tend to have lower muzzel velocity and larger shells than what we would need on a tank. They also are have service lives far longer than any tank can hope to achieve at about 4000 rounds resulting in unnecessary mass and a gun that would out live it's tank 4 time over.
 
[X] Hauptmann zur Himmel Johannes Janzen

[X] Jan Mittlewesk: An engineer from the Thryssen gun labratory interested in seeing if there's any sort of new weapon he can deliver for the project.
[X] Vizewachtmeister Mathias Lang: An anti-air gunner from the Great Pig War who was placed into medical reserve after Balhk paratroopers attacked his position.
[X] Edmund Volkstuppe: A young reserve kaptain who's spent most of his career in the artillery, Volkstruppe has an unnering knowledge about light artillery and what advancements have been going on in your old backyard.
[X] Kaptain Jacob Adler: An up-and-coming proponent of the Luftwaffe's new Battlefield Support doctrine, who worked with them and the Kriegsmarine in the new Flugzeugpeitsche project.
Adhoc vote count started by King50000 on Dec 27, 2018 at 12:40 PM, finished with 17 posts and 13 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by King50000 on Dec 28, 2018 at 3:53 PM, finished with 26 posts and 15 votes.
 
@OneirosTheWriter wrong thread, man.

It wasn't really caustic by his standards. If you want that, you need to propose something like a blow-forward G11.

>MFW


Not sure if we would want any naval gun. Those things tend to have lower muzzel velocity and larger shells than what we would need on a tank. They also are have service lives far longer than any tank can hope to achieve at about 4000 rounds resulting in unnecessary mass and a gun that would out live it's tank 4 time over.

The data on the OTL 10,5/65 I can find leads to a barrel life of 2,950 rounds, which is pretty high; but when I get to the 15/60 (mounted on the Nuremberg class) I only get 500 rounds. The 12,7/45, meanwhile (used on early Z-series destroyers) has about 1,950 rounds barrel life. When it comes to naval guns, there's a lot of variation- although I think for an AA gun you all will want higher barrel life over lower.

Source is Navweaps, a great site for this sort of thing.
 
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Not sure if we would want any naval gun. Those things tend to have lower muzzel velocity and larger shells than what we would need on a tank. They also are have service lives far longer than any tank can hope to achieve at about 4000 rounds resulting in unnecessary mass and a gun that would out live it's tank 4 time over.
We're not!Germany, not not!USA, velocity is going to be fine if we grab the equivalent of a 10.5/65 SK C/33 (possibly even shortened). Slow guns are mostly a US/UK thing in the calibers we're talking about, the Axis guns were quite fast (topping out at the 10cm/65 Type 98 reaching 1km/s!). And they generally throw heavier shells than equal-caliber land guns too.

I don't have anything against a modification to shorten/lighten it, but modifying a naval gun is going to be far faster than developing such a gun from scratch. And I think our artillery park in that caliber has howitzers, not guns, so we cannot make us of that.
 
[X] Hauptmann zur Himmel Johannes Janzen
[X] Edmund Volkstuppe: A young reserve kaptain who's spent most of his career in the artillery, Volkstruppe has an unnering knowledge about light artillery and what advancements have been going on in your old backyard.
[X] Kaptain Jacob Adler: An up-and-coming proponent of the Luftwaffe's new Battlefield Support doctrine, who worked with them and the Kriegsmarine in the new Flugzeugpeitsche project.
[X] Jan Mittlewesk: An engineer from the Thryssen gun labratory interested in seeing if there's any sort of new weapon he can deliver for the project.
[X] Vizewachtmeister Mathias Lang: An anti-air gunner from the Great Pig War who was placed into medical reserve after Balhk paratroopers attacked his position.
 
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We're not!Germany, not not!USA, velocity is going to be fine if we grab the equivalent of a 10.5/65 SK C/33 (possibly even shortened). Slow guns are mostly a US/UK thing in the calibers we're talking about, the Axis guns were quite fast (topping out at the 10cm/65 Type 98 reaching 1km/s!). And they generally throw heavier shells than equal-caliber land guns too.

I don't have anything against a modification to shorten/lighten it, but modifying a naval gun is going to be far faster than developing such a gun from scratch. And I think our artillery park in that caliber has howitzers, not guns, so we cannot make us of that.

In was looking at German guns, every other 10.5cm gun had MVs in the 750mps range. Only the 10.5/65 had high MV and that has the problem of being 4 tonnes in mass. No we can't just shorten the barrel that lowers the MV too, so we may as well just get one of the older guns or a smaller caliber gun we are considering that.

The other alternative would be to make the barrel wall thinner but that would require you to redesign the entire gun and ammo so the barrel does not burst while shooting, killing the entire gun crew. At that point you may as well make a new gun.

Honestly for NotGermany making tank guns larger than 9 cm is going to be a pain until we can find ways to make monobloc barrels viable which at this point would require us to steal it from the NotFrench.
 
Annendum to Previous
You know, it never really sunk in for me why so fucking many people were in supply columns, or in artillery units, until I actually started looking over numbers like these while researching a project. Even an hour's barrage from a unit goes through some fucklarious weight per artillery battalion.

Fire two shells a minute for an hour, at ~20kg a shell, plus a couple kg for the shell-boxes, and that's a quarter-ton per gun, and a ton per battery. Early wave Wehrmacht used 3 battalions of 12x10.5cm leichte Feldhaubitze, so 36 guns is nine whole tons of ammunition gone in an hour, without even considering the 15cm battalion they also had, or the weight of mortars used down the chain. So that's about four trucks loaded with ammo that need to arrive on the hour every hour to keep that division in supply just for the 10.5s, assuming everyone is conveniently located. Keep that firing up for a day of heavy combat and you're going to need a train load to replenish that unit by itself.

...

Sorry, that was a bit of a sidetrack. Lingering research/maths trauma, you see. >.>
Not a bad calculation, but I think you're off by around an order of magnitude. One gun firing 120 20kg rounds yields 120*20=2400kg fired, or around 2.5 tons. 36 guns would use 86.4 tons of shells themselves, not to mention propellant, casings, shell boxes, and the rest, which probably at least doubles the required mass flow. more than 170 tons per hour is an absolutely enormous quantity, and you're probably talking about several train-loads per day, if not hourly depending on the size of the train. Forget trucks for anything other than individual gun supply at this point.
 
Hey guys. Votes will probably close on Saturday, since I have the day off and my girlfriend doesn't. Expect update to follow, with plenty of fun and engaging mechanical snafus while I sketch out the disaster zone of tanks you're going to be getting. Speaking of sketchwork, I'm probably at some point also going to do a MS Paint line art of the SkW-1 or the W-5 at some point this week, so you all have some visual aid to ooh and aaaah at and go "that's a big freaking tank"

also because Dr. Ludwig is a really useful channel on YouTube, have something that's from someone else who needs a plug to bulk out this announcement.
 
[x] Hauptmann zur Himmel Johannes Janzen

[x] Kaptain Jacob Adler: An up-and-coming proponent of the Luftwaffe's new Battlefield Support doctrine, who worked with them and the Kriegsmarine in the new Flugzeugpeitsche project.
[x] Jan Mittlewesk: An engineer from the Thryssen gun labratory interested in seeing if there's any sort of new weapon he can deliver for the project.
[x] Etatmäßiger Percius Vogt: A master weaponsmith and operator at one point or another of every gun the Irromic Empire has used since black powder from the Ulm Proving Ground.
[x] Vizewachtmeister Mathias Lang: An anti-air gunner from the Great Pig War who was placed into medical reserve after Balhk paratroopers attacked his position.

This seems like a good set-up for this contest - worst case scenario, we get a good gun on a solidly Meh chassis. And frankly, we have options for good AA gun chassis, if we go for some sort of high-ish velocity autocannon. Or, worst case scenario, we go for something like the Wirbelwind or the M16 Multiple Gun Motor Carriage. Sure, those might not be good for messing up tanks, but they are not going to be fun to try and fly planes at, and will also mulch anything that isn't a tank pretty nicely.
 
eh fuck it close enough to saturday VOTES CALLED

EDIT: TIE VOTE 2hr EXTENSION
Adhoc vote count started by 7734 on Dec 28, 2018 at 11:36 PM, finished with 27 posts and 15 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by 7734 on Dec 29, 2018 at 9:48 AM, finished with 29 posts and 17 votes.
 
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[X] Hauptmann zur Himmel Johannes Janzen

[X] Kaptain Jacob Adler: An up-and-coming proponent of the Luftwaffe's new Battlefield Support doctrine, who worked with them and the Kriegsmarine in the new Flugzeugpeitsche project.
[X] Jan Mittlewesk: An engineer from the Thryssen gun labratory interested in seeing if there's any sort of new weapon he can deliver for the project.
[X] Etatmäßiger Percius Vogt: A master weaponsmith and operator at one point or another of every gun the Irromic Empire has used since black powder from the Ulm Proving Ground.
[X] Vizewachtmeister Mathias Lang: An anti-air gunner from the Great Pig War who was placed into medical reserve after Balhk paratroopers attacked his position.
 
[x] Hauptmann zur Himmel Johannes Janzen

[x] Kaptain Jacob Adler: An up-and-coming proponent of the Luftwaffe's new Battlefield Support doctrine, who worked with them and the Kriegsmarine in the new Flugzeugpeitsche project.
[x] Jan Mittlewesk: An engineer from the Thryssen gun labratory interested in seeing if there's any sort of new weapon he can deliver for the project.
[X] Edmund Volkstuppe: A young reserve kaptain who's spent most of his career in the artillery, Volkstruppe has an unnering knowledge about light artillery and what advancements have been going on in your old backyard.
[x] Vizewachtmeister Mathias Lang: An anti-air gunner from the Great Pig War who was placed into medical reserve after Balhk paratroopers attacked his position.
 
Contest 8: Opening Ideas
After assembling your Board, you got to talking with everyone.

Janzen, as a pilot, was quite conflicted on the topic of flak. In the War, it hadn't been a major issue unless you were going after something like divisional command with bombs or an artillery spotting balloon. Most flak, to him, had been based around the enemy's machine guns, and generally surrounded the balloon in three to four positions. When he was attacking a balloon, the two times he succeeded (attempt number three nearly taking off a wing of his) his technique was to make sure he was always flying tangentially to the guns, as if he was flying straight at them he'd get shredded. By his estimation, it took ten light and heavy machine guns to really put up a hard and fast no fly zone, and anything less than that was only discouragement. You could press an attack through flak, mostly if you had speed and altitude, but the early war eindekers didn't really enjoy either if you didn't baby them.

Kaptain Adler, meanwhile, thought Janzen was a bloody idiot and backwards fighter jock till the day he died. In terms of flak, the importance wasn't on the number of guns pumping lead, but rather on the ability to aim them. On the Carragian Front, there were several incidents where only three guns beat off four or five fighters, but the planes were all coming in from specific angles and the gunner had low closing rates- meanwhile, the Balhks tended to fill the sky with lead and shell shrapnel to little effect because they had no trigger discipline. If you went for a shell firing gun as the solution, Adler thought, you'd need to make sure you had an accurate firing solution on either a barrage point for transverse shots, or you had a solid bead on the plane with no more than fifteen degrees of closing angle, ten if the gun had a hand traverse. Anything with limited traverse, less than ninety degrees or so, needed to be immediately axed too. A light machine-gun based solution needed a certain amount of armor so a suppressive burst of the plane's synchronized gun didn't panic the crew. There'd only need to be one or two guns for the lighter pieces, but the catch was that they'd need to be both highly reliable, and more importantly be able to fire a lot of rounds. Once the gunner had a target, he was going to hold down the trigger, track the bogey, and pray he hit until the plane was out of his sights or he was out of bullets.

Vizewachtmeister Lang in large part agreed with Adler, and the two promptly blocked together to avoid some of the other unwise ideas floating around. Experiance with shell-firing guns in the War revealed they needed specialized mounts, and there was an old 8,8cm long gun concept they'd pulled out in a couple of regiments to serve as a flak cannon. The main issue was training the gun, since a wooden carriage trained about as fast as the ass hauling it. For lighter guns, he thought four guns under competent aims could bag a plane every time, and preffered ensuring there was both density of fire, and more importantly that a gunner could actually keep a lead on a target that was conducting a terminal attack near his position, which meant an increasing angle difference. Most planes were shot down on terminal attack runs, many after releasing their ordinance. The most important thing that Lang was concerned with, though, was good sights and good training. A gun crew had to be up at a moment's notice, and light flak units had to be able to keep their weapons in a ready state, even with the engines off.

Volkkstrupppe wasn't much help, but explained your smallest time fuse would result in a twenty to thirty percent dud rate in a 5,5cm gun, and you'd probably need a long barrel and wide bore to get good performance. Likewise, you'd need to drop spades and possibly even use a packing mount for a dedicated flak gun that fired shells. Anything smaller than the 3,5cm guns wasn't his problem, though.

Mittlewesk, meanwhile, was chomping at the bit to go if you needed a new gun. The old 8,8cm guns were a Royal Armory exclusive, but he'd be able to go around and get you a new option in roughly the same caliber if you needed a shell-firing gun. A machine gun would be notably harder to build since they were more mechanically complex, but he had high hopes on the "Embiggening Project" the team had been working on, and with long recoil weapons for vehicle mountings.

At this point, Hauptman zie Himmel Janzen reminded you that you still needed an idea on how to test firing at a moving target, and one moving in three dimensions, no less. God, you were going to be in deep on this one.


Votes

(Plan Vote)

[] Work on the Test Apparatus
-[] Write-in ideas
[] Work on the Weapons Specifications
-[] Write-in ideas
[] Work on the Chassis Specifications
-[] Write-in ideas

(Ok, since this is easily two or three times as complicated as your other projects, I'm breaking it up some. Before you write the RFQ and kick off testing, you need to decide some general ideas for this thing, and more importantly find a way to see if it works without shooting down friendlies. That last bit is bad.)
 
I've got a really dumb idea for testing, but it might be a "so dumb it works" idea rather than merely ordinary levels of dumb.

We take these things waterfowl hunting. Ducks or geese trying to land in a nearby lake isn't the worst stand in for a plane making an attack run. There's a lot of details that would need to be figured out to make it anything even approaching scientific, and it obviously can't be the only test, but I don't think it can be discarded out of hand.
 
I'm thinking maybe kites off a truck for the test apparatus but that can go wrong in so very many ways.

Edit: Maybe catapult-launched weights with little parachutes that will show if they took any hits? You might be able to get a fairly predictable arc and might be able to simulate a terminal attack.
 
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Could we tow gliders with actual aircraft as training targets? We'd have to the aircraft and glider painted for identification and make absolutely sure the gun crews know the proper target, but it's already been established training and actual protocol are immensely important in this position so that's arguably a feature.

I'm not sure how well you could do a terminal dive with a towed glider but maybe releasing it for that part on a terminal approach and veering off with the tow plane?
 
For the terminal attack runs, we build the World's Biggest Crossbow (tm). Put a nice big wall in front of it so the gunners don't shoot up the launcher. The high altitude stuff is probably going to have to be a towed glider. Maybe launch it outside the target area so no tow plane shootups?
 
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