Strategic Arms Quest 3/2: Armor Edition
- Thread starter 7734
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Perth, Western Australia
Well, this looks interesting & fun.
[X]Plan Actually A Light Tank 3.0 with a couple of things added.
-[X]Internal fuel must be enough for 150km on dirt road
-[X]An easy to maintain engine transmission and suspension is encouraged
Just a couple of little bits added that should help smooth things I think.
[X]Plan Actually A Light Tank 3.0 with a couple of things added.
-[X]Internal fuel must be enough for 150km on dirt road
-[X]An easy to maintain engine transmission and suspension is encouraged
Just a couple of little bits added that should help smooth things I think.
TortugaGreen
Constantly out of the loop
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- She/Her
[X]Plan Actually A Light Tank 3.0
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I am worried about this. "implicitly like that other plan, but add these things" may not be a valid plan format. Also, the issue with engine, suspension and transmission isn't ease of maintenance so much as it is reliability. We don't want them to fail so often. How easy those failures are to deal with is important too I guess, but I'd rather have no one even have to touch those things day to day instead of all seven times a day the engine breaks down being convenient to fix.
- Location
- Perth, Western Australia
[X]Plan Actually A Light Tank 3.1
-[X]Dimensional limits: 17 tons maximum, at least 30km/h top road speed, no larger than can fit on a standard rail car.
-[X]Must mount a single turreted 75mm Hannover Armoury cannon, ideally with a coaxial machine gun, with a dedicated loader and ideally a dedicated commander.
-[X]Must be protected against 37mm from the front and 20mm autocannons from all directions.
-[X]Equipped with a short range receiver radio, with space space in the turret for a larger two way.
-[X]Continue engine research.
-[X]Internal fuel must be enough for 150km on dirt road
-[X]Reliability in the engine transmission and suspension is encouraged
Ok, laid out in full & I do agree with your point about reliability so I changed that bit.
-[X]Dimensional limits: 17 tons maximum, at least 30km/h top road speed, no larger than can fit on a standard rail car.
-[X]Must mount a single turreted 75mm Hannover Armoury cannon, ideally with a coaxial machine gun, with a dedicated loader and ideally a dedicated commander.
-[X]Must be protected against 37mm from the front and 20mm autocannons from all directions.
-[X]Equipped with a short range receiver radio, with space space in the turret for a larger two way.
-[X]Continue engine research.
-[X]Internal fuel must be enough for 150km on dirt road
-[X]Reliability in the engine transmission and suspension is encouraged
Ok, laid out in full & I do agree with your point about reliability so I changed that bit.
TortugaGreen
Constantly out of the loop
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It's been 12 minutes, but the edit has been done.
Contest 7: Entrants 1
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
After writing your request for quotes, you waited with baited breath. Information back from Jung revealed that the weight limit was causing some serious issues back at Commorate, as well as everyone else. It was four months before the first design came in- interestingly enough, a Skoda design.
For a hot minute, you thought they were secretly Thryssen, as you compared the design to your requirements. Thirty kilometers per hour? Nope. Seventeen tons? Nope. Hannover 7,5cm gun? "Optional". What they had you couldn't argue, though, was a tank that was almost as well armored in sum as an SkW-1, with seven centimeters of massively sloped forward and four centimeters on the sides. Clocking in at twenty four tons dry and hitting twenty two kilometers per hour at the test track, the Skoda representative told you point blank it would resist any direct fire gun you could scrounge up to point at it. Also, it had a brand new Field Radio Set 3 in it, complete with the bi-directional and open loop accesses.
Ghermain Brothers Automotive came in next, about a week later. Their design was a lot more interesting, being a very long hull with a Jumo engine in the back, and six road wheels. The main reason for the long body was to fit in the twelve-gear transmission, which existed to get both maximum torque and maximum speed out of the system. Sticking with the bellcrank bogey suspension, they had dutifully mounted the 7,5cm gun in a turret, although they'd had to significantly redesign the recoil apparatus and flip the gun upside-down to get it to fit in the very limited turret. The loader now sat below the gun, of all places, and on a spare crate of shells to refill the ready rack in front of him. In the front of the tank, there was a driver, and the radio requirement was fulfilled by a Tactical Receiver Mk. 4 in the hull body connected to a wire bus to the gunner/commander. It made fifty-five kilometers on road testing, came in at just a hair under seventeen tons, and had a very sturdy front sloped system with it's rear-mounted engine.
Thryssen's submission was about a month after Skoda, and initially confused the hell out of you. Working with an underpowered flat eight engine, they'd managed to somehow push their weight optimization team to the absolute limit in this design to come in at twenty-two tons and still get thirty kilometers per hour on the nose out of it. With a driver, loader/radio operator, and gunner/commander, it looked fine until you saw how much space the tank had in the turret- to be exact, none. The loader had a ready rack of three shells, and additional ammo was kept in a large rack under the turret basket. Radio was handled via a Tactical Receiver Mk. in the hull, with provisions to hang a Field Radio Mk. 1 off the turret in a wooden box.
Commorate Casting Corporation called to inform you they'd be ready in about two more months, due to difficulty with sufficiently bracing their design so that the rear hull didn't absolutely crumple in versus impact and so that they could redesign the gun's recoil mechanism.
Armid's Coaches called in to inform you they were going to be ready in about three more months due to difficulties securing a suspension plan and in acquiring enough welders to build prototypes.
MANN CO. called to inform you that they'd be ready in five months due to the fact their engineering team had just been impounded in Kubachin after a diplomatic snafu and that their prototype team was currently on loan to Fenrus' Motorcycles & Tracked Ltd. while they set up expanded production lines for the Kettenkrad.
Fenrus' Motorcycles & Tracked Ltd. called to inform you their submission would be available next year, funds for a prototyping shop pending a grant or loan.
VOTE
[] Wait until all entrants are available for testing
[] Wait until more entrants are available for testing
-[] Write-in wait time in months
-[] Write-in suggestions for submissions.
[] Screw it, run a round of testing now
-[] Brief testing plan.
-[] Refuse a design
(engine research is automatically continued through any wait period taken unless specifically stopped)
For a hot minute, you thought they were secretly Thryssen, as you compared the design to your requirements. Thirty kilometers per hour? Nope. Seventeen tons? Nope. Hannover 7,5cm gun? "Optional". What they had you couldn't argue, though, was a tank that was almost as well armored in sum as an SkW-1, with seven centimeters of massively sloped forward and four centimeters on the sides. Clocking in at twenty four tons dry and hitting twenty two kilometers per hour at the test track, the Skoda representative told you point blank it would resist any direct fire gun you could scrounge up to point at it. Also, it had a brand new Field Radio Set 3 in it, complete with the bi-directional and open loop accesses.
Ghermain Brothers Automotive came in next, about a week later. Their design was a lot more interesting, being a very long hull with a Jumo engine in the back, and six road wheels. The main reason for the long body was to fit in the twelve-gear transmission, which existed to get both maximum torque and maximum speed out of the system. Sticking with the bellcrank bogey suspension, they had dutifully mounted the 7,5cm gun in a turret, although they'd had to significantly redesign the recoil apparatus and flip the gun upside-down to get it to fit in the very limited turret. The loader now sat below the gun, of all places, and on a spare crate of shells to refill the ready rack in front of him. In the front of the tank, there was a driver, and the radio requirement was fulfilled by a Tactical Receiver Mk. 4 in the hull body connected to a wire bus to the gunner/commander. It made fifty-five kilometers on road testing, came in at just a hair under seventeen tons, and had a very sturdy front sloped system with it's rear-mounted engine.
Thryssen's submission was about a month after Skoda, and initially confused the hell out of you. Working with an underpowered flat eight engine, they'd managed to somehow push their weight optimization team to the absolute limit in this design to come in at twenty-two tons and still get thirty kilometers per hour on the nose out of it. With a driver, loader/radio operator, and gunner/commander, it looked fine until you saw how much space the tank had in the turret- to be exact, none. The loader had a ready rack of three shells, and additional ammo was kept in a large rack under the turret basket. Radio was handled via a Tactical Receiver Mk. in the hull, with provisions to hang a Field Radio Mk. 1 off the turret in a wooden box.
Commorate Casting Corporation called to inform you they'd be ready in about two more months, due to difficulty with sufficiently bracing their design so that the rear hull didn't absolutely crumple in versus impact and so that they could redesign the gun's recoil mechanism.
Armid's Coaches called in to inform you they were going to be ready in about three more months due to difficulties securing a suspension plan and in acquiring enough welders to build prototypes.
MANN CO. called to inform you that they'd be ready in five months due to the fact their engineering team had just been impounded in Kubachin after a diplomatic snafu and that their prototype team was currently on loan to Fenrus' Motorcycles & Tracked Ltd. while they set up expanded production lines for the Kettenkrad.
Fenrus' Motorcycles & Tracked Ltd. called to inform you their submission would be available next year, funds for a prototyping shop pending a grant or loan.
VOTE
[] Wait until all entrants are available for testing
[] Wait until more entrants are available for testing
-[] Write-in wait time in months
-[] Write-in suggestions for submissions.
[] Screw it, run a round of testing now
-[] Brief testing plan.
-[] Refuse a design
(engine research is automatically continued through any wait period taken unless specifically stopped)
I figure we can wait at least three months, maybe 5, but a year could be a bit much. We should think about relaxing the weight limit a bit if it will even make a difference at this stage. Frame it as an overweight allowance so GBA doesn't feel penalized for having played by the rules. I don't actually hate their thing necessarily. The crew ergonomics are going to suck and there are a number of things that could prove problematic in testing, but it at least looks like a solid attempt, and going long and narrow isn't a bad way to make the extra protection in front that we asked for weigh less.
Okay, everyone. This is the part where we figure out how to mitigate our fuckup. Seems that for all that someone insisted even 15 tons was generous and that arriving at a plan with more than that was like pulling teeth, it turns out that it very much wasn't.
Now what?
We could try and scrap the whole thing and do a new RFQ, but that wastes money and good will and makes us look stupid.
We could radically change the way we expect this vehicle to fight to accommodate what we are likely to actually get. This has a little potential. Under the right circumstances, a big gun on a little armored car is pretty viable and can more or less take on tanks. An unusually fast tank with a big gun and bad armor could be used as pretty much a shittier, more expensive version of the concept. Alternately. something overweight but otherwise more or less hitting the specs we asked for could be a credible medium tank. I don't think we'll see anything like that without some big tradeoffs added in the name of keeping mass down, though.
Finally, we could revise our request somehow and give people time to work with for it. That turns into an issue of what exactly we want to sacrifice.
The weight limit is the obvious first thing to toss. Loosening it by a couple tons could help a lot. I'd say at absolute minimum, it needs to go up to 20.
Sacrificing armor could work. If we do that, I figure we either loosen the "all around" requirement, or stop hoping to take 3.5 from the front, or both. This significantly impacts how this vehicle will fight and general capabilities and all that, but it should help with the weight.
We can't cut the speed limit. It's already as low as I consider possibly acceptable.
Cutting the gun bask to, say, the 5.5 may not make as big a difference as you'd think, but it would allow for better turret layouts if nothing else. I'm pretty attached to the 7.5 for its HE capabilities and how future-proof it is, but the fact is that it's a ridiculously big gun to stick on a normal sized tank right now.
I think I favor a combination of armor reduction and mass limit increase. I would really like input from other people on this, though.
Now what?
We could try and scrap the whole thing and do a new RFQ, but that wastes money and good will and makes us look stupid.
We could radically change the way we expect this vehicle to fight to accommodate what we are likely to actually get. This has a little potential. Under the right circumstances, a big gun on a little armored car is pretty viable and can more or less take on tanks. An unusually fast tank with a big gun and bad armor could be used as pretty much a shittier, more expensive version of the concept. Alternately. something overweight but otherwise more or less hitting the specs we asked for could be a credible medium tank. I don't think we'll see anything like that without some big tradeoffs added in the name of keeping mass down, though.
Finally, we could revise our request somehow and give people time to work with for it. That turns into an issue of what exactly we want to sacrifice.
The weight limit is the obvious first thing to toss. Loosening it by a couple tons could help a lot. I'd say at absolute minimum, it needs to go up to 20.
Sacrificing armor could work. If we do that, I figure we either loosen the "all around" requirement, or stop hoping to take 3.5 from the front, or both. This significantly impacts how this vehicle will fight and general capabilities and all that, but it should help with the weight.
We can't cut the speed limit. It's already as low as I consider possibly acceptable.
Cutting the gun bask to, say, the 5.5 may not make as big a difference as you'd think, but it would allow for better turret layouts if nothing else. I'm pretty attached to the 7.5 for its HE capabilities and how future-proof it is, but the fact is that it's a ridiculously big gun to stick on a normal sized tank right now.
I think I favor a combination of armor reduction and mass limit increase. I would really like input from other people on this, though.
TortugaGreen
Constantly out of the loop
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X]Plan Unfuck this Mess
-[X]Wait 4 months, such to allow time for those already working to complete their designs
-[X]Inform all entrants that due to the difficulty apparent in our weight limits, we will relax them to permit designs otherwise compliant with our specifications, to an upper limit of 25 tons.
-[X]Inform Skoda that their design will be treated as if it carries the 7,5cm gun by default, and must be tested with it included.
-[X]Advise Thryssen to look into expanding their turret and ready locker some.
-[X]Inform those already done that they may resubmit a revised design at the end of the 4-month period, if they wish.
Planvoting this modification, which should hopefully ameliorate the whole mess we've landed in.
-[X]Wait 4 months, such to allow time for those already working to complete their designs
-[X]Inform all entrants that due to the difficulty apparent in our weight limits, we will relax them to permit designs otherwise compliant with our specifications, to an upper limit of 25 tons.
-[X]Inform Skoda that their design will be treated as if it carries the 7,5cm gun by default, and must be tested with it included.
-[X]Advise Thryssen to look into expanding their turret and ready locker some.
-[X]Inform those already done that they may resubmit a revised design at the end of the 4-month period, if they wish.
Planvoting this modification, which should hopefully ameliorate the whole mess we've landed in.
Glitchrr36
Slick's Short Company, CEO
- Location
- The Wastes
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X]Plan Unfuck Longer
Changed vote
Changed vote
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Fezzes
Knight of King Stannis Baratheon
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
Isn't this pretty much impossible given the state of our relationship with Thryssen, that being "FUCK YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUJUUUUUU"?
TortugaGreen
Constantly out of the loop
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I figured we might as well try. If they want to stick with their current design, that's their choice, and I'll let them suffer the consequences of that choice.
Note for everyone else though is that the second line of that vote contains a veiled threat to Skoda: "Inform all entrants that due to the difficulty apparent in our weight limits, we will relax them to permit designs otherwise compliant with our specifications, to an upper limit of 25 tons." It is there to indicate we'd really prefer they make their thing actually meet speed requirements.
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[X]Plan Unfuck Longer
-[X]Wait 5 months, such to allow time for all but Fenrus to complete their designs
-[X]Inform all entrants that due to the difficulty apparent in our weight limits, we will relax them to permit designs otherwise compliant with our specifications, to an upper limit of 25 tons.
-[X]Inform Skoda that their design will be treated as if it carries the 7,5cm gun by default, and must be tested with it included.
-[X]Advise Thryssen to look into expanding their turret and ready locker some.
-[X]Inform those already done that they may resubmit a revised design at the end of the 5-month period, if they wish.
I see no reason to cut a month off of this if the cost is one less contestant and less time for the others to unfuck things.
-[X]Wait 5 months, such to allow time for all but Fenrus to complete their designs
-[X]Inform all entrants that due to the difficulty apparent in our weight limits, we will relax them to permit designs otherwise compliant with our specifications, to an upper limit of 25 tons.
-[X]Inform Skoda that their design will be treated as if it carries the 7,5cm gun by default, and must be tested with it included.
-[X]Advise Thryssen to look into expanding their turret and ready locker some.
-[X]Inform those already done that they may resubmit a revised design at the end of the 5-month period, if they wish.
I see no reason to cut a month off of this if the cost is one less contestant and less time for the others to unfuck things.
TortugaGreen
Constantly out of the loop
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I had chosen 4 months to give the 3-month people a healthy margin of error, and more or less deliberately excluded MANN because it sounded like they hadn't even started, giving me no solid reason to trust their estimate.
Realistically, "haven't even started" doesn't strike me as a huge negative when it's still more time than two out of three of the ones we have so far took and we are changing the requirements out from under them. Deliberately excluding them seems unwise when we may very well end up wishing we'd had more options to pick from.