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From Stone to the Stars

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Japanime said:
Yet, in your argument you completely ignore the fact that his actions here were a symptom rather than the cause of the strife during that time.

Considering how your prediction on how On Behalf of Future Generations would have changed our Trial By Fire value was wrong, where it instead changed our Blood Brothers value, in this instance here I do not share the same viewpoint as you and take your arguments with a grain of salt.

You are using one singular event, one singular instance in Priit's very long life, to frame a narrative that seems to shift his legend into being one of "a series of mistakes from all parties".

The message I want portrayed here in terms of Priit's life is not the one you seem to be suggesting, one of "The glory and rage of war", but instead a story of how one man rose to greatness through channeling his anger to right wrongs and injustices.

If we look at things through Priit's story, while there are certain aspects of his story which do portray the glory of war, there also aspects of it that show the horror of it such as the many comrades lost and the after effects of it.

In the context of anger being chosen, I see anger here as a constructive force. For example, when Priit learned of the issues of the war orphans, it could be said that his anger at the issue led to the change that occurred in its reform.

In my view here, I believe choosing anger will affect the Ordeals value that we have rather than the Might Makes Right and Elitism trait as you seem to suggest it will. Mostly because of the excerpt where it mentions the spirits right before the vote on Priit's emotion. For all that Priit's story was one of violence, a lot of his changes and reforms were had without it, so I do not agree with you when you frame the emotions he is having at this time and tying them to those two values. You have yet to say anything to convince me on this, and considering how opaque these value votes tend to be, I doubt you really will considering we have incompatible viewpoints.

In short I do not want Priit's life to be reduced to a story of how one mistake of his defines his entire legend and the moral of his story. Instead I would rather it be a story of one where he channeled his early anger and used it to enact great change. I would rather have Priit be remembered on his deathbed as a raging warrior angry that he has only one life left to give, than a regretful old man who is melancholy because he made one stupid mistake in youth.
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It's already been stated that the lawgiver/justice aspects of Pritt's legend will be reassigned to Kaspar's. Influencing his legend is deciding on the traits of our war god (and thus our attitude towards war) more than our view on justice.
 
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racnor said:
It's already been stated that the lawgiver/justice aspects of pritt's legend will be reassigned to Kaspar's. Influencing his legend is deciding on the traits of our war god (and thus our additude towards war) more than our view on justice.
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Yes, I am aware of that.

However, that doesn't really change things for me. As I still believe anger is the right choice with regards to that as well. The War with the Northlands may have been the war where Priit's legend was born, however it is not the only war in which it grew.

Considering how his legacy will color the history of the wars he is fought I am fine with using anger as that emotion to color it. While the war against the Northlands was regretful, it was also one where the People should rightly have felt anger for having been subjected to it. The war against the enemies of the Peace Builders doesn't really fit in terms of regret, however in terms of anger, it works well considering in that instance Priit was fighting on behalf of his Blood Brothers in the Peace Builders, where anger could've motivated him to fight when he could've otherwise chose not to. Here in the case of the war against Arrow Lake, while Priit likely does regret having been forced to fight once again, I would rather have him be angry at Arrow Lake for being so greedy and craven to have placed him in this position in the first place.

Thus, if we look at things in terms of his legend as a war god. Priit could be the War God or Righteous Anger, where once provoked will unleash the wrath of the People.
 
[X][End] Regret
[X] [War] Continue to strangle Arrow Lake's food supply.
[X] [War] Try and divide Arrow Lake's two settlements so they can be conquered piecemeal.
 
Japanime said:
Yes, I am aware of that.

However, that doesn't really change things for me. As I still believe anger is the right choice with regards to that as well. The War with the Northlands may have been the war where Priit's legend was born, however it is not the only war in which it grew.

Considering how his legacy will color the history of the wars he is fought I am fine with using anger as that emotion to color it. While the war against the Northlands was regretful, it was also one where the People should rightly have felt anger for having been subjected to it. The war against the enemies of the Peace Builders doesn't really fit in terms of regret, however in terms of anger, it works well considering in that instance Priit was fighting on behalf of his Blood Brothers in the Peace Builders, where anger could've motivated him to fight when he could've otherwise chose not to. Here in the case of the war against Arrow Lake, while Priit likely does regret having been forced to fight once again, I would rather have him be angry at Arrow Lake for being so greedy and craven to have placed him in this position in the first place.

Thus, if we look at things in terms of his legend as a war god. Priit could be the War God or Righteous Anger, where once provoked will unleash the wrath of the People.
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My point about how his laws will be forgotten is that all the stuff about his anger driving our internal reform won't matter.

On this posts points, Pritt is going to be a god of righteous retribution in every choice except MAYBE regret, because that's what our values say about war and justice and none of the other options clash with it. The choice, then, is about how the ideal warrior should see the foe who has wronged his people. Is regret for fighting them correct? No, they committed injustice and must be punished. But should they be hated, seen as deserving of great suffering? I don't think Pritt would agree with that given the situations with the northlands and the cracktooth debtors. Similarly, the warrior should not attempt to feel nothing at all for their foe, nor should they curse the spirits for having to fight at all; the first is just a silly ideal of stoicism and the second is pointless, imparting no lesson.

Instead, the ideal warrior should resign themselves to the fact that they must fight, because retribution is necessary to keep The People safe.



There is also the second dimension of Pritt being the teacher of the next round of leaders at the moment. A warning that war is painful, but that it WILL come, is a great message to budding leaders. Being really angry at things seems at best neutral.
 
racnor said:
My point about how his laws will be forgotten is that all the stuff about his anger driving our internal reform won't matter.

On this posts points, Pritt is going to be a god of righteous retribution in every choice except MAYBE regret, because that's what our values say about war and justice and none of the other options clash with it. The choice, then, is about how the ideal warrior should see the foe who has wronged his people. Is regret for fighting them correct? No, they committed injustice and must be punished. But should they be hated, seen as deserving of great suffering? I don't think Pritt would agree with that given the situations with the northlands and the cracktooth debtors. Similarly, the warrior should not attempt to feel nothing at all for their foe, nor should they curse the spirits for having to fight at all; the first is just a silly ideal of stoicism and the second is pointless, imparting no lesson.

Instead, the ideal warrior should resign themselves to the fact that they must fight, because retribution is necessary to keep The People safe.



There is also the second dimension of Pritt being the teacher of the next round of leaders at the moment. A warning that war is painful, but that it WILL come, is a great message to budding leaders. Being really angry at things seems at best neutral.
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Anger is not the same thing as hatred. Your argument frames anger and regret as being one and the same thing, using them interchangeably, when they are not the same thing. Hatred may contain anger, but not all anger involves hatred.

I disagree with your framing of anger and hatred being the same thing. As Priit has shown in his own actions, Priit's anger at a situation be different from his anger towards a group of People. In my view anger can be subsumed into the image of an ideal warrior as you put it. A warrior can and should feel anger about needing to fight, about being forced to fight for their own lives and the lives of the People as a whole. That anger, however, as Priit has shown should be directed toward the situation, which sometimes means the enemy at the time, but afterwards once the enemy is defeated can be allowed to subside. As Priit showed in the Northlands, once a warrior accomplishes his task of making an enemy not a threat anymore, there is no need for anger anymore for the enemy he is facing is not the same enemy as the one from before.

The point I am trying to make here is that Priit here is not espousing anger against a certain people, a hatred against them, but instead an anger about being put in this position by the spirits in the first place, about the situation as a whole.

Considering how having fanatical warriors seems to work fine for the Peace Builders, I do not see why having something similar here is a detriment to us.

The lesson I believe that regret teaches is that the warriors of the People should be overcautious. Second guessing every choice otherwise you end up as regretful as Priit.

Also it's hard to use regret as a justification for resigning themselves to fighting when resignation is also an emotional choice for this option.

So, yes I still believe Righteous Anger trumps regret here, especially as it seems you have conflated it to mean hatred.
 
Japanime said:
Anger is not the same thing as hatred. Your argument frames anger and regret as being one and the same thing, using them interchangeably, when they are not the same thing. Hatred may contain anger, but not all anger involves hatred.

I disagree with your framing of anger and hatred being the same thing. As Priit has shown in his own actions, Priit's anger at a situation be different from his anger towards a group of People. In my view anger can be subsumed into the image of an ideal warrior as you put it. A warrior can and should feel anger about needing to fight, about being forced to fight for their own lives and the lives of the People as a whole. That anger, however, as Priit has shown should be directed toward the situation, which sometimes means the enemy at the time, but afterwards once the enemy is defeated can be allowed to subside. As Priit showed in the Northlands, once a warrior accomplishes his task of making an enemy not a threat anymore, there is no need for anger anymore for the enemy he is facing is not the same enemy as the one from before.

The point I am trying to make here is that Priit here is not espousing anger against a certain people, a hatred against them, but instead an anger about being put in this position by the spirits in the first place, about the situation as a whole.

Considering how having fanatical warriors seems to work fine for the Peace Builders, I do not see why having something similar here is a detriment to us.

The lesson I believe that regret teaches is that the warriors of the People should be overcautious. Second guessing every choice otherwise you end up as regretful as Priit.

Also it's hard to use regret as a justification for resigning themselves to fighting when resignation is also an emotional choice for this option.

So, yes I still believe Righteous Anger trumps regret here, especially as it seems you have conflated it to mean hatred.
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If you want anger at the situation rather than the people, then go for bitter. Anger might not require hatred, but it sure encourages it.

And it's resigned i'm arguing for, not regret.

EDIT-on a separate note, the new system:
Redium said:
Staples: Small Surplus (Equilibrium)
Farmers: Near Capacity
Fishermen: Significant Capacity Remaining
Gatherers: Some Capacity Remaining
Huntsmen: Half Capacity Remaining
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Interesting and good to be able to see this. Interesting that farming capacity is so high.


Redium said:
Cons: Does not deal with with high Hierarchy, beware intra-aristocrat conflicts
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Well, at least we have a +1 hierarchy tolerance


Redium said:
Normal Actions: 3 Actions
Extra Actions: 3 Empowerment Actions
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Hell yeah, more actions! No idea what empowerment means here.


Redium said:
Can spend stability to complete two of the same action at once
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This being made explicit has given me a plan. I will hold off on details until the 20.0 vote, but festivals are involved.
LOTS OF FESTIVALS.
 
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racnor said:
If you want anger at the situation rather than the people, then go for bitter. Anger might not require hatred, but it sure encourages it.

And it's resigned i'm arguing for, not regret.
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I do not disagree that anger can lead to hated, insert Yoda quote about the Dark Side here, however in the context of Priit's life I feel it seems more apt with Righteous Anger and Determination than hatred. Bitter to me seems too resigned to the situation, which doesn't portray his story well, although it could certainly be framed that way.
 
Japanime said:
I do not disagree that anger can lead to hated, insert Yoda quote about the Dark Side here, however in the context of Priit's life I feel it seems more apt with Righteous Anger and Determination than hatred. Bitter to me seems too resigned to the situation, which doesn't portray his story well, although it could certainly be framed that way.
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In the context of pritt's situation sure, but what about 5 generations down the line when he's been subsumed into The Blacksword? The subtleties will be lost, the friends he made forgotten and what many people will draw from his legend is that the state of an ideal warrior is one of burning anger.

And I don't see how a state of being angry at the spirits/situation itself is anything but bitter. It's blaming something unchangeable and out of reach.
 
I think I am just going to show a short video that sums up why I think anger is better.


Anger is the only emotion that looks ahead.
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racnor said:
And I don't see how a state of being angry at the spirits/situation itself is anything but bitter. It's blaming something unchangeable and out of reach.
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Fate can be resisted, And we can take hold of it. The so called future that lies ahead.
That comes from anger, resignation is surrendering why should one seek to make a better place if it is all for not?
 
racnor said:
In the context of pritt's situation sure, but what about 5 generations down the line when he's been subsumed into The Blacksword? The subtleties will be lost, the friends he made forgotten and what many people will draw from his legend is that the state of an ideal warrior is one of burning anger.

And I don't see how a state of being angry at the spirits/situation itself is anything but bitter. It's blaming something unchangeable and out of reach.
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The same could be said for any of the other options that tries to take a more nuanced approached. If we are to simply distill Priit's anger and the situations surrounding it into simply being an Angry War God without any of the context surrounding him, the same could be said for regret where Priit is seen as a tragedy with his entire life being regretful with none of the nuances being remembered. Even in that instance we should still have enough to make it so that his anger was not just misdirected anger but Righteous Anger, which can be constructive especially if it is seen in the later of context of being divine anger.

Being angry at the spirits and situation is better. It sends the message that even in an impossible situation you can and should rage at the fates, and that it is better to do so than simply regretting how the situation came about, as that regret does not actually change anything.

There are plenty of stories in plenty of real mythologies where the characters are confronted by divinely driven circumstances, where they are powerless to stop them, yet where they refuse to yield and some good changes come as a result.

That is the message I want portrayed, where Priit is remembered as a warrior who raged against the cruel fates brought upon him and brought change to the world around him. Just because something is unchangeable now does not mean it always will be or has to be.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Fate can be resisted, And we can take hold of it. The so called future that lies ahead.
That comes from anger, resignation is surrendering why should one seek to make a better place if it is all for not?
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Because the spirits WILL send more tests. Or, from our perspective, there WILL always be another war. It's the NEOLITHIC. We are a LOOOOOOOOOONG way away from freedom from war or injustice.

However. my main point in saying that the Bitter option is the one where Pritt is angry at the world, is that I think that means that the anger option is thus not him being angry at the world, but rather him being angry at Arrow Lake.
However, 1) I phrased it terribly as usual, and 2) I should really have just summoned @Redium to ask who he's angry at in that option.
Japanime said:
The same could be said for any of the other options that tries to take a more nuanced approached. If we are to simply distill Priit's anger and the situations surrounding it into simply being an Angry War God without any of the context surrounding him, the same could be said for regret where Priit is seen as a tragedy with his entire life being regretful with none of the nuances being remembered.
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That is pretty much what I'm saying. We are deciding here what the essence of an ideal warrior is. Should they regret having to fight at all, be fueled by rage at others or fate, feel nothing at all, or accept war as a painful duty?
 
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racnor said:
Because the spirits WILL send more tests. Or, from our perspective, there WILL always be another war. It's the NEOLITHIC. We are a LOOOOOOOOOONG way away from freedom from war or injustice.

However. my main point in saying that the Bitter option is the one where Pritt is angry at the world, is that I think that means that the anger option is thus not him being angry at the world, but rather him being angry at Arrow Lake.
However, 1) I phrased it terribly as usual, and 2) I should really have just summoned @Redium to ask who he's angry at in that option.

That is pretty much what I'm saying. We are deciding here what the essence of an ideal warrior is. Should they regret having to fight at all, be fueled by rage at others or fate, feel nothing at all, or accept war as a painful duty?
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I mean here's the vote and the characters thoughts up to said vote.
Redium said:
The People had needed him; too many were dying at the hands of Arrow Lake due to their miraculous luck. Widows and orphaned children had come to him, tears in their eyes. They had sat on their knees and begged Priit for his intervention, to save their sons and husbands.

And so he had obliged.

Donning the great antlered war-mask and picking up his personal blacksword for the first time in what must have been ten long and peaceful years. His dogs had been happy for the exercise, to run alongside him and kiss the wind between tree and root. Even as it made Priit's inside's curdle.

Was this what Aeva had felt? Was this the reason she cling to power, even to the point where she was dying?

It made sense. A twisted horrible sense. The spirits sent their tests, always pushing to see where the People would break. It was necessary, but...

In the end, as Priit lived out his last days covered in blood, slaughtering men and women a quarter of his age. He died a death that could not be fought and felt only a single emotion.

[ ] [End] Regret
[ ] [End] Bitterness
[ ] [End] Apathy
[ ] [End] Anger
[ ] [End] Resignation
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. To go to war makes his insides curdle .
He thinks about a person who basically fucked him early on in his life, and comes to see that she may have been doing it because of what she thought was best for the people and not out of ill intent or a desire for power, despite him going to war on the front line despite not wanting to.
He then thinks about the spirits about their tests about how they are necessary. but...
It then changes to a short description about the final days of his life killing those a quarter of his age.
Tell me who do you think he be most pissed at?
 
SpeckofStardust said:
.
I mean here's the vote and the characters thoughts up to said vote.

. To go to war makes his insides curdle .
He thinks about a person who basically fucked him early on in his life, and comes to see that she may have been doing it because of what she thought was best for the people and not out of ill intent or a desire for power, despite him going to war on the front line despite not wanting to.
He then thinks about the spirits about their tests about how they are necessary. but...
It then changes to a short description about the final days of his life killing those a quarter of his age.
Tell me who do you think he be most pissed at?
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I can understand your perspective, I just disagree with it.
 
racnor said:
Because the spirits WILL send more tests. Or, from our perspective, there WILL always be another war. It's the NEOLITHIC. We are a LOOOOOOOOOONG way away from freedom from war or injustice.

However. my main point in saying that the Bitter option is the one where Pritt is angry at the world, is that I think that means that the anger option is thus not him being angry at the world, but rather him being angry at Arrow Lake.
However, 1) I phrased it terribly as usual, and 2) I should really have just summoned @Redium to ask who he's angry at in that option.
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I don't disagree with the point about the fact that there will always be more ordeals. However just because there are always more ordeals does not mean that the People should just sit around and be bitter about their lot in life, or regret the choices that led them there, or simply be resigned to the fact that it happens. Just because there may be forces out of their control does not mean they should not stand and fight against it, or even be angry about it is what I am trying to say.

My point of view is predicated on Priit's anger here being directed towards the situation at hand which forced them into this situation, human greed and arrogance, and the spirits for sending such an ordeal upon him.

I may be right, you may be right, or everyone may be wrong as seen by the last vote where the whole entire value ended up being dead wrong from what we actually got. That's how these value votes tend to go, they are not very clear, which makes me take someone's perspective with a massive mountain of salt.

racnor said:
That is pretty much what I'm saying. We are deciding here what the essence of an ideal warrior is. Should they regret having to fight at all, be fueled by rage at others or fate, feel nothing at all, or accept war as a painful duty?
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Considering how well the fanatical warriors of the Peace Builders do, I think anger works fine here.

It seems at this point we will have to just agree to disagree due to a difference in perspectives.
 
I believe since this is a roll dice type story driven narrative, its best to have multipliers (Donno if its done that way, just gonna assume.) I assume that Anger will give Pirtt the drive to see the war threw and give me a + in martial when facing arrow lake with righteous anger towards them.

With all other options a negative in the wrong direction as such should be avoided cause I want to win this war.

We should however never assume things else we be wrong and get a heaping pile of salt dumped onto us because we were assuming stuff.
 
Quick question, what actually are workers?

Sorry if this has been answered before.
 
[X] [End] Anger
[X] [End] Resignation

[X] [War] Try and divide Arrow Lake's two settlements so they can be conquered piecemeal.

Redium said:
the People could not agree on a coherent message for the Law.
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Even if the People didn't all agree, doesn't Priit still get to decide what exactly will be written on the temples?
Redium said:
Since this doesn't seem popular, I'll nix the idea, then.

From the first page, however, narrative has been primary. The votes were never mechanical, they were just an abstraction to make following the narrative easier. How would the People interpret a dead even split between two main moral codes?
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I'm not against the voter divide in such situations having consequences. In fact, I'm very much in favor. But they shouldn't be negative consequences, on balance. They should just lead to mostly narrative things with benefits and drawbacks.
racnor said:
Through logical consequence and internal narrative, like everything else in this quest? It's worked until now. We make a choice, the people react to their leader making the choice, if they don't like what the the leader chose they flip the table.
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That's actually a way to interpret voter actions that I didn't quite like even in PoC. We (the voters) are not the leaders. We are not Priit's personal little whispering spirits. We are playing the whole civilization, not just the top of it. Or at least that's how it should be, in my opinion.
 
zac1 said:
I assume that Anger will give Pirtt the drive to see the war threw and give me a + in martial when facing arrow lake with righteous anger towards them.
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Priit is literally on his deathbed. This is setting mythology for our tribe, whether they remember him as a furious god of war.

Also the Arrow Lake war is fought by patience and cunning. A wall assault in fury would cost us greatly in blood.
 
veekie said:
Priit is literally on his deathbed. This is setting mythology for our tribe, whether they remember him as a furious god of war.
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And just like regret in this context, that anger can have many different connotations.

Especially considering how wrong people have been in the past considering these value votes.

veekie said:
Also the Arrow Lake war is fought by patience and cunning. A wall assault in fury would cost us greatly in blood.
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Except literally, and I mean literally here, no one is voting for a Wall Assault. So even if anger is chosen, there is no reason to believe it will cause everyone to abandon the voted war plan and charge head long into the enemy wall like lemmings. No one here has even suggested it because we all know it's a stupid idea. And there has been no indication that choosing one option here will override the other option chosen.

You can still fight on with anger and fury and not suicidally throw yourselves at the enemy walls and gates.
 
veekie said:
Anger and fury isn't constructive here when you are fighting hit and run harassments. Makes it harder to disengage
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Still different from saying that anger and fury would lead to directly assaulting the walls.

So far as it hasn't been clarified we do not know how impactful this choice will be in the immediate near term as all @Redium has told us is that this will affect Priit's legacy as a war god.

For all we know by choosing regret we will induce doubt and second guessing into the warriors around us with some possibly reconsidering their choice to fight due to Priit's deathbed words.

However I don't think that is the logical conclusion to be reached here.

While anger and fury clouding your mind can lead to making you more impulsive and less likely to disengage, that same anger and fury can also likely drive you to greater heights when already engaged in intense fighting.

Just like how regret could lead to second guessing, which is good if you are cautious, but can lead to bad decisions being made if you are indecisive now because of being afraid of making a mistake like Priit did.

Things cut both ways here.
 
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