I think the whole Magecraft vs Chakra debate is missing the forest for the trees.

Things Rin can do with Magecraft that cannot easily be done with Chakra
-Store energy. Its extremely complex fuinjutsu to store chakra, while the resultant energy is largely personal. On the other hand its the Tohsaka trademark magecraft to store years of magical energy, and it can be used by any magus(which admittedly is just her if so).

-Remote Sensing. While Sensors exist, full sensory projection is pretty much a Hyuuga thing. But its only moderately complex for any Magus to hook up their senses to a familiar to perceive for them.

-Familiars. Naruto beast contracts are superior in their intelligence and general capabilities, but the contract is basically a personal alliance, with expectations on both sides, which are not trivially expendable. Magecraft can turn just about any animal(and some constructs) into expendable puppets, which is mainly a Yamanaka thing.

-Wide area surveillance effects. Fuinjutsu perimeter alarms and wards are very location limited, generally pretty blatant and very complex to set up. Meanwhile even Shirou's anemic capabilities can maintain a decent alarm field invisibly over his entire household.

-Direct spiritual attacks. Naruto techniques are heavily materialist, with spiritual attacks being mostly specialized clan techniques for Yin Release and the relatively easily disrupted Genjutsu. Rin can fire Gandrs like machineguns, overloaded until they start causing physical damage, and she has killed spirits with magic, while in Naruto, not a lot you can do directly to spirits outside of Sage Arts of super fancy eyehax.

-Object and body enhancement. This is a chakra staple, but Magecraft has it as reverse priority to Chakra, being very good at enhancing objects but difficult to augment body...but at the same time Magecraft CAN actually enhance things like senses to see for miles, while in Naruto that sort of thing is either Gates or Bloodline techniques.

-Enchantment. Okay, both sides are hellishly difficult whether you use Fuinjutsu or Mystic Code construction. Merging the two oughta be a treat though. For Science.

Short version: No outright superiority. But as the two tech trees have different low hanging fruits(the kind of energy attacks that even rookie shinobi can shit out would make Nasuverse magi green with envy, while transformations or clones are postgraduate magi work), by harvesting from both trees you can reap the best of both.

IF it works.
 
[X](Origin) Pick up the gem
[X](Milk) Drink
[X](Action) Try to find your Circuits

Who cares about bonuses or flaws from the options. Keeping Rins personality is all that matters.
 
[X](Origin) Cheat the system
+Seriously reminds you of Archer's personality and combat style
+Front-line combat is easier for you
+Any technique classified as offensive gains a great training bonus
+Any 'support' skill gets a moderate-high malus in combat and a mild one in training, and healing is less effective when used on others
+You gain the Trait 'If you aren't cheating, you're not trying'
[X](Milk) Drink
 
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I think the whole Magecraft vs Chakra debate is missing the forest for the trees.

Things Rin can do with Magecraft that cannot easily be done with Chakra
-Store energy. Its extremely complex fuinjutsu to store chakra, while the resultant energy is largely personal. On the other hand its the Tohsaka trademark magecraft to store years of magical energy, and it can be used by any magus(which admittedly is just her if so).

-Remote Sensing. While Sensors exist, full sensory projection is pretty much a Hyuuga thing. But its only moderately complex for any Magus to hook up their senses to a familiar to perceive for them.

-Familiars. Naruto beast contracts are superior in their intelligence and general capabilities, but the contract is basically a personal alliance, with expectations on both sides, which are not trivially expendable. Magecraft can turn just about any animal(and some constructs) into expendable puppets, which is mainly a Yamanaka thing.

-Wide area surveillance effects. Fuinjutsu perimeter alarms and wards are very location limited, generally pretty blatant and very complex to set up. Meanwhile even Shirou's anemic capabilities can maintain a decent alarm field invisibly over his entire household.

-Direct spiritual attacks. Naruto techniques are heavily materialist, with spiritual attacks being mostly specialized clan techniques for Yin Release and the relatively easily disrupted Genjutsu. Rin can fire Gandrs like machineguns, overloaded until they start causing physical damage, and she has killed spirits with magic, while in Naruto, not a lot you can do directly to spirits outside of Sage Arts of super fancy eyehax.

-Object and body enhancement. This is a chakra staple, but Magecraft has it as reverse priority to Chakra, being very good at enhancing objects but difficult to augment body...but at the same time Magecraft CAN actually enhance things like senses to see for miles, while in Naruto that sort of thing is either Gates or Bloodline techniques.

-Enchantment. Okay, both sides are hellishly difficult whether you use Fuinjutsu or Mystic Code construction. Merging the two oughta be a treat though. For Science.

Short version: No outright superiority. But as the two tech trees have different low hanging fruits(the kind of energy attacks that even rookie shinobi can shit out would make Nasuverse magi green with envy, while transformations or clones are postgraduate magi work), by harvesting from both trees you can reap the best of both.

IF it works.
On top of these very excellent point, I think that there's a lot of potential in having fuuinjutsu and Crests/Circuits working off of one another down the line, if Magecraft works our here. Like... way down the line considering we'd have to learn fuuinjutsu and reinvent magecraft, but it's possible.
 
I'm going to close the vote in 16 hours or so from this post being made.

I considered doing so early, but I can see people are still voting.
 
I am going to advocate that Magecraft is useless compared to Chakra this entire quest. Why? Well let me answer that question with one of my own.

Why do you desire wasting precious time learning two systems? No seriously, why? Time is not what we have. We need to chose one and bluntly speaking? Chakra is the far superior option. It just does things far better than magecraft ever wished it could do.
 
I am going to advocate that Magecraft is useless compared to Chakra this entire quest. Why? Well let me answer that question with one of my own.

Why do you desire wasting precious time learning two systems? No seriously, why? Time is not what we have. We need to chose one and bluntly speaking? Chakra is the far superior option. It just does things far better than magecraft ever wished it could do.
@veekie made a huge list of all the things Magecraft does better than chakra. I don't know why you're choosing this hill to die on, but you are fundamentally incorrect - if Magecraft is possible here, it offers a large advantage by virtue of being an outside context problem for every other ninja in existence.
 
@veekie made a huge list of all the things Magecraft does better than chakra. I don't know why you're choosing this hill to die on, but you are fundamentally incorrect - if Magecraft is possible here, it offers a large advantage by virtue of being an outside context problem for every other ninja in existence.
Chakra is physical and spiritual energy combined. Soul based attacks won't be as effective as you may think it is.

Summoning contracts are superior period. If it's not Sage Mode, then it's that they are intelligent, can work with you, and can emulate ninja techniques.

We are a sensor. Train and use it until it's second nature and you have an awareness field of your entire area.

Storing energy? You mean wait years for something to be effective against an enemy in this world?

Chakra just does enhancement better and can actually enhance senses such as smell.

So what exactly did veekie say that makes magecraft so supposedly superior?
 
[X](Origin) Pick up the gem
[X](Milk) Drink
[X](Action) Try to find your Circuits
Adhoc vote count started by SouvikKundu on Aug 3, 2018 at 4:36 PM, finished with 85 posts and 29 votes.
 
Chakra is physical and spiritual energy combined. Soul based attacks won't be as effective as you may think it is.

Summoning contracts are superior period. If it's not Sage Mode, then it's that they are intelligent, can work with you, and can emulate ninja techniques. Veekie was clear on this - I'm going to be generous and assume you somehow missed his basic point rather than that you dropped it deliberately.

We are a sensor. Train and use it until it's second nature and you have an awareness field of your entire area.

Storing energy? You mean wait years for something to be effective against an enemy in this world?

Chakra just does enhancement better and can actually enhance senses such as smell.

So what exactly did veekie say that makes magecraft so supposedly superior?

Given the complete lack of defence canon Naruto has versus pure-spiritual attacks like the Yamanaka clan's stuff, you are entirely incorrect.

The whole point of familiars is that they're easy to make - you can make one in a day, and aren't beholden to it in any way. Summoning contracts require negotiations, getting them to let you be their summoner, and chakra upkeep.

Naruto sensors are still inferior to Magecraft sensing techniques, short of Hyuuga bullshit.

Storing energy for later use is an excellent bonus, and the ability to do so for years means having huge reserves available, not that it takes that long to get anything worthwhile.

We have no reason to believe that Chakra and Magecraft enhancements can't stack, and Magecraft is explicitly much better at enhancing weapons etc. than Chakra.

The idea of grabbing the low-hanging fruit of each system rather than waste time putting more effort into the parts one system struggles with seems obvious and powerful. Your assertions that this will somehow take longer than doing so are entirely unsubstantiated, and appear to have been made to support your position, as opposed to being reasons for your position.

In summary, not a single one of your attempted rebuttals here has any merit, and Veekie's points stand. Do you just not like the FATE setting?

EDIT: Removed some duplication. Posting on mobile is hard!
 
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.

Point to me where a pencil was made a viable danger to anyone in fateverse. Do it. :V
I mean, Shirou enhanced a rolled-up poster to stand up to a lance literally out of legend, which I think is even weaker than a pencil. It's not that there are no examples of weapon enhancement in Naruto at all, it's just that it's easier and generally stronger in FATE.
 
I mean, Shirou enhanced a rolled-up poster to stand up to a lance literally out of legend, which I think is even weaker than a pencil. It's not that there are no examples of weapon enhancement in Naruto at all, it's just that it's easier and generally stronger in FATE.
It was a limited edition poster made from metal, wasn't it?
 
Given the complete lack of defence canon Naruto has versus pure-spiritual attacks like the Yamanaka clan's stuff, you are entirely incorrect.

The whole point of familiars is that they're easy to make - you can make one in a day, and aren't beholden to it in any way. Summoning contracts require negotiations, getting them to let you be their summoner, and chakra upkeep.

Naruto sensors are still inferior to Magecraft sensing techniques, short of Hyuuga bullshit.

Storing energy for later use is an excellent bonus, and the ability to do so for years means having huge reserves available, not that it takes that long to get anything worthwhile.

We have no reason to believe that Chakra and Magecraft enhancements can't stack, and Magecraft is explicitly much better at enhancing weapons etc. than Chakra.

So in summary, all of his points make a convincing argument, and your rebuttals are so weak that I'm amazed you even typed them out.

The idea of grabbing the low-hanging fruit of each system rather than waste time putting more effort into the parts one system struggles with seems obvious and powerful. Your assertions that this will somehow take longer than doing so are entirely unsubstantiated, and appear to have been made to support your position, as opposed to being reasons for your position.

Do you just not like the FATE setting?
More like Chakra makes Naruto a whole different power scale compared to FATE.

Also you do realize the Yamanaka techniques use chakra as well yes? Meaning they amplify the amount of spiritual power there as well?

I don't quite get what you think Summon contracts do. I can't remember a single time in canon that the contracts require anything other than passing a test to prove you are allowed by the summons to summon them.

How exactly is magecraft supposedly such a superior sensing thing when our sensor abilities lets us sense Chakra of every living thing?

How is Chakra inferior to enhancing weapons? Considering how, for example, Wind Chakra improves cutting power and range and Lighting Chakra improves piercing power.

I repeat, Naruto is a whole nother level of powerscaling. What a mage can take down after a year of storing magic in the FATEverse and what a Shinobi can take down in a year of training is most likely vastly different.

If you want evidence, remember Berserker? There are several people in the Narutoverse that can easily overpower him. And that's assuming Jutsu aren't being used.

Do not underestimate what different scales of power between two series can cause in differences.
 
More like Chakra makes Naruto a whole different power scale compared to FATE.

Also you do realize the Yamanaka techniques use chakra as well yes? Meaning they amplify the amount of spiritual power there as well?

I don't quite get what you think Summon contracts do. I can't remember a single time in canon that the contracts require anything other than passing a test to prove you are allowed by the summons to summon them.

How exactly is magecraft supposedly such a superior sensing thing when our sensor abilities lets us sense Chakra of every living thing?

How is Chakra inferior to enhancing weapons? Considering how, for example, Wind Chakra improves cutting power and range and Lighting Chakra improves piercing power.

I repeat, Naruto is a whole nother level of powerscaling. What a mage can take down after a year of storing magic in the FATEverse and what a Shinobi can take down in a year of training is most likely vastly different.

If you want evidence, remember Berserker? There are several people in the Narutoverse that can easily overpower him. And that's assuming Jutsu aren't being used.

Do not underestimate what different scales of power between two series can cause in differences.
Okay, you're just taking the fact that chakra would win in a straight-up punching fight and ignoring the whole point - that FATE is better at various individual things (many of which unrelated to combat) and that we're best off picking what's best from each system.

I recall no sources saying that Yamanaka clan techniques use full chakra and not just yin.

I think you don't quite get the point that you can make a familiar extremely quickly, where Summoning contracts are extremely rare and will take a great deal of effort to obtain.

The only people capable of chakra sensing on that level have bloodlines. That's not a valid example.

Channeling chakra through weapons is hard in Naruto, usually requiring rare and expensive chakra blades. It's trivial in FATE.

This is again entirely unsubstantiated - there is absolutely no source on how much either of those are, and the comparative punching power of the two systems again misses the point.

I'm not arguing anymore - you do not appear to be understanding what we are saying at all (to a frankly extreme degree) or outright ignoring it, and I am not enjoying repeating the same points over and over.
Durp, I severely misremembered that.
I was under the impression that it was a thin, flexible sheet of metal, from reading the part of the scene when he grabbed it years back.
Nope. You might be recalling the fact that he made it like a sheet of metal through Reinforcement.
 
Naruto sensors are still inferior to Magecraft sensing techniques, short of Hyuuga bullshit.

What is the evidence of this? I remember Shirou being excellent at sniffing out active Magecraft, but that IS like a bloodline. Rin was all but useless at that, and while she was decent to good at sensing inert Prana, I don't remember such a thing being superior to a natural Chakra sensor of Naruto.

Nope. You might be recalling the fact that he made it like a sheet of metal through Reinforcement.

Nope, there WAS a metal poster in the story a bit earlier than that, but it might have been a different poster. Taiga hit Shirou with it, but she forgot it was metallic and knocked him out.

@DarkKing98 Magecraft DOES do some things much better than Chakra/ninjutsu. @Deathbybunnies has a point.
Adhoc vote count started by AoMythology on Aug 3, 2018 at 7:17 PM, finished with 95 posts and 30 votes.
 
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