From Stone to the Stars
- Thread starter Redium
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- Somewhere
That doesn't help explain why they would go with diplomacy first. If they truly thought us lesser and weak. There should be no need to want a lesser group to submit. Just take it. They didn't send the diplomat with a show of force, so that implies they don't care too much if we do submit. This is a war message nothing more, nothing less.
I really am getting the feeling the Arrow Lake sent a diplomat cause it's a game mechanic. And a sign of the ancestors "Fight, Fight, Fight". Honestly, someone else, lower down the civ list, would have attacked us due to prideful arrogance, eventually. We are rather prestigous. I'm just not going 'warning the group you want to enslave, or burn to the ground, makes absolute sense'.
Last edited:
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Even if you can kill someone and take all their stuff doesn't mean you can do so without pain/injuries now think of this on a civ level.
- Location
- Somewhere
We have an implication Arrow Lake is severely overestimating themselves. They, word of QM, believe our refusal will not stop their victory. Yes, negotiations would be easier, but it won't work if Arrow Lake went to the table to fight, which they did go looking for a fight. I'm just disappointed that a neutral option that looks real good for us wasn't on the table instead of ... Only War is the true answer, obviously.
Arrow Lake sent the negotiater expecting our two civ's to go to war. Given that much acknowledgment on Arrow Lake's part, I would expect a sneak attack, or an army at our walls, just happens one day. I was not expecting a declaration of intent to occur before any of that.
Last edited:
- Location
- Anchorage, Alaska
well...this is going to escalate...especially if we manage to rip and tear them apart in the field...I really don't like this but dammit we need to show these fools that we can and will break them.
I'm just worried one of them will get clever and attack a settlement from the inside, the hill settlement that's undergoing a absurd amount of murders seems like the best place to do so...that's if they aren't all killed by a paranoid populous...I think I know where we can get out spies and assassins from guys.
I'm just worried one of them will get clever and attack a settlement from the inside, the hill settlement that's undergoing a absurd amount of murders seems like the best place to do so...that's if they aren't all killed by a paranoid populous...I think I know where we can get out spies and assassins from guys.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Do our shamans do stuff like routinely blessing people and places with rituals yet? Is every baby, puppy, house and boat expected a once-over by a shaman?
How did this look on the ground? Just giving handouts to the families with the best implementation ideas, the clearest memories and oratory skills for the old stories and the deepest insights into their meaning? And then getting really lucky on how the incentives led to unprecedented brainstorming?
Or do you have a different vision as to how you imagine using Tribute to bolster a non-construction megaproject like The Law would look within our civ and what it means to have it result in unprecedented success?
Does that mean that Priit knows the mysteries of all three Holy Orders, not just his own Fangs? Does that happen more frequently among the wiser shaman and such?
I don't understand how the first four would do anything to impede the bloodshed. We already had a system where certain people are formal leaders. It's just that others would like themselves to be those leaders instead, no?
I also don't know what the last option really entails, partly because it is so different from the preceding four.
Could you elaborate a bit on the whole [Gov] vote?
Why does Priit call it "Law" if he himself finds it a strange word?
What do these two options mean?
What did Whole Hearted do and what does it mean for the Pearl Divers that they lost it in favor of Trial by Fire? Also, how did they come to lose it this time, seen from an IC point of view?
I have to agree that what they did seems really incompetent. No gifts, but no show of force either. And immediately asking for an insane amount. Maybe Arrow Lake ended up having whatever the opposite of a Hero is as their leader.
Ah well. Curbstomping it is. Inconvenient though, what with us lacking a war hero young enough to actually go to war. Not to mention my worries of what it will do to the balance down south. We may have to prop them up after defeating them like we did up north.
- Location
- Canada
Hm, here is a thought, what if, he is glad for the war? He may had been happy with a quiet life, but a man like that? Wants to be useful, he lived long enough to witness a new war, with the new system in place, he can pass his knowledge down to the next generation, before he dies off, meaning he is with them in spirit even if he were to die.
No better teacher then life experience, he wont be in the thick of the war, but rather behind the lines advising generals or officers, who I suspect is also his children or grand children who grew up to his stories but knew of his waning years would value what is being taught to them.
No better teacher then life experience, he wont be in the thick of the war, but rather behind the lines advising generals or officers, who I suspect is also his children or grand children who grew up to his stories but knew of his waning years would value what is being taught to them.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
The law is a primordial story of life, its in effect a nucleus of primitive theology.
The one thing it shouldn't be is literalist, metaphor and allagory is what drives the impetus to learn and innovate, and provides the space required to develop and evolve as the times change.
As for leadership, building interlinked blood ties is optimal, as they will eventually become a singular family, and families do have family heads who reign in the wider brood.
The one thing it shouldn't be is literalist, metaphor and allagory is what drives the impetus to learn and innovate, and provides the space required to develop and evolve as the times change.
As for leadership, building interlinked blood ties is optimal, as they will eventually become a singular family, and families do have family heads who reign in the wider brood.
Walker Of Chaos
Best/Worst Dynasty
- Location
- Sweden
So unless their luck holds we should be able to crush Arrow Lake on the field of battle. The main problem should be dealing with the brick walls we built for them (in hindsight not one of our better decisions).
- Location
- Somewhere
We never know, could be a month, could be a day. Usually before a week has ended.
Redium will make a huge post, or small, with a threadmark. The post will have the options for our choices copied over. Make a list of numbered questions about the setting for redium, analyse the current choices, go over prior redium posts, or sleep in the wait time.
Last edited:
Powerful one, but it has to be paired with some degree of elitism or it'd just collapse into a morass of nepotism. It solves our Specialization crisis...for now.
We bought a couple of centuries at least.
And the dark side of Elitism + Flat Arrow Outlook.
Theres a very good reason most elitist societies adapted codes of honor and alternate conflict resolutions when they didn't have an outside enemy to unify them.
...is that Cinnabar? Because most red pigments tended to be dull reds. The only brilliant ones I can think of are Cinnabar and certain forms of Haematite
Yeah, yeah Finger dudes, you're getting yours next.
Push Unity huh?
Either way, Culture is good. Culture push on surrounding people!
...oh shit, someone got metalworking.
Either gold or copper, but they're on the road.
We probably want to lock in Study Fire soon.
Assimilation plot proceeding apace.
They've been beating on a collapsing civilization for slaves, and got mad at the people making sure they don't finish collapsing and keep providing slaves?
They feel like they got a big dick, with their brick walls and early pre-warrior class, but without any kind of war experience.
[ ] [Gov] The People should deffer now to a single leader.
Kingship. Kings and centralized authorities are amazing at building megaprojects and concentrating forces in war. Not so good at hole filling.
Downside is that all the problems of fog of war are going to compound even further. The King is physically incapable of providing supervision to more than one place at a time.
[ ] [Gov] The People should formalize their Council of Three forevermore.
Ruling Council. Maintain our current leadership format to ensure no one maniac can drive the community where they like, but also making it harder to change extant practices. New settlements will not be happy, since they're always subordinate to the original trio.
[ ] [Gov] The People should have a council with a representative of each settlement.
This is problematic, because if we expand, it gets less and less practical to assemble a full council. Its just too hard to travel.
[ ] [Gov] The People should govern themselves foremost locally, coming together for larger issues.
Convert to federation. Great for Build Wide. Kind of crap at war however, and good luck getting any kind of megaproject organized without everyone bitching about why the project isn't at THEIR place first where its obviously superior.
[ ] [Gov] The People's rulers should build ties within themselves so that they no longer fight for power.
Form Noble class. Leverage our Blood Bonds to push against Flat Arrow Outlook, but further increase the nepotism. We'd have a more regular transition of authority in this way, and feuds would be more low key because its all with people they aren't allowed to kill.
Law side...
[ ] [Record] In full, as well as the People could commit it to stone.
Best at conveying specific laws down the ages, least room for creative interpretation in one party or another's favor.
Good for stability, but it'd find difficulty keeping up with changing society with time. If Aeva was alive, this wouldn't be a bad idea, she'd be able to make it work.
I don't think Priit is up to the kind of micromanagement, but this IS the most likely to spur the development of Writing to get it done.
[ ] [Record] In metaphour, understood best through study and understanding.
Try to convey the spirit of the law. What principles should take precedence?
Does prevention of harm or repaying the victim come before punishment of misdeed? Does equality refer to using the same punishment for all offenders, or should there be different punishments for man, woman and child based on their ability with withstand it?
This is up Priit's alley I think. He's a strongly moral person, if he can express it. He's learned that there isn't a simple and clear rule
[ ] [Record] As a supplement, a way to expand on the stories that the People would tell.
This makes the Law secondary, and rides on our existing values, reinforcing them further. Given that said values are CAUSING the problem I think we can say this is a bad one.
[ ] [Record] In pictures, demonstrating the proper ways to live.
This would...record how to farm, how to hunt, how to build. An instruction manual with no moral beyond that you should do these things properly. Useful of course, but probably most likely to be horribly misunderstood down the line.
[ ] [Core] On Behalf of Future Generations.
Think of the Future. This is a good one with our switching to a noble ruling class...though it all too easily becomes "think of MY future generations".
Better tolerance for long term projects for the greater good, but increased nepotism.
[ ] [Core] Revere the Spirits
Listen to the priesthood. This is...not such a good idea when we're converting to a Noble system. Cross purposes.
[ ] [Core] Social Unity
Stay United. More hammering of nails that stick out, but also more social cohesion in a crisis and fairer laws in general(you can only really GET social unity if the laws at least look fair)
[ ] [Core] Balance of People
Equality. Think of the little people.
Counter to the nobility we're picking up. Beware of cross purposes.
[ ] [Core] Power in all Things
@Redium need some IC clarification of what this is trying to say, since I don't get it.
I think this is something like "theres value in everything"?
[ ] [Core] Benefit the Land
Early Environmentalism. Probably due to the Hunt, we know the powers of the natural world have their limits and we should avoid breaking them.
Probably not going to win since it gives us a competitive disadvantage, and people don't want to be another Ymaryn.
[ ] [Ask] Concede on every point.
[ ] [Ask] Partially concede. Stop feeding the Mountain Clans and raid them for workers to pay off Arrow Lake.
[ ] [Ask] Refuse all of their demands.
[ ] [Ask] Bring it, boy.
There is only one answer here: Bring it bitches.
Break and scatter them.
Preferred vote:
[ ] [Gov] The People's rulers should build ties within themselves so that they no longer fight for power.
[ ] [Record] In metaphour, understood best through study and understanding.
[ ] [Core] On Behalf of Future Generations.
[ ] [Core] Social Unity
[ ] [Core] Power in all Things
[ ] [Ask] Bring it, boy.
Core vote may yet change however.
Depends on clarification
Virian
Sage of Reason and incomplete information
- Location
- Where logic has never been before
- Pronouns
- he/him
[] [Gov] The People should deffer now to a single leader.
[] [Record] In full, as well as the People could commit it to stone.
[] [Core] On Behalf of Future Generations.
[] [Ask] Bring it, boy.
Honestly I believe this would be the best. Also are they idiots over estimating themselves or do they have outside support of another tribe? Because I doubt someone could be that stupid on their own but you never know.
[] [Record] In full, as well as the People could commit it to stone.
[] [Core] On Behalf of Future Generations.
[] [Ask] Bring it, boy.
Honestly I believe this would be the best. Also are they idiots over estimating themselves or do they have outside support of another tribe? Because I doubt someone could be that stupid on their own but you never know.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Wow their ungrateful bastards, we even gave them a stone wall that we can't defeat, that noone can. All we can do is starve them, trick them or slaughter their external citizens.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Power in all things sounds like a drive to Excellence in one's persuets, (maybe a belief that there is value in all things done right, or that ones worth is determine by his expertise.)
Or a mystical idea of significance in all things, (perhaps becoming household and object spirits) quite useful for both philosophy/mysticism and craftsmenship development.
In either case, it should blend well with the other options, both as a means of selecting for skill in a familial structure, or binding the elite to those below them by emphasising their worth, or even allowing for new avenues to social advancement by brilliance in other fields.
(For example a brilliant Potter may not become a small or big man, but he can likely arrange for his children to climb up a rank.
In many a fuedal society, the non aristocracy routinely became aristocrats by virtue of a skilled generation marrying its offspring into nobility, or they themselves marrying into it in case of wartime heroics)
Last edited:
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Eh, gratitude and what not is a personal thing, relations, oaths and pacts are all personal (or familial) in this era and the following dozen.
Their current leadership is not obliged to us in the slightest, they are only obliged to thier own interests vis a vis us.
Civ level relations are all transient on the century scale.
Possible. Most are vague, but this is vague enough I don't know what Priit thinks he's choosing.
Sounds like animism in terms of Powerful tools, animals, places and secrets.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
@maximillian did mention a few times that we should really develop such a thing by pressing on Folk Wrestling. It may not be too late yet.
Aeva may have been a damn genius, but she still was an illiterate stone age savage, like everyone else that ever lived. We shouldn't even think of going with clear literal rules until we something like a class of scholars/philosophers with access to a large variety of books and the ability to write their own. Especially since whatever Law we construct now (and inscribe into our most ancient and primordial temples within the three oldest and greatest cities from before history itself) will inevitably intertwine itself with our religion and thus obtain "Sacred" status. And we all know what happens when a society has crappy sacred laws.
@Redium one more question: Proscriptive values (IWTBTVB, Retributive Justice) demand certain actions or behavior from people for them to be considered 'good' or 'righteous'. Prohibitive values (Blood Brothers) say that everyone who does certain things is 'bad'. Our religious values explain how the world works on a metaphysical level and how to gain the most favor and benefit from the spirits. But how does a permissive value like Flat-Arrow Outlook express itself exactly?
Like, how are we different from a hypothetical society that has no values relevant to violence or cohesion and doesn't vilify using violence? Are people who could kill their enemies, physically punish those below them, and hurt human obstacles in their way but don't, considered weak and unworthy in our society? Or is it more that there is something like Default Human Values (Examples: protect family, obtain wealth and status, use violence as a last resort, enjoy art in moderation, fear the unknown, cooperate with tribe) and the Values that each civ have are only mentioned insofar they noticeably diverge from that baseline?
Sol Zagato
senseless brute
Priit is about 80% convinced you could take Arrow Lake. The only reason he's even 20% unsure is if Arrow Lake has developed something that's made their boundless confidence justified.
Think about how the situation looks from their perspective. Two generations ago, you were begging for help and getting absolutely savaged by the Northlands. In the generation after that, the numbers of warriors you had station in the Fingers dropped enormously (due to you sending them to fight with the Peace Builders). As far as the traders from Arrow Lake could tell, you ran out of warriors.
The reason that they're offering an ultimatum instead of simply attacking is because they think you'll give in. Your warrior situation looks extremely dire and in the past you revealed the secret of making brick walls to them. This gift has been horribly twisted over time into a sign of submission and recognition of Arrow Lake's greatness.
Combined with the fact that you're giving food to the Mountain Clans (trying to bribe them off from attacking you, it looks like) and they're certain you're weak and will capitulate.
The shaman don't bless things so much, that's much, much later theology. They will be consulted before hand to 'determine the signs'. While this is considered spiritual knowledge, there's an element of practicality to it. A pregnant mother will consult with the shaman to determine if her pregnancy is healthy. An injured warrior with ask to see if they can do anything to heal his wounds before rot sets in. A farmer will seek out a shaman to determine if his field will fall victim to 'brown death' (grub infestations) when he plants it. The shaman also track fields for renewal; after a while, for some reason, the People's fields simply stop working. The farmers will have to move on and burn down a new section of forest for fields while allowing the forest to reclaim their old plot.
No, Priit knows only the Fang's mysteries. He has a little bit of a grasp on the Frost-Scarred's mysteries, but he would hold himself as nearly ignorant of the Ember-Eyes.
This is more a codification of the stories already passed around. Priit's famous and popular enough that he was able to call a conclave of elders and storytellers and get them to agree on a shared canon of stories. Remember, during the winter, the People have nothing to do. They can't gather food (except for hunters), they can't make pottery or brick, most don't travel. All they can do is spend time together, talk, play games/gamble, tell stories, or play music.
This is a straight up government upgrade. Your decision to tie leadership to bloodline meant that you can no longer let anyone become a Big Man. This is a good thing because in your hyper-competitive and violent society, everyone wants desperately to be a leader and is willing to kill for it. By limiting who can become a leader, you're limiting the back alley slaughter.
It's a word that's used to reply to something permanent, like a building. He's applying a more metaphorical turn to it which sounds strange to his ears.
Balance of People means figuring out a system of law that works for everyone, from the lowest Debtor to the highest Big Man. It's balancing their needs an interests and how that is necessary for society.
Power In All Things is a codification of your current hyper-competitive, meritocratic, murderous society. It very much pushes Might Makes Right.
Whole Hearted is basically that everyone needs to go into a difficult situation with no hesitation or doubt. Trial By Fire is an admonishment to keep going, no matter what. They're very similar.
Nope. Power In All Things is a codification of your current hyper-competitive, meritocratic, murderous society. It very much pushes Might Makes Right.
Think about what the other minerals you have access to and you can figure it out. The red dye was first made in Crystal Lake.
This would push you towards Tribal Confederation, but only as a temporary stop. You're too centralized to fully make that change. You're much more likely to stay there until you build up enough population and can transition to League of City-States.
Think also on what message you're going to be sending to others. The Law will be written on the walls of every one of your Temples. Every trader who comes to bargain for goods and every pilgrim that comes to consult the spirits at the Cave of Stars will see this Law and learn it.
For the most part, your Values are more descriptive than prescriptive. They talk about how the People behave, not what they believe. You're not socially advanced enough to determined 'how to live a good life'. You need Classical Philosophy for that. Right now, your Values demonstrate how the People differ from a completely 'average' civilization. No matter what, you'll still have staples like 'value your friends and family', 'seek excellence', 'secure resources', etc.
Yes.
Vote is Open!
Government Upgrade:
[ ] [Gov] The People should deffer now to a single leader.
[ ] [Gov] The People should formalize their Council of Three forevermore.
[ ] [Gov] The People should have a council with a representative of each settlement.
[ ] [Gov] The People should govern themselves foremost locally, coming together for larger issues.
[ ] [Gov] The People's rulers should build ties within themselves so that they no longer fight for power.
The Law would be depicted:
[ ] [Record] In full, as well as the People could commit it to stone.
[ ] [Record] In metaphour, understood best through study and understanding.
[ ] [Record] As a supplement, a way to expand on the stories that the People would tell.
[ ] [Record] In pictures, demonstrating the proper ways to live.
In the end, Priit decided that the core message he would send was:
[ ] [Core] On Behalf of Future Generations.
[ ] [Core] Revere the Spirits
[ ] [Core] Social Unity
[ ] [Core] Balance of People
[ ] [Core] Power in all Things
[ ] [Core] Benefit the Land
How do you respond to Arrow Lake's ultimatum?
[ ] [Ask] Concede on every point.
[ ] [Ask] Partially concede. Stop feeding the Mountain Clans and raid them for workers to pay off Arrow Lake.
[ ] [Ask] Refuse all of their demands.
[ ] [Ask] Bring it, boy.
- Location
- yorkshire
Lets kick arrogant slaver arse
[X] [Gov] The People's rulers should build ties within themselves so that they no longer fight for power.
[X] [Record] In metaphour, understood best through study and understanding.
[X] [Core] Social Unity
[X] [Core] Balance of People
[X] [Ask] Bring it, boy.
[X] [Record] In metaphour, understood best through study and understanding.
[X] [Core] Social Unity
[X] [Core] Balance of People
[X] [Ask] Bring it, boy.
Last edited:
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
WHEN WE VOTE ON GOVERNMENT AND LAW!!!!
We must remember that our society is very elitist and murderous. These traits will not be conducive to a stable society if people keep doing Klingon Promotions. One of the things that weakened the authority of Rome is that generals kept getting legions, becoming popular with said legions, and then using those legions to seize the throne for themselves.
We need a way to keep people from just murdering their way to the top, only to be slaughtered by the person immediately below them. It will hurt our institution and bog it down with paranoia and violence if people just keep killing their way to power.
We must remember that our society is very elitist and murderous. These traits will not be conducive to a stable society if people keep doing Klingon Promotions. One of the things that weakened the authority of Rome is that generals kept getting legions, becoming popular with said legions, and then using those legions to seize the throne for themselves.
We need a way to keep people from just murdering their way to the top, only to be slaughtered by the person immediately below them. It will hurt our institution and bog it down with paranoia and violence if people just keep killing their way to power.