The Pearl Divers look really huge on the map, with distances maybe even bigger than ours. @Redium do we have any idea how they manage their social cohesion problems that you mentioned about us?
Also, where did Aeva meet their council? In the nearest village at the river mouth or somewhere where she actually had to traverse the saltwater to go?
Lastly, are their large political meetings town based or do they routinely all meet up at a single place to talk big stuff.
Nah, we need to settle river bend before we can settle further down the river, so we should do that next turn while we know our food is good.
Also, locking in temples feels like a waste of our new legacy to me.
Finally, a question for @Redium (or anyone else who's figured it out). Is locking in buildings done the normal way, or is it done by having them in every settlement?
[x] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
[x] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Encourage the People's traders to find something else they can trade for.
[x] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[x] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
@Redium
1. Is this close to Kaspar's appearance, or a common physical type in our tribe?
2. What is the most 'evil' possible combination of values and traits that doesn't self-combust immediately?
3. Shouldn't there be people to the South that have more experience with agriculture and have filled their lands to carrying capacity? Shouldn't they be migrating North into our neighbors?
[X] [Dedication] Scenes of a Surreal, Otherworldly Quality
[X] [Value] And they've revealed themselves as spirits of reward but also vicious struggle. (Value Synergy)
[X] [Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.
[X] [Action] Gather information to interfere with the Peace Builders growing hegemony of the southern lands (Trade: The South)
[X] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
[X] [Dedication] Scenes of a Surreal, Otherworldly Quality
[X] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[X] [Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.
[X] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[X] [Action] Gather information to interfere with the Peace Builders growing hegemony of the southern lands (Trade: The South)
Oh yeah. @Redium Will the actions here count as having been done 'This Turn' and thus have one charge out of the three needed to lock the action in permanently?
You're mostly quarrying limestone. That's soft enough that you can usually chip it out with granite tools. During the summers, workers will generally just chip away at the limestone blocks to form them. During the fall, winter, and spring, where the temperature still dips below freezing at night, workers will simply pour water down in between the blocks, causing it to expand to ice and fracture off the blocks.
You don't really have the technology to quarry granite en mass yet.
Expanding mussels gives you a research chance every time you do it. It's how the Pearl Divers discovered pearls.
Mussel shells are also more efficient to gather than limestone. Extracting limestone blocks is hard work while mussel shells only have to be picked up and they provide food while doing it.
Huh, some of the sites I read did recommend hypothyroidism but as this sounded like a disease I wasn't expecting it to have been true. What was the cause of this infection in the first place?
If you mean someone who's normal pretending to be spirit-touched? If they're caught, the People will beat them severely and then force them into being a Debtor. Faking being a shaman is basically stealing food.
Flat Arrow Outlook and Retributive Justice are a bit at odds. Retributive Justice is all about making the punching stop. Flat Arrow Outlook and Stone-Skinned do work fairly well together internally. Externally, other tribes see you constantly turtling up while being snappish and aggressive.
Do other Tribes have an oral history explaining why we could potentially act this way, such as our wars against the Hundred Bands and later South Lake?
Less, but only because I don't track Heroes for civilizations you haven't discovered yet. You have produced a high number of Heroes over all, but the other tribes are catching up. You've just been lucky so far.
Yes, they're recovering. How advanced someone is agriculturally is more how many and how effective their fields are. There's a sort of gradient where quality of fields and number multiply off of each other to get the final result.
That's good to know. I'm guessing then that we don't have many fields at all even though we are next to a river then? Is the great river even suitable for agriculture?
This has been put into practice extensively. Mixing mica into white wash makes it sparkle and that does a lot to lighten the insides of otherwise dark longhouses. The only reason Mica isn't trending is because no one else really uses brick buildings.
Stubbornness for many of the old folks who grew up thinking that way. Half-forgotten racism for many as well.
It wasn't that long ago that Anthropology as a discipline was heavily racist. Race science and the hierarchy of racial intelligence aren't that far removed; for most science in the 1950s, 60s, even into the 70s, there was a great dismissal of non-white achievements. The Mississippi Mound Builders were a massive civilization that dominated most of the Mississippi watershed and built enormous mounds of earth, some even larger than the pyramids! It was presumed that there was a lost white race (some even suggested Biblical giants!) that actually built those and the Native Americans were squatters, if anthropologists thought these massive mounds were man-made at all. Many insisted they were natural.
Another case: the great Churches and Mosques of sub-Saharan Africa. People insisted that they were obviously built by European (or Muslim) immigrants since sub-Saharan Africans clearly couldn't build the massive kingdoms and structures found there. Most of the sophisticated societies that were below the Sahara were destroyed or marginalized like the (Christian) Kingdom of Mali, (Jewish and Muslim) Empire of Abyssinia (Ethiopia), Zulu Empire, and others. After these societies were totally destroyed and much of their culture and technology lost, Europeans took it to mean that they were always in that semi-destroyed state. Same thing with the Native Americans.
The insistence on the small, egalitarian hunter-gather bands is simply a continuation of this school of thought. It's lost most of its explicitly racial science, but it's still based in Rousseau's proposed State of Nature and the Noble Savage, backed up by Europeans generally having apocalyptic effects on any civilizations they came across. Those concepts of Rousseau, while superficially okay, still have racist thoughts clinging to them that haven't been shaken off.
There's also some element of politicization at work from both left and right. The left holds it up as obviously Socialism and Communism or Anarchism are natural, while the right posits that any of those ideologies would obviously limit growth.
Lastly, there's often just not any money involved in Anthropology. For the most part, people don't care about the past. A company's not going to drop a couple millions dollars to outfit a team of researchers and government grants are extremely limited. Anthropology thus has to be 'sold', you need to convince people that your science is worthwhile and there's an element of confirmation bias there. A fund source is not going to be happy when you come up with an answer that contradicts all of their expectations.
Is that why they seem to be building tall rather than wide right now? Because as far as I remember the Island Makers seem to have coveted the land once held by the Hundred Bands and then South Lake, yet now that they have it, it doesn't seem like they are expanding, at least no overtly.
Yes. Generally, the Faction with the highest Prestige will find more of themselves in the resulting fusion. Military supremacy, numbers, Religious Authority, cultural supremacy; all of those also influence things.
That makes sense. If we do end up fusing with another tribe, such as Arrow Lake, how would it occur exactly? I doubt it will be like way earlier in the quest when we essentially fused with the River Bend tribe right? Such as what options will as the players be given to choose from? How much of the tribe we are fusing with, or assimilating if that's the same, do we need to take on? Such as their old values?
Only a little bit. Do it or Die is more of a stubbornness/hyper-focus trait. It encourages someone to go balls to the wall if they invest in something at all. Trial By Fire encourages risk-taking.
So does it give a bonus to them when it comes to doing continuous actions or actions in line with their goals then? Not entirely sure how that would work mechanically.
They had trading partners to the south; remember South Lake had a small amount of Lapis Lazuli that they could trade to you as well. They got that from an intermediate tribe between them and Arrow Lake whom they eventually ended up completely enslaving.
Firing slits are out because it's too cold and longhouses are basically one giant open area. The number of gaps would cause so much heat to leak out. Additionally, you haven't discovered arrow slits yet.
That makes sense, though when it comes to arrow slits, how far down the line would that theoretically be? I'm also not even sure if our bows would even function well enough to make arrow slits useful. Also, if we wanted to say direct more development towards say developing a better bow, how exactly would we get the innovation to do so? As I think we have enough of the tech to possibly create more complex bows right now.
The techniques would differ. With quinoa, you have to deal more with pests like insects or disease. For corn, you're more concerned with rabbits, raccoons, deer, or orkers eating them.
That's good to know, but what I was getting at was would the field systems we develop for our agricultural practices differ greatly when it comes to planting corn and quinoa? Such as the shape of the fields, amount of irrigation and so forth?
You're likely more violent than some polities (Arrow Lake and Pearl Divers), but more forgiving than others (Bond Breakers, South Lake, Tribe of the West). Look at the Peace Builders, for example: Do It or Die and Open Hand, Closed Fist synergize in a way that's really, really bad. They needed to develop Speaking Circle and Protective Justice in order to bring an end to the vicious intra-tribal feuds that had rocked them for decades.
South Lake and the Bond Breakers are locked in a desperate, existential war. Both of them are taking on as many elitist, stabilizing, violence, and struggle traits that they can in order to fight their way.
The Mountain Clans are raiders, at this point by necessity, but they'll start doing it out of habit as they stabilize more and more. They've swollen with so many refugees that their old lifestyle isn't sustainable any more so they have to either take, or figure out how on earth to farm.
Out of curiosity, which of the Peace Builders traits that they currently have are ones they inherited from the Mound Builders? As right now it seems that the Peace Builders reflect more of their heritage as the Peace Seekers than the Mound Builders. Curiously, what would've happened had the Peace Seekers not subverted the Mound Builders? Were our fears of potential conflict with them justified at the time? What do the Peace Builders think of us now? The last update hinted at them liking us, likely due to our dominant pilgrimage trade.
When it comes to South Lake and the Bond Breakers, from what we can see from the map you posted, it looks like South Lake is undergoing a resurgence as they have taken territory that was previously that of the Bond Breakers. How have the South Lake's value traits changed as a result of their...crippling due to multiple factions? I'm guessing that vengeful mention was pretty apt. Also, is it only the Bond Breakers that South Lake is fighting? What of the Tribe of the West? Did our pull out of the war embolden others to pull out as well?
Considering how in the last update they failed in their attempts to raid Arrow Lake and the Island Makers, have those defeats changed their attitudes? As it doesn't look like they have any easy marks to target anymore when it comes to raiding for sustenance, so what will they do now that they don't have targeted neighbors? It seems that they also have a settlement on the map, so is that evidence of change? Also, considering their mention in the leaderboards, are the Mountain Tribes now one distinct group rather than a collection of peoples like before?
Not really. Aeva (and other Heroes too) has noticed that if the Peace Builders come to dominant the south lands, they will eclipse the People. Same thing for the flood plains all around the Fingers. Whoever starts to dominate them first is going to completley roll over their neighbours because of the immense amount of food it would produce.
How close exactly are the Peace Builders to dominating the Southern Lands? We know that they have recently been succeeding in their wars down south and have integrated two tribes, but have the other tribes recognized the danger of the Peace Builders to them yet or are their previous animosities preventing them from countering them? Also, short of war, is their anything we can do to cut short their ascendancy?
When it comes to the flood plains around the Fingers, which direction of river are you referring too? Are you speaking of the Great River which leads from Crystal Lake to the Fingers, the westward river? Or are you speaking about the Valge River, leading southwards towards the Island Makers? Also is the White River the same as the Valge River?
You should've gotten it a while ago, but I forgot to add it. You get it for having 3 Holy Orders. The (Three) indicates it's the first level of the trait. The next levels are (Five) and (Seven).
It basically makes it so that your Holy Orders are harder to destroy.
I don't think I've commented on the metal content in the region? I've acknowledged that Tin is rare in North America, but I've also said that you'll have a chance to get it purely on dice rolls.
I will advise that you start deciding on whether you want to build Tall or build wide soon. You're kind of in-between now and it's hurting you from doing either. If you want to build Tall, build the Hills and Temples so that you can get them locked in as soon as possible. If you want to build wide, start dropping settlements, like next turn. Most of the Wide builders are soon getting to the point where they'll be twice your size (in controlled area, you technically have more uncontrolled turf).
Will these dice rolls for getting tin be a one time roll or will it be multiple rolls to find a site? As far as I remember in the Bronze Age, the only known sites of tin were in Anatolia in the Tarsus Region, some small sites in Italy, and then some in England in the areas of modern day Brittany and Cornwall, alongside Bavaria, and Gallicia. That's not a lot of sights considering how far away some of them were from the Mediterranean.
Is going both Tall and Wide not possible?
Also, when it comes to locking in constructions such as Hills and Temples, how exactly would we do that? Right now it looks like creating Hills or Temples are much more intensive actions than say creating a new settlement. Considering we've just built Temples and our current massive technological lead, what exactly would be the downsides for us if we expanded rather than continued developing our main centers of civilization? Because right now, it seems like going wide might be better as you've noted due to the fact that so much territory is still up for grabs, especially key agricultural areas like the flood plains you mentioned. What exactly would going tall do to help us, when you've explicitly mentioned that those that control certain areas, would be able to snap us over their knees due to their expansion? The only likely way we could stop that expansion or pre-empt it would be to expand ourselves through going wide, so I'm just curious as to the benefits of going tall.
You should also think about whether you want to dominate Rahu Bay and the lands south of it in the west or control the White River's flood plain in the east. If you don't go for either, the Faction that gets one of them will be able to snap you over their knee.
How exactly would we dominate Rahu Bay? I mean we currently have a settlement on it in the form of Hill Guard with a potential future settlement near the North Bay. Right now it looks like our access to the South of the Bay appears to be blocked by the Peace Builders, and I don't think many of us are keen on starting a war with them due to a number of their traits, like Sacred War. So how could we feasibly contest or even dominate Rahu Bay is what I'm asking? Also, what exactly about controlling Rahu Bay gives the civilization who does so, so much power? @Redium
Just for clarification. Are the White River's flood plains, the one near the Fingers, the southern fork of it that leads into Veri Lake, or is it the eastern fork that leads to the Pearl Builders? I assume that the only one to dominate either of those are to build settlements there for farming purposes to fuel population growth right?
Hmmm...assuming we continue onto the next age intact, will buildings like this just disappear or can we upgrade them over time? Especially as the Temple of Stars seems like a wonder in some ways.
How exactly does cultural stuff in the trading stuff work? How do you trade culture I mean, and what exactly does it do for us when it's leading or dominant like we are now? Because it seems different from just trading resources, as its less tangible.
It will fuse with and improve your existing value. Your value will get better, but a new axis will be added to it along the type of value you're fusing in.
Gotcha, so these synergy actions are essentially upgrades then, with the values it is synergizing with being improved?
When you mean new axis, does that mean instead of just improving upon the single aspect the value was originally meant for, such as with stone skinned being exclusively about defenses, would that new axis be like adding something else the value now accounts for in a sense, such as potentially all earthwork in general or spiritual earthwork?
When you say that, are the tools immediate or will we have to take multiple turns to develop the tools?
Also can you give us examples of the kind of problems going over max would create? Since we haven't done it before we don't really know what the cons would do in case we do pick it.
It's the same as having effectively +1 Mysticism all the time. Legacies can be powerful, but the difference is often small mechanically. Heroic Start only gives you +1 on rolls involving a Hero, but it's been extremely important to you. It saved Kaspar's life literally twice when I rolled for old age.
The difference at each individual stat point is a huge difference. For example, you're currently at:
Can you explain how some of these values are calculated and what we can do to affect each one?
For example I can understand how we have a martial value of 4, in that we have professional warriors, values that support violence, and multiple holy orders that are rather good at fighting.
I can also see how we have an economic value of two due to our reliance still on hunting, with only aquaculture for wild rice being very developed, while our agriculture is not developed.
When it comes to art however, how exactly is that measured and what does it encompass?
When it comes to diplomacy, it seems odd to me that we have a -1 considering how many trading partners we seem to have. So how is that score determined?
Magic to me seems to be referring to our "magic" or technologies that we've developed, which seems rather straightforward to gain. However, I'm guessing due to convenient math that our magic is what is bolstering our negative stats. Is that the only stat that can do that?
When it comes to having 0 for a value, what exactly does that do for us, and what does being in the negative for a stat?
Finally, do you know if we could have an example stat sheet to compare to so that we can get a frame of reference for this? Like with the Arrow Lake tribe or something?
The People! (Prestige: 23, Army: Professional Neolithic Warriors and Holy Orders, Economy: Hunter-Gatherer with early Agriculture, Art: Sacred Construction and High Quality Tools, Magic: Fire, Stone, and Spirit)
Tribe of the West (Prestige: 18, Army: Numerous Professional Neolithic Warriors, Economy: Recovering Agriculture, Art: Innumerable Tools, Magic: Life and the Living)
Peace Builders (Prestige: 18, Army: Fanatical Neolithic Warriors, Economy: Broad Agriculture and Aquaculture, Art: Ephemeral Crafts and Imported Quality Tools, Magic: Of Song and Story)
Island Makers (Prestige: 15, Army: Elite Neolithic Warriors, Economy: Intense Early Agriculture, Art: Advanced Quality Tools, Magic: Earth and Water)
Arrow Lake (Prestige: 13, Army: Informal and Untrained Militia, Economy: Early Agriculture, Art: Sacred Iconography, Magic: Stone)
Pearl Divers (Prestige: 10, Army: Informal Militia, Economy: Early Fishing and Aquaculture, Art: Beautified Dependable Tools, Magic: Sea and Salt)
South Lake (Prestige: 9, Army: Vengeful Killers, Economy: Hungry, Art: Cruel Weapons, Magic: Bloody and Black)
Bond Breakers (Prestige: 5, Army: Broken and Scattered Rabble, Economy: Moderate Starvation, Art: Durable Weapons, Magic: Little)
When it comes to the new leaderboard here are my thoughts on it.
No surprise, we're still on top with a value of 23 prestige.
The Tribe of the West seems to have improved slightly as well, at least in one respect, with their economy noted to be recovering rather than battered.
The Peace Builders have vaulted up a lot compared to where they were last time, by two Prestige, tying for second with the Tribe of the West. Their economy seems powerful at the moment as they have broad agriculture and aquaculture, we need to watch out for them before they leapfrog us.
The Island Makers also seemed to have retained their place.
Arrow Lake seems to have improved slightly compared to before by gaining one more prestige but otherwise staying the same.
The Pearl Divers have stayed the same.
South Lake is resurgent, and that's a bad thing. Last time they were at 7 prestige and equal to the Bond Breakers in their rankings. Now they have vaulted significantly above the Bond Breakers. When we take a look at where their economy is now compared to back then, the fact that they have moved up from near starvation to hungry does not bode well for us. Right now they seem to have a decisive advantage over the Bond Breakers and if they surge back even further I would not be surprised if they start taking out their vengeance on everyone else.
The Bond Breakers as noted are doing horribly. They've lost 3 prestige compared to last time. Their economy went from Hungry to Moderate Starvation. All of this points to them collapsing relatively soon against South Lake, and when that happens things will be bloody and we might have another war on our hands.
The Mountain Clans seem the same aside from their economy changing.
The Northlands also seem unchanged.
The River Tribe we obviously know nothing about as all we've heard about are rumors.
When it comes to the new map, here are my thoughts.
Our territory seems to have expanded somewhat, especially around Hill Guard. When it comes to the Temple of Stars, even though we don't have a settlement there it appears that others recognize that, rightfully, it is our territory.
The Peace Builders seem to have expanded significantly, as was expected, seeing as we can't even see their southern border on this.
It seems like they and the Island Makers have also discovered shrines lately if that is what those smaller temple symbols indicate.
The Mountain Clans have also developed a fixed settlement now.
As was noted before the Bond Breakers have lost territory to the South Lake tribe, which is bad.
Now that we can see the Pearl Divers, we now know where their salterns are likely located, as well as the fact that they seem to be very widely spread out, even compared to us. It's also no surprise that they also have ports.
For Diplomacy, it signifies that you're using the sheer power of magic to intimidate or cajole the tribes around you. Essentially, you do things like give Arrow Lake walls or help the Pearl Divers with their saltern.
Mysticism basically represents intellectual capital and educated people. Magic to Mysticism means that you're using all of your practical, esoteric resources to boost the intellectual capabilities of the People.
So considering we haven't even given the Pearl Divers help with their saltern, is even the mere possibility of using our magic to help others a boon for diplomacy?
How is our magic stat directed? Is it conscious, or will it always try to fill in the gaps to negative stats? Does mysticism also influence magic in a way too, and if so, how do other tribes without this stat revealed deal with innovations?
I have general plans for how each area of the world is going to develop over the course of several turns. I throw dice every so often to add some randomness to things so that they don't develop predictably. With all of that in mind, I'd back fill their traits and stats in once you end up in contact with them.
How influential are the events determined by your dice? Do you simply throw dice in a narrow focus for certain regions or civilizations, or are predetermined events or catastrophes also determined by the dice as well, such as volcanic eruptions and such which can influence civilizations?
To some extent, there's a 'path of least resistance' with some events. If Egypt has the Nile, then they're likely to become a super-power early on. That's simply what the Nile would do. On the other hand, I'm going to consciously mess with history so that it's unrecognizable. If everything is exactly like our world, that's too easy for the players.
Just out of curiosity, when you mean mess with history, how far are you going to go to mess with it? You always mention the giant sloth cavalry of South America, how fantastical could these changes be?
Trending trade goods cause Stability damage if you lose access to them. Salt is currently trending so if the People's neighbours get hooked on it, it would give you a weapon to hold over them. Denying access to salt at a critical moment would damage Stability and could push a Faction to collapse.
Similar to our thinking before changes in climates caused the south to starve, we used to think we could do this with South Lake with obsidian. How exactly would it change if we refused access to salt, but in this case are simply acting as the middle man, and how exactly would we promote the trade of salt to get this result?
The drawings on the ivory door are going to be influential for your religion. They are going to be tied up into the legend of the Cave of Stars and Kaspar. A surrealist image is likely to make your religion more mysterious and mystic. The struggle value will also tie into your religion, but it's primary effect is on your current Values.
Do the drawings on the ivory door change or boost the values they represent, or is it more directing the ways our value will be perceived in the future as this door is somewhat like a permanent record of sorts?
Debts are important, but not that important. You're eligible to pick up a Debt related honour value the next time you have a slot open, but until that happens, debts aren't considered that important. You wouldn't go to war over an unpaid debt unless it had caused harm to the People. The Pearl Divers don't place as much value on debt as you. They see gifts primarily as a way to prove your fitness, your connections, and your wit. They're given first as a sort of resume. In the People, gifts are extended first and then it's up to the recipient to prove worthy of it. A member of the People would only be compelled to serve after they failed to repay a gift they willingly accepted. You couldn't spontaneously give a gift in order to force another into debt.
The reason that the Pearl Divers want to find something else to trade with you is because you're actually taking most of their pearls. It's hard for them to officially run their government if no one can speak because they don't have enough pearls to do it properly.
Considering we have so many pearls, as it's been implied, could we conceivably use the pearls we have to influence the inner workings of the Pearl Divers? Such as using it in a transaction to speak or something?
The flood plain to the east? Settling River-Bend will open two settlement sites, one near the three lakes south of the Great River, by the Cave of Stars, and a second along the river down to the Island Makers. You'll want to grab the second site. That will open up another settlement site just north of the Island Makers that you can nab to fully lock down the southern border.
Aeva would also suggest raiding the Mountain Clans until they pull back far enough that they give up on the island in the middle of White River. That's actually a settlement site as well, but you can't settle it since control is contested. That will secure the flood plain's eastern flank. If they settle it, it will make digging them out and securing the flood plain a pain.
On your map I thought it was River Fork that was the closest potential settlement next to the Cave of Stars? Would River Fork not help?
Anyways, is settling River Bend only advantageous because it allows us another route to expand southwards using the waterways? Also, what is so important about locking down the Southern Border, and how exactly does that allow us to dominate the region compared to, as you suggested taking the settlement site on the island in the White River which would give us nominal control of the flood plains? Are the flood plains the lighter green tiles on the map?
Another question, @Redium ? But how exactly is control determined? For example, how do the Mountain Clans control that island in the middle of the White River even though their nearest settlement is nowhere near that? What's exactly stopping us from settling down there as it is now, aside from what I assume would be the Mountain Clan's response of raiding the location? How exactly would we even successfully raid the Mountain Clans anyway considering its assumed they are inland with their only noted settlement being far to the south of us?
Also, when I look at the map again, I see that almost all of our settlement sites are tied to bodies of water, while other settlements for other Tribes like the Tribe of the West have inland settlements not connected as such. What is the meaning of this?
Also, not sure if this has been answered yet, but how exactly again would trading with the South, and who is the South exactly, help us interfere with the hegemony of the Peace Builders? @Redium
Anyway, here is my vote:
(Yes I'm aware I've selected three actions)
[X] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
[X] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[X] [Pearl] Encourage the People's traders to find something else they can trade for.
[X] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[X] [Action] Gather information to interfere with the Peace Builders growing hegemony of the southern lands (Trade: The South)
[X] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on May 13, 2018 at 12:41 PM, finished with 78 posts and 29 votes.
[X] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
3. Shouldn't there be people to the South that have more experience with agriculture and have filled their lands to carrying capacity? Shouldn't they be migrating North into our neighbors?
Also can you give us examples of the kind of problems going over max would create? Since we haven't done it before we don't really know what the cons would do in case we do pick it.
We know this from PoC 1, overmax values are values which demand a level of investment which your current level of civilization lacks infrastructure or technology for.
This results in a crisis situation where you're bleeding resources and/or stability to maintain an unrealistic level of commitment, but which also biases innovation rolls to generate a solution to it.
After a while either you brute force a solution, or your society casts off the trait either partly or completely.
IRL you can see this in a few places:
-Ancient Greece developed gymnasiums and academies as semi-public means of group training and education in order to meet their extreme elitism ideals
-The Middle East developed Algebra early, because of Fairness and Equality concepts bound up in early Islam, which led to developing algebra to figure out the fractional taxation they ultimately used to make sure things were done properly.
-The Chinese developed a formal Census(containing the 100 recognized surnames in modern times) early despite the humongous logistical difficulties due to the concepts that formed Confucianism.
Since this is a game it's a lot tidier than what happened historically of course.
We know this from PoC 1, overmax values are values which demand a level of investment which your current level of civilization lacks infrastructure or technology for.
This results in a crisis situation where you're bleeding resources and/or stability to maintain an unrealistic level of commitment, but which also biases innovation rolls to generate a solution to it.
After a while either you brute force a solution, or your society casts off the trait either partly or completely.
IRL you can see this in a few places:
-Ancient Greece developed gymnasiums and academies as semi-public means of group training and education in order to meet their extreme elitism ideals
-The Middle East developed Algebra early, because of Fairness and Equality concepts bound up in early Islam, which led to developing algebra to figure out the fractional taxation they ultimately used to make sure things were done properly.
-The Chinese developed a formal Census(containing the 100 recognized surnames in modern times) early despite the humongous logistical difficulties due to the concepts that formed Confucianism.
Since this is a game it's a lot tidier than what happened historically of course.
How severe were the costs in PoC when it came to overmax values?
As I wouldn't exactly mind developing something like innovation rolls dedicated to elitism or even say Trial by Fire to fix the problem caused, as that gymnasium and academies example doesn't sound too bad. If the costs aren't too high I wouldn't exactly mind such a choice.
How severe were the costs in PoC when it came to overmax values?
As I wouldn't exactly mind developing something like innovation rolls dedicated to elitism or even say Trial by Fire to fix the problem caused, as that gymnasium and academies example doesn't sound too bad. If the costs aren't too high I wouldn't exactly mind such a choice.
Something like(all at once):
-Loss of 1 stat points per turn per piece of missing infrastructure/technology
-Social problems rising rapidly in background
-Secondary undesirable traits and beliefs promoted as coping mechanicsms
Basically? If you're deliberately stressing your society to drive innovation, make sure that:
-The innovation needed is achievable and practical
-You have no other impending crisis(primary types which worsen the problem are relative weaknesses in defenses, lack of communication or transportation infrastructure, impending regional/cultural stressor like the bronze or agricultural transitions)
-You have a surplus of most resources
It depends on how advanced the value is. Some values can be utterly monstrous without counterbalancing social welfare, justice or community concepts. Elitism is only a few steps away from Master and Slave.
Something like(all at once):
-Loss of 1 stat points per turn per piece of missing infrastructure/technology
-Social problems rising rapidly in background
-Secondary undesirable traits and beliefs promoted as coping mechanicsms
Basically? If you're deliberately stressing your society to drive innovation, make sure that:
-The innovation needed is achievable and practical
-You have no other impending crisis(primary types which worsen the problem are relative weaknesses in defenses, lack of communication or transportation infrastructure, impending regional/cultural stressor like the bronze or agricultural transitions)
-You have a surplus of most resources
It depends on how advanced the value is. Some values can be utterly monstrous without counterbalancing social welfare, justice or community concepts. Elitism is only a few steps away from Master and Slave.
Well now, with all of that known I don't think it's worth it to overmax right now then, considering we right now are at a divide of sorts in deciding whether to build tall or wide.
How would you even know though, if an innovation is capable of being achieved before you choose an overmax value in the first place? Because if you can't, it's almost like deliberately shooting yourself in the foot.
I don't really see the draw behind overmax with these cons as a result.
Well now, with all of that known I don't think it's worth it to overmax right now then, considering we right now are at a divide of sorts in deciding whether to build tall or wide.
How would you even know though, if an innovation is capable of being achieved before you choose an overmax value in the first place? Because if you can't, it's almost like deliberately shooting yourself in the foot.
I don't really see the draw behind overmax with these cons as a result.
Mostly logical reasoning. For instance, the next step in our Want To Be The Very Best would likely require SOME kind of group training, which is rare in the stone age because of how much time you need to spend producing food to stay fed. Its possible to force the matter, the holy orders are already doing something close to it informally...but getting there would cost you a whole bunch of damage to stability and food supplies while people figure out how.
Its more of a problem if you do like PoC and overmax a particular value, meet that requirement via bloodymindedness, uncap the value again and overmax it again. Thrice.
At this stage it'd be more...inconvenient to have at a bad time
Mostly logical reasoning. For instance, the next step in our Want To Be The Very Best would likely require SOME kind of group training, which is rare in the stone age because of how much time you need to spend producing food to stay fed. Its possible to force the matter, the holy orders are already doing something close to it informally...but getting there would cost you a whole bunch of damage to stability and food supplies while people figure out how.
Its more of a problem if you do like PoC and overmax a particular value, meet that requirement via bloodymindedness, uncap the value again and overmax it again. Thrice.
At this stage it'd be more...inconvenient to have at a bad time
If that is the case, how come we aren't trying to overmax a value right now if that is known? I mean if it's not that big of a problem, the benefits might outweigh the costs at this point.
Then again, maybe the mechanics might work differently here. Considering we're at the top right now, I don't think it would be worth it at the moment, as others probably do, to risk going for overmax traits when it could cost us that standing. Especially as we have some very important decisions to make soon about settlements and such. Getting damaged right now might now be worth it in that regard.
If that is the case, how come we aren't trying to overmax a value right now if that is known? I mean if it's not that big of a problem, the benefits might outweigh the costs at this point.
Then again, maybe the mechanics might work differently here. Considering we're at the top right now, I don't think it would be worth it at the moment, as others probably do, to risk going for overmax traits when it could cost us that standing. Especially as we have some very important decisions to make soon about settlements and such. Getting damaged right now might now be worth it in that regard.
It'd be inconvenient and we're already busy with:
-The impending crisis of running out of things to hunt before we figure out good agriculture
-The impending Clay Grab crisis
-Building a Hill in every settlement before we expand and make it vastly more difficult to build tall.
--You make infrastructure standard by building one in every settlement
But mostly, we really could use Stone Skinned being tougher. It's very good for SV's preferred playstyle.
@Redium how subjective is the leaderboard? Is everything, including the prestige counter an approximation of how the People think things are, is it a bird's eye view to help out the players only limited due to you not wanting to spoil us, or is it something in between?
To point at specifics, South Lake having Bloody and Black magic, is that propaganda or would even a South Laker that isn't a shaman or magus agree that his tribe is blessed with blood magic and gifts from the dark spirits if asked by a friend?
Or if we were to go the egocentric route that says that we are spiritually the greatest or that everything revolves around us, would there be a risk of getting to see inflated prestige stats on the leaderboard that wouldn't agree with what is written on a hypothetical South Lake or Peace Builder leaderboard?
Also, what do we know about the magics of the Tribe of the West or the Northland? We seem to know enough to get two words each, but what do those words actually mean according to our expert shamans?
How likely is it that a shaman could become a Big Man, given our Values?
What do you understand as being SV's preferred playstyle? PoC seems relatively different from PoC and there haven't been many civ games like that that I know of. Do all the various CK2 and other nation builder and sci-fi colony games on here (which I haven't followed) give some additional insight on typical voting patterns?
It'd be inconvenient and we're already busy with:
-The impending crisis of running out of things to hunt before we figure out good agriculture
-The impending Clay Grab crisis
-Building a Hill in every settlement before we expand and make it vastly more difficult to build tall.
--You make infrastructure standard by building one in every settlement
But mostly, we really could use Stone Skinned being tougher. It's very good for SV's preferred playstyle.
I think for our next turn we really need to prioritize finishing the Hunting Megaproject. We've already got 2/5 done, so we should hopefully be able to finish this in two generations at least. Besides if we take Quinoa right now as it looks like we might, then we should be able to start up agricultural development soon.
Until we learn more about how exactly we are supposed grab the Bay area and dominate it, I think we should really focus on expanding right now and going wide in order to secure the Flood Plains, as we all know how powerful river valley civilizations can get when they control the flood plains. We have brick walls. If we continue to influence Arrow Lake, we could easily control both sides of the Flood Plains, and with our walls and construction values, make ourselves unassailable for a good while. I'd rather we do that rather than deal with someone else getting dominance and then us having to fight them out for it as that would be a waste and put us in danger, especially if it's the Peace Builders.
I do think though that we may have to deal with a resurgent South Lake though, as they look like they are about to crush the Bond Breakers. Here's hoping that the Tribe of the West can defeat them.
I think we might have to wait a bit to build a hill in every settlement, because as we are right now I think our settlements are defensible enough with our brick walls, while comparatively it looks like it might be harder to root out any prospective enemies who settle in areas we might find advantageous, even with our holy orders and powerful martial.
While I would like to build more infrastructure, I would rather we expand enough to maintain dominance, and then build more infrastructure so that we can stave off other potentially hostile civilizations gaining hegemony and attacking us, or simply making it harder for us to oust them in a timely manner as we know how long that can take, such as with the Hundred Bands.
It'd be inconvenient and we're already busy with:
-The impending crisis of running out of things to hunt before we figure out good agriculture
-The impending Clay Grab crisis
-Building a Hill in every settlement before we expand and make it vastly more difficult to build tall.
--You make infrastructure standard by building one in every settlement
But mostly, we really could use Stone Skinned being tougher. It's very good for SV's preferred playstyle.
Honestly, If that's how we make things standard for settlements, then is it worth it to standardize hills? That's 4 actions minimum in exchange for 2 whenever we settle, as opposed to 3 actions to lock in an action forever.
I was refrencing a record of a spice or plant commonly native to the Americas found in Egypt, or a artifact from one of the dead Americas civilizations found in Asia or Africa (might have been a chinese artifact in the Americas, or an artifact from a civ that traded everywhere landing in the americas). Bits and pieces that make no sense, like elephant statues in the americas, without a trade connection by sea from at least the coast of Egypt to the coast of one of the Americas.
I know there's been some suggestions of either Chinese or Japanese sailors being blown off course by a hurricane and then ending up in the Americas, but those were freak accidents. They're likely the source of the artifacts and there's been some ambiguous genetic evidence of that occurring as well.
As for elephant statues, are we sure they're elephant statues or statues that look like elephants. They could be representing some hypothetical mythical animal and we interpret that as being an elephant. The Chinese had the concept of a 'unicorn' like animal that ended up looking exactly like a giraffe. One of their great exploration expeditions was noted to come back with these miraculous creatures only to be very disappointed by the lackluster reaction from the Chinese court.
Additionally, we know that mastodon and other elephant-like animals existed in North America, but went extinct. It's possible that fossilized remains of these creatures could have been found and then served as inspiration for the subsequent sculptures.
Probably the traces of nicotine and cocaine (both found only at American plants at the time) found in some Egyptian mummies. Even in Tutankhamen's tomb the archeologists found dead tobacco beetles.
Hmm... I didn't know that was a thing. The simplest answer is cross-contamination. Whoever was examining the mummies accidentally exposed them to tobacco. I know that tobacco was used as an insecticide in the 19th century. It's quite likely that some well-intentioned person found the mummy and used tobacco on it in an attempt to preserve it after it was recovered by British archaeologists. Cocaine was probably used for a similar reason.
It's the same thing with why people think Tutankhamen might have been murdered. There's a thin, damaged section near the back of his skull where it looks like he was struck by a hammer or club. What actually happened was that his head was mounted on a spike to support it in a museum long after his body had been recovered.
Accidentally contamination and damage to artifacts happens all the time.
Finally, a question for @Redium (or anyone else who's figured it out). Is locking in buildings done the normal way, or is it done by having them in every settlement?
The Pearl Divers look really huge on the map, with distances maybe even bigger than ours. @Redium do we have any idea how they manage their social cohesion problems that you mentioned about us?
They're much more decentralized. They have a Tribal Confederation model of government. Each settlement is basically independent, but they operate together against outsiders. They also have the benefits of the best boat technology on the map and open waterways to help keep connectivity.
More or less. He had blue-eyes and short hair. The People are actually one of the few factions to regularly cut their hair; they use obsidian knives for it which is an expense that would make everyone else weep.
Something like: Caste System, Karma, Purity, Adoration of Violence, Divine Law, and Be Fruitful and Multiply.
Caste System creates slave-like classes in society where your birth determines everything that you can do. Karma ensures that if your born in disadvantage then that means you deserve it because you were bad in a past life (while also trimming some of the excesses of the upper classes). This ties into purity which excludes outsiders and creates internal outcasts that are on the bottom of society. Adoration of Violence makes the society warlike as a whole and encourages problem solving. Divine Law ritualized violence, preventing it from getting out of control, but also locking in violence and the caste system because the gods say so. Be Fruitful and Multiply turns women into baby factories, oppresses people who can't pass as heterosexual, and greatly increased competition and inequality.
3. Shouldn't there be people to the South that have more experience with agriculture and have filled their lands to carrying capacity? Shouldn't they be migrating North into our neighbors?
They've been distracted by various existential wars for the last century or so. That plus the bad weather has kept the population down. The Hundred Bands held the south back previously, only to be replaced by the Island Makers when they were destroyed. They're a very Tall civilization so their expansion is slow and prevents people from the south from coming north. South Lake was also viciously oppressing and enslaving most of the other southern tribes in the past so they kept the population under control. They couldn't expand because expanding too wide with slaves is a recipe for uprising.
The Mountain Clans are the only ones that really have a route to the north and they're in the process of swelling up like a soap bubble. The second they pop, they're going to be everywhere.
Oh yeah. @Redium Will the actions here count as having been done 'This Turn' and thus have one charge out of the three needed to lock the action in permanently?
You could produce limestone walls whenever you wanted, but they're not going to be mechanically different from brick. It's only when you get the tools to use granite that it will change things.
Huh, some of the sites I read did recommend hypothyroidism but as this sounded like a disease I wasn't expecting it to have been true. What was the cause of this infection in the first place?
Could you lie every minute of your life? Could you convince the people around you that you have a mental or physical disability at all times? Could you do all of that knowing that while it keeps you feed and gets you respect, it cuts you off from your fellows? Most people are that good at lying.
Do other Tribes have an oral history explaining why we could potentially act this way, such as our wars against the Hundred Bands and later South Lake?
Yes, some idiot poked the spirit and it turned into a demon. As far as the south knows, you showed up out of nowhere alongside the Island Makers and went through South Lake's most elite warriors like a hot knife through butter. And then you disappeared while disease scourged them.
That's good to know. I'm guessing then that we don't have many fields at all even though we are next to a river then? Is the great river even suitable for agriculture?
The Great River is suitable for agriculture. Not as much as the flatland around the Valge (White) River, but it could be done. The area's more suited to growing wild rice and quinoa than corn or gourds, however.
Is that why they seem to be building tall rather than wide right now? Because as far as I remember the Island Makers seem to have coveted the land once held by the Hundred Bands and then South Lake, yet now that they have it, it doesn't seem like they are expanding, at least no overtly.
That's good to know, but what I was getting at was would the field systems we develop for our agricultural practices differ greatly when it comes to planting corn and quinoa? Such as the shape of the fields, amount of irrigation and so forth?
That makes sense, though when it comes to arrow slits, how far down the line would that theoretically be? I'm also not even sure if our bows would even function well enough to make arrow slits useful. Also, if we wanted to say direct more development towards say developing a better bow, how exactly would we get the innovation to do so? As I think we have enough of the tech to possibly create more complex bows right now.
Out of curiosity, which of the Peace Builders traits that they currently have are ones they inherited from the Mound Builders? As right now it seems that the Peace Builders reflect more of their heritage as the Peace Seekers than the Mound Builders. Curiously, what would've happened had the Peace Seekers not subverted the Mound Builders? Were our fears of potential conflict with them justified at the time? What do the Peace Builders think of us now? The last update hinted at them liking us, likely due to our dominant pilgrimage trade.
The Peace Builders picked up Do it or Die and their Excellence trait from the Mound Builders.
If you had made contact with the Peace Seekers after they were conquered by the Mound Builders, you would've been given the option to support their rebellion against the Mound Builders and then eventually annex them into the People.
The Peace Builders generally like you. You're violent, but you're not nearly as aggressive as the people that they normally deal with.
When it comes to South Lake and the Bond Breakers, from what we can see from the map you posted, it looks like South Lake is undergoing a resurgence as they have taken territory that was previously that of the Bond Breakers. How have the South Lake's value traits changed as a result of their...crippling due to multiple factions? I'm guessing that vengeful mention was pretty apt. Also, is it only the Bond Breakers that South Lake is fighting? What of the Tribe of the West? Did our pull out of the war embolden others to pull out as well?
South Lake took on a Blood Debt trait (think: Sin of the Father, Sin of the Son) and a Properly Paranoid trait (since everyone is out to get them).
The Tribe of the West has more or less pulled back from the war. They are recovering this turn and last and have growing concerns to the west. The Bond Breakers are actually being dog-piled by South Lake and the Mountain Clans. No one else is fighting South Lake.
Considering how in the last update they failed in their attempts to raid Arrow Lake and the Island Makers, have those defeats changed their attitudes? As it doesn't look like they have any easy marks to target anymore when it comes to raiding for sustenance, so what will they do now that they don't have targeted neighbors? It seems that they also have a settlement on the map, so is that evidence of change? Also, considering their mention in the leaderboards, are the Mountain Tribes now one distinct group rather than a collection of peoples like before?
Not really. The Mountain Clans did really, really well against the Bond Breakers. All they've learned was that they didn't quite raid the Island Makers and Arrow Lake right. Their only settlement was actually one they captured from the Bond Breakers.
The Mountain Clans are like a soap bubble. They're swelling like crazy but will eventually pop and go everywhere.
How close exactly are the Peace Builders to dominating the Southern Lands? We know that they have recently been succeeding in their wars down south and have integrated two tribes, but have the other tribes recognized the danger of the Peace Builders to them yet or are their previous animosities preventing them from countering them? Also, short of war, is their anything we can do to cut short their ascendancy?
There are 7 tribes (including the Peace Builders) apparently fighting over the southern lands below Rahu Bay. The Peace Builders have subdued 2 of those tribes; only 4 enemies are left.
The other tribes have not recognized the Peace Builder's danger. They expect them to lose their gains fairly soon, like all successful tribes have done before.
There is something you can do to screw with the Peace Builders short of war, but you lack the information to figure out what it is.
When it comes to the flood plains around the Fingers, which direction of river are you referring too? Are you speaking of the Great River which leads from Crystal Lake to the Fingers, the westward river? Or are you speaking about the Valge River, leading southwards towards the Island Makers? Also is the White River the same as the Valge River?
The flood plains are the trees to the east and west of the Valge (White) River between the Fingers and Island Makers. The Great River is also suitable for agriculture, but not as much as the Valge River.
Will these dice rolls for getting tin be a one time roll or will it be multiple rolls to find a site? As far as I remember in the Bronze Age, the only known sites of tin were in Anatolia in the Tarsus Region, some small sites in Italy, and then some in England in the areas of modern day Brittany and Cornwall, alongside Bavaria, and Gallicia. That's not a lot of sights considering how far away some of them were from the Mediterranean.
To go Tall, you need to focus on locking in Temples, Hills and other infrastructure as soon as you can. If you don't lock it in, eventually you'll get to a point where you will never have enough actions to build all of the necessary infrastructure. You would always be playing catch up.
As soon as your infrastructure levels up, it becomes more and more difficult to update to that standard the larger your civilization is.
Also, when it comes to locking in constructions such as Hills and Temples, how exactly would we do that? Right now it looks like creating Hills or Temples are much more intensive actions than say creating a new settlement. Considering we've just built Temples and our current massive technological lead, what exactly would be the downsides for us if we expanded rather than continued developing our main centers of civilization? Because right now, it seems like going wide might be better as you've noted due to the fact that so much territory is still up for grabs, especially key agricultural areas like the flood plains you mentioned. What exactly would going tall do to help us, when you've explicitly mentioned that those that control certain areas, would be able to snap us over their knees due to their expansion? The only likely way we could stop that expansion or pre-empt it would be to expand ourselves through going wide, so I'm just curious as to the benefits of going tall.
You lock in infrastructure buildings by making sure all settlements have them for 3 turns.
There's downsides to both going wide and tall. You have enough with the Great River to build a successful civilization. You would just need to force infrastructure development and hope you get bronze first so you can conquer the shit out of everything because of your superior technology and social organization. Alternatively, by going wide, you're trying to choke out all other civilizations, leaning on your current technological edge until the others finally carch up.
How exactly would we dominate Rahu Bay? I mean we currently have a settlement on it in the form of Hill Guard with a potential future settlement near the North Bay. Right now it looks like our access to the South of the Bay appears to be blocked by the Peace Builders, and I don't think many of us are keen on starting a war with them due to a number of their traits, like Sacred War. So how could we feasibly contest or even dominate Rahu Bay is what I'm asking? Also, what exactly about controlling Rahu Bay gives the civilization who does so, so much power? @Redium
You would dominate Rahu Bay by founding settlements at North Bay, where the River Tribe currently is, on the massive peninsula west of Hill Guard, and by forcing the Peace Builders off of their gains on the bay's shores. Of the advantages you know, having the bay gives you extensive agricultural land with numerous rivers for relatively easy irrigation. It also can serve as a transport hub, making it extremely easy to keep your civilization together. When you want to become a naval power, the size of the bay will give a protected and fantastic location to develop docks and naval infrastructure.
Just for clarification. Are the White River's flood plains, the one near the Fingers, the southern fork of it that leads into Veri Lake, or is it the eastern fork that leads to the Pearl Builders? I assume that the only one to dominate either of those are to build settlements there for farming purposes to fuel population growth right?
The White River's flood pains are the ones near the Fingers. Yes, dominating them would lead to explosive population growth due to the equalit of the soil.
Hmmm...assuming we continue onto the next age intact, will buildings like this just disappear or can we upgrade them over time? Especially as the Temple of Stars seems like a wonder in some ways.
How exactly does cultural stuff in the trading stuff work? How do you trade culture I mean, and what exactly does it do for us when it's leading or dominant like we are now? Because it seems different from just trading resources, as its less tangible.
Cultural trade goods are more having a really impressive culture that causes pilgrims, travelers, and merchants to show up. These people then spend their money on food, accommodations and trinkets while they're taking in the sights.
When you mean new axis, does that mean instead of just improving upon the single aspect the value was originally meant for, such as with stone skinned being exclusively about defenses, would that new axis be like adding something else the value now accounts for in a sense, such as potentially all earthwork in general or spiritual earthwork?
Art is a combination of cultural, religious and technical crafts. It covers not only sacred icons, but useful tools and weapons. It's essentially how much useful or pretty stuff the People can produce.
Take more actions in that specific category. If you want to boost Econ, farm or herd. If you want to boost Diplo, trade more. The stat numbers are more just an abstraction of your past action history so that I know roughly what you're good at.
When it comes to diplomacy, it seems odd to me that we have a -1 considering how many trading partners we seem to have. So how is that score determined?
Your Diplo is recovering from past decisions. Abandoning the Veri Lake tribes in the middle of their war against South Lake dinged your Diplo (quite a bit actually). Killing the Northland's High Shaman dinged Diplo. Abandoning the Peace Seekers to the Mound Builders dinged diplo.
Magic to me seems to be referring to our "magic" or technologies that we've developed, which seems rather straightforward to gain. However, I'm guessing due to convenient math that our magic is what is bolstering our negative stats. Is that the only stat that can do that?
So considering we haven't even given the Pearl Divers help with their saltern, is even the mere possibility of using our magic to help others a boon for diplomacy?
How influential are the events determined by your dice? Do you simply throw dice in a narrow focus for certain regions or civilizations, or are predetermined events or catastrophes also determined by the dice as well, such as volcanic eruptions and such which can influence civilizations?
Just out of curiosity, when you mean mess with history, how far are you going to go to mess with it? You always mention the giant sloth cavalry of South America, how fantastical could these changes be?
Similar to our thinking before changes in climates caused the south to starve, we used to think we could do this with South Lake with obsidian. How exactly would it change if we refused access to salt, but in this case are simply acting as the middle man, and how exactly would we promote the trade of salt to get this result?
Take up the Pearl Diver's option to build a saltern. Everyone wants salt and is going to take as much as you can possibly give them. It's simply to useful as a food preservative to do otherwise.
Do the drawings on the ivory door change or boost the values they represent, or is it more directing the ways our value will be perceived in the future as this door is somewhat like a permanent record of sorts?
Considering we have so many pearls, as it's been implied, could we conceivably use the pearls we have to influence the inner workings of the Pearl Divers? Such as using it in a transaction to speak or something?
Why do you think the Pearl Divers are inviting your people into their settlements to help work with them and build their technologies? It's already having an effect. You just need to keep building on it.
Anyways, is settling River Bend only advantageous because it allows us another route to expand southwards using the waterways? Also, what is so important about locking down the Southern Border, and how exactly does that allow us to dominate the region compared to, as you suggested taking the settlement site on the island in the White River which would give us nominal control of the flood plains? Are the flood plains the lighter green tiles on the map?
Yes. The flood plains are all the dark green forested tiles. I know I'm using the word wrong, but the non-hilly forested area used to be flooded by the White River in that area of the world.
Another question, @Redium ? But how exactly is control determined? For example, how do the Mountain Clans control that island in the middle of the White River even though their nearest settlement is nowhere near that? What's exactly stopping us from settling down there as it is now, aside from what I assume would be the Mountain Clan's response of raiding the location? How exactly would we even successfully raid the Mountain Clans anyway considering its assumed they are inland with their only noted settlement being far to the south of us?
Control is determined by whose settlements are nearest and who has the biggest stick.
The Mountain Clans are nomadic. They have small bands scattered everywhere throughout their territory. It shows the areas where they can nominally be found.
Also, when I look at the map again, I see that almost all of our settlement sites are tied to bodies of water, while other settlements for other Tribes like the Tribe of the West have inland settlements not connected as such. What is the meaning of this?
Not much. You're preferentially building near water because it makes travel easier. Once you start building more farms you'll expand inland as well. You've just focused on the water ways a lot.
Also, not sure if this has been answered yet, but how exactly again would trading with the South, and who is the South exactly, help us interfere with the hegemony of the Peace Builders? @Redium
@Redium how subjective is the leaderboard? Is everything, including the prestige counter an approximation of how the People think things are, is it a bird's eye view to help out the players only limited due to you not wanting to spoil us, or is it something in between?
To point at specifics, South Lake having Bloody and Black magic, is that propaganda or would even a South Laker that isn't a shaman or magus agree that his tribe is blessed with blood magic and gifts from the dark spirits if asked by a friend?
Or if we were to go the egocentric route that says that we are spiritually the greatest or that everything revolves around us, would there be a risk of getting to see inflated prestige stats on the leaderboard that wouldn't agree with what is written on a hypothetical South Lake or Peace Builder leaderboard?
The leader board is from the People's perspective.
South Lake would acknowledge that their magic is rooted in blood, but they would fervently deny that it was in any way 'dark' or 'evil'. Even the blood curses they use would not be evil, but instead using the spirits to smite those deserving.
Also, what do we know about the magics of the Tribe of the West or the Northland? We seem to know enough to get two words each, but what do those words actually mean according to our expert shamans?
Depends how you define shaman. If you include Ember-Eyes, then it's already happened; both Aeva and Kaspar were technically shaman. If you're talking about an unaffiliated shaman, then less likely than average. If they were a Magic or Mystic Hero then they would become Big Man, but the 'average' Big Man does not tend to be a shaman.
[X][Dedication] Scenes of a Surreal, Otherworldly Quality
[X][Value] The spirits have put the People at the center of the world, all orbiting around them. (Gain Spiritual Value)
[X][Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.
[X][Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
[X][Action] Gather information to interfere with the Peace Builders growing hegemony of the southern lands (Trade: The South)
Hmm... I didn't know that was a thing. The simplest answer is cross-contamination. Whoever was examining the mummies accidentally exposed them to tobacco. I know that tobacco was used as an insecticide in the 19th century. It's quite likely that some well-intentioned person found the mummy and used tobacco on it in an attempt to preserve it after it was recovered by British archaeologists. Cocaine was probably used for a similar reason.
It was often used before, but recent development make this version seem less and less credible. In 1976, French scientists found traces of tobacco in the belly of the mummy of Ramses II. You cannot (even if you try) drop tobacco inside a sewn mummy without it being easily noticeable.
In 1992, Russian scientists examined 8 Egyptians who lived from 11th to 4th centuries BC. All of them had traces of either nicotine, cocaine or hashih. Only the last plant grows naturally in the Old World.
I think the most likely cause of Old-New world BC contacts were the Phoenicians and, later, Carthaginians. Gannon the Seafarer travelled as far as Cameroon and they had some settlement attempts on the Canary islands. Their ships had a chance to survive a cross-Atlantic trip to Cuba and back.
I know there's been some suggestions of either Chinese or Japanese sailors being blown off course by a hurricane and then ending up in the Americas, but those were freak accidents. They're likely the source of the artifacts and there's been some ambiguous genetic evidence of that occurring as well.
As for elephant statues, are we sure they're elephant statues or statues that look like elephants. They could be representing some hypothetical mythical animal and we interpret that as being an elephant. The Chinese had the concept of a 'unicorn' like animal that ended up looking exactly like a giraffe. One of their great exploration expeditions was noted to come back with these miraculous creatures only to be very disappointed by the lackluster reaction from the Chinese court.
Additionally, we know that mastodon and other elephant-like animals existed in North America, but went extinct. It's possible that fossilized remains of these creatures could have been found and then served as inspiration for the subsequent sculptures.
Hmm... I didn't know that was a thing. The simplest answer is cross-contamination. Whoever was examining the mummies accidentally exposed them to tobacco. I know that tobacco was used as an insecticide in the 19th century. It's quite likely that some well-intentioned person found the mummy and used tobacco on it in an attempt to preserve it after it was recovered by British archaeologists. Cocaine was probably used for a similar reason.
It's the same thing with why people think Tutankhamen might have been murdered. There's a thin, damaged section near the back of his skull where it looks like he was struck by a hammer or club. What actually happened was that his head was mounted on a spike to support it in a museum long after his body had been recovered.
Accidentally contamination and damage to artifacts happens all the time.
Having it in every settlement for at least 3 consecutive turns.
They're much more decentralized. They have a Tribal Confederation model of government. Each settlement is basically independent, but they operate together against outsiders. They also have the benefits of the best boat technology on the map and open waterways to help keep connectivity.
Mostly locally. They only meet up collective once a year during the fall. It's a huge political gathering and raucous party.
More or less. He had blue-eyes and short hair. The People are actually one of the few factions to regularly cut their hair; they use obsidian knives for it which is an expense that would make everyone else weep.
Something like: Caste System, Karma, Purity, Adoration of Violence, Divine Law, and Be Fruitful and Multiply.
Caste System creates slave-like classes in society where your birth determines everything that you can do. Karma ensures that if your born in disadvantage then that means you deserve it because you were bad in a past life (while also trimming some of the excesses of the upper classes). This ties into purity which excludes outsiders and creates internal outcasts that are on the bottom of society. Adoration of Violence makes the society warlike as a whole and encourages problem solving. Divine Law ritualized violence, preventing it from getting out of control, but also locking in violence and the caste system because the gods say so. Be Fruitful and Multiply turns women into baby factories, oppresses people who can't pass as heterosexual, and greatly increased competition and inequality.
They've been distracted by various existential wars for the last century or so. That plus the bad weather has kept the population down. The Hundred Bands held the south back previously, only to be replaced by the Island Makers when they were destroyed. They're a very Tall civilization so their expansion is slow and prevents people from the south from coming north. South Lake was also viciously oppressing and enslaving most of the other southern tribes in the past so they kept the population under control. They couldn't expand because expanding too wide with slaves is a recipe for uprising.
The Mountain Clans are the only ones that really have a route to the north and they're in the process of swelling up like a soap bubble. The second they pop, they're going to be everywhere.
Yes.
You could produce limestone walls whenever you wanted, but they're not going to be mechanically different from brick. It's only when you get the tools to use granite that it will change things.
Yes, but they were also doing well enough in their wars that they were planning to sue for peace in order to digest their gains.
Random mutation in a viral disease. It wasn't very severe, but it was your first novel disease.
Could you lie every minute of your life? Could you convince the people around you that you have a mental or physical disability at all times? Could you do all of that knowing that while it keeps you feed and gets you respect, it cuts you off from your fellows? Most people are that good at lying.
It will probably decay a bit after her death unless you start doing other major projects (i.e. Temples, Hills or building megaprojects).
Yes, some idiot poked the spirit and it turned into a demon. As far as the south knows, you showed up out of nowhere alongside the Island Makers and went through South Lake's most elite warriors like a hot knife through butter. And then you disappeared while disease scourged them.
The Great River is suitable for agriculture. Not as much as the flatland around the Valge (White) River, but it could be done. The area's more suited to growing wild rice and quinoa than corn or gourds, however.
Everyone trade for it because everyone likes the shinnies. You''re the only ones that have a real, productive use for it.
They're building tall right now. They're laying down trails and building canals/irrigation systems wherever they can.
Yes, Arrow Lake had other trade partners in the south (including the Bond Breakers) but they've been cut off by the Mountain Clans.
I believe quinoa and corn have different growing requirements. To be honest, it's below the abstraction level of the quest so I don't think about it.
Arrow Slits is late-Classical technology. It was until the 200s BC that they started being used.
The Peace Builders picked up Do it or Die and their Excellence trait from the Mound Builders.
If you had made contact with the Peace Seekers after they were conquered by the Mound Builders, you would've been given the option to support their rebellion against the Mound Builders and then eventually annex them into the People.
The Peace Builders generally like you. You're violent, but you're not nearly as aggressive as the people that they normally deal with.
South Lake took on a Blood Debt trait (think: Sin of the Father, Sin of the Son) and a Properly Paranoid trait (since everyone is out to get them).
The Tribe of the West has more or less pulled back from the war. They are recovering this turn and last and have growing concerns to the west. The Bond Breakers are actually being dog-piled by South Lake and the Mountain Clans. No one else is fighting South Lake.
Not really. The Mountain Clans did really, really well against the Bond Breakers. All they've learned was that they didn't quite raid the Island Makers and Arrow Lake right. Their only settlement was actually one they captured from the Bond Breakers.
The Mountain Clans are like a soap bubble. They're swelling like crazy but will eventually pop and go everywhere.
There are 7 tribes (including the Peace Builders) apparently fighting over the southern lands below Rahu Bay. The Peace Builders have subdued 2 of those tribes; only 4 enemies are left.
The other tribes have not recognized the Peace Builder's danger. They expect them to lose their gains fairly soon, like all successful tribes have done before.
There is something you can do to screw with the Peace Builders short of war, but you lack the information to figure out what it is.
The flood plains are the trees to the east and west of the Valge (White) River between the Fingers and Island Makers. The Great River is also suitable for agriculture, but not as much as the Valge River.
The legacy is about having a robust and diverse tradition of Holy Orders. The numbers track how significant that is.
You can roll for Tin once for every settlement you have.
To go Tall, you need to focus on locking in Temples, Hills and other infrastructure as soon as you can. If you don't lock it in, eventually you'll get to a point where you will never have enough actions to build all of the necessary infrastructure. You would always be playing catch up.
As soon as your infrastructure levels up, it becomes more and more difficult to update to that standard the larger your civilization is.
You lock in infrastructure buildings by making sure all settlements have them for 3 turns.
There's downsides to both going wide and tall. You have enough with the Great River to build a successful civilization. You would just need to force infrastructure development and hope you get bronze first so you can conquer the shit out of everything because of your superior technology and social organization. Alternatively, by going wide, you're trying to choke out all other civilizations, leaning on your current technological edge until the others finally carch up.
You would dominate Rahu Bay by founding settlements at North Bay, where the River Tribe currently is, on the massive peninsula west of Hill Guard, and by forcing the Peace Builders off of their gains on the bay's shores. Of the advantages you know, having the bay gives you extensive agricultural land with numerous rivers for relatively easy irrigation. It also can serve as a transport hub, making it extremely easy to keep your civilization together. When you want to become a naval power, the size of the bay will give a protected and fantastic location to develop docks and naval infrastructure.
The White River's flood pains are the ones near the Fingers. Yes, dominating them would lead to explosive population growth due to the equalit of the soil.
You can upgrade over time.
Cultural trade goods are more having a really impressive culture that causes pilgrims, travelers, and merchants to show up. These people then spend their money on food, accommodations and trinkets while they're taking in the sights.
Yes.
Yes.
Depends, but almost certainly multiple tools. @veekie explained this pretty well. The idea is similar to PoC.
Art is a combination of cultural, religious and technical crafts. It covers not only sacred icons, but useful tools and weapons. It's essentially how much useful or pretty stuff the People can produce.
Take more actions in that specific category. If you want to boost Econ, farm or herd. If you want to boost Diplo, trade more. The stat numbers are more just an abstraction of your past action history so that I know roughly what you're good at.
Your Diplo is recovering from past decisions. Abandoning the Veri Lake tribes in the middle of their war against South Lake dinged your Diplo (quite a bit actually). Killing the Northland's High Shaman dinged Diplo. Abandoning the Peace Seekers to the Mound Builders dinged diplo.
Stats are prioritized based on how high they are on the list. You'll take stat points from everything below which ever stat goes below 0.
0 Does nothing. Negative impacts background rolls and can cause social problems.
Yes.
I try and ere on the side of random unless it gives a nonsensical result.
Take up the Pearl Diver's option to build a saltern. Everyone wants salt and is going to take as much as you can possibly give them. It's simply to useful as a food preservative to do otherwise.
It affects how your religion and your values will develop in the future. It guides them.
Why do you think the Pearl Divers are inviting your people into their settlements to help work with them and build their technologies? It's already having an effect. You just need to keep building on it.
River Fork would not help as much as River Bend.
Yes. The flood plains are all the dark green forested tiles. I know I'm using the word wrong, but the non-hilly forested area used to be flooded by the White River in that area of the world.
Control is determined by whose settlements are nearest and who has the biggest stick.
The Mountain Clans are nomadic. They have small bands scattered everywhere throughout their territory. It shows the areas where they can nominally be found.
Not much. You're preferentially building near water because it makes travel easier. Once you start building more farms you'll expand inland as well. You've just focused on the water ways a lot.
The trade mission to 'the south' is to find out more about them. You know very little right now.
The leader board is from the People's perspective.
South Lake would acknowledge that their magic is rooted in blood, but they would fervently deny that it was in any way 'dark' or 'evil'. Even the blood curses they use would not be evil, but instead using the spirits to smite those deserving.
The Tribe of the West's magic is related to living things; plants, medicine, concoctions, and various drugs.
The Northlands' magic is derived from their close relationship with elk and other animals.
Depends how you define shaman. If you include Ember-Eyes, then it's already happened; both Aeva and Kaspar were technically shaman. If you're talking about an unaffiliated shaman, then less likely than average. If they were a Magic or Mystic Hero then they would become Big Man, but the 'average' Big Man does not tend to be a shaman.
India combined with the Aztecs. The Aztecs had a number of religious rituals that depended on human sacrifices. The day of the flayed God had warriors wander the cities begging alms, wearing the still wet flayed skin of their victims so as to be dressed like the God. The priests had a technique to flay the skin off a victim as a single piece, with only a single cut.
