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From Stone to the Stars

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Marlin said:
Why would we do that? We won't conquer, we are walking a diplo path. AND WE DON'T NEED TO DO THAT!!

edit: By being the greatest consumer of salt we are currently the only consumer of salt. No one pays what we pay.
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First, we conquered the fingers on turn 5. I don't see how conquest is off the table here.

Second, we're already enemies with the mountain tribes and tribes of the south. Hurting them is a diplomatic benefit, because all our allies hate them too.

Third, your WHOLE ARGUMENT for why we shouldn't get the saltern was a)we weren't spending enough actions on diplomacy for the diplomatic effects to be useful and b)that it would help other tribes more than us. Now that I present a way to hurt other tribes with it, you say that we can't do that, we're spending too much on diplomacy to hurt other tribes? This is best exemplified by these two posts,
Marlin said:
I believe the salt will be a boon for civs not us. And I'm interested in what our traders can find that isn't salt. I am tired of following PoC rails. Let's settle, Let's stop hunting, Let's stop fighting, Let's give salt to everyone. Oh, I KNOW! let's never try and conquer the world!
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Marlin said:
Why would we do that? We won't conquer, we are walking a diplo path. AND WE DON'T NEED TO DO THAT!!

edit: By being the greatest consumer of salt we are currently the only consumer of salt. No one pays what we pay.
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Where you switch from saying we should break the rails and try to conquer the world to saying we should never conquer anything with exactly one post in between.

Finaly, to address your edit,
Marlin said:
edit2: THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE NOMAD CIVS. They could be unmet settled civs.
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How does one attract a non-nomadic civ? They are, by definition, immobile.
 
[x] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
[x] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.
[x] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[x] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
 
[X] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[X] [Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.
[X] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[X] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)

We should expand agriculture and in the long term diplo-annex one of thr smaller factions.
 
racnor said:
What does this represent, shamans taking on government/spiritual roles?
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For Diplomacy, it signifies that you're using the sheer power of magic to intimidate or cajole the tribes around you. Essentially, you do things like give Arrow Lake walls or help the Pearl Divers with their saltern.

Mysticism basically represents intellectual capital and educated people. Magic to Mysticism means that you're using all of your practical, esoteric resources to boost the intellectual capabilities of the People.

Marlin said:
1.How are you going to handle not!Americas trade with ancient Africa, ancient egypt, and ancient china?
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What trade are you referring to? Before colonization there wasn't more than uncertain, disputed contact with the Old World.

Marlin said:
2.Are you generating cultures on the other side of the world, or will they be generated only if we move into the area?
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I have general plans for how each area of the world is going to develop over the course of several turns. I throw dice every so often to add some randomness to things so that they don't develop predictably. With all of that in mind, I'd back fill their traits and stats in once you end up in contact with them.

Marlin said:
3.Finally, how on the rails with real life history will you be? Like, a natural disaster wrecks Asia, Asia is trashed small pockets of humans still exist. Would Asia become china in less than 200 years if the disaster decimating the pop occured during the warring states time?
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To some extent, there's a 'path of least resistance' with some events. If Egypt has the Nile, then they're likely to become a super-power early on. That's simply what the Nile would do. On the other hand, I'm going to consciously mess with history so that it's unrecognizable. If everything is exactly like our world, that's too easy for the players.

Marlin said:
PoC felt like there were strict rails, no matter how much the players did the world is trapped on a predetermined road. Sorta similar to right now actally. The players said civs are doomed to leave nomad life, though I thought native americans were a mix of settled and nomadic cultures.
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Native Americans were a lot more settled than most thought. With the exception of the Plains and Arctic tribes, Native Americans were settled. They only became unsettled after Europeans came over and 90% of the population was wiped out by disease.

Humans simply have a tendency to 'fill up' all of the land that's available. The carrying capacity for nomads is low so they eventually need to settle to accommodate their populations. If you grow fields of crops, the amount of food you can get is simply more than if you look through the forests for nuts and berries. If nomads don't, they starve. The only other options are to cull their numbers by violence or infanticide and both of those options are very unpopular.

Technology is also limited to settled peoples to some extent. Steel making, for example, isn't possible for nomadic peoples. You can't sit still for months, working on a forge to make steel when the rest of the tribe needs to move to find new food. The tribe would deplete the local resources long before someone could manufacture a sword from raw iron. Technology in general has to be portable, easy to make, and durable for nomads so that greatly limits their options

Marlin said:
@Redium how come we haven't heard about tornadoes?
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You're not in the right area of the world. Tornadoes don't occur in Not!Canada. They're actually extremely rare throughout the world. They're on the news a lot because one of the few places they do regularly spawn is the American mid-west and American news and culture dominates the media.

The People don't really have any extreme weather events other than drought, forest fires, lightning storms, winter, and ice storms.

sam5447 said:
What does wanting more salt have to do with conquering?
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Trending trade goods cause Stability damage if you lose access to them. Salt is currently trending so if the People's neighbours get hooked on it, it would give you a weapon to hold over them. Denying access to salt at a critical moment would damage Stability and could push a Faction to collapse.
 
soon....soon we shall be known as the armored snapping turtle of peoples...

I'm debating whether or not we go big or tall, both have merits and both have problems, to wide and the people fracture, to tall and we don't have enough population to deal with massive empires coming to crush us.

so I suggest we grab the plains and conquer the bay...and then turn our attention to grabbing as many rives and creating canals as possible so we can be connected throughout our territories.
 
[X] [Dedication] Scenes of a Surreal, Otherworldly Quality

Buff religion and reinforce our eerie reputation

[X] [Value] The spirits have put the People at the center of the world, all orbiting around them. (Gain Spiritual Value)

Currently leaning towards going wide and this seems like it would contribute to that.

[X] [Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.

Draw the Pearl Divers into our orbit.

[X] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)

The North has been our friends for generations and we should make sure that relationship is not damaged.

[X] [Action] Gather information to interfere with the Peace Builders growing hegemony of the southern lands (Trade: The South)

Peace Builders are becoming more and more of a threat. We should check their expansion before it is too late.
 
@Redium, the hill is still a magical/mystical /cultural symbol as much as fortifications, correct.?

And am I close to the mark in assuming that the struggle value and surreal drawings will lead to more complex and inquisitive mysticism?


Lastly do debts/gifts that cannot be repaid mandate servitude or honour wars ? Or do the pearl divers hold different ethos than that ?
 
[x] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
[x] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Encourage the People's traders to find something else they can trade for.
[x] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[x] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
 
Timewinders said:
I thought that Norse contact was proven (albeit shortlived) with archeological evidence of Vinland.
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Yes, the Norse contact has been definitively proven. It just didn't lead to any type of long-lasting exchange or trade. I'm not really sure what @Marlin was referencing by New and Old World trade which was what that comment was about.

maximillian said:
@Redium, the hill is still a magical/mystical /cultural symbol as much as fortifications, correct.?

And am I close to the mark in assuming that the struggle value and surreal drawings will lead to more complex and inquisitive mysticism?


Lastly do debts/gifts that cannot be repaid mandate servitude or honour wars ? Or do the pearl divers hold different ethos than that ?
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The Hill is a cultural symbol. It signifies that the People can master the earth and turn it to their will. It isn't quite as much of a cultural symbol as Arrow Lake or the Island Makers would take it as, but it does confirm your values (primarily Stone-Skinned).

The drawings on the ivory door are going to be influential for your religion. They are going to be tied up into the legend of the Cave of Stars and Kaspar. A surrealist image is likely to make your religion more mysterious and mystic. The struggle value will also tie into your religion, but it's primary effect is on your current Values.

Debts are important, but not that important. You're eligible to pick up a Debt related honour value the next time you have a slot open, but until that happens, debts aren't considered that important. You wouldn't go to war over an unpaid debt unless it had caused harm to the People. The Pearl Divers don't place as much value on debt as you. They see gifts primarily as a way to prove your fitness, your connections, and your wit. They're given first as a sort of resume. In the People, gifts are extended first and then it's up to the recipient to prove worthy of it. A member of the People would only be compelled to serve after they failed to repay a gift they willingly accepted. You couldn't spontaneously give a gift in order to force another into debt.

The reason that the Pearl Divers want to find something else to trade with you is because you're actually taking most of their pearls. It's hard for them to officially run their government if no one can speak because they don't have enough pearls to do it properly.
 
sam5447 said:
It seems lile no one realizes that our civ is the only one using salt.
It said in the update that the pearl divers cannpt produce enough salt to meet our civs demand
If we help them make saltern not only will the extra supply drive down cost we are paying for it but we will be able to trade it with other civs and then its trending status will benefit us
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We are well aware of the value of the salt trade.
But note that trending trade demands vary. Helping them build more salterns is a mid-term boost.
The aim for "find something else to trade" was an attempt to drag them into our influence via persistent trade imbalance, getting us access to the ocean.

A bit more of a gamble of course
Redium said:
You're likely more violent than some polities (Arrow Lake and Pearl Divers), but more forgiving than others (Bond Breakers, South Lake, Tribe of the West). Look at the Peace Builders, for example: Do It or Die and Open Hand, Closed Fist synergize in a way that's really, really bad. They needed to develop Speaking Circle and Protective Justice in order to bring an end to the vicious intra-tribal feuds that had rocked them for decades.
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Also noting that Protective Justice and Speaking Circle means that if someone overreacts to an offense by one of their number(like we did with that spying incident) they're probably going to suicide into that guy, because they'd never ever give up until they shatter.
Redium said:
South Lake and the Bond Breakers are locked in a desperate, existential war. Both of them are taking on as many elitist, stabilizing, violence, and struggle traits that they can in order to fight their way.
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Well now...good thing we don't have a direct border. Whoever comes out of that is going to fight whoever the hell they can reach.
Redium said:
The Mountain Clans are raiders, at this point by necessity, but they'll start doing it out of habit as they stabilize more and more. They've swollen with so many refugees that their old lifestyle isn't sustainable any more so they have to either take, or figure out how on earth to farm.
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And they're probably not going to figure out farming without taking it by force either.
Redium said:
I don't think I've commented on the metal content in the region? I've acknowledged that Tin is rare in North America, but I've also said that you'll have a chance to get it purely on dice rolls.

I will advise that you start deciding on whether you want to build Tall or build wide soon. You're kind of in-between now and it's hurting you from doing either. If you want to build Tall, build the Hills and Temples so that you can get them locked in as soon as possible. If you want to build wide, start dropping settlements, like next turn. Most of the Wide builders are soon getting to the point where they'll be twice your size (in controlled area, you technically have more uncontrolled turf).

You should also think about whether you want to dominate Rahu Bay and the lands south of it in the west or control the White River's flood plain in the east. If you don't go for either, the Faction that gets one of them will be able to snap you over their knee.
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Got it. Going to go for the Temple and Hills then, as a focus next turn, we can finish the Hills pretty quickly and we're going to want the defensive boost due to our smaller sizes.

Which settlement option best secures the flood plain? Need to plan this out over a few turns, since we need to finish the infrastructure first before grabbing the settlement.

[x] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
[x] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Encourage the People's traders to find something else they can trade for.
[x] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[x] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
 
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[x] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
[x] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.
[x] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[x] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
 
veekie said:
Which settlement option best secures the flood plain? Need to plan this out over a few turns, since we need to finish the infrastructure first before grabbing the settlement.
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The flood plain to the east? Settling River-Bend will open two settlement sites, one near the three lakes south of the Great River, by the Cave of Stars, and a second along the river down to the Island Makers. You'll want to grab the second site. That will open up another settlement site just north of the Island Makers that you can nab to fully lock down the southern border.

Aeva would also suggest raiding the Mountain Clans until they pull back far enough that they give up on the island in the middle of White River. That's actually a settlement site as well, but you can't settle it since control is contested. That will secure the flood plain's eastern flank. If they settle it, it will make digging them out and securing the flood plain a pain.
 
Redium said:
Yes, the Norse contact has been definitively proven. It just didn't lead to any type of long-lasting exchange or trade. I'm not really sure what @Marlin was referencing by New and Old World trade which was what that comment was about.
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I was refrencing a record of a spice or plant commonly native to the Americas found in Egypt, or a artifact from one of the dead Americas civilizations found in Asia or Africa (might have been a chinese artifact in the Americas, or an artifact from a civ that traded everywhere landing in the americas). Bits and pieces that make no sense, like elephant statues in the americas, without a trade connection by sea from at least the coast of Egypt to the coast of one of the Americas.
 
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Redium said:
The flood plain to the east? Settling River-Bend will open two settlement sites, one near the three lakes south of the Great River, by the Cave of Stars, and a second along the river down to the Island Makers. You'll want to grab the second site. That will open up another settlement site just north of the Island Makers that you can nab to fully lock down the southern border.

Aeva would also suggest raiding the Mountain Clans until they pull back far enough that they give up on the island in the middle of White River. That's actually a settlement site as well, but you can't settle it since control is contested. That will secure the flood plain's eastern flank. If they settle it, it will make digging them out and securing the flood plain a pain.
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Yeah, this sounds like a plan to me. And it concentrates on gaining and keeping dominance on the 'central region' between a bunch of tribes, including the riverways that allow one to travel from any tribe to any other tribe.
 
[x] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
[x] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Expand the Pearl Diver's salterns with the People's Stone magic.
[x] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[x] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
 
Redium said:
The flood plain to the east? Settling River-Bend will open two settlement sites, one near the three lakes south of the Great River, by the Cave of Stars, and a second along the river down to the Island Makers. You'll want to grab the second site. That will open up another settlement site just north of the Island Makers that you can nab to fully lock down the southern border.

Aeva would also suggest raiding the Mountain Clans until they pull back far enough that they give up on the island in the middle of White River. That's actually a settlement site as well, but you can't settle it since control is contested. That will secure the flood plain's eastern flank. If they settle it, it will make digging them out and securing the flood plain a pain.
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Alright, so with food secured this turn, we ram through the Hills and Temples, while raiding the Mountain Clans off the island(stay on the damned mountains!). The turn after next we should be able to grab the settlement sites.
 
[x] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
[x] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Encourage the People's traders to find something else they can trade for.
[x] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[x] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
 
Redium said:
What trade are you referring to? Before colonization there wasn't more than uncertain, disputed contact with the Old World.
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Probably the traces of nicotine and cocaine (both found only at American plants at the time) found in some Egyptian mummies. Even in Tutankhamen's tomb the archeologists found dead tobacco beetles.
 
veekie said:
Alright, so with food secured this turn, we ram through the Hills and Temples, while raiding the Mountain Clans off the island(stay on the damned mountains!). The turn after next we should be able to grab the settlement sites.
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Nah, we need to settle river bend before we can settle further down the river, so we should do that next turn while we know our food is good.

Also, locking in temples feels like a waste of our new legacy to me.

Finally, a question for @Redium (or anyone else who's figured it out). Is locking in buildings done the normal way, or is it done by having them in every settlement?
 
Changed my vote slightly...

[x] [Dedication] Scenes of Mountains and Natural Geography.
[x] [Value] The spirits of land and stone have since been bound by mortar and wrought stone. (Value Synergy)
[x] [Pearl] Encourage the People's traders to find something else they can trade for.
[x] [Action] Check on the Northlands. The Cave of Stars did kill their High Shaman. (Trade: Northlands)
[x] [Action] Stay home and farm. (Expand Agriculture: Quinoa)
 
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