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From Stone to the Stars

Reader mode
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] 12 hours

Thank the Spirits for Kaspar! Things would have gone so much worse without him.
 
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] No
 
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] 12 hours
No need for it to be to long, but some time for some thought is nice.
 
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] 12 hours
 
Redium said:
Once you figure out the concept behind watchtowers. They're likely to be less useful than you think, however. The forests that surround you have tress that are easily 40-50 feet tall. Vision to the horizon is extremely short. If you're up high enough to be above the treeline, then you're too high to see anyone sneaking in underneath it. They would be helpful only in watching your riverrine trade routes.
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Considering how important our riverine trade is both externally and internally, seeing as it acts as a highway for us of sorts, this sounds like an potential upgrade to the fire relay in that we also install watchtowers as well along the route, allowing our people there to both have the high ground view as well as that of the low. Useful in detecting threats and also trade missions.

Redium said:
Yes. It's very hard to determine how valuable things are sometimes. Everyone agrees that if you spend 10,000 calories building a canoe, you should get that much food back. However, they recognize that spending 10,000 calories collecting quartz and 10,000 calories tanning leather is not equal. The later is objectively more horrible than the latter so it should rewarded more. How this reward is determined is extremely arbitrary.

To prevent cheaters for intra-tribe trade, you can appeal to the local Big Man or whoever on his Slate has had dispute resolution delegated to them (usually a trusted friend/elder of the Big Man). For inter-tribal trade, cheaters don't really prosper. You can usually cheat, once, and get away with it, but you'll never be trusted again. People are extremely protective of their reputations. A reputation for trustworthiness can save your life if you're injured or sick and can't feed yourself. Or if you're simply unlucky in catching food.
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So we're obviously still in a barter based economy where your worth as a trader is based partially on both your own reputation as well as that of your goods.

I'm guessing that last bit there at the end about reputations applies to more than just individuals however.

Redium said:
You don't have dedicate merchants yet. There's not enough Hierarchy or Specialization in your society to be able to do that.
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I here a yet in there. The question is, how would traders be seen as in our society at this point in time? In most classical and ancient cultures the merchant classes were eyed with disdain by both the nobility and the peasants as they simply made profits off of the fruits of others works. Would that be the same here?

Redium said:
Depends on the government type. Currently, Legitimacy is tied to the Ruler.
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In short we're likely to be fucked when Kaspar and Maksus die, unless we generate another hero that is.

Redium said:
You're good for millennia. Everything west of the White River is clay-based soil until you get into the foothills to the west. Arrow Lake is also primarily clay-based as well.
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Considering all of the troubles the South seems to be giving us, I really want to oust them from the Hundred Isles and built a freaking wall or something from all of that clay. Does Arrow Lake know how to use the clay on their territory?

Redium said:
Nope, should've picked Study Fire. That would've gotten you interesting stuff. Some of the best stuff is stuck behind Study Fire.
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I don't think the QM could be any clearer in his hinting about which potential action we should take as he just outright stated it.

Redium said:
They would probably come and try to trade with you. If, at that point, you refused, they would be pretty pissed. Kaspar's going to take Trade: Northern Hinterlands next turn. If you don't take it the turn after that, he would be pissed because that would've secured it as an automatic action. If the Northern Hinterlands lose access to obsidian, that means more of them are going to die on dangerous hunts where they wouldn't have before. They'll understand if something happens to you, but not if you just stop trading with them.
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Good to know, long term this will likely be useful as well. Eventually we know that the Thumpers, the mammoths they hunt, are going to go extinct, when that happens I think our trading relationship with them will allow us to step in and essentially assimilate them during their time of need, assuming that is they don't migrate out of the area.

Redium said:
Pick Study Fire when it's available after a forest fire. Study Fire has all sorts of goodies. It's probably the best Study action you have access to. Ember-Eyes OP.
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Okay I was wrong, this is the most clear statement of what we should do in the future. Study Fire should be something we should exploit considering how powerful you seem to hint it as being.

Redium said:
Every few days, there would be a dispute between the remnants of the Hundred Bands and that of the People.
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No surprise there, it seems even with Kaspar's efforts there are still issues due to that shortsighted decision, ones we will have to deal with for a long time coming, and with his old age I doubt the best Big Men will be as well equipped to handle it.

Redium said:
Where the union really started to fray, was with the traders. An informal group, they were all deeply trusted by Kaspar, and bore a mix of skills from serpent's tongues to strong arms and strong backs. They were a close knit band, every one displaying the teamwork that made the Brother Wolf so fearsome.
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This sort of seems like a hint that a new caste or role is growing within our tribe l, that if merchants and traders. I wonder if it will be accepted as a role or perhaps due to how important our trade relations are, with a good number of them now becoming ingrained, I believe that they likely could become a fully fledged caste or holy order unto themselves.

Redium said:
He had asked them to go south, and see if an accord with South Lake could be struck. They succeeded, but it was apparently a harrowing experience. When the first appeared over the horizon, they had been greeted at arrow and spear point. When they had called out in the language of the Hundred Bands, the only one that the People could possibly share with South Lake, violence nearly erupted. It was only some fast talking that calmed things down enough for everyone to speak.
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Such great friend we are making...truly a most hospitable people...

Redium said:
None of the traders could quite manage to keep to frowns off their faces. Based on vague descriptions, it sounded like the original source for lapis was still Arrow Lake. The traders were quite confused when the traders of South Lake said that the purchased the lapius from an intermediary overland. Based on where they thought Arrow Lake was in relation to South Lake, it wasn't that far. South Lake should've been able to trade with them by water. The answer to that had been pure confusion. Yes, the Southlands had lakes and rivers, but it didn't even seem to be a fraction of the number of lakes and rivers that the People were used to.
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Yeah this isn't suspicious at all...

Redium said:
Still, that conundrum only made South Lake's trade less useful. The People had direct access there and long-standing trade ties. Getting more of the beautiful blue stone would be easier and far cheaper there, not to mention the fact that a canoe transported so much more without having to carry anything. The ochre offered was interesting, but not interesting enough to off-set the cost of obsidian and sugar.
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So in essence we probably don't have a reason to potentially with them any further considering they both offer little we materially want and what we do want, freeing the slaves, doesn't seem like something they are willing to do.

Redium said:
A few delicate inquires about the possibility of purchasing... People were quickly rebuffed. Apparently South Lake had a brisk trade. Their war against the Island Makers was going well and they took home numerous men and women. Apparently, the Island Makers were a tribe skilled in the movement of earth and water. Putting them to work apparently went a long way to making South Lake's 'farms' productive. They liked obsidian and the taste of sugar was divine, but it didn't fill their bellies like 'crops' could.
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Nice neighbors we have here. Slaving, warlike, and also bad trade partners.

Redium said:
South Lake was clearly the worst of all possible trade partners; eminently practical and utterly uninterested in frippery.
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Once again this reinforces my decision that we should probably not continue to initiate trade with them.

Redium said:
South Lake quickly fell in love with obsidian, using it as much as they possibly could. It was a better tool and a sharper weapon than flint and from what South Lake eagerly shared, they had a great need for both. War to gather more slaves and tools to put those slaves to work. Combined with the excitement from the Northern Hinterlands, and the People were trading away obsidian almost as fast as they could mine it!
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Yeah, hearing all of this makes me want to say that we should not be encouraging their behaving by supplying them with more obsidian.

Redium said:
During a Trend, a specific type of trade good becomes significantly more profitable than it would normally be. Trends are generally transitory, but during that time can be extremely powerful for whomever controls the source of the trending good. Leading traders get twice the normal profit. Dominant ones get three times the benefit. Based on the current economic type, trends boost diplomacy. After currency is invented, they will boost wealth. Factions wanting a Trend Good, but being unable to obtain them, for whatever reason, will suffer Stability damage.
Trigger: Trade good is in great demand by 1 Regional Power, 3 regular powers, OR 5 minor powers.
Effect: Leading traders get double profit, Dominant ones triple; Stability damage for recipient powers who can't obtain the trending good
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Our position in this seems obvious, we are either the leading trader or the dominant trader of obsidian seeing as no one else possesses it. While the three regular powers that seem to be demanding it are the South Lake Tribe, the Arrow Lake Tribe, and the Northern Hinterlands Tribe. With the knowledge that cutting off access to obsidian will likely cause stability damage to someone I think this is what we should exactly do to the South Lake Tribe.

They are not our friends. At best they are simply convenient trade partners until our trade for their corn runs its course. They are what they are, an aggressive slave state that we should be wary of, and treat as a potential future adversary to be crushed in battle. When we inevitably deny them the obsidian they will likely come to us looking for it, and considering their behavior they will do so with violence in mind. I say let them come so that we can crush them when they do.

Redium said:
There were some whispers of worry at exactly how fast obsidian was being given away, but Kaspar felt that was less of a concern than many of the other elders. Based on reports from explorers, Crystal Lake had numerous deposits and only a single one of them had truly been tapped. At the current rate of usage, it would be... generations upon generations before it became a true concern.
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That's good to know. By the time we likely end up exhausting our obsidian deposits we should hopefully have obtained the ability to produce copper and bronze.

Redium said:
News of the trade deal quickly spread through the People and enraged many formerly of the Hundred Bands. Many of them had family or friends murdered or enslaved by South Lake. The broke out into nearly fatal violence when a few former Hundred Bands sneaked their way into a trade group heading to South Lake. By unfortunate coincidence, one of the men happened to come across their sister and her many, many children. The condition of their keeping had left him unsatisfied.
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Is anyone really surprised by this outcome? I'm not, and I can't even blame the Hundred Bands for their reaction here. I would be mad too if they used one of my family members as a slave and what appears to be a breeding mare if the emphasis on many many children means anything.

The South Lake tribe has cemented their place for me as an eventual enemy. They disgust me more than the Hundred Bands ever did.

Redium said:
Kaspar himself, despite the protesting of his old bones, had to travel down to smooth things over. Despite initial misgivings about him being too old to possibly be a Big Man, he managed to talk South Lake into a more favourable deal. They released the sister and her children, but Kaspar knew that behind their smiles, South Lake had far more of the Hundred Bands' civilians. They also managed to agree to a more favourable trade deal. While South Lake didn't have anything the People were interested in trading for (and weren't willing to trade people), they instead offered something different. Apparently, just as the People had tamed wolves into dogs, South Lake had tamed a plant: sweetcorn.
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So this is confirmation that we are indeed in North America. The Sugar Maple tree range is confined to North America, the corn just further confirms it as before the Columbian Exchange, corn was unknown to the old world.

Redium said:
Unlike wild rice, this plant could be grown en-mass on land and eaten. It could simply be boiled or mashed into a simple meal. Once water was added to cornmeal and the entire thing heated, it turned into solid biscuits that were easy to store. There were many plants like that in the south, according to South Lake. If they collected samples, those could be sent up to the People who could grow them as additional food. That additional good would then allow them to mine even more obsidian, South Lake's traders suggested.
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We should take them up on it for now. When they've outlived their usefulness we should deal with them then. I believe they know how much they need obsidian so they will likely string his along with their samples until it is too late. If need be I suggest we try to have them come to us on our terms so that we can get a better deal and the later cut them off so as to incite them.

Redium said:
Kaspar didn't miss the implication that if the People were still unhappy at such a deal, South Lake could begin looking for obsidian themselves. Preferably wherever it was that the People found it.
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I welcome them to try taking it from us, it will give us all the excuse we need to end them.

Redium said:
Still it was a fantastic deal. He knew how much access to rice had improved the People. How would corn or other crops? From what he was gathering of South Lake's motives, they were counting on it taking time for the People to capitalize on new crops for it to make any difference. Or perhaps they were desperate. South Lake was aggressive and had only been encouraged by their total victory against the Hundred Bands and ongoing success against the Island Makers. Thinking on it more deeply, it didn't sound to Kaspar like South Lake traded with an intermediary to get lapis from Arrow Lake. They most likely took it. There were likely other tribes, both on the land south of South Lake and tribes further to the west. It was likely they had numerous enemies.
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In essence it is only a matter of time before they are done in. We should not continue extending that time frame for them. From what we knew of them before the Hundred Bands captives they had labeled them as unremarkable compared to the island makers. It is only due to the circumstances of the forest fire and our war with them that allows the South Lake tribe to defeat the Hundred Bands.

These people are not our allies. We should be doing our level best to accelerating their collapse.

Redium said:
In order to deal with an imbalance of trade, a Faction has entered an unorthodox trade arrangement. This arrangement involves trading technology or other valuable ideas in order to fulfill this demand. This trade may be severed at any time by the one offering technology, but there is often a reason why they are forced into this position. Retribution may be swift for breaking such agreements.
Effects: Unorthodox Trade Recipients gain 1 innovation roll each turn with technologies taken from the unorthodox trader's entire technology list
Trigger: Lose a war; trade imbalance; diplomatic action
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Obviously the South Lake tribe are trading their crop technology in exchange for obsidian. However as noted they could sever these ties at any time. We should be wary of when they do so.

Redium said:
The weapons that obsidian made were cruel and vicious, great instruments for killing. Perhaps they felt they needed the extra edge at all costs.
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They likely do considering how many enemies they have.

Redium said:
None of that was truly Kaspar's concern. He knew an excellent deal when he saw one and struck a bargain. It was when he returned home that the problems truly started in earnest. The women he'd purchased had returned to her family and spoken extensively about the treatment she and the other slaves taken by South Lake received. It had enraged many amongst the former Hundred Bands and inspired many to near violence.

Some even went so far as to hatch a plot to steal canoes and launch a war-party of their own. A rescue mission they called it. Thankfully, Kaspar's old ruling of punishing silence in plots came in use and caused several nervous individuals to confess everything. The punishments after that incident were harsh and notably inflamed tensions. Kaspar had negotiated a trade deal with South Lake. To turn and then strike at them would be purest folly. If other tribes caught word that the People were double dealers, that they came with peace in one hand but a blade in the other, they would never be trusted again.
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Glad to see one of old decisions paid off.

In order to avoid being seen as double dealers we should not be the ones to instigate the violence. Instead we should cut off trade eventually and let the South Lake tribe throw themselves against our walls.

Redium said:
As the situation festered, the People and Hundred Bands started to slowly segregate themselves from each other. Kaspar knew that was civil war waiting to follow, in perhaps two generations at most. He needed to intervene, and forcefully at that. In the end, he turned to his family, his children, grandchildren, and even great grandchildren. He turned to the families and descendants of his Slate. Offering promises, bribes, gifts, and even a few threats, he managed to convince enough people to enter marriages with the Hundred Bands. It didn't heal the rifts, but it forcefully stitched them close.
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Saved by a hero once again. As much as people tout our skills at integration we seem to be lousy at doing it without the help of a hero.

This should illustrate one of our future priorities, ensuring that integration succeeds and that we do not end up in a civil war due to the bad decision that was made.

Redium said:
To cement it all, Kaspar took another wife. He hadn't wanted to marry the young woman, mustering himself to put even a single child in her was a painful process, but she was the lynch pin. Her brother and three of her cousins remained extremely influential among the Hundred Bands. If they became family to the People, then the rift would finally close over. It didn't solve everything, but it started the healing.
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Talk about taking one for the team.

We can only hope this succeeds, otherwise we are in for a lot of pain.

Redium said:
Most of the final stages of Kaspar's life were spent on codifying what he had done while younger. He continued trade ties with Arrow Lake and with the Northern Hinterlands. Good ties should be fostered there in order to secure their borders and, in the case of Arrow Lake, their lapis luzili. He wasn't certain, but from what he could tell, they were fairly isolated. Aside from the river to the Fingers, it didn't sound like they had many rivers they could otherwise use to trade. Cornering that trade good would pay dividends in the future.
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One of our key goals should be to make it so that we tie our trade partners to us. Right now I believe that our goods outweigh theirs in the long run. If we play the long game we should be able to integrate them as well in the far future so long as we continue trading.

Redium said:
Pointedly, he ignored South Lake. He knew that they would come to the People to trade, but if the People went to them, internal wounds would be ripped open.
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Exactly let them come to us. Less internal divisions, a likelihood of obtaining a better deal, and potentially later a cassus belli.

Redium said:
He also focused on the memories of the fires that had burned so brilliantly a generation before, on both a spiritual and practical level. The Hundred Bands survivors were given a place of honour as Survivors. They had passed the Ordeal of Fire with their lives. The spirits had tested them and they had passed. It wasn't as effective as if it was right after the fires, but it did give the Hundred Bands a new source of respect within the People. Wounds started to heal as the power of the Hundred Bands' spirit was celebrated.
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Glad to see something going right.

Redium said:
Compatible Values Detected!
Fuse: Ordeal + Double Down -> Trial By Fire?

[ ] [Value] Yes
[ ] [Value] No
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Personally speaking I think this value fusion is a good idea. From what we know of their double down value it allowed them to succeed even despite failure, which meshes well with our ordeal value. The key thing to remember is that it can also be a double edged sword if we use it wrongly or rely on it too often as the Hundred Bands did, so we should keep that in mind while in play.

Redium said:
Martial 1: Undergo Ordeal Now Locked In
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I'm assuming this means that every year ordeals will now be undergone regularly?

What does that mean if our values fuse like in the above vote?

Redium said:
There was also a more practical level as well. Apparently, corn had been a crop that the Hundred Bands had cultivated in large amounts. All of their seed stock was destroyed during the great fires when they fled. Now that the People had access to a new source, the skills of the Hundred Bands could be put to good use. The fires from a generation ago had also churned the soil and brought new fertility to it. The newly planted corn grew unusually effectively. Based on what Kaspar could deduce, it seemed that fires burning across the land left something in the soil the inspired the growth of new life.
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Seems to me that we should work on corn production to help integrate the Hundred Bands.

I think we should study fire on this as well due to the above as well as the QM hints.

Redium said:
The last project was by far, Kaspar's most ambitious: The Hill. Everyone knew that walking uphill in order to attack your enemy made everything significantly more difficult. Half of the defenses of the Fingers were, aside from the river on which it sat, the fact that any attackers would have to surmount a small mountain before the People could even be attacked. Such geographic features were, obviously, inconveniently located. There were not many places like the Fingers were you effectively had a mountain coming out of a river.

As a position of defense, it was supreme and unmatched. So, with that in mind, why couldn't the People simply build a hill? It would take effort to move the dirt, but there wasn't anything particularly hard about it. At least, so Kaspar thought at first. Moving large amounts of earth was difficult. Rain tended to wash them away, and there were issues of them creating unstable platforms. Dirt, especially if it was wet, shifted notably during the winters. The freezing of water into ice and the subsequent settling in the spring could cause the entire thing to crumble.

The construct had to have its spine stiffened, mostly by bricks or by rock.

Kaspar had chosen a site west of Crystal Lake, on the Great Bay near where a number of rivers poured into it. It was a good location, irrigated enough that water barred many approaches and still had foliage coverage, unlike the bay's more western reaches. It also guarded the entrance to the valley that housed Crystal Lake.
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So that's what that next mega project was.

Glad to see we are fortifying ourselves against potential enemies from either side. While I would have preferred to have built the next settlement in between the Fingers and Crystal Lake, I can see the wisdom in this as well.

I wonder though, have we gained any new technologies to build this hill/mound? Such as tamped earth or full stonemasons?


Redium said:
According to Maksus, a small group of the Barrow Builders or Peace Seekers were caught hunting closer and closer to Crystal Lake. There hadn't been contact yet, but it would occur soon. Kaspar wanted Crystal Lake to be well fortified so that it was impossible to strike against them. Building a great Hill and then laying a settlement on top of it would give the People undisputed mastery over their river system and go a long way to protect their most important Wondrous place.
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Interesting to see that the Peace Seekers and Barrow Builders still appear to be distinct groups rather than one absorbing the other. @Redium Is vassalage a thing yet?

The fact that they are hunting this far from their territory though is suspicious though.

Redium said:
It also, incidentally, taught the People much about the art of organizing large groups of workers and moving massive amounts of earth. Those lessons would be immensely useful once they started to grow corn in any substantial volume.
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New technologies I assume?

Redium said:
[ ] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[ ] [West] Trade: Peace Seekers/Barrow Builders?
[ ] [West] Promote Folk Wrestling
[ ] [West] Explore: Great Bay
[ ] [West] Party Hard! (Annual Festival)
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Out of those options I think the best option is finishing the hill. It would cap off Kaspars reign and serve as another bulwark against our potential enemies.

Quick question though, @Redium will completing the project also lead to a settlement being formed automatically on the hill or will that have to be a separate action?

Redium said:
AN: Participants have asked for a vote moratorium. This is something I believe would be beneficial, but I will leave it up to the voters.

[ ] [Moratorium] None
[ ] [Moratorium] 12 hours
[ ] [Moratorium] 24 hours
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12 seems fair to me.

Here is my vote in any case:

[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] 12 hours
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Apr 3, 2018 at 6:34 AM, finished with 29 posts and 24 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Apr 3, 2018 at 6:49 AM, finished with 30 posts and 25 votes.
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[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] None

I remember there being a map for this story, but I can't find it anymore to see where the Megaproject could potentially be? Did it get accidentally removed, or was it removed for editing purposes?

Anyway; yes to the value because it should help integrate the Hundred Bands and because they used it to great effect. Finish the hill to cap off our hero's life, while giving us another settlement in a good location and defending our wonderous one at the same time. The final vote on the moratorium I don't think is necessary.
 
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[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] 12 hours
 
Japanime said:
@Redium Is there any conscious effort we can do to shore up and build up our stability in terms of actions?
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Not the QM, but if I had to guess, Raiding South Lake and recovering the slaves would do. It's what the Hundred Band want, and South Lake hasn't exactly been good hosts to the People.

It's a good thing South Lake will provide us Casus Belli as soon as we cut off trade, assuming of course that they live up to their threats.
 
[X] [Value] Yes
[X] [West] Finish the Hill (Megaproject: The Hill 4/4)
[X] [Moratorium] 12 hours

The constant warring that south lake is doing will fuck them over sooner or later.
 
Hannz said:
Not the QM, but if I had to guess, Raiding South Lake and recovering the slaves would do. It's what the Hundred Band want, and South Lake hasn't exactly been good hosts to the People.

It's a good thing South Lake will provide us Casus Belli as soon as we cut off trade, assuming of course that they live up to their threats.
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I thought that as well but who knows how long that will take to occur. If we don't get another hero to assume the mantle of, then one of our priorities should be to not initiate trade with them for obvious reasons, to drive them to strike against us. Hopefully they will get a big head due to their easy victory against the Hundred Bands and make easy pickings for us. However their war with the Islanders Makers might catalyze some development in how to deal with settlements such as ours. The Island Makers are describes as Masters of Water and Earth, so who knows what they've learned through conflict.

I can only hope that we get another martial hero to deal with everything because right now we a lot of enemies too. The South Lake Tribe for obvious reasons, the Island Makers due our trading, again stupid decision, with the South Lake Tribe, and potentially the Barrow Builders did to our past conflict with them on behalf of the Peace Seekers, who also might not be friendly to us.

My question for everyone right now is that if we have to fight a war soon, who do we prioritize as I don't think we can win a war or multiple fronts?
 
Japanime said:
My question for everyone right now is that if we have to fight a war soon, who do we prioritize as I don't think we can win a war or multiple fronts?
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South Lake.

The enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend, but I won't go out of my way to antagonize them either when they're being so useful in tying up our mutual adversary. I'm assuming the Island Makers will follow the same philosophy out of pragmatism if nothing else. The key here would be incurring less casualties than the Island Makers so we're in a position of strength after South Lake dies. The Peace Seekers and Burrow Builders are inching closer, but haven't actually gone hostile. They also haven't displayed any engineering feats that would suggest that they could circumvent our brick walls, unlike South Lake who see some measure of success against the Island Makers.
 
The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, nothing more nothing less.

Or in other words: We may have momentarily coinciding goals, but unless we work on it, all they are is momentarily coinciding.
 
Hannz said:
South Lake.

The enemy of my enemy isn't necessarily my friend, but I won't go out of my way to antagonize them either when they're being so useful in tying up our mutual adversary. I'm assuming the Island Makers will follow the same philosophy out of pragmatism if nothing else. The key here would be incurring less casualties than the Island Makers so we're in a position of strength after South Lake dies. The Peace Seekers and Burrow Builders are inching closer, but haven't actually gone hostile. They also haven't displayed any engineering feats that would suggest that they could circumvent our brick walls, unlike South Lake who see some measure of success against the Island Makers.
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Personally speaking I agree. Though all of this is conditional. We might have to work on our timing if we plan on triggering a war against the South Lake Tribe. Right now we do not know the full intentions of the Barrow Builders and the Peace Seekers. If we plan to slowly instigate a war with the South Lake Tribe through causing stability problems through cutting off their supply of obsidian we must not rush into it without assuring that one of our flanks remains secure. In a war between either us and the South Lake Tribe, and us and the Barrow Builders, I think that we'd have a decided advantage against the Barrow Builders compared to the South Lake Tribe, at least locally, due to how closely situated our settlements are to the front.

Once our settlement is set up at the Hill, I think we should try to scout out at least one of the two potential enemies we have so that we can get more information, both for warfare purposes and not. Once we figure out the intentions of one of the tribes, whether or not one or the other is preparing to attack us, then we can strike while knowing that one of our flanks are secure.

We can always deal with the Island Makers later as they are still fighting the South Lake Tribe and are likely recovering from the forest fire. That being said, raiding the South Lake Tribe likely will not be our immediate option for shoring up stability, which we really need to do, so there has to be something else. I'm guessing it will likely be related to our trait fused with their double down trait, something we can accomplish which the Hundred Bands failed at that we can use to increase stability.
 
We also want to remember that it's been explicitly stated that attacking anyone that we've traded with is a really really bad idea unless we have a really good reason for it, or else we're going to develop a reputation as double-dealing backstabbing jerks and basically ruin what pathetic diplomatic stand we have as is.
 
Space Jawa said:
We also want to remember that it's been explicitly stated that attacking anyone that we've traded with is a really really bad idea unless we have a really good reason for it, or else we're going to develop a reputation as double-dealing backstabbing jerks and basically ruin what pathetic diplomatic stand we have as is.
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Which is why we bait South Lake into attacking us. If they are big enough arseholes, they will attack us to get what they want from us rather than play nice.
 
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