[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] New vistas. (Explore: Hundred Isles/Southwest White River)
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] New friends? (Trade: South Lake)
The gradual warming of the weather eventually reached a point where is started to become uncomfortable. The summers began getting longer and longer. In some cases, delaying autumn or even nipping at the edges of winter. The air shimmered, beaten down under the oppressive sun's rays. Trees and grasses started to burn under the unrelenting heat, dying and turning yellow or dropping their leaves in great numbers. Even the mighty Great and White Rivers started to feel kiss of the sun, their waters lapping lower and lower at their banks.
That's interesting. Good to know the other river has been named now. As for the abrupt climate change it looks like we may be at the end of the Younger Dryas Period and thus the last glacial maximum, meaning that our neighbors up north might begin to see the Mammoth populations start to dwindle as their habitats start to become inhospitable to them.
They had been weak from their last, failed raid against the People a generation ago. They had managed to turn their war with the West into a bloody stalemate and eventually started to slowly recover their strength. That changed as the world slowly dried out and eventually caught fire. West of the White River, many of the small, family farms that the Hundred Bands used to feed themselves were wiped out or abandoned in the face of the spirits' fury.
Seems like we got either a very lucky roll this turn, in that this change of climate essentially devastated two of our potential rivals and enemies, weakening them considerably, or we just rolled a bad weather roll that screwed everyone else over, but due to our choices allowed us to survive it. Either or works considering how we seemed to have remained stable while the other two were crippled. It is curious to note how he mentions that the Hundred Bands has farms on the mainland, which suggests to me that the Hundred Bands likely had a staple crop of some sort that supported them like Wild Rice does for us.
Fires raged through the lands of the Western Bands as well, forcing them to pull back. Not only was the mainland scorched, but apparently the fires jumped to their main island as well. Both tribes were heavily damaged, virtually crippled for the Hundred Bands when accounting for existing damage, but it wasn't something that either of them could truly take advantage of. A silent, uneasy peace broke out between the two factions.
For now it looks like the Island Builders, which I am using to refer to the Western Bands, got savaged equally as hard, which might make them vulnerable later if we are feeling up for it and they are hostile.
Into the middle of this, the South Lake tribe struck, crashing into the Hundred Bands' disorganized south and east flanks. Suffering from overpopulation as a result of taking in refugees, disorganization, and a critical depletion of manpower, the Hundred Bands folded. No longer could they prevent South Lake from ravaging their heartlands.
Right as a reminder for everyone who seems to be wanting to cozy up with the South Lake tribe, they do not seem to be nice people either. From what we know of them, there is precious little aside from the fact that the Hundred Bands were at war with them and the Island Builders. In this case the enemy of my previous enemy does not necessarily make them our friends, especially considering this:
Everyone in the current armada was all that remained of the Hundred Bands. Many had been enslaved by South Lake, others tried escaping to the west, but were cut down by their former enemies. Others escaped into the abundant waterways north and west of the White River. The last group turned their eyes to the People. They had warred in the past, but as far as the Hundred Bands knew, the People were the only possible source of succor. There had been a generation to heal the wounds caused by war. They prayed it was enough.
Yeah, they practice slavery too, and I am not sure if I would be willing to trade with them at this stage considering we don't know how hostile or not they may be to us. I'd also rather deal with trading away our precious resources or anything for slaves again like we did with the Hundred Bands. That ended up causing us more trouble than it was worth, and I'd rather not enrich another potentially hostile tribe, thus rewarding them for their enslaving ways.
Personally speaking I don't think this option is a viable one, first and foremost due to the fact that I don't think anyone will vote for it due to their preferences. Secondly, I am not sure of the value of Legitimacy at this stage considering we are doing very well, and also because by next turn it may not matter when Kaspar dies.
Essentially, we will be telling them to go away, and most likely head down towards the Arrow Lake tribe as that is the only one I think they could head to. Not a bad option per se in the grand scheme of things, as I'm not sure we can take in more refugees. Then again, we've done it before with both the Fingers and the River Bend Tribe, plus it seems likely we can handle them better than the previous instances as we already have members of the Hundred Bands within our camp, due to the fact that we accepted some of their old captives way back when into our tribe. The question is, what happens to the war captives we've captured if we incorporate their kinsmen in as full members?
This is a dicey option, not only because we'd be losing stability because of it. On the one hand accepting them could bolster our numbers and potentially provide us with some of their technologies and allow it to add it to our own. On the other hand, we still have the issue of the war captives we've caught, and their status to resolve. Considering how long we've been warring with them, this could divide us internally if our rolls for this are bad, and set us back more than -1 stability.
Quick question. @Redium At this stage what are the prospects of us founding a settlement down in the Hundred Isles? Do we have the population and manpower to do so? Or would it stretch us thin?
For reasons as I've stated above I do not think this is a good option. Firstly, I see many people pairing this option up with the option to accept the Hundred Band Refugees into our tribe. I doubt the refugees will take it well if try to essentially becomes friends with the tribe that annihilated and enslaved their friends and family, especially if what we do enriches their former enemies. Secondly, I don't think the South Lake Tribe are very friendly. Our only knowledge of them is that they they are south of the lake, used to war with the Hundred Bands, and they obviously practice slavery. I'm not entirely sure if this is a tribe we want to be friendly with or trade strategic resources to. Finally, while the QM was right to point out how deficient we've been at trade and diplomacy, I don't think think we know enough about them to initiate a friendship at this point.
Also not a very optimal option as we don't really know enough to make an informed decision as to whether a raid or not would both be beneficial, or successful. This is likely our last turn with Kaspar and Maksus as martial heroes, so if we chose to raid them I believe now would be the time. The only reason why I believe we could or should raid them is if they establish a settlement in the Hundred Isles, thus potentially posing a threat to us. From what we knew of the Hundred Bands, they weren't initially hostile to us, so we can't say for sure that the South Lake Tribe is justified in its raid on the Hundred Bands. So in the end, I once again think we need to take a step back and find out more.
Uhhh. @Redium What exactly does this entail specifically? I know what an ordeal is supposed to do mechanically, however I don't know what this ordeal would be in terms of the South Lake tribe.
Yeah...I'm sure that if we accept the refugees and throw a party on the basis of celebrating one of their hated enemies settling into their homelands, that would surely endure them to us. That was sarcasm by the way.
Personally I am favoring this option. Firstly it would give us information more on the layout of the region, thus giving us a better picture of the situation. Secondly, it could potentially either allow us to contact more tribes and gain relations, or find new wonders or resources to exploit. All in all I think this is both a safe and useful option.
Here are my votes:
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Refugees] "Tell them to set off and continue downriver."
[X] [Settlement] New vistas. (Explore: Hundred Isles/Southwest White River)
[X] [Settlement] New face, same enemies. (Raid: South Lake)
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Apr 1, 2018 at 3:45 PM, finished with 30 posts and 28 votes.
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X ] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X ] [Settlement] An opportunity! (Found Settlement: Hundred Isles)
[X ] [Settlement] New vistas. (Explore: Hundred Isles/Southwest White River)
Adhoc vote count started by sam5447 on Apr 1, 2018 at 1:17 PM, finished with 28 posts and 26 votes.
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] New vistas. (Explore: Hundred Isles/Southwest White River)
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] New vistas. (Explore: Hundred Isles/Southwest White River)
So for all of those who are voting to trade with the South Lake tribe, what is your reason for doing so considering that the winning vote for the refugees has us assimilating them?
Don't you think they might not be happy with us making nice with the people who killed and enslaved their friends and family?
So for all of those who are voting to trade with the South Lake tribe, what is your reason for doing so considering that the winning vote for the refugees has us assimilating them?
Don't you think they might not be happy with us making nice with the people who killed and enslaved their friends and family?
That still doesn't answer the second question I asked.
Do you honestly believe that if we integrate the refugees that there will not be a problem with then if we essentially trade with the people who are occupying their homeland and are currently enslaving their friends and family?
Furthermore why exactly do we need to do so now rather than get more information on them first?
The issue we had with the Hundred Bands did not stem from our not initiating first contact with them, which is what you seem to be advocating here. But instead a series of mistakes where our first lac approach to the captives they handed us, combined with our not consulting them on the issues of the infiltrators is what led to our problems with them. The example you use in this instance is not applicable because at the moment they haven't contacted us either.
For example when the Arrow Lake Tribe contacted us we didn't suffer at all from not contacting them again until the turn after under Kaspar. I see that similarly to here. If we chose to instead explore the area near then and gain information first, we don't lock ourselves out from contacting them. And if they were the type of people to attack us simply for not contacting them, not even meeting them really, then I doubt trade with them would be either worth it or would've worked out well.
The issue we had with the Hundred Bands did not stem from our not initiating first contact with them, which is what you seem to be advocating here. But instead a series of mistakes where our first lac approach to the captives they handed us, combined with our not consulting them on the issues of the infiltrators is what led to our problems with them. The example you use in this instance is not applicable because at the moment they haven't contacted us either.
First of all, BS. I am not advocating that all so don't try to undermine my argument with lies and falsehoods.
Edit: @Japanime Apologies if I have been a bit hostile here. I read and responded to your post shortly after a fight with family in RL so I don't think I was being entirely fair to you.
That still doesn't answer the second question I asked.
Do you honestly believe that if we integrate the refugees that there will not be a problem with then if we essentially trade with the people who are occupying their homeland and are currently enslaving their friends and family?
Furthermore why exactly do we need to do so now rather than get more information on them first?
The issue we had with the Hundred Bands did not stem from our not initiating first contact with them, which is what you seem to be advocating here. But instead a series of mistakes where our first lac approach to the captives they handed us, combined with our not consulting them on the issues of the infiltrators is what led to our problems with them. The example you use in this instance is not applicable because at the moment they haven't contacted us either.
For example when the Arrow Lake Tribe contacted us we didn't suffer at all from not contacting them again until the turn after under Kaspar. I see that similarly to here. If we chose to instead explore the area near then and gain information first, we don't lock ourselves out from contacting them. And if they were the type of people to attack us simply for not contacting them, not even meeting them really, then I doubt trade with them would be either worth it or would've worked out well.
Redium told us that a lack of diplomacy resulted in avoidable conflict with the Hundred Bands escalating to the point that neither side could peaceful back down from. If you want to try and deny that, I am quite willing to pull up the QM quotes to prove you wrong. I want to avoid repeating previous mistake by going with diplomacy when it comes to our interactions with our new neighbour to try and start a friendly relationship with them. I also want to contact them first as that will give us a position to negotiate things which benefit us as previously noted in the thread by both players and the QM.
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] Another test of the spirits. (Undergo Ordeal)
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] New vistas. (Explore:Hundred Isles/Southwest White River)
Alright, for the sake of internal stability from our Hundred Band Refugees, we'll avoid Trade for now. This does mean we need to double down on defense, but I'm sure we can manage.
Not budging on the assimilation though, too useful to pass up.
Edit: @Japanime Apologies if I have been a bit hostile here. I read and responded to your post shortly after a fight with family in RL so I don't think I was being entirely fair to you.
Redium told us that a lack of diplomacy resulted in avoidable conflict with the Hundred Bands escalating to the point that neither side could peaceful back down from. If you want to try and deny that, I am quite willing to pull up the QM quotes to prove you wrong. I want to avoid repeating previous mistake by going with diplomacy when it comes to our interactions with our new neighbour to try and start a friendly relationship with them. I also want to contact them first as that will give us a position to negotiate things which benefit us as previously noted in the thread by both players and the QM.
I am not disputing that our lack of diplomacy led to issues with the Hundred Bands. The problem I have with this is that you have for the second time ignored the second question I have posed to you and everyone else who have voted for trade.
The general premise of that question is, do you really believe it is worth trading even more internal stability for a chance with trading with the South Lake Tribe?
How exactly do you think our refugees will take it if it seems like we are getting friendly with the people who have destroyed their people and even now keep their friends and family in chains and bondage?
I think by going to explicitly trade with them we are going to be repeating the exact same mistakes we made with the Hundred Bands. Diplomacy here should not be made wtih just the considerations of our relationships with the tribes outside of our own. If we once again begin trading with another slave owning civilization, compromising our internal stability for a chance at a potential friendly relationship when we know the South Lake Tribe is nothing like the Arrow Lake or Northern Hinterlands Tribe, in that both of them didn't show up on our doorstep with the backdrop of annihilating another tribe, then we are simply inviting problems that we need not have.
I can see where you are everyone else are coming from in terms of diplomacy. Yet considering the fact that even more people want to integrate the Hundred Band survivors into our own tribe, it seems awfully counterproductive to straight off the bat go into a friendly relationship with a tribe that these refugees probably have hatred towards.
So I will ask you this for a third time.
Do you honestly believe that if we integrate the refugees that there will not be a problem with then if we essentially trade with the people who are occupying their homeland and are currently enslaving their friends and family? Do you not believe we will be causing internal strife with this decision?
Adhoc vote count started by Japanime on Apr 1, 2018 at 10:37 PM, finished with 39 posts and 29 votes.
[X] [Raid] No, focus on food. (Increase Aquaculture: Wild Rice)
Huh...didn't know that. That does bring up an interesting question though, how do we even communicate with most of the tribes we meet if there is a language barrier in place with most of them?
Pantomime is extremely important. It's also important to consider that each turn is equivalent to a generation. Most 'trade missions' are actually multiple trips, spaced over many years. Those who go on trade missions tend to be able to speak multiple language. Kaspar, for example, can speak three: the People's, the Hundred Bands' and Arrow Lake's. Plus, when you're bartering for less than half a dozen trade goods, it tends to be fairly easy to figure out of the other side thinks the trade is equitable by whether they're smiling or reaching for their club.
The Northern Hinterlands are fully nomadic hunter-gatherers. They primarily hunt herd animals like caribou, but have been known to take on thumpers as well. The lands north of you are absolutely infested by twisting passages of rivers, lakes, and streams. The Northern Hinterlands generally have a northern 'summer' camp and a southern 'winter' camp. The 'winter' camp would be ecologically familiar to the People, but at the latter, the trees grow quite small, instead of towering over humans, they're perhaps only two or three times the height. They also change in character from leaf bearing trees, to exclusively evergreen needles. Fish and berries tend to also be important dietary constants.
Socially? Kaspar hasn't really picked up on anything specific. Their magic and craft-making are both inferior to that of the People. They've done interesting things with the caribou that they hunt, but, again, Kaspar feels the People's transition from wolves to dogs is greater. The only notable thing that he's picked up is that they have some type of Social Harmony value.
The Doubled Down on you more than was wise. The Pioneering trait gave them free Econ (and thus Martial) every time they took a stability hit. They actually got militarily stronger over time. The issue was they have a tendency to 'shed' that strength in the form of breakaway neighbours. It's an extremely powerful trait combination, but it's basically redlining your engine. It will get you immediate power, but if you rely on it, boom.
Just for clarification then, is +2 the current limit for our stability, while our legitimacy can go higher than that? I'm unsure of how the mechanics here exactly work.
Legitimacy is the cap for Stability. You currently have 2 for both.
Legitimacy essentially functions as a meter of: "Are the right People in charge?" Stability functions as general social health. The two tend to function in interrelated ways. Low Stability tends to spawn riots, rebellions and other problems. Legitimacy then informs whether those problems as attacks against the nature of the state or attacks against the officers of the state. For example, a lot of pesant revolts in Europe believe that the king was on their side, if only they could make him listen. It was the corrupt nobility or insipid advisers that are the real cause of the problem.
If anything, our first fortifications will be city walls, not castles. Our current walls are short mudbrick constructions, with basic ramparts for standing on.
Slight correction, you're actually beyond mudbrick; that typically refers to sun-dried brick made of dirt. Your bricks are made from the local soil and then fired in a kiln. The soil around the Fingers, Arrow Lake, and west of the White River is basically all clay so you've twigged onto true bricks.
They aren't. Not in a quake zone. Its why Japanese castles are stone reinforced foundations and base, while the upper portions are wood. Stone makes building tall significantly more difficult and dangerous in a quake zone because of the load, while wooden upper sections reduces the load and thus the stress on the foundation when an earthquake happens, as well as tending to localize damage in the event of a collapse.
Also worth factoring in that having a source of readily available stone is not a given, its why brick construction is so much better, many places find it hard to cut and transport stone of suitable quality for construction, while the facilities to bake and transport brick is much easier(but with a longer chain of specialists to make both the bricks and the mortar).
Considering the benefits in one angle without considering the practical costs and the associated liabilities is, I think, a pretty big mistake.
Finally...hacking through a wooden wall is a lot more work than you make it sound. It only really works if they had unopposed access, because the kind of strong seasoned wood that goes into wall construction is actually pretty resistant to both chopping and fire.
Seems like we got either a very lucky roll this turn, in that this change of climate essentially devastated two of our potential rivals and enemies, weakening them considerably, or we just rolled a bad weather roll that screwed everyone else over, but due to our choices allowed us to survive it.
Climate was actually pretty harsh this turn. You just got to roll on the summer disaster table instead of the (much more common) winter disaster table since your past few turns were good weather. Your past actions have granted you a fair degree of immunity here. Wild Rice and aquaculture really saved you. The fact that the Fingers is large enough to make it impossible for mainland fires to spread onto the island was also significant. Crystal Lake tends to receive more rain due to geography, even if it did dry out and there were (small) fires there.
Quick question. @Redium At this stage what are the prospects of us founding a settlement down in the Hundred Isles? Do we have the population and manpower to do so? Or would it stretch us thin?
If you accept the Hundred Bands in, you would be okay as far as Kaspar could tell. He'd have to play a bit of a diplomatic game so that the Island Makers and South Lake fight each other instead of the People, but he thinks it's something he could do.
He also feels that the Northern Hinterlands aren't going to settle along the Great River as long as the People continue to trade with them. (Each turn you spend trading subtracts 1 from their 'want to settle' counter.)
Uhhh. @Redium What exactly does this entail specifically? I know what an ordeal is supposed to do mechanically, however I don't know what this ordeal would be in terms of the South Lake tribe.
Ordeal would be about celebrating the struggles of the Hundred Band and welcoming them into the People as fellow survivors. The focus is more on celebrating how the People (and the Hundred Bands, if they're accepted) overcame a trial. There's probably some synergy here with taking in the Hundred Bands and their Double Down trait now that I think about it.
That's interesting. Good to know the other river has been named now. As for the abrupt climate change it looks like we may be at the end of the Younger Dryas Period and thus the last glacial maximum, meaning that our neighbors up north might begin to see the Mammoth populations start to dwindle as their habitats start to become inhospitable to them.
It was actually just terrible climate rolls. You'd generally had quite good warm weather in recent turns so having bad climate rolls warped things over into a warm weather disaster. Forest fire is the biggest threat you can really face there. Drought is also possible, but it would have to be ridiculously severe in order to do significant damage to you. The Great and White Rivers are too big to meaningfully dry up and there's an enormous number of lakes and rivers in the area to keep everything supplied.
Front page still is not going to be updated today.
For example, a lot of pesant revolts in Europe believe that the king was on their side, if only they could make him listen. It was the corrupt nobility or insipid advisers that are the real cause of the problem.
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] Another test of the spirits. (Undergo Ordeal)
For better Assimilation! That, and we have Kaspar so let's take advantage of his godly skills to better improve ourselves.
Ordeal would be about celebrating the struggles of the Hundred Band and welcoming them into the People as fellow survivors. The focus is more on celebrating how the People (and the Hundred Bands, if they're accepted) overcame a trial. There's probably some synergy here with taking in the Hundred Bands and their Double Down trait now that I think about it.
This is straight from the QM's mouth guys. Considering the vast majority of us want to integrate the refugees, choosing the ordeal as a synergy option is probably going to help with that. With that being the case here is my vote:
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] Another test of the spirits. (Undergo Ordeal)
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] Another test of the spirits. (Undergo Ordeal)
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] Another test of the spirits. (Undergo Ordeal)
[X] [Refugees] "Embrace them as Brothers and Sisters. Divide them among the People's settlements." (-1 Stability)
[X] [Settlement] Another test of the spirits. (Undergo Ordeal)
The way your system works is that captives acquire Debt while they're being held captive. That Debt is the cost of feeding, clothing and housing them. They're forced to work just enough that whatever 'cost' is incurred by feeding them is offset by other labour in kind. Anything that they work over that limit becomes their property. If they become full members of the People, then they'll just be assigned to whatever is considered 'normal' duty rotation and only become Debtors if they start falling into Debt, as would any of the other People. Most of the captives are currently Debt neutral or, if they planned to collect some baubles to bring home after they were exchanged, Debt positive.
