Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

Simon_Jester · Feb 5, 2018

Rivenscryr said:
Did I not say exactly pretty much exactly this about the Quarians? And how knowing their fleet was safe would lead to them moving heaven and earth to bring their people home? And now we might not have the chance. Figures.

How surprised would you have been, if Admiral Malan had told us "my people are militarily exhausted, our fleets have taken a beating, and quite frankly I don't think they'll be able to muster the ships and energy to launch another offensive for three years."

Because that's the mirror image of "they'd eagerly try to break us out if they knew we were here." The answer was going to be one or the other, or somewhere in between.

If you would have been stunned to hear Malan say "quarians exhausted, no hope for an offensive," like 'oh my goodness this changes my view of the game setting' level stunned, then yes, you actually knew a true thing that most of us did not now.

If you would have been merely somewhat surprised to hear Malan say that... you suspected a true thing that most of us did not know.

If you would not have been surprised at all, then you didn't actually know what you thought you knew- it was a lucky guess that turned out correct.

Rivenscryr said:
These sound good to me. If we don't build up to the point when we can actually sustain operations in more than one cluster, and do what we can to keep the rescued fleet viable, then all the attention we just got was pretty much for naught.

The caveat is that there's a good point made against my plan in that it spends a LOT on the logistics reform, at a time when we're pretty busy overall.

Also, we can only swallow so many major projects at once. We're still wrapping up the last wave of major projects (Explorer Corps and medical reforms), we're forced into some big crash projects right this minute (making sure the quarians don't all starve or perish for lack of medical supplies), there may honestly not be resources to spare to begin a major logistics revamp this year.

Right now I'm thinking in terms of Plan Bodyshop myself, to tell the truth.

Decim · Feb 5, 2018

@PoptartProdigy, I have a write-in for you. Perhaps it can't make it on the docket this year, but I suspect that this is something Mira will seriously consider doing.

[ ] To the Other Side: Sentry Omega has a secondary relay. The Pheonix Massing also has a secondary relay. Given galactic geography, it's highly likely that the two are within range of each other. Assuming that the Terminus Alliance can hold the Massing, opening a relay connection could shortcut a safe passage to the wider Galaxy. On the other hand, activating Sentry Omega's secondary could lead to Hoc being on the front lines again.

Simon_Jester · Feb 5, 2018

Secondary relays have a range limitation of, oh, no more than a thousand light years. Phoenix Massing and Sentry Omega are close together in galactic terms, but the Milky Way is big and the distances involved could easily be several thousand light years.

I suspect we'd have to "tunnel" and find a chain of secondary relays between here and there, and such a chain may not even exist. If it does, I'm not sure what preconditions we'd have to meet in order to light it up.

Rivenscryr · Feb 5, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
How surprised would you have been, if Admiral Malan had told us "my people are militarily exhausted, our fleets have taken a beating, and quite frankly I don't think they'll be able to muster the ships and energy to launch another offensive for three years."

Honestly? Pretty damn surprised, not least because leaving your troops behind enemy lines like that, after someone else had already gone out on a limb to rescue them would cripple morale at home. It never sounds good to abandon your troops like that, especially if you know that if you don't do something you would effectively be condemning them to die, since they, unlike everyone else on Virmire, are dextros.

The caveat is that there's a good point made against my plan in that it spends a LOT on the logistics reform, at a time when we're pretty busy overall.

It's true that we do need to clear away some of those large projects. I'd like the logistics, since no matter when we start, they're going to three years to hammer out, but...

I'll have to think on it

PoptartProdigy · Feb 5, 2018

jacobk said:
Do we need the docks if we're already making the military outposts?

Not to fit the 3rd, although I suppose one could argue that you always need more.

WazugDaWierd said:
Poptart have you been watching TheXPGamers Edge of the Empires series?

Either way this gave me a chuckle.

I have not even seen that, but I'm pleased to amuse.

Simon_Jester said:
Okay, so just to be clear, if we skip a year on one of the ongoing projects, we lose one of the years we already have? So, say, if we don't do anything with the Explorer Corps this year, next year we'll find that they've dropped from 2/3 years to 1/3 years, with two years to go instead of one before they complete?

That makes holding off on the 'locked' options super unattractive.

I'm actually glad to hear that. It's not meant to be an attractive option. It's just that your Ministers heard the Admiral they just bled to save flatly inform them that he and his navy starve in two months. The Ministers are trotting out the desperate measures, because they think you need all of the options you can get your hands on. After all, there's no Ministry really capable of addressing the medical shortfall other than MotS, and the MotS is going into this already fully committed. One way or the other, a slot needs freeing. Maybe the EC can't be moved due to other priorities and Mira doesn't want to cancel it; thus, Durrahe is in the position of needing to find a slot, whereas he merely desperately wants to get the medical overhaul done before he dies of old age or stress.

Decim said:
@PoptartProdigy, I have a write-in for you. Perhaps it can't make it on the docket this year, but I suspect that this is something Mira will seriously consider doing.

[ ] To the Other Side: Sentry Omega has a secondary relay. The Pheonix Massing also has a secondary relay. Given galactic geography, it's highly likely that the two are within range of each other. Assuming that the Terminus Alliance can hold the Massing, opening a relay connection could shortcut a safe passage to the wider Galaxy. On the other hand, activating Sentry Omega's secondary could lead to Hoc being on the front lines again.

The way I currently model secondary relays is actually something I plan to rework, given an epiphany I recently had. My current model was born out of a perceived problem with the canon model, and now that I've resolved the problem to my satisfaction, I'll be reverting to the canon model in upcoming turns. Thus, that exact text won't work. But, the idea is certainly sound with some tweaks that soon will become apparent, and if you remind me next year, I'll definitely include a write-in to that effect.

Simon_Jester · Feb 6, 2018

Rivenscryr said:
Honestly? Pretty damn surprised, not least because leaving your troops behind enemy lines like that, after someone else had already gone out on a limb to rescue them would cripple morale at home. It never sounds good to abandon your troops like that, especially if you know that if you don't do something you would effectively be condemning them to die, since they, unlike everyone else on Virmire, are dextros.

To be fair, if you hear X is true, when you would be genuinely surprised to learn that X is not true, then you correctly predicted X with high enough confidence that it's a feather in your cap that you predicted it from the (relative dearth of) information available. My compliments.

uju32 · Feb 6, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
Our medical reforms aren't going to finish these years under any circumstances. They are an ongoing project.

True.
But the ongoing investment of Learning slots stops after 3 years, and we can then spend that slot of military research, or something similar.

Karugus said:
Either Salarian hubris is in full effect, or the Lystheni are fully aware this situation is not sustainable and are probably going to do something rash to change it. Possibly both.

Mostly the first I think.
The lystheni are extremely insular, from everything we've seen, and arrogant as fuck; a polity their size would usually think twice about being the first to breach a treaty that protects them from territorial encroachment by a comparatively massive neighbor.

Instead, they are the ones setting up illicit bases in the buffer zone.

While I don't think they're beyond, say, attempting to breed varren on some world as shock troops, or attempting to go full AI-singularity, they don't currently have the resources to pull it off. We know what it cost us, and we actually had the industry and population to work with.
Still need to keep an eye on them.

Especially given their apparent distress at us getting into contact with the Citadel.....

Rivenscryr said:
Did I not say exactly pretty much exactly this about the Quarians? And how knowing their fleet was safe would lead to them moving heaven and earth to bring their people home? And now we might not have the chance. Figures.

Assuming we sent Kurik.
He runs the blockade, ALL the blockades. He gets to Quarian/Terminus territory with his intel.
The Quarians believe him and resolve to send a relief fleet.They badger the Terminus into supporting them.

They are STILL going to have to build a replacement fleet for the fleet they lost, train officers and spacers, wrangle logistics for a navy that explicitly is not trained or equipped for extended operations outside friendly space. They are certainly not going to strip home defenses to launch offensives.
Three to five years minimum, just to prepare for that offensive, and to stock up on reserves; it takes us three years at our best to replace a raiding fleet.

And THEN they have to fight through Rachni forces to get here, with no guarantee of success.EDIT And in the meantime we're out a Hero.

I made the decision to vote the way I did with only knowledge of what was then stated.
Given what I know now, I would STILL vote that way.

jacobk · Feb 6, 2018

uju32 said:
Assuming we sent Kurik.
He runs the blockade, ALL the blockades. He gets to Quarian/Terminus territory with his intel.
The Quarians believe him and resolve to send a relief fleet.They badger the Terminus into supporting them.

They are STILL going to have to build a replacement fleet for the fleet they lost, train officers and spacers, wrangle logistics for a navy that explicitly is not trained or equipped for extended operations outside friendly space. They are certainly not going to strip home defenses to launch offensives.
Three to five years minimum, just to prepare for that offensive, and to stock up on reserves; it takes us three years at our best to replace a raiding fleet.

And THEN they have to fight through Rachni forces to get here, with no guarantee of success.EDIT And in the meantime we're out a Hero.

I made the decision to vote the way I did with only knowledge of what was then stated.
Given what I know now, I would STILL vote that way.

Also note that in all likelihood they are building that replacement fleet anyways. With a similar urgency, even, since they think it's their only available military force. If we figure out a way to get a messenger out in the next few years it should be a pretty similar outcome, in the end.

uju32 · Feb 6, 2018

Rivenscryr said:
Honestly? Pretty damn surprised, not least because leaving your troops behind enemy lines like that, after someone else had already gone out on a limb to rescue them would cripple morale at home. It never sounds good to abandon your troops like that, especially if you know that if you don't do something you would effectively be condemning them to die, since they, unlike everyone else on Virmire, are dextros.

1)Have you heard of the term "throwing good money after bad?"
Morale will not improve if you risk people and lose them too.
The British did not transfer the rest of their airforce to France after losing much of the air component of the BEF; they kept them at home.

2)A polity with the technological base to relieve them from a multi-dreadnought Rachni fleet has the technology to feed them.
As evidenced by the fact that it's a less than one year project, cooking up enough food for a couple hundred thousand people is only resource-intensive, not tecnnologically complicated. Genengineered yeasts and algae, vat-grown and processed.....it won't be cordon bleu, but they'll not die of starvation.

Medicines are likely to be rougher, especially if they lack the medical records for quarians, but that's a function of expertise. Virmire does not exactly have the best or the most doctors/pharmacists/biomedical specialists per capita.

@PoptartProdigy
Bosslady, a couple points
1)You forgot to update the status of the war bond repayment money we're saving at the end of Turn 15(should be 80k, not 64k).
Comes due at the end of next turn[Turn 17).

2)Do Military Outposts include ship production facilities, or just maintenance facilities?

jacobk said:
Also note that in all likelihood they are building that replacement fleet anyways. With a similar urgency, even, since they think it's their only available military force. If we figure out a way to get a messenger out in the next few years it should be a pretty similar outcome, in the end.

Of course they are; they'd have to be silly not to be straining to rebuild, assuming they have no ship reserves.
But that same 3-5 year window before a new offensive happens still holds true. And in the meantime we're out a Hero.

EDIT
3RWSF is their main offensive fleet.
I assume 1st and 2nd defend the Perseus Veil and Far Rim clusters respectively.

Chronic · Feb 6, 2018

I hate the military outposts option, it is actively sabotaging our war effort. Positioning fleets anywhere they need to manually FTL back to a relay system means we are effectively throwing them away for the purpose of defense. If the Rachni attack any fleet in a military outpost away from the network will only be able to come to help once Virmire is already being bombarded from orbit. I'd rather take the hit to trade from requisitioning civilian dockspace.

Renars · Feb 6, 2018

See! This is why we needed to send EC! Now All that steam is gone and Rachni get a breather and time to adapt. Sad but "risky, let's not send him". ehhh, your choice though.

I think Moratorium ended, so Might as well put out a plan:

[ ] Plan Choices we Make
- [ ] Military Outposts: Time: 1 year. Cost: 40,000 credits. Chance of Success: 75%.
- [ ] Logistics II Time: 3 years. Cost: 57,000 credits. Chance of Success: 80%.
- [ ] PR, Always PR: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 68%. Cost: 15,000 credits.
- [ ] Investigate the Secessionists: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 72%. Cost: 15,000 credits.
- [ ] Rebalance Food Production: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 80%. Cost: 30,000 credits.
- [ ] Economic Review: Time: 3 years. Chance of Success: 60%. Cost: 55,000 credits.
- [ ] Digging For Receipts: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 45%. Cost: 32,000 credits.
- [ ] Databanks: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 70%. Cost: 25,000 credits.
- [ ] Dispense the Fun Coupons Time: 5 3 years locked, 10 8 years to effect. Chance of Success: 80%. Cost: -50,000 yearly income until effect.
- [ ] Explorer Corps Time: 3 years. Chance of Success: 60%. Cost: 40,000 credits, -5,000 yearly income.
- [ ] Personal Attention: Military Outposts
- [ ] Personal Attention: Investigate the Secessionists
- [ ] Commit Hero Unit: Captain Jamar Kurik - Databanks

<No logistics no survival ; and Fully renewed 3rd RWF is good>
<PR, because we had REASONS to do so, might as well explain ; still HATE Lystheni, want to do something with them, but..... >
<Always money problems; and food>
<so what happened with Kurik's probe??>
<Finish what we started!!!>

uju32 · Feb 6, 2018

Chronic said:
I hate the military outposts option,

Given that our military is explicitly presenting the option as a means to help accomodate the quarians, you can assume they aren't putting anything out of reinforcement range.

Renars said:
I think Moratorium ended, so Might as well put out a plan:

Moratorium ends around 8.40am tomorrow morning; 12 hours from posting.

Tabron89 · Feb 6, 2018

Chronic said:
I hate the military outposts option, it is actively sabotaging our war effort. Positioning fleets anywhere they need to manually FTL back to a relay system means we are effectively throwing them away for the purpose of defense. If the Rachni attack any fleet in a military outpost away from the network will only be able to come to help once Virmire is already being bombarded from orbit. I'd rather take the hit to trade from requisitioning civilian dockspace.

It's less about fleets and more about our own patrols of our own sectors.

All of our ships basically have to come back to Virmire to get repairs and supplies, which means bottlenecks.

The fact that we can offload the 3rd ROR Fleet is just icing.

Chronic · Feb 6, 2018

uju32 said:
Given that our military is explicitly presenting the option as a means to help accomodate the quarians, you can assume they aren't putting anything out of reinforcement range.

The nearest military system we can build an outpost on is SO 13. This means building docking space for 3rd war fleet (or an equivalent amount of our own ships) in a system away from the relay network. Canon Citadel drives make 15 light years a day, ours are probably significantly worse. Let's be generous and assume that SO13, (despite not being the closest star to Hoc by a long shot) is only as far away from us as Alpha Centauri is from Sol, meaning 4 light years. This would mean our reinforcements, assuming they travel at canon Citadel speeds (which they don't) would need 6 and a half hour to get to Virmire. That is FAR too long to counter a Rachni assault.

Tabron89 said:
It's less about fleets and more about our own patrols of our own sectors.

All of our ships basically have to come back to Virmire to get repairs and supplies, which means bottlenecks.

The fact that we can offload the 3rd ROR Fleet is just icing.

We don't need to patrol our own sectors just yet. There is nothing there except the Faux-Salarians and those won't dare attack us while we are still crushingly superior to them and keep them safe from the Rachni. This ain't Star Trek where there is a space monster hidden behind every second planet. Sure, it will become necessary later on to control our sector against pirates and possible Lystheni fuckery, but right now a military outpost only takes forces away from where we need them most. On the relays. Defending against Rachni.

Shaseyu · Feb 6, 2018

I mostly support []Plan Bodyshop, but disagree with 'PR, always PR' action (I do support our Independence, after all).
Sadly, 'Knowledge Exchange', the only viable alternative to it, has too little chance of success to my liking.

uju32 · Feb 6, 2018

Chronic said:
The nearest military system we can build an outpost on is SO 13.

Those maps are not to scale, you know? We don't know how far it is by FTL.
It took 30 minutes for a shuttle to get from Attican Beta to Virmire, and full up ships are faster.
If it's being put up as an option, our IC officers think it's workable.

Chronic said:
We don't need to patrol our own sectors just yet.

We are already patrolling our own sectors.
We have been ever since we kicked the Rachni out of Attican Beta.
One of the jobs of the 1st Raiding Fleet when not out burning systems is to patrol our systems; from the front page:

1st Raiding Fleet (Commanding Officer Fleet Admiral Beshkar; flagship Battlecruiser VWS Karimar). Based out of Attican Beta; Patrolling Attican Beta and Kepler Verge Clusters. At 60% strength.

jacobk · Feb 6, 2018

Chronic said:
The nearest military system we can build an outpost on is SO 13. This means building docking space for 3rd war fleet (or an equivalent amount of our own ships) in a system away from the relay network. Canon Citadel drives make 15 light years a day, ours are probably significantly worse. Let's be generous and assume that SO13, (despite not being the closest star to Hoc by a long shot) is only as far away from us as Alpha Centauri is from Sol, meaning 4 light years. This would mean our reinforcements, assuming they travel at canon Citadel speeds (which they don't) would need 6 and a half hour to get to Virmire. That is FAR too long to counter a Rachni assault.

These are repair bays and drydocks. Most of the fleet will not be in them most of the time. It just happens that the entire Quarian fleet needs repairing so it will be docked for a while.

Chronic · Feb 6, 2018

uju32 said:
It took 30 minutes for a shuttle to get from Attican Beta to Virmire, and full up ships are faster.

Because Attican Beta and Hoc are both Relay systems? A shuttle would just need to FTL from whereever it was stationed in Attican Betas relay system to the local relay, then from the relay in Hoc to Virmire. That is all in-system travel. Can't be compared to traveling between star systems manually.

uju32 said:
If it's being put up as an option, our IC officers think it's workable.

Yeah it is workable. Defending our relays without 3rd battle fleet is workable, we did so for years. I just think that whatever benefits the military outpost offers are far less important than having all our ships sitting on relays so we can react at a moments notice.

uju32 said:
We are already patrolling our own sectors.
We have been ever since we kicked the Rachni out of Attican Beta.
One of the jobs of the 1st Raiding Fleet when not out burning systems is to patrol our systems; from the front page:

Those are the Attican Beta and Kepler Verge Clusters. We need to patrol them to keep the local Rachni outposts from getting into space again. There are no Rachni outposts in Sentry Omega, and the Military Outposts option is specifically about Sentry Omega. We don't need to patrol that cluster, it is a useless drain on our fleet power.

Camry · Feb 6, 2018

[X] Plan Explorer Alternative
- [X] Military Outposts: Time: 1 year. Cost: 40,000 credits. Chance of Success: 75%.
- [X] Take Over the Explorer Corps: Time: 1 year. Cost: 20,000. Chance of Success: 85%.
- [X] Knowledge Exchange: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 35%. Cost: 35,000 credits.
- [X] Investigate the Secessionists: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 72%. Cost: 15,000 credits.
- [X] Rebalance Food Production: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 80%. Cost: 30,000 credits.
- [X] Build More Docks: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 80%. Cost: 50,000 credits.
- [X] Digging For Receipts: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 45%. Cost: 32,000 credits.
- [X] Databanks: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 70%. Cost: 25,000 credits.
- [X] Personal Attention: Knowledge Exchange.
- [X] Take a Break: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 50%. Cost: Free.
- [X] Commit Hero Unit: Captain Jamar Kurik - Databanks.

Total: 40000+20000+35000+15000+30000+50000+32000+25000=247000

LunarTinker · Feb 6, 2018

[]Plan Bodyshop

As is becoming norm in this quest uju32 has the most compelling arguments and with that gets my vote.

uju32 · Feb 6, 2018

Chronic said:
Because Attican Beta and Hoc are both Relay systems? A shuttle would just need to FTL from whereever it was stationed in Attican Beta to the local relay, then from the relay in Hoc to Virmire. That is all in-system travel.

Shuttles are FTL in Mass Effect regardless. As in, ME drive, not just Relay capable.
And in system travel can be deceptive when you consider how big systems get.

For example, our Earth system is 1.87 light years radius.
It's diameter at 3.74 light years is 85% of the distance to our closest stellar neighbor Alpha Centauri.

Chronic said:
Yeah it is workable. Defending our relays without 3rd battle fleet is workable, we did so for years. I just think that whatever benefits the military outpost offers are far less important than having all our ships sitting on relays so we can react at a moments notice.

And you are wrong about this.
IC our advisers would not be giving us trap choices; its THEIR necks on the line out there, in those ships. OOC neither is our GM.
There is a reason why the Virmire docks option is called a patch instead of a full solution.

Chronic said:
Those are the Attican Beta and Kepler Verge Clusters. We need to patrol them to keep the local Rachni outposts from getting into space again. There are no outposts in Sentry Omega, and the Military Outposts option is specifically about Sentry Omega. We don't need to patrol that cluster, it is a useless drain on our fleet power.

Yes.
Which means a good chunk of our ships are regularly a significant distance away from Hercules System in Attican Beta, to the point where when we forecasted an attack, we had to take special precautions to keep the ships available. That's no different from having ships away in Sentry Omega.
Seriously, you're freaking out to no good cause.

EDIT

Camry said:
[] Plan Explorer Alternative

LunarTinker said:
[]Plan Bodyshop
As is becoming norm in this quest uju32 has the most compelling arguments and with that gets my vote.

Guys, voting starts at 8.40 AM.

LunarTinker · Feb 6, 2018

uju32 said:
Guys, voting starts at 8.40 AM.

dammit what timezone are you guys in? sigh i will just wait then till you guys vote.

Angelform · Feb 6, 2018

Alfa290 said:
[ ] Plan Recover and Expand

This is all about making sure the Quarians are in the best possible shape to help hold the line in AB if not participate in the Great Northern War. We should also seize the opportunity to expand our shipbuilding and basing because now we have the Rachni's attention.

Good plan. Has the Independence option that we absolutely must take.
Wish we hade something for Intrigue to do beside backstab our allies.

ctulhuslp · Feb 6, 2018

Mrmmr.

I am against taking Independence option until we properly investigate those who started it.
I don't trust any of the starters and I don't trust Assembly.

If we investigate and find out they were genuine believers and not, say, corporate plan to fuck with us, we can go ahead.

Speaking of corporate plans: who is funding Secessionist Party?

jacobk · Feb 6, 2018

Angelform said:
Good plan. Has the Independence option that we absolutely must take.
Wish we hade something for Intrigue to do beside backstab our allies.

[] Write in option: Dispatch a team of crack commandos to switch out the Lystheni coffee stockpile with decaf.

Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

On again, off again lurker.

Lawful Evil