The guy who is is currently basically running the show at one point insisted that the Queen of Mirrors just be a cute girl who doesn't have any friends because of she has low self-esteem (she looks in the mirror, see, and doesn't like what she sees), and hates the world because of this, but desperately wants friends.
....

Please tell me your joking...

I've never actually played a game of Princess (Genius the Transgression was always my favorite) but I thought part of the problem with the three 'shadow' queens was that they were meant to be the main source of 'grey' in the setting, all their powers potent but likely to drive you nuts. The Storm Queen was angry and will burn away your emotions to forge you into a perfect weapon, the queen of Tears will make you a Hard Girl doing Hard Decisions with a Hard Staff, and the Queen of Mirrors has turned her entire court into a magical girl deathmatch to be her heir....

How is that meant to be a friendless.... what...
 
That said, if you're gonna have a pure-evil entity/object/faction, you can't have them be the only source of conflict, since it doesn't really fit like the WoD themes.
You seem to be ignoring the Twilight Courts, Mirrors are enemies to anyone who disagrees that they deserve to rule everything, Storms are "You are with us or you are an enemy", and Tears are slowly soul-fucking the whole world to maintain Alhambra.
And Princesses that have political or religious differences with the PCs.
And the mundane world in general.(a corrupt official can be big trouble)
 
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I really like the fact that the third "grey antagonist bloc" isn't actually a bloc at all like you would expect, because each and every one of them HATES all the others.

It leads into them being the most insidious villain/anti-hero power, as they instead diffuse into regular Magical Girl society, and think of themselves as "Radiants" like the mainstream girls, and unwittingly poison and tear apart the good guy bloc from the inside. Even some of the Radiants don't think these girls or their queen is an enemy!

It's brilliant.

Naturally, the Queen of Mirrors being an emo who just wants a friend is lame as hell. So is always appearing to be a little girl; the contradictory lines that claim she appears as your silvery twin is much more interesting, and fits better with the idea that she's trying to flatter you into thinking YOU are The One True Heir.
 
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I really like the fact that the third "grey antagonist bloc" isn't actually a bloc at all like you would expect, because each and every one of them HATES all the others.

It leads into them being the most insidious villain/anti-hero power, as they instead diffuse into regular Magical Girl society, present and think of themselves as "Radiants" like the mainstream, and unwittingly poison and tear apart the good guy bloc from the inside. Even some of the Radiants don't think these girls or their queen is an enemy!

It's brilliant.

Thank you.

The arguments over the Queen of Mirrors might have been one of the things which basically led to me burning out [1] from the project [2], but I'm glad that I managed to push through the seer-queen who lives at the end of the rainbow and where the reflections of two mirrors stop, constantly scrying the future to try to find the True Heir and constantly reinterpreting her vague prophecies whenever the latest 'True Heir' fails to show that they were never the Heir. The Queen of Mirrors in this version - well, if Tears' flaw is her refusal to let go of the past (hence why Lacrima is also associated with ghosts) and Storms' is her self-righteous rage, Mirrors' personally has the flaw that she has sacrificed her own agency, that she's so sure that she'll save the world by finding the True Heir that... uh, she's doing nothing to save the world by actually fucking saving the world.

(Mind you, by the time I'd left I'd basically played a major role if not single-handedly reshaped all the antagonist factions, which may be some of the reason I feel Princess has a bit of the Werewolf problem - namely, that the Pure Tribes are more detailed than the Forsaken Tribes.)

...

In fact, what the fuck. I'll take any questions on original design intent for the things I was behind in this thread.

For example, one of the things about Storms is that conceptually she represents the dark side of modernism and industrial warfare, and how that's one of the "dark fates" of the idealised vision of the past which the Radiant largely associate with. That's why her main fighters are the Storms cults - they're a metaphor for conscription and the democratisation of violence, so Storms sends normal men and women into the meat-grinder rather than leaving it as a preserve of a 'warrior elite' of Princesses. That's why "collateral damage" and "acceptable losses" are an axiom of her fighting style. Likewise, there's technomythology hidden within her forces - technology dressed up as myth, because of that symbolic link to moderism. The Goalenu are golems, but they're also Terminators and war machines run by damaged uploads which only think of violence (ie, Tattered Ghosts), and the Goalenu grafts are cybernetics. The dreams of the Stormwracked are a metaphor for the internet and the way it enables insurgent groups to communicate beyond traditional boundaries - and they're also a cyberpunk-esque source of "downloaded knowledge" by the way the Storm-wracked train in their dreams. That entire theme is designed to contrast against the Alhambran dark side of excess traditionalism and refusal to change in response to the changes in the world - hence why Alhambra is culturally static, holding onto a past which has been eroded down by endless tears.

[1] The person who I was arguing with was the one who kept on trying to make the Queens personable and 'cool people' you could hang out with, rather than half-mad distant exemplars who are creatures of memory and dream logic and echoes, bodhisattvas who fundamentally when you get down to it cannot solve your problems for.

[2] That, and having to constantly explain things like "oh my god, no, statting out the Queens is dumb" and "no, stop writing unnecessary charms. No, just because it's not being published doesn't mean you should be writing lots of niche Charms."

Queens are power-stat 10 and can't leave the Dreamworld.
Also, anyone who actually manages to get to that level has to fight Archmages, the God Machine, and who knows what else to make sure that the Nobility aren't retconned out of existence.

No, no, you see, that's the thing which I could not hammer in.

None of that matters. Like, seriously, Archmages mean jack shit to Princess [3]. The God Machine means even less, because the GMC turns a cool recurring idea into something which is lame. Tier 4 stuff means fuck-all to Princess, which is a Tier 1 game at heart. Wordcount spent on justifying Tier 4 stuff is basically wasted wordcount which ruins the thematic focus and so should be cut out.

Hence why I basically tried to make the Radiant Queens into a mix of distant exemplars, ancestors at the centre of ancestor cults, and not people you see casually (because in some ways, they're not people at all). You don't casually go to see the Radiant Queens. You go because you're having doubts, because you're trying to increase your Invocation and wish to study, you quest there to find a new Bestowment.

You don't go chill with the Queen of Diamonds who's wearing a MLP t-shirt, because she's a half-mad exemplar of the idea that "The World Can Be Made Better Through Knowledge". She dwells at the heart of a great diamond clock which floats above a great snow-covered mountain in the Dreamlands, and to get to her you must climb the mountain - and only by climbing the mountain and showing the understanding required to outwit the guardians and solve the puzzles do you realise that yes, you accomplished this climb through your knowledge and your learning and that you do belong as a Diamond.

(and then the next time you go back, the floating clock rests over an ocean, and only through your friendship and teaching others to survive do you realise that this was your problem all along, and that you weren't treating your friends as equals)

That's the role the Radiant Queens have to play, in my opinion. They're vision quests, they're dream lessons, they're ideas more than people in a lot of ways. They can't save the world. But they can help you learn lessons which will help you save your little corner of the world. And with them, you'll earn their gifts, unlike Mirrors who hands you things which have no more insight than your own reflection.

[3] Unless you choose to use the plot hint I dropped in a few places that the Kingdom was a pre-Fall kingdom which was a rival to the Awakened City, which stayed loyal to the Old Gods and did not have the hubris to try to break reality, but closed in on itself and exulted in its self-righteousness - and when the Darkness was born as reality warped, it was caught unaware.
 
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Okay this is a really cool idea. HOW dead is this? Or rather, how far did this get before dying? Do people think it's finishable?
Really, really, really dead*.

How far? pretty far actually. Enemy factions, special rules, the Morality stat, and a bunch of other stuff that I need to reread.

Don't know about other people but me myself? Yeah, Definitely. Hell maybe we can revive it here.

*The Irony in this is amazing.
 
Thank you.

The arguments over the Queen of Mirrors might have been one of the things which basically led to me burning out [1] from the project [2], but I'm glad that I managed to push through the seer-queen who lives at the end of the rainbow and where the reflections of two mirrors stop, constantly scrying the future to try to find the True Heir and constantly reinterpreting her vague prophecies whenever the latest 'True Heir' fails to show that they were never the Heir. The Queen of Mirrors in this version - well, if Tears' flaw is her refusal to let go of the past (hence why Lacrima is also associated with ghosts) and Storms' is her self-righteous rage, Mirrors' personally has the flaw that she has sacrificed her own agency, that she's so sure that she'll save the world by finding the True Heir that... uh, she's doing nothing to save the world by actually fucking saving the world.

(Mind you, by the time I'd left I'd basically played a major role if not single-handedly reshaped all the antagonist factions, which may be some of the reason I feel Princess has a bit of the Werewolf problem - namely, that the Pure Tribes are more detailed than the Forsaken Tribes.)

...

In fact, what the fuck. I'll take any questions on original design intent for the things I was behind in this thread.

For example, one of the things about Storms is that conceptually she represents the dark side of modernism and industrial warfare, and how that's one of the "dark fates" of the idealised vision of the past which the Radiant largely associate with. That's why her main fighters are the Storms cults - they're a metaphor for conscription and the democratisation of violence, so Storms sends normal men and women into the meat-grinder rather than leaving it as a preserve of a 'warrior elite' of Princesses. That's why "collateral damage" and "acceptable losses" are an axiom of her fighting style. Likewise, there's technomythology hidden within her forces - technology dressed up as myth, because of that symbolic link to moderism. The Goalenu are golems, but they're also Terminators and war machines run by damaged uploads which only think of violence (ie, Tattered Ghosts), and the Goalenu grafts are cybernetics. The dreams of the Stormwracked are a metaphor for the internet and the way it enables insurgent groups to communicate beyond traditional boundaries - and they're also a cyberpunk-esque source of "downloaded knowledge" by the way the Storm-wracked train in their dreams. That entire theme is designed to contrast against the Alhambran dark side of excess traditionalism and refusal to change in response to the changes in the world - hence why Alhambra is culturally static, holding onto a past which has been eroded down by endless tears.

[1] The person who I was arguing with was the one who kept on trying to make the Queens personable and 'cool people' you could hang out with, rather than half-mad distant exemplars who are creatures of memory and dream logic and echoes, bodhisattvas who fundamentally when you get down to it cannot solve your problems for.

[2] That, and having to constantly explain things like "oh my god, no, statting out the Queens is dumb" and "no, stop writing unnecessary charms. No, just because it's not being published doesn't mean you should be writing lots of niche Charms."

Honest question, do you feel that the popularity of anime like Puella Magi had a negative or positive effect on the project?
 
The arguments over the Queen of Mirrors might have been one of the things which basically led to me burning out [1] from the project [2], but I'm glad that I managed to push through the seer-queen who lives at the end of the rainbow and where the reflections of two mirrors stop, constantly scrying the future to try to find the True Heir and constantly reinterpreting her vague prophecies whenever the latest 'True Heir' fails to show that they were never the Heir. The Queen of Mirrors in this version - well, if Tears' flaw is her refusal to let go of the past (hence why Lacrima is also associated with ghosts) and Storms' is her self-righteous rage, Mirrors' personally has the flaw that she has sacrificed her own agency, that she's so sure that she'll save the world by finding the True Heir that... uh, she's doing nothing to save the world by actually fucking saving the world.

(Mind you, by the time I'd left I'd basically played a major role if not single-handedly reshaped all the antagonist factions, which may be some of the reason I feel Princess has a bit of the Werewolf problem - namely, that the Pure Tribes are more detailed than the Forsaken Tribes.)

Ah interesting!

I hadn't realised that the queen of Mirrors actually was looking for a true Heir. I'd always thought it was something that she told her Princesses so that they'd do the whole magical girl cage match thingy (I"M THE TRUE HEIR, no I AM) for purposes of her own, which was part of the reason no one could physically meet her (not sure if thats in whatever version everyone else had). Not sure for what purposes really, since the whole Alhambra thing already does the 'harvesting energy to stay alive' part. But yeah, never struck me that she herself was looking for the heir, merely something she told her followers.

Also, one part of the project I loved was how the various courts saw the different splats.

Especially the Spades (I think) on Geniuses "Can I be the Beautiful Lab assistant?".

For some reason that always made me want to run a crossover game.
 
Honest question, do you feel that the popularity of anime like Puella Magi had a negative or positive effect on the project?

Honestly, I think one of the main influences was certain people digging in their feet and trying harder to make it not like PMMM. Which was a problem - although of course I would say that, because I was the lead figure in the "the WoD's Magical Girls" school of thought which means that it's a WoD game at core.

The Dethroned were basically a handy thing to stick in because I detested the "Auto-suicide at Belief 0" thing which existed before. Which was both boring and, to be blunt, an easy way out, because it's really hard to hit Morality 0 in most WoD games. You have to be an utter bastard to do so. And draugr, Zi'ir, the Mad... well, there's a pretty good tradition of becoming monsters at Morality 0.

So Witches were a pretty good model for that.

Ah interesting!

I hadn't realised that the queen of Mirrors actually was looking for a true Heir. I'd always thought it was something that she told her Princesses so that they'd do the whole magical girl cage match thingy (I"M THE TRUE HEIR, no I AM) for purposes of her own, which was part of the reason no one could physically meet her (not sure if thats in whatever version everyone else had). Not sure for what purposes really, since the whole Alhambra thing already does the 'harvesting energy to stay alive' part. But yeah, never struck me that she herself was looking for the heir, merely something she told her followers.

That's the tragedy I tried (and apparently failed) to get in at the heart of it.

She's trying to help. She really is.

Just like all the other Twilight Queens. The Queen of Tears really does believe that the only true civilised place is the Kingdom, and if Alhambra, the last, calcified remnant of the Kingdom falls, civilisation will fall and all will be consumed by Darkness. The Queen of Storms does believe that the only way to destroy the Darkness is to burn it out, and so she will burn the world to save the world. And Mirrors? Her prophecies tell her that there's a True Heir out there will who restore it and make everything better. So she searches, finding girls who match the signs, and giving them the the tools they need to fulfil their destiny, casting their personal auguries, letting them find their own path (which leads them into conflict with each other).

And she can't stop. If she stops, the True Heir will never be found. The world won't be saved. She's the only one who can find the person who saves the world.

Because if she stops, all of it will have been for nothing.
 
Thank you.

I also love the Court of Tears as an antagonist force. Just reading about them makes me start envisioning ways to assault the Last Province and force them to start evacuating themselves (and anything not nailed down) to Earth.

The lovely bit is that Lacrima is specialized to repel any such assault, and the Queen of Tears is almost a living caricature which may no longer be CAPABLE of letting go of the past. (Presumably like the Ghost Princesses.)

It's a really big challenge that can serve as the goal of various different campaigns, each attempting a different plot device and method. The fact that the Princesses of Tears have spies in the Radiant Courts to watch out for exactly such plots just adds to the possibilities of the challenge.

Also, their violent rejection of any similarity to vampires is exquisite.


The Court of Storms doesn't grab me as much as the other two Twilight Courts, but I haven't read everything very thoroughly, so maybe I missed something? I just get the sense that they're hand-in-hand with Hunters as a vigilante, modern, urban warfare milita. On top of that, I keep seeing them in a palette of greens, greys, kevlar, barbed wire and guns.

Great anti-heroes, but they clash with the Magical Girl "look". Even the darkest magical girl doesn't dress like Urban Commando or use an assault rifle. But it definitely fits with how much the Furies REJECT about being a magical girl; beauty is as useless to them as mercy.

(Reading down, this seems to be very much your intent. Kudos.)


Mind you, by the time I'd left I'd basically played a major role if not single-handedly reshaped all the antagonist factions, which may be some of the reason I feel Princess has a bit of the Werewolf problem - namely, that the Pure Tribes are more detailed than the Forsaken Tribes.
I can see that as a valid concern, but I wouldn't want any less detail on the Twilight Courts.

Is there any way to provide more pertinent details for the Radiant Courts?

Perhaps some kind of Z-splat that focuses on a particular aspect of a Radiant Court?


[1] The person who I was arguing with was the one who kept on trying to make the Queens personable and 'cool people' you could hang out with, rather than half-mad distant exemplars who are creatures of memory and dream logic and echoes, bodhisattvas who fundamentally when you get down to it cannot solve your problems for.

[2] That, and having to constantly explain things like "oh my god, no, statting out the Queens is dumb" and "no, stop writing unnecessary charms. No, just because it's not being published doesn't mean you should be writing lots of niche Charms."
I'm totally with you on this.


Over on RPG.net, I'm told that each Calling is supposed to have only ONE affinity for a branch of Charms, with Graces having Connect, Seekers having Learn, and Troubadours having Inspire. (All of which makes perfect sense.) I assume that Champions have Fight or Perfect, and Menders have Restore.

Is this part of your original idea, and was there a way to gain or choose additional affinities?
 
That's the tragedy I tried (and apparently failed) to get in at the heart of it.

She's trying to help. She really is.

Not sure if you had as much to do with the five Radiant, but I figure I'll ask here anyway. From what your saying and my own personal reading of the script, it almost seems like a deliberate contrast between the Radiant and Twilight Queens. The Radiant act more as ... maybe not obstacles so to speak but 'lessons' where you visit them and through the trials it takes to get an audience discover that the solution you needed was within your own power all along. With each visit providing a potential solution to your issue, and while the Queens themselves won't directly take to the field, they are always ready with a new such lesson for the Princesses who take the time to seek them out (and depending on which queen you might choose to visit, the revealed 'answer' will be different.

Meanwhile the Twilight Queens are more likely to intervene directly in a matter... and at the same time its potentially the worst possible thing to happen as each will attempt to solve it in a manner that suits their various view points (Storms might send forces to burn out an infestation and cause collateral damage where a princess might have been able to use diplomacy, Tears will do the dirty deed then replenish the energy used from the Surrounding Populace and Mirrors will cast an Augury and claim a certain method will prove which of you and five rivals might be the true heir). Their powers will give you the ablitiy to handle things that a normal Raidiant seemingly couldn't... but at the same time your more likely to ignore the solutions that would come from following one of the five courts (Rather then training the Townsfolk, a Mirror confronts the monster alone and gets all of them slaughtered when she fails).

Was that the 'intent'?
 
I hadn't realised that the queen of Mirrors actually was looking for a true Heir. I'd always thought it was something that she told her Princesses so that they'd do the whole magical girl cage match thingy (I"M THE TRUE HEIR, no I AM) for purposes of her own
I also thought that was a valid interpretation, and would be totally okay with any Storyteller than ran with it instead of the "desperately trying to help in all the wrong ways" one, though I think EarthScorpion's idea is the better and more thematically consistent default.


Oh, another thing I love about Specchio is how it allows you to deconstruct the Nanohas and Usagis and other messianic magical girls out there. Not that it claims those heroines are best translated as Heirs, oh no. But that anyone who sets out to be like those heroines just for the glory of being the messiah would leap at Specchio's awful powers and attempt to justify their selfish evil as righteousness and proper due.

Nanoha didn't use the Befriend Charm to befriend Fate. She did by constantly trying to connect with Fate until she won the other girl's trust, especially by being just as kind and considerate after beating Fate as she was when Fate beat her.

But someone of the right mindset for Specchio will only focus on the surface spectacle of "beating someone until they agree you were right all along". Just as someone focusing on the spectacle of "all of your powers combined" will learn and use the Specchio Charm that drains energy and Willpower from her followers.

It's deliciously insidious and hypocritical, just like the Court of Tears. Perfect.


Also, one part of the project I loved was how the various courts saw the different splats.

Especially the Spades (I think) on Geniuses "Can I be the Beautiful Lab assistant?".

For some reason that always made me want to run a crossover game.
Yeah, they had some neat perspectives.
 
Ahem. Moving back into canon:

Really exited about the fact that what was once the GMC is now 2nd Edition. Because in retrospect, the 1E was kinda shot in the leg in the beginning and had to heal with a limp. Morality not the least of systems, and especially the restrictive, reductive, and confusing Seven Virtues/Vices.

(Oh hi, I'm one of the people who sings praises).

Thing is, I realized long before the Chronicles became the Updates was that nWoD's problem was that it wasn't being published at the same time with the 20th cWoD. Too busy trying to appeal to the fans of the classic and attract new ones at the same time.

Now that the old is back in business, it's free to be its own thing.

One of the many good things Onyx Path does is Open Development blogs, where they show exactly what they want to put into the book and ask if the replies like the changes. So, this also means we can talk about the new versions of Werewolf and Mage, too.

Here's the tag for Werewolf, and here's the one for Mage.
 
Indeed. To me the thing that really hurt the NWoD in the early days was that CWoD had literally just come to an end and they were trying to get away from it while still clinging to it. While I did pick up the rulebooks of VtR, WtF and MtAw when they came out I struggled to really get into them and it turned me off the NWoD for a long time. But as time went on and they really explored the universe it got more interesting to me. In fact some of my absolute favorite books across the NWoD are the books that take the setting, break it apart and put it back together in different ways.

Though I have to admit that I am a CWoD fanboy and while I do appreciate plenty the NWoD's material my heart belongs to the CWoD.
 
Thank you.

I also love the Court of Tears as an antagonist force. Just reading about them makes me start envisioning ways to assault the Last Province and force them to start evacuating themselves (and anything not nailed down) to Earth.

Alhambra is another thing I'm very proud of. They're a 'Dark Kingdom' in classic genre terms, but the thing I wanted to do was specifically make them into a human, working society. They're not demons or monsters - they're just people. People living in a society which is this static, antiquated leech on the world, but that's not their fault. If Storms is modernism, Tears is imperialism.

And since they're just people, killing Alhambrans means you're leaving behind widows, widowers, orphans. It's there to reinforce the difference between Alhambra and the Darkness - killing a darkspawn is ridding the world of a malignant monster. Killing an Alhambran is... killing another human being.

(The Alhambrans tend to send people with families on their missions, because that reduces the chance that they'll defect because they'd have to abandon their families to do so)

One of the little temptations for a slightly tarnished Radiant Princess is to tell Storms about the locations of Alhambran Outposts they find. After all, that way you're not killing them yourself, right? And even if you know that'll result in fanatics attacking the place, burning them down, and shooting everyone they find (and possibly torturing anyone they take alive)... well, you don't have to see it happen yourself, right? And you're doing it to stop them stealing Light and ruining the world!

I'm really quite fond of how Storms and Tears play off against each other like this, and just like how you can get Storms' help to take down an Alhambran Outpost, so can you earn boons and help from Alhambra by warning them about the dangerous terrorist maniacs who'll be gunning for them.

I can see that as a valid concern, but I wouldn't want any less detail on the Twilight Courts.

Is there any way to provide more pertinent details for the Radiant Courts?

Perhaps some kind of Z-splat that focuses on a particular aspect of a Radiant Court?

Honestly, the way I personally resolve this is by making the Courts less important for the Radiant. The Radiant Queens are more akin to a pantheon of 'ancestor spirits' for the Radiant - so don't treat Diamonds as being equivalent to the Alhambrans. Treat the Radiant as being equivalent to the Alhambrans. The Radiant don't care as much if you feel you personally associate more with Diamonds or Hearts or Swords - which is how, among other things, there are Princesses who see no problem with following Mirrors as well as the Radiant Queens, or who view Storms as the bloody-handed 'war god' of the Radiant.

I feel there's quite a bit of "nWoD five-by-five holdover" in how the Radiant get treated, and I really prefer to see the Radiant Queens as being treated more like Promethean Transmutions than Mage Orders or Vampire Covenants.

One of the big arguments was with people who didn't agree with my idea that a well-balanced Princess should be buying multiple Invocations, and that normal, healthy personalities aren't too devoted to a single Queen. As far as I'm concerned, Radiant Princesses (or Princes - I'm totally behind there being plenty of male Enlightened, but for genre reasons the pronouns default to feminine in the text - hence why a lot of stuff I wrote talks about 'the Enlightened' and 'Nobles' rather than 'Princesses') should at the very least have a primary and secondary Invocation which together express more nuance about your perspective. For example, Diamonds-primary Hearts-secondary indicates that you think that care should be taken with new knowledge, and that it's important to not lose the good things about the past.

Not sure if you had as much to do with the five Radiant, but I figure I'll ask here anyway. From what your saying and my own personal reading of the script, it almost seems like a deliberate contrast between the Radiant and Twilight Queens. The Radiant act more as ... maybe not obstacles so to speak but 'lessons' where you visit them and through the trials it takes to get an audience discover that the solution you needed was within your own power all along. With each visit providing a potential solution to your issue, and while the Queens themselves won't directly take to the field, they are always ready with a new such lesson for the Princesses who take the time to seek them out (and depending on which queen you might choose to visit, the revealed 'answer' will be different.

Well, it's not so much that they "don't intervene" as they can't. If you put together certain implications about the Dreamlands and the Radiant Queens and the nature of Invocations, the Radiant Queens have lost a lot of their humanity to the Dreamlands. They may well be coalescences of the exemplars of the Invocations, who became these somewhat formless living Invocations.

The thing is, because they're the "good guys" (and because the people who made them up were, on the whole, pretty good) they realise their limitations. They can't lead the Radiant, because they can't reincarnate and they're too disassociated from the world. They have to stay as dream mentors, to advise the Radiant and teach them how to become worthy individuals in their own right, because without doing something like "consuming the dreams of mortals and controlling them in endless sleep" they can't experience the real world - and again, since they're the good guys, they don't want to do that.

Narratively, they exist to enable the Radiant, not lead or control them.

Basically, the Twilight Queens are antagonists, and thus get to play more of a role than the Radiant, who have (at a Doylist level) to stay on the sidelines to avoid overshadowing the player characters - who are the really important ones because the game exists to be fun for them.

It's deliciously insidious and hypocritical, just like the Court of Tears. Perfect.

Basically, one of the core things Mirrors is for is as a "dumping ground" for Crystal Tokyo stuff and the tendency for the magical girl genre to have one character be the utterly central one who the world revolves around. By doing that, it tells the player that the Radiant don't have "super special chosen ones" in the same way and that you don't win just because you're the protagonists, because that's what one of the antagonist groups is doing.

All three of the Twilight Queens are "ways that you can go wrong", after all.
 
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Alhambra is another thing I'm very proud of. They're a 'Dark Kingdom' in classic genre terms
I didn't even make that connection yet, but that just improves the whole package.


The Alhambrans tend to send people with families on their missions, because that reduces the chance that they'll defect because they'd have to abandon their families to do so
And if it teaches the rebellious princesses not to kill any single loyalist because of the pain that would cause, well, the Nation is served all the better, isn't it?


you earn boons and help from Alhambra by warning them about the dangerous terrorist maniacs who'll be gunning for them.
Oh, that's neat. Maybe I haven't read enough about the Court of Tears, but I wouldn't have thought they'd honor debts with the Radiant/rebel princesses.


Honestly, the way I personally resolve this is by making the Courts less important for the Radiant. The Radiant Queens are more akin to a pantheon of 'ancestor spirits' for the Radiant - so don't treat Diamonds as being equivalent to the Alhambrans. Treat the Radiant as being equivalent to the Alhambrans. The Radiant don't care as much if you feel you personally associate more with Diamonds or Hearts or Swords - which is how, among other things, there are Princesses who see no problem with following Mirrors as well as the Radiant Queens, or who view Storms as the bloody-handed 'war god' of the Radiant.
This helps me reorient my thoughts on the matter. Yes, I fully agree that the Radiant should be a hodge-podge of mixing and matching what works best for each individual character. Especially because the intended game default is that each troupe of magical girls ought to be a hodge-podge of Courts.

(Not to mention the message that it was the Courts drawing lines in the sand between each other that LED to the Darkness destroying the Kingdom.)

The Alhambrans have a singular, surviving Nation to return home to, but the Radiant Queens are ghosts haunting the Dreamlands and the Radiant Princesses are based on Earth, where they live and fight. Radiant society should be with each other, rather than splitting up to leave Earth.


One of the big arguments was with people who didn't agree with my idea that a well-balanced Princess should be buying multiple Invocations, and that normal, healthy personalities aren't too devoted to a single Queen. As far as I'm concerned, Radiant Princesses (or Princes - I'm totally behind there being plenty of male Enlightened, but for genre reasons the pronouns default to feminine in the text - hence why a lot of stuff I wrote talks about 'the Enlightened' and 'Nobles' rather than 'Princesses') should at the very least have a primary and secondary Invocation which together express more nuance about your perspective. For example, Diamonds-primary Hearts-secondary indicates that you think that care should be taken with new knowledge, and that it's important to not lose the good things about the past.
Huh, I kind of felt this was natural. Especially since the system doesn't force you to put all your Invocation dots into one field, and even restricts you from doing so as a Courtless.

It helps that I could never translate an existing magical girl character into the setting without multiple Invocations.

Yuuno Scrya sees something he wants in Acqua, Legnos, and Fuoco.

Takamachi Nanoha herself is mostly Fuoco with some Aria and Terra.

To preserve her essential personality, Fate has to become something other than an electric speedster, because Aria doesn't fit her at all. Lacrima, Fuoco, and Terra. (Well, she can get speed from Perfect Charms, but not from Aria-oriented wind-and-flight Charms.)

Rarity is the only one of the Main Six ponies to practice a Twilight Invocation (she normally practices Terra exclusively), because sometimes she gives into the vanity of Specchio. None of the others has any reason for Tempesta at present, but all would be tempted by Lacrima if Equestria came under siege by the Darkness.

Of course, avoiding an obsessive focus on a single Queen goes right back to how the Queens are distant ghosts, and their dream courts are far less relevant to your Princess career and life than your own family, friends and fellow Princesses on Earth.

I'm actually dissatisfied with the stereotype reactions between Callings and Radiant Courts, whenever the opinion is negative. The Champions and Menders, and Menders and Troubadours, each have positive opinions of the others; like those you would find between different individuals who have been working together and come to recognize that they need each other.

But the negative opinions between the Champions and Seekers gets across the idea that by default, they never work together. Otherwise the Seeker would be grateful for the Champion's protection, and the Champion would be grateful for the Seeker's intel.

A mixed opinion is fine. The Court of Clubs can't empathize with the Court of Diamonds' focus, but recognize the valuable contributions of their science. Diamonds avoid Swords when subtlety is required, but recognize that Swords are handy when passionate action is required.

I also question the idea that a Seeker of Diamonds MUST be an Ivory Tower kind of person. I understand that a Seeker of Swords is more of the adventurer archaeologist type, but Seekers of Diamonds shouldn't HAVE Ivory Towers in this Fallen Age! They should be stuck in the struggle with all the other Radiant Princesses, just like Sailor Mercury was.


Basically, one of the core things Mirrors is for is as a "dumping ground" for Crystal Tokyo stuff and the tendency for the magical girl genre to have one character be the utterly central one who the world revolves around. By doing that, it tells the player that the Radiant don't have "super special chosen ones" in the same way and that you don't win just because you're the protagonists, because that's what one of the antagonist groups is doing.
Not that "super special chosen ones" are particularly bad in single-author narratives, but that they absolutely have no place in cooperative storytelling. Trying to act like you and your character is more important that the others is poisonous to the experience.

And even in single-person narratives where the chosen one KNOWS she's the chosen one (as Usagi and Harry do), the narcissistic bent of the Heirs would be a terrible attitude for the heroine to have. Notably, Usagi never, EVER acted or thought like an Heir did, despite having far more reason than an Unchosen One like Nanoha.


All three of the Twilight Queens are "ways that you can go wrong", after all.
That's the point of proper antagonistic foils. They're supposed to reflect the best in you turned to the worst possible ends, and the worst in you brought to the fore by their choices.

I love that they do it so well.
 
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Oh, that's neat. Maybe I haven't read enough about the Court of Tears, but I wouldn't have thought they'd honor debts with the Radiant/rebel princesses.

Well, remember, Alhambra has the theoretical end-goal of reuniting the entire world under their rule and bringing mankind back into peace and harmony and the ways of the Kingdom - that's why they call the world 'the Rebellious Provinces'. That's one of their inner conflicts as a faction; the goal of conquering the world and rebuilding the Kingdom conflicts with the goal of making sure Alhambra survives no matter what.

But that means that as a matter of doctrine, they are more than willing to recruit and to try to bribe Radiant Princesses (who after all were raised by barbarians without the benefits that a true member of the Nobility should enjoy) into joining their side. Even if they didn't have the ideological goal of unifying the world, pragmatism states that recruiting 'barbarian' Princesses is necessary to bulk out their numbers, because they sure as hell can't get enough Alhambran-born Nobility to stand against their many enemies. Most Princesses of Tears are born in the modern world, after all.

Hence, they work pretty hard - when it doesn't get in the way of the Light-harvesting - to show the Rebellious Princesses that they're on the wrong side and that they can get all kinds of rewards if they just come and work for the good guys. To put it in Exalted terms, the Rebellious Princesses are like Lost Eggs for Alhambra.

Of course, the effects of recruiting Princes and Princesses from the outside world and offering their families and loved ones a safe place to live in Alhambra (which coincidentally leaves them as hostages) does mean that outside influences can get in to their culture, but that's just another Alhambran conflict. There's enough conflicts like that such that I think Alhambra can totally support a player character game, made up of mixed natives and recruits.

(I like Alhambra and the way I made it a Dark Kingdom which is more than just a place of energy-stealing plans, but is also a real breathing place where the people might be foreign, but are very human. Can you tell?)

I'm actually dissatisfied with the stereotype reactions between Callings and Radiant Courts, whenever the opinion is negative. The Champions and Menders, and Menders and Troubadours, each have positive opinions of the others; like those you would find between different individuals who have been working together and come to recognize that they need each other.

But the negative opinions between the Champions and Seekers gets across the idea that by default, they never work together. Otherwise the Seeker would be grateful for the Champion's protection, and the Champion would be grateful for the Seeker's intel.

A mixed opinion is fine. The Court of Clubs can't emphasize with the Court of Diamonds' focus, but recognize the valuable contributions of their science. Diamonds avoid Swords when subtlety is required, but recognize that Swords are handy when passionate action is required.

I also question the idea that a Seeker of Diamonds MUST be an Ivory Tower kind of person. I understand that a Seeker of Swords is more of the adventurer archaeologist type, but Seekers of Diamonds shouldn't HAVE Ivory Towers in this Fallen Age! They should be stuck in the struggle with all the other Radiant Princesses, just like Sailor Mercury was.

Oh, you don't have arguments from me there. The stereotypes are pretty bad in pretty much all the WoD books. They tend to be passable for antagonists, but in-splat things? Bleargh. Like the stuff which wants to make Thrysuses all animalistic and rejecting technology? Yuck.
 
There's enough conflicts like that such that I think Alhambra can totally support a player character game, made up of mixed natives and recruits.
Alhambra can support SO many different kinds of stories, as antagonist or protagonist.


I like Alhambra and the way I made it a Dark Kingdom which is more than just a place of energy-stealing plans, but is also a real breathing place where the people might be foreign, but are very human. Can you tell?
It's a very good body of work.


Oh, you don't have arguments from me there. The stereotypes are pretty bad in pretty much all the WoD books. They tend to be passable for antagonists, but in-splat things? Bleargh. Like the stuff which wants to make Thrysuses all animalistic and rejecting technology? Yuck.
See, I can understand some Thrysus being like that. Maybe even, in-setting, MOST of them are like that.

But just as with Seekers of Diamonds, the perspective of the book should lend itself towards the PLAYABLE MINORITY. If most Thrysus are not suitable for playing in mixed groups where that kind of mindset is not conducive to cooperative group play, then shove those guys off to the side and focus on the ones with a more flexible mindset.

And unless the point of the game is to have players struggling against each other (such as in a Vampire game), DON'T color the playable splats as being contemptuous of each other!
 
Some part of me wonders if we should split the fanmade WoD stuff to its own thread.

While we're here... I'll admit, I haven't read the PtH line as much as I should even though it's probably the only WoD stuff I'd really want to try (maybe Genius), but what does Alhambra's attempts to steal the Light involve?
 
Some part of me wonders if we should split the fanmade WoD stuff to its own thread.

While we're here... I'll admit, I haven't read the PtH line as much as I should even though it's probably the only WoD stuff I'd really want to try (maybe Genius), but what does Alhambra's attempts to steal the Light involve?

Nah, there's no real point in dividing the thread between canon and fanon. Plus as someone who knew about the fan lines existed and that's about it, it is interesting hearing people talking about it.
 
I have to say, the Twilight Courts make for better foils than the Pure Tribes.

For one thing, it's possible - even easy and tempting! - for a Radiant Princess to join a Twilight Court. If you're choosing Mirrors, you don't even necessarily need to leave your current group.

I don't imagine you can join the Ivory Talons, and it seems the Fire-Touched would sooner burn you at the stake. Who cares what the Luddite faction wants, they seem boring to me and not particularly interesting even for the urban-born werewolf majority.

Moreover, each Twilight Court is actually tempting, because they have benefits you can't get with anything else. I think the Pure Tribes have to offer subservience to spirits or something?
 
and it seems the Fire-Touched would sooner burn you at the stake.

It would seem you are completely mistaken.

That is not the case. At all.

In fact, the Fire-Touched are the largest Pure Tribe precisely because they're diehard evangelists. One Forsaken rumor in the book on the pure is convinced that their faith is a disease that brainwashes other werewolves, because they're just that good at winning Forsaken over.

The burning-you-aren't-meant-to-walk-away-from is reserved for people who actually manage to piss them off and still refuse to convert.

[/correction corner]

To answer a question, Alhambra has machines that drain Light from an area, causing a buildup of Dark, and with it a Tainted Place. They then use that Light to fuel the lanterns in their hollow sphere of a city that prevents the Dark from eating it, and as part of a fantasy Star Trek Replicator system.
 
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