Wat.
The Technocracy were the bad guys, they were always the bad guys.
(Well, one of many bad guys.)

MJ12's a reasonably big fan of the Technocracy. This is not a large secret, considering he runs an entire Quest where the main protagonist is a Technocracy person, and while, indeed, subjective morality is a thing, I'm reasonably certain based on past statements that they think that the Technocracy is more-right than not.
 
and while, indeed, subjective morality is a thing, I'm reasonably certain based on past statements that they think that the Technocracy is more-right than not.

And to be fair, like, the Traditions had eleventy-hundred or whatever years to get their shit together and get on their Endgame chop chop. In a fraction of the time the Technocracy managed civil rights and electronic porn. So. Y'know. Just sayin'. :V

(Also for all their faults the Technocracy never let anybody in their ranks come worryingly close to drowning the world in Death Energy Euthanatos.)

That only works for the people that aren't in charge.
Because the people in charge want you to be a brain-dead slave-bot.
No exceptions.

Sssssooooome exceptions? Basically every Convention in the Technocracy views themselves as being the Real Actual Heroes of the Union holding everyone together in the wake of the Dimensional Anomaly. The ones doing shit for the Sleepers. And they're right, to a point. The Union isn't without pretty horrific flaws but they do a lot of good stuff for the Masses. Progenitors are responsible for institutionalized healthcare and canonically manage a lot of Doctors Without Borders style stuff. The Syndicate's ostensible mandate (even if they sometimes lose sight of it doing rails of cocaine off of Atlas Shrugged) is to provide the Sleepers with a structured society in which their efforts have value and that value can be used to maintain important things. The NWO is responsible for a lot of positive social reform.

Control was a lot worse about stuff. But I wouldn't say that it's necessarily anything worse than the Traditions have historically done. No matter how hard the Etherite splatbook tries to whitewash its steampunk-pulp sensibilities. :V
 
The Technocracy as a whole has done, and does, a lot of good stuff, yeah. Rank-and-file Technocrats are usually pretty decent people, yeah. But the leadership, and the institution in general is still pretty firmly of the opinion that regular people have absolutely no right to make decisions for themselves.
 
By the time Revised rolls around, the general tone is that both sides have a point and both sides have some seriously shady stuff in their closets. The question the Ascension War asks is how much is modernity worth? If computers and refrigerators and electrical systems and filtration plants and vaccines and steam ships required a secret police putting down and shutting up those who refuse to accept them would you still be okay with living as you do? Would you be willing to accept a new medieval era for the sake of freedom, knowing full well how many people would die of things ranging from smallpox to the Sidhe having a fit of pique - and that you might be one of those unfortunates?

The Traditions say that wonder and freedom is worth the cost. The Technocracy would point out that the primary beneficiaries of such freedom were the elect, the enlightened. The Nephandi ask if a world like that is worth saving. The Marauders ask if you put the monkey in the drycleaner last night.

But the leadership, and the institution in general is still pretty firmly of the opinion that regular people have absolutely no right to make decisions for themselves.

It's kind of hard to give people a choice if informing them that there is a choice would bring down modern technology. :p Not everyone is Arete 6+ and capable of that kind of double think.
 
It's kind of hard to give people a choice if informing them that there is a choice would bring down modern technology. :p Not everyone is Arete 6+ and capable of that kind of double think.
Yes, "the people who want and are actively working towards literal thought police actually have a compelling argument" is one of the big reasons why I think Mage works a lot better if you ditch the idea of consensus reality, burn it to cinders and piss on the ashes for good measure.
 
Yes, "the people who want and are actively working towards literal thought police actually have a compelling argument" is one of the big reasons why I think Mage works a lot better if you ditch the idea of consensus reality, burn it to cinders and piss on the ashes for good measure.

Well, better in the sense that it would make more people agree with the faction that the writers wanted them to agree with, sure.
 
Well, better in the sense that it would make more people agree with the faction that the writers wanted them to agree with, sure.
No, I mean better in the sense that I can have an actual debate in that setting, one which has some relevance to the real world. I'm speaking from my perspective here, and to me "a (relatively) safe world in exchange for mass oppression, thought control and secret police that would give Stalin wet dreams," isn't a question. The answer's obvious to me; fuck the Technocracy.
 
Yes, "the people who want and are actively working towards literal thought police actually have a compelling argument" is one of the big reasons why I think Mage works a lot better if you ditch the idea of consensus reality, burn it to cinders and piss on the ashes for good measure.

Yes, because black-and-white morality is exactly why we play World of Darkness games.

There are reason not to like Consensual Reality (it makes no fucking sense being the big one) but the fact it makes the game more interesting is not one of them.
 
No, I mean better in the sense that I can have an actual debate in that setting, one which has some relevance to the real world. I'm speaking from my perspective here, and to me "a (relatively) safe world in exchange for mass oppression, thought control and secret police that would give Stalin wet dreams," isn't a question. The answer's obvious to me; fuck the Technocracy.

What actual debate? The question of whether cool magic powers are cool? Because once you eliminate the Technocracy as having a very compelling point of view either your game becomes black and white 1E where you should blow up the man because they're The Man and they're all evil or you have to make the Nephandi the guys with the compelling point of view.

Which isn't actually hard in the canon setting-it's funny how the Technocracy gives and gives and gives all these promises of a world without toil-and the Sleepers fuck it up. Of course, if you're just arbitrarily excising Consensus Reality "everyone doesn't deserve to live because they want depravity and corruption and evil deep down inside" stops becoming compelling either. As I understand it, there's a reason nWoD doesn't emphasize "underdog mages banding together and fighting The Exarchs" and instead emphasizes hoarding/seeking arcane knowledge and squabbling with your neighbor mages.

Yes, because black-and-white morality is exactly why we play World of Darkness games.

There are reason not to like Consensual Reality (it makes no fucking sense being the big one) but the fact it makes the game more interesting is not one of them.

Consensus Reality is incoherent at the best of times but if you're getting rid of it you might as well play nWoD which works far better in every other way.
 
What actual debate? The question of whether cool magic powers are cool? Because once you eliminate the Technocracy as having a very compelling point of view either your game becomes black and white 1E where you should blow up the man because they're The Man and they're all evil or you have to make the Nephandi the guys with the compelling point of view.

I made a post a few pages ago that said that what happens in the World of Darkness is that you get to play a metaphor for profoundly unpleasant horrible people. In vampire you play rapists and murderers, in Werewolf you play spree killers and serial killers, and in Mage you play the kind of fanatic who is willing to hurt people for their own good because he knows better.
 
Control was a lot worse about stuff. But I wouldn't say that it's necessarily anything worse than the Traditions have historically done. No matter how hard the Etherite splatbook tries to whitewash its steampunk-pulp sensibilities.


One of the things which is both darkly amusing and very frustrating is the "the Etherites quit the Technocracy because Ether got written out of the Consensus, but got their revenge by including quantum mechanics - and then fought against the Technocracy-backed Nazi science" because it's basically just horrifically ill-informed and makes no sense if you actually know anything about the relevant eras of scientific history.

Yeah, the people opposing QM were also the same ones opposing relativity - and quite a lot of them were united in their dislike of "Jewish science". Which was one of the big reasons why the Nazi nuclear programme was so bad. And that's why I like to hammer out that "The Etherites are the bad scientists as well as the mad scientists. They're Dr Andrew Wakefield, they're people in Africa telling HIV sufferers to take vitamins rather than antiretrovirals, and they're the Lyshenkoists".

Because if your background is "we're the people who rejected relativity", then you can damn well suck it up and accept the historical consequences of that. And that means your forefathers didn't like QM either (and certainly weren't behind it) and your organisation has a strong element of the Geek Social Fallacies ("Never exclude anyone!") and of the kind of people who get laughed out by the modern scientific community.
 
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One of the things which is both darkly amusing and very frustrating is the "the Etherites quit the Technocracy because Ether got written out of the Consensus, but got their revenge by including quantum mechanics - and then fought against the Technocracy-backed Nazi science" because it's basically just horrifically ill-informed and makes no sense if you actually know anything about the relevant eras of scientific history.

Yeah, the people opposing QM were also the same ones opposing relativity - and quite a lot of them were united in their dislike of "Jewish science". Which was one of the big reasons why the Nazi nuclear programme was so bad. And that's why I like to hammer out that "The Etherites are the bad scientists as well as the mad scientists. They're Dr Andrew Wakefield, they're people in Africa telling HIV sufferers to take vitamins rather than antiretrovirals, and they're the Lyshenkoists".

Because if your background is "we're the people who rejected relativity", then you can damn well suck it up and accept the historical consequences of that. And that means your forefathers didn't like QM either (and certainly weren't behind it) and your organization has a strong element of the Geek Social Fallacies ("Never exclude anyone!") and of the kind of people who get laughed out by the modern scientific community.

Except that that ignores that if science is invented rather then discovered then science has a political agenda. So, well, you're simply wrong here. The idea of a non-clockwork universe where perfect knowledge isn't available is anathema to the Technocracy - it makes perfect sense as for the Etherite's though. Likewise eugenics was serious widely accepted science until after the Nazi's, who were so bad that they poisoned the well on the very idea - that's right up the Technocracy's thematic alley. And even after that we still had basically Nazi science done by the government in several first world countries afterwords... because it's still up their authoritarian scientific racist alley.

Trying to change or ignore either of those is "Let's rewrite the setting so the heroes are the bad guys, and the old bad guy's flaws are all erased, and new flaws are added to the old heroes to make them more ineffective before they're villainized."

So no, you don't get to do that.
 
One of the things which is both darkly amusing and very frustrating is the "the Etherites fought the Nazis? As I recall, they were Nazis. Well, some of them. Another part fought on the Allied side. As well as technocrats. I always thought that virtually all of the organization of magicians, were coerced by two halves during the Second World War.quit the Technocracy because Ether got written out of the Consensus, but got their revenge by including quantum mechanics - and then fought against the Technocracy-backed Nazi science" because it's basically just horrifically ill-informed and makes no sense if you actually know anything about the relevant eras of scientific history.
Etherites fought the Nazis? As I recall, they were Nazis. Well, some of them. Another part fought on the Allied side. As well as technocrats. I always thought that virtually all of the organization of magicians, were coerced by two halves during the Second World War.
Yeah, the people opposing QM were also the same ones opposing relativity - and quite a lot of them were united in their dislike of "Jewish science". Which was one of the big reasons why the Nazi nuclear programme was so bad. And that's why I like to hammer out that "The Etherites are the bad scientists as well as the mad scientists. They're Dr Andrew Wakefield, they're people in Africa telling HIV sufferers to take vitamins rather than antiretrovirals, and they're the Lyshenkoists".
Hmm, you say that it is necessary to remake the story of the Sons of Ether to more closely match the real conflict in science?

As for the bad scientists. Yes they are crappy scientists. It is literally the essence of the tradition, they largely reject consistency view of science, and this is the essence of the faction. On the one hand, this position may reflect the essence of reality. On the other hand, this crappy position from the point of view of creating a single and secure paradigm.

And I personally do not like that so Etherites reduced to steampunk and ether. Why can not I play ultramodern Etherites with the theory of of torsion fields? No, I know that there Etherites, which are completely uninteresting in Ether... But in the end, the stereotype has been created.
Because if your background is "we're the people who rejected relativity", then you can damn well suck it up and accept the historical consequences of that. And that means your forefathers didn't like QM either (and certainly weren't behind it) and your organisation has a strong element of the Geek Social Fallacies ("Never exclude anyone!") and of the kind of people who get laughed out by the modern scientific community.
I do not see the point of such actions. Why, to give the Society of Ether, more problems when they are enough bad sides and skeletons in the closet?
Changeling: The Lost is an improvement on the concept of playing Fey-touched characters in every way, shape and form.
I do not think that the Changeling: The Lost, suitable as a replacement changeling thematically. But Fae of the dark ages, can be a good substitute. Admittedly this will require some nerf. The forces of the old fairies are impressive.
 
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Except that that ignores that if science is invented rather then discovered then science has a political agenda. So, well, you're simply wrong here. The idea of a non-clockwork universe where perfect knowledge isn't available is anathema to the Technocracy - it makes perfect sense as for the Etherite's though. Likewise eugenics was serious widely accepted science until after the Nazi's, who were so bad that they poisoned the well on the very idea - that's right up the Technocracy's thematic alley. And even after that we still had basically Nazi science done by the government in several first world countries afterwords... because it's still up their authoritarian scientific racist alley.

Trying to change or ignore either of those is "Let's rewrite the setting so the heroes are the bad guys, and the old bad guy's flaws are all erased, and new flaws are added to the old heroes to make them more ineffective before they're villainized."

So no, you don't get to do that.

Yes I do.

Because, yes, the Technocracy was clearly in favour of eugenics, because it fits the historical record and it fits the top-down support of large amounts of the scientific establishment and the centralising "improvement" paternalism of the organisation. I'm sorry, did you think I was denying it? Yes, the Technocracy was heavily into eugenics (and the same sentiments are behind modern Progenitor attempts to bring genetic engineering into paradigm). Yes, in the WoD the Technocracy probably has plans in twenty to forty years to begin widespread genetic modification to remove defects such as cystic fibrosis from the gene pool. Yes, the Technocracy was behind things like "exposing black people to syphilis".

Do you think I'm trying to white-wash them? No. The sins of the Technocracy are the sins of the scientific community and the sins of the West and the sins of capitalism. There are plenty of things in a secret history we can blame them for. They were totally backing the British Empire in the name of producing a one world order and all those dead in India from famine are just 'collateral damage'. They totally threw their weight behind the neo-conservative agenda on the grounds of 'bringing democracy' and 'also getting our hands on the oil' - and that was the idealists in the Union who are responsible for that mess, because the old corrupt ones were totally fine with Saddam Hussein in power and using the oil-for-food programme, but the young-blooded idealists attempted to use force to impose their vision of society to "make things better" and fucked things up.

But part of that is actually taking into account history and not ascribing motives to the Technocracy which would make no fucking sense given their overall motives and goals. And we can't just ascribe "everything bad people justified with science ever" to them, if it doesn't match with their goals, if we want to have a meaningful antagonist rather than a Kratman villain.

Therefore, no, the Technocracy - which we have established to be strongly in favour of genes, eugenics, and suchlike would not have been behind Lyshenkoism, which was a neo-Lammarckian rejection of gene theory. That's what it comes down to. If we have established that the Technocracy are eugenicists who are strongly in favour of genetic theory and Mendel's work and doing things with fruit flies and then declaring that the same applies to humans, then it makes no sense to ascribe to them a theory which is all about the rejection of the genetic theories that the Technocracy was pushing.

(Or are we going to start claiming that the Technocracy wasn't in favour of genes now?)

Seriously. Look at Lysenkoism. Not only is it an outright rejection of the mainstream genetics coming into mode at that point, but it also exults the work of one brave practical scientist who isn't in the ivory towers doing things with fruit flies, but is instead down in the fields practically helping the peasants. The use of Lysenkoism isolates the Soviet Union from the world's biological communities and gets called pseudoscientific crap. So at this point, to claim that the Technocracy was behind Lysenkoism you have to claim that either the Technocracy is hopelessly insane because it deliberately and wilfully acts against its own goals, interests, and logic, or that history has been rewritten by the NWO totally for... some reason.

And once you bring in "history re-writing", not only have you entered the land of "let's dismiss the evidence for the sake of my argument" (oh, the irony), but Ockham's Razor implies that a simpler solution is that Lysenko was a Traditionalist and that his practices did improve crop yields more than historically recorded and elements of the Russian Traditions were siding with Stalin as a way of trying to gain control of a society away from Syndicate influence, then the Technocracy covered up their successes in the biological fields because they were incompatible with their own Green Revolution because of the Lammarkian elements clashing with their own genetic things. Which has the advantage of, you know, ascribing people actions which match with their motives.

That's the thing. The Progenitors are evil collectivist geneticists. Therefore they're not going to be Lysenkoists. Lysenkoism is in fact a shining triumph from a certain point of view of a single man standing against the general opinion of the scientific establishment and forging his own way and swaying a nation to change its path to introduce a field of science viewed as rubbish by the mainstream. It is in fact perfect character material for Etherite players, changing the path of science for an entire nation to promote their pet theories...

... except it didn't work. Which should actually reinforce things and give Etherites a good example of "you can do these things, but without solid grounding either the Technocracy will shut you down or Paradox will destroy your work", but... no.

And so by the same principle of "how about we ascribe people motives which actually... like, match with things at all?" Etherites, however, were not in favour of quantum mechanics originally, and the fact that the text ascribes it to them is nonsensical in light of history and the nature of QM and Relativity. I don't give a shit that the text claims that they did it - the text was written by people who were using "quantum" to mean "magic" and understood nothing more about the development of science around the turn of the 20th century. What the text says is stupid when viewed in light of actual history and the scientific positions held at the time, and the people who are pro-luminiferous-aether are not going to be pro-QM. The text claiming that the Etherites were anti-relativity as their cause celebre, but also pro-QM can be dismissed on the grounds of "oh my god so dumb, this is what happens when books are written by 90s counterculture sorts".

It's not the death of the author, but it is the committing of the author to an old person's home because they've started declaring that Gypsies have magic powers to help them steal.
 
That's a pretty good post. I probably will object only about Lysenko. Stalin and the Soviet Union kept a lot of different shit. I do not think that the blame, all scientists with unsuccessful theories, or even all of the pseudo-science in the Sons of Ether is reasonable. In the end, in this world must be someone not involved in the magicians, vampires, or Gummi bears from Umbra.

And yes, Stalin was a technocrat from at least according to some reports. Although to be honest I'm about the same agrees with "Stalin was a technocrat " as i agree with Rage across Russia. That is, I think it is nonsense.
... except it didn't work. Which should actually reinforce things and give Etherites a good example of "you can do these things, but without solid grounding either the Technocracy will shut you down or Paradox will destroy your work", but... no.

And so by the same principle of "how about we ascribe people motives which actually... like, match with things at all?" Etherites, however, were not in favour of quantum mechanics originally, and the fact that the text ascribes it to them is nonsensical in light of history and the nature of QM and Relativity. I don't give a shit that the text claims that they did it - the text was written by people who were using "quantum" to mean "magic" and understood nothing more about the development of science around the turn of the 20th century. What the text says is stupid when viewed in light of actual history and the scientific positions held at the time, and the people who are pro-luminiferous-aether are not going to be pro-QM. The text claiming that the Etherites were anti-relativity as their cause celebre, but also pro-QM can be dismissed on the grounds of "oh my god so dumb, this is what happens when books are written by 90s counterculture sorts".
I do not think that the Sons of Ether describe as a single organization is reasonable. By the end of the 18th century they did not even have one of the governing body as I can remember. And even the current Ethics Council, simply did not have the power to unite all. Maybe some Sons of Ether supported the theory of relativity, but most were against. Maybe some scientists Technocrats also opposed but decided it was not worth it. I agree that saying "Sons of Ether have created quantum mechanics as an attack against the technocracy." this is stupid. On the other hand, "Some of the Sons of Ether helped push quantum mechanics" it is more reasonable.
 
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If they didn't oppose relativity and helped push QM, I would imagine they didn't leave the Technocracy with the rest of their Convention and instead moved into the Void Engineers when the rest of the Electrodyne Engineers defected.
 
If they didn't oppose relativity and helped push QM, I would imagine they didn't leave the Technocracy with the rest of their Convention and instead moved into the Void Engineers when the rest of the Electrodyne Engineers defected.

Yes. Much like I expect that when the Virtual Adepts quit, a bunch of people from other Conventions quit - it's just they formed little groupings inside other Traditions (like the Shadow Ministry of ex-NWO sorts in the Etherites and numerologist finance-magicians in the Hermetics for ex-Syndics). And that the VAs who didn't quit wound up in Iteration X or the Ivory Tower.
 
If they didn't oppose relativity and helped push QM, I would imagine they didn't leave the Technocracy with the rest of their Convention and instead moved into the Void Engineers when the rest of the Electrodyne Engineers defected.
I personally have always found "Electrodyne Engineers throw Union because luminiferous ether" shaky. Simplification and more to be honest. It would be more reasonable to say that this whole situation with the luminous ether became a sign of policy change, which part of the enlightened people did not liked .
Yes. Much like I expect that when the Virtual Adepts quit, a bunch of people from other Conventions quit - it's just they formed little groupings inside other Traditions (like the Shadow Ministry of ex-NWO sorts in the Etherites and numerologist finance-magicians in the Hermetics for ex-Syndics). And that the VAs who didn't quit wound up in Iteration X or the Ivory Tower.
Virtual Adepts still receive refugees from technocracy. Just like the old frustrations adepts trying to return to the X iterations. I wonder whether the same situation when Electrodyne engineers left. Or is it unique to the Virtual Adepts turnover of personnel.
 
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Well the VAs are after all much more orthodox in there paradigm then Etherites , there is a reason that the worst that they usually do is something that the Syndicate has with its Hypermath and that it is only a conflict about how to implement the paradigm, and not what the paradigm is for most of them.
 
Except that that ignores that if science is invented rather then discovered then science has a political agenda. So, well, you're simply wrong here. The idea of a non-clockwork universe where perfect knowledge isn't available is anathema to the Technocracy - it makes perfect sense as for the Etherite's though. Likewise eugenics was serious widely accepted science until after the Nazi's, who were so bad that they poisoned the well on the very idea - that's right up the Technocracy's thematic alley. And even after that we still had basically Nazi science done by the government in several first world countries afterwords... because it's still up their authoritarian scientific racist alley.

Except that isn't even what quantum mechanics is. Quantum mechanics is probabilistic rather than deterministic-it doesn't mean you can't define everything about the universe (in fact, with some of the wackiness that comes with QM like quantum computing you probably could :V). Quantum mechanics and relativity represent a very interesting point, politically speaking. They represent when you truly, definitively took a lot of science out of the realm of 'common sense' and into esoteric theory that only a relative handful of people understand. Quantum mechanics does that even better than relativity, in fact. I mean, you can have a 5th grader explanation of relativity that gets the basics down. A 5th grader explanation of quantum mechanics doesn't even describe that.

You know what the Etherites are about? They're about rejecting the realistic image of science where you need 10 billion dollars and a giant particle accelerator to make miniscule knowledge advances and deliver it back to the common man so you can have gifted overmen build power armors in a cave with a box of scraps. They're about rejecting the Technocracy's ideas that science is hard and complex and should be left to the experts.

The Etherites patting themselves on the back for introducing quantum mechanics into Consensus (is it really? Because I doubt 99.9% of people know what the fuck QM is and what it means) is like, I don't know, the Verbena smugging out that the Technocracy has made transgenic plants and animals a thing. It's literally being smug about how you've shot yourself in the head. Repeatedly.
 
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Except that isn't even what quantum mechanics is. Quantum mechanics is probabilistic rather than deterministic-it doesn't mean you can't define everything about the universe (in fact, with some of the wackiness that comes with QM like quantum computing you probably could :V). Quantum mechanics and relativity represent a very interesting point, politically speaking. They represent when you truly, definitively took a lot of science out of the realm of 'common sense' and into esoteric theory that only a relative handful of people understand. Quantum mechanics does that even better than relativity, in fact. I mean, you can have a 5th grader explanation of relativity that gets the basics down. A 5th grader explanation of quantum mechanics doesn't even describe that.

You know what the Etherites are about? They're about rejecting the realistic image of science where you need 10 billion dollars and a giant particle accelerator to make miniscule knowledge advances and deliver it back to the common man so you can have gifted overmen build power armors in a cave with a box of scraps. They're about rejecting the Technocracy's ideas that science is hard and complex and should be left to the experts.

The Etherites patting themselves on the back for introducing quantum mechanics into Consensus (is it really? Because I doubt 99.9% of people know what the fuck QM is and what it means) is like, I don't know, the Verbena smugging out that the Technocracy has made transgenic plants and animals a thing. It's literally being smug about how you've shot yourself in the head. Repeatedly.

"Look at us! We're the Etherites! We're so afraid of the Technocracy fucking us over so we did it before they could! We're so brilliant! Now they can't fuck us over like that!"

What? No - Etherites are like, 300% as smug elitist as the Technocracy. The Technocracy says that with enough work, anyone can understand science, The Son's of Ether explicitly disagree.

That may (is) a terrible terrible thing to have as part of your paradigm, but they've drifted off into there own direction that doesn't just disagree with the Union, but actively rejects basic aspects of their premise.

People not being able to understand their paradigm isn't seen as a flaw (by them).
 
What? No - Etherites are like, 300% as smug elitist as the Technocracy. The Technocracy says that with enough work, anyone can understand science, The Son's of Ether explicitly disagree.

That may (is) a terrible terrible thing to have as part of your paradigm, but they've drifted off into there own direction that doesn't just disagree with the Union, but actively rejects basic aspects of their premise.

People not being able to understand their paradigm isn't seen as a flaw (by them).
No, the Etherite paradigm is that all you need to do science is spunk, a few random materials, and an idea. They don't support science requiring massive labs, millions of dollars of funding, and years of study into a tiny area of a subset of scientific knowledge. They fundamentally want science to return to the days when almost anyone could make scientific advances in their backyard by messing with pea plants.
 
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