Is that last statement just a colourful turn of phrase, like "for all I care, they can rot in hell" without literally banishing the object(s) of ire to hell, or are changeling hit squads really going to be coming after you as EarthScorpion mentioned?
Yes, Changelings really will try to kill them at every opportunity.
They view living under the power of a True Fae to be literally the worst thing ever and something they would never force on someone else, even their worst enemy. (If they do something like that anyway it chips away at their Karma Meter.)
Plus, Beasts resemble True Fae way too much for Changelings to be really comfortable around them.
Show the world, What being Hero means.
Being the Protagonist.
That is what being a Hero means.
They focus exclusively on attempting to seize the place of Protagonist from Beasts and forcing them into the place of Antagonist.
Attempting to gain just a little bit of control over their own lives.
 
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@zorb42
Why play that and not Hunter with Beasts as antagonists?

@Sydonai

YMMV on that, the Night Court lets people for the True Fae to find, Autumn's Nightmares intro fic has a Changeling being murdered by being left in the Hedge. And of course there's Privateers and Call the Wild Hunt.

Winter Mask p141

One small ritual — a habit more than anything ceremonial
— carries on from nights past. The members of the Moon Court
lead humans astray. The changelings find tourists and send them
not to the local bar crawl or historic statue, but to the dangerous
part of town. The Court members find lost children and direct
them into the sewers where they may be lost or even taken in
as family by other Wayward Road changelings. They take the
drunken fools who can't seem to find their way home and
steer them right into the Hedge (sometimes leaving little
presents for the Fair Folk who might come and kidnap such
an inebriated lout — such as a pocket full of razors, a sexually-transmitted disease or even a live hand grenade that might
explode when the fool Other goes to toy with it).

Also for Beasts and True Fae, I choose to disregard the ST adice in that's peculiar section. It's just bad.
 
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@zorb42
Why play that and not Hunter with Beasts as antagonists?
My understanding ,is that Nwod Hunter is ultimately Human with added bits. Hero in this should be more of an emergent archetype, something not human and ultimately not so different from Monsters he fights on some basic level. Hunter should be about , not becoming Monster, Hero, you are already waving human morality goodbye and you need to accept that.

If we go by this line of though we can spread, most splats to cover most things and then we do not have debate.
 
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Sure if you emulate mythic heroes rather than the edulcored versions, that would be fun.

Beware most heroes, specifically Greek one but Gilgamesh also, are or become monsters on par with their victims so...
 
My understanding ,is that Nwod Hunter is ultimately Human with added bits. Hero in this should be more of an emergent archetype, something not human and ultimately not so different from Monsters he fights on some basic level. Hunter should be about , not becoming Monster, Hero, you are already waving human morality goodbye and you need to accept that.

If we go by this line of though we can spread, most splats to cover most things and then we do not have debate.

This actually reminds me a bit of Hunter: The Reckoning from CWoD.

A game that I am one of the few people who like.
 
Of course depending on the version of beasts you are either chosing to become one, or born with a beasts soul.
In comparison Heroes are changed from regular people , with low sanity into a hero by a effect outside of there knowledge and as long as they do not get more sane they remain a hero.
So, why should we have compasion to one of them instead of the other ones?
And of course there is the problem that beast returns to seeing the Humanity stat as a morality meter instead of a sanity one.
 
Of course depending on the version of beasts you are either chosing to become one, or born with a beasts soul.
In comparison Heroes are changed from regular people , with low sanity into a hero by a effect outside of there knowledge and as long as they do not get more sane they remain a hero.
So, why should we have compasion to one of them instead of the other ones?
And of course there is the problem that beast returns to seeing the Humanity stat as a morality meter instead of a sanity one.

Yes. This is a problem that I hope they fix in the revision of Beast.

Though honestly, my greatest wish is that they stop it with the new gamelines and instead focus on what they already have...
 
I have a question to the people familiar with Mage: The Ascension. Are there at least some rules for spells that cause damage to the area? As the grenade explosions, fireballs, hurricane wind? Or is the only way to spend is on the success to the enemy?

And yes, at the moment the beast sounds like something from a nightmare or anecdotes about how bad white wolves. Or Onyx Path. Really the point when the player starts to wonder who is better, the protagonists or Nefandi, this is the point where you can not imagine the main characters of the book a little bit cute. No, it's okay if you intend to do so. In the end, there are entire books on the game as the Nefandi. But those books do not try to deny that Nefandi the monsters.
 
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Ultimately, it is kind of fascinating, that experienced developers, who should be knowledgeable about themes of modern storytelling, still run headlong into X-men paradox and it is not like this paradox is unknown pitfall. It has been centerpiece of a lot of works in this day and age.

p.s. My paranoia is acting up again, Does anyone know, how much are writers of Beast, respective new Nwod edition connected to Sardonyx system(Scion, Trinity) writers? It worries me.
 
I have a question to the people familiar with Mage: The Ascension. Are there at least some rules for spells that cause damage to the area? As the grenade explosions, fireballs, hurricane wind? Or is the only way to spend is on the success to the enemy?

RuleBook, revised :Scoring Area: Affecting a Pattern other than the mage herself requires a success. Each additional Pattern affected after the first requires an extra success. Each addition Pattern affected after the first requires an extra success. Affecting a large area requires additional successes at the Storyteller's discretion. A giant ball of flame is harder to make than a simple, single bolt of fire.

So yeah ST discretion.

Edit:
M20 assumes that you can hit one target per sucess that you got on your roll, without splitting those away from the effect and seems to imply that you need at least 5 for a area effect if you consider it a "significant change to a area". But then they also say that area effects do not need to consider how many targets are inside of them so..
 
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I have a question to the people familiar with Mage: The Ascension. Are there at least some rules for spells that cause damage to the area? As the grenade explosions, fireballs, hurricane wind? Or is the only way to spend is on the success to the enemy?

And yes, at the moment the beast sounds like something from a nightmare or anecdotes about how bad white wolves. Or Onyx Path. Really the point when the player starts to wonder who is better, the protagonists or Nefandi, this is the point where you can not imagine the main characters of the book a little bit cute. No, it's okay if you intend to do so. In the end, there are entire books on the game as the Nefandi. But those books do not try to deny that Nefandi the monsters.

I tend to rule one success per meter.

And yes Beast is terrible. But after spending some time, I must conclude that I rate it like this.

WORST

1. Gypsies
2. Beast
3. Dirty Secrets of The Black Hand

NOT WORST
 
I'll need to detour a bit here to provide some context. When the Kickstarter was released with it's full-text preview, more was revealed about Beasts. They were jerks. Petty jerks. Petty, murderous, abusive jerks. They got power back from being abusive dicks to people.

A bit of a tangent, I read this on break and sort of mulled it over after but I was thinking (scary for those who know me, true :V) but a big thing about Beast that sticks in my craw is...it's petty. And not just the Beast's behavior or their natures but the Beasts themselves. For a conceit that spends a lot of time talking about how you're the effective reincarnation of a literal monster of legend the line doesn't seem to go to any lengths to actually support that. I don't read the example Beasts, ostensibly the elder siblings of many more common monsters, and think to myself "Oh yeah, this is totally someone that, when they raise their voice to a pack of werewolves, gets a bunch of dog-whines in reply". Or "This is someone who can scare local vampires shitless just by rolling into town". Like, Beasts can get firearms. And breaking and entering gear. Okay. Why? Why does a capital D Dragon need to do the equivalent of picking up a Knight's sword? Why does the Kraken have to muck about with a crime scene kit? If one determined guy from the homeowner's association with a crowbar is a legitimate threat to you you're not an endgame Boss son. At best you're Monster-of-the-Week filler on Supernatural.

And sure, yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit. But Heroes are sort of disappointing too in the same sense. I can't read their descriptions and abilities (also seriously the Anathema is such a cop-out goddamn, at least have the decency to let the monster's own sins bring about their downfall) and hear Rules of Nature playing. I can't imagine these people standing in Medusa's lair and grappling with the Gorgon. I can't imagine them facing down the Bull of Heaven or slaying Yamata-No-Orochi. They're just assholes with nice guns who don't die when they are killed.

Also I know its been said but Beasts just being, fuck I dunno, spiritual otherkin is legitimately aggravating. So they can't manifest their true forms outside the Lair. Fine. Okay. At least them have actual tentacles and stuff instead of closing their eyes and pretending really really hard.

Beast: the Primordial. The violent power-fantasies of feminists and the LGBT, where you get to beat up Men's Rights Activists and Gamergate, who hate you because you're better than them. As a lesbian transwoman feminist, McFarland, please stop helping.

That awkward moment when in his mad dash to side with the disenfranchised McFarland explicitly validates Pat Fucking Robertson. :V

Beasts have none of these things. Beasts are horrible, terrible monsters that can only gain food from terrorizing people and exploiting their very worst nightmares. They can only expand their lairs by either creating an extremely powerful Nightmare (Exceptional Success) or driving people insane. Their very presence terrorizes people and makes their lives worse, they have no trace of a human mind and there is no positive evolutionary path for them! One is becoming a monster that stalks dreams, one is becoming a terrifying way too real hybrid of Beast and human, and the last is becoming a terrible, horrifying expression of a primordial monster.

Honestly what would have been neat is like...dunno. Orienting the conflict more towards the whole dual nature of Beasts and Heroes and acknowledging more shades of gray than "none at all". Beasts create Heroes. Monsterslayers don't have a purpose without Monsters. Neither of them asked for this. Bravery and Determination are good (and Heroes naturally embody those) but capital-F Fear (which Beasts basically are for humankind as a whole) serves a useful, essential even, function too; and omnipresent phobia isn't any healthier than a complete absence of the ability to feel fear. So you have two groups of, at the end of the day, mostly-people trying to assert some control over their own stories. Each filling a crucial role.

Or just give Beasts the option to not be an enormous asshole 24/7 to stay alive like some kind of socially insensitive shark. That'd be nice too.

1. Gypsies
2. Beast
3. Dirty Secrets of The Black Hand

Incorrect.

Changing Breeds is not on there. Any list of horrible White Wolf stuff that does not include Brucato's spunk-stained Furryfic is functionally incomplete. To remedy this I have assigned it a ranking of 1b.
 
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Or just give Beasts the option to not be an enormous asshole 24/7 to stay alive like some kind of socially insensitive shark. That'd be nice too.

But don't you see? It is a requirement for the game to work. We can't have things like character depth and such!

That would ruin it!

Incorrect.

Changing Breeds is not on there. Any list of horrible White Wolf stuff that does not include Brucato's spunk-stained Furryfic is functionally incomplete. To remedy this I have assigned it a ranking of 1b.

I didn't find it that bad.

2b. It's not close to Gypsies.
 
p.s. My paranoia is acting up again, Does anyone know, how much are writers of Beast, respective new Nwod edition connected to Sardonyx system(Scion, Trinity) writers? It worries me.

Not sure. I'm having an annoyingly hard time finding out who's working on what.

So far though, I know that Neall is working on Scion as the lead developer after replacing Joseph Carriker. Also pretty sure that Dave Brookshaw is working on it. As for Trinity, Ian and John Snead are working on it, provided no changes have happened since then.

Other than that, I've got no clue. If anyone has a link or something to a big list of who's doing what, I'd be thrilled to see it.
 
Quick Awakening rules question: the Space 3 Portal spell requires by default a sympathetic connection to the targeted location, and costs 1 mana. But is the +1 mana surcharge of all sympathetic spells already counted in this, or is the mana cost to cast Portal actually 2 (1+1 for sympathetic magic)?

Somewhat related, at what dot rating and what practice should I put within-sight teleportation? Portal and Teleportation seem to me to be built for when you have no way to see the target except through scrying, but aren't actually what I would use if I wanted to make Nightcrawler style teleportation.
 
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Quick Awakening rules question: the Space 3 Portal spell requires by default a sympathetic connection to the targeted location, and costs 1 mana. But is the +1 mana surcharge of all sympathetic spells already counted in this, or is the mana cost to cast Portal actually 2 (1+1 for sympathetic magic)?

Somewhat related, at what dot rating and what practice should I put within-sight teleportation? Portal and Teleportation seem to me to be built for when you have no way to see the target except through scrying, but aren't actually what I would use if I wanted to make Nightcrawler style teleportation.

I would assume that it is not counted in it, meaning that yes, it would be 2, but my Awakening is a bit rusty.

I would say that within-sight teleportation is Space 3 of the Weaving Practice.
 
Honestly what would have been neat is like...dunno. Orienting the conflict more towards the whole dual nature of Beasts and Heroes and acknowledging more shades of gray than "none at all". Beasts create Heroes. Monsterslayers don't have a purpose without Monsters. Neither of them asked for this.
This sounds a bit like a consensus that explicitly runs on Narritivium.

There are Beasts, because they are necessary for the narrative.

There are Heroes, because they are necessary for the narrative.

Neither one is exceptionally happy about their role in that narrative, or inclined to just go along with the whims of fate.
 
Well I mean...stories and legends are already implicitly and explicitly a big thing in Beast. Ana -ugh- themas are basically tactical myth. The gameline was marketed with the whole idea of "change your story". Beasts seem to be, in some sense, defined by the legends that surround them and, iirc, create them even.

It's not even that much of a stretch!

It'd just require the corebook to stop sucking off Beasts for ten minutes. :V
 
I would assume that it is not counted in it, meaning that yes, it would be 2, but my Awakening is a bit rusty.

I would say that within-sight teleportation is Space 3 of the Weaving Practice.
That was my first thought as well, but one of my players was able to argue otherwise convincingly enought that I let him do it for 1 mana. I was looking for confirmation or denial of my own position.

Space 3 is were I'd like it to be as well. I guess Spell factors penalties would be for transporting extra people with you, or particulary big objects (Size 6+, perhaps?) and at space 4 I'd allow it to teleport other people at range. (Also, I run Apportation as not needing conjuctional Arcana, except Spirit or Death if what you want is in Twilight or on the other side of the Guantlet.)
Could this be problematic?
 
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Quick Awakening rules question: the Space 3 Portal spell requires by default a sympathetic connection to the targeted location, and costs 1 mana. But is the +1 mana surcharge of all sympathetic spells already counted in this, or is the mana cost to cast Portal actually 2 (1+1 for sympathetic magic)?

Somewhat related, at what dot rating and what practice should I put within-sight teleportation? Portal and Teleportation seem to me to be built when the you have no way to see the target except through scrying, but aren't actually what I would use if I wanted to make Nightcrawler style teleportation.
I don't think my group ever gave it any thought, and just set it at one. We actually allowed mana-free tactical teleportation (meaning not-sympathetic-range), although we set the requirements to Space 2/3/4 for tactical Apport/Portal/Teleport, for balance purposes. We maintained the requirement for additional Arcana for Apporting objects to the caster, but got rid of it for teleporting away from/along with the caster, on the basis that you are able to teleport your clothing around without the need for Matter.
 
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That was my first thought as well, but one of my players was able to argue otherwise convincingly enought that I let him do it for 1 mana. I was looking for confirmation or denial of my own position.

Space 3 is were I'd like it to be as well. I guess Spell factors penalties would be for transporting extra people with you, or particulary big objects (Size 6+, perhaps?) and at Space 4 I'd allow it to teleport other people. (Also, I run Apportation as not needing conjuctional Arcana, except Spirit or Death if what you want is in Twilight or on the other side of the Guantlet.)
Could this be problematic?

I see no issues with your ruling of Apportation.
 
I don't think my group ever gave it any thought, and just set it at one. We actually allowed mana-free tactical teleportation (meaning not-sympathetic-range), although we set the requirements to Space 2/3/4 for tactical Apport/Portal/Teleport, for balance purposes. We maintained the requirement for additional Arcana for Apporting objects to the caster, but got rid of it for teleporting away from/along with the caster, on the basis that you are able to teleport your clothing around without the need for Matter.
I'm curious at how you could use Portal tactically at Space 3, given that it's an extended casting.
 
So, here's a sort of riff (incomplete because it's meant to be a hint at a large world in my Quest) on Proximi, via a Changeling version of them. Or at least, it's supposed to have a similar sort of stance, but also a different feeling, since Changelings are far more hunted and thus there's a little bit less 'generational breeding' and more 'complete fluke accident that often ends there.' If I was using this for a Tabletop game I'd get to work on fleshing stuff out, and I know it's (well, if I had the powers listed) a lot more involved than most Minor Templates, but hey. I thought it seemed neat, though I know that it's a bit off topic, sorta?

Also, no, wasn't trying to do a 'plug' for my Quest, just thought this might as well go here, since it's something new.

To sum up what you learned, more or less.

A: Choose one Virtue and one Vice

B: Place Attribute dots, like normal, 5/4/3

C: Assign skills, 11/7/4, by category.

D: Choose three skill specialties.

Now, for the actual template

A: Choose a Oath-Maker, this is a choice between the Seemings, but also with a wild-card...The Gentry. Probably not available as a starting choice, since those bound to the gentry often tend to be...problems. If you get my drift.

Beast: In addition to access to Minor Fae powers that are Beast-y, theirs is the Story of Claws, and they gain a free specialty in either Survival or Animal Ken.

Wizened: Minor Fae Powers related to Wizened. Take this as read in all that follow. Theirs is the Story of Cunning, and they gain a free specialty in either Crafts or Empathy.

Darklings: Theirs is the Story of Fear, and they gain a free specialty in Streetwise or Stealth

Fairest: Theirs is the Story of Glory, and they gain a free specialty in Socialize or Weaponry

Elemental: Their story is the Story of Endurance, and they gain a free specialty in Survival.

Ogres: Theirs is the Story of Battle, and they gain a free specialty in Intimidation or Brawl.

B: Choose an Oath-reason. These are the reasons that the parents of the Oathbound were Ensorcelled by the Changeling. Note: not the stated reasons, nor the reasons of the Changeling, but of the human. They can be broad classed as follows: Love, Desire for Knowledge, Obligation, Greed/Power, Imposed Upon (the choice where they didn't get to choose) and...Gentry. Who can just override the hell out of the agency of humans that make deals with them and survive un-Changed long enough to have kids to be Oathbound.

Each Oath-reason binds them to a magical Archetype, and among Minor Fae powers of the Oath-Reason category, they can only learn ones within their Archetype. Just as they may only learn Minor-Fae Seeming powers of their 'binder' Seeming.

C: Magic! Choose 3 dots of Minor Fae Powers, in addition to those they are already granted universally. These may come from any General category, any Story you qualify for, and any Archetype category you qualify for.

Built-in:

At a Glance: They cannot see through the Mask automatically, but give them a moment of staring and they'll see through it, to the truth, without even having to be Ensorcelled.

Wyrd People: They start a Wyrd of 0, and count as supernatural for the purposes of resistance rolls, though with Wyrd 0 there's not any advantage except through off-the-wall powers and such that might temporarily give them supernatural resistance that builds on their Wyrd of 0.

Part of the Story: They may use Tokens by spending Glamour or rolling Wyrd (0 at the start, which means a chance die) and can make Pledges, though the number they can uphold at once is only equal to Wyrd+2, and they cannot vow on True names, Keeper's Names, or the like, of course. By the Wyrd's opinion, they are really wimpy Changelings, with all that implies in terms of what they're allowed to do. They are a bit of the story that has been written in, the spear-carrier of the mighty lord who in some alternate story had a name...a purpose. Though you can't harvest glamour from emotions. But you can eat Goblin fruits and etc. Can't learn Contracts, though. Just, you know, a lot more than people can do, still!

As for Minor Fae powers, I'm not going to reveal them because this ain't an Oathbound game, but, incidentally, they tend to be weaker than full-on stuff, and one example is the ability to activate a Kith power from 'your' Seeming for a time. The higher level stuff can almost be impressive, though, and don't underestimate them. You might learn more if you study into it, of course.

D: You may NOT choose a Court, but you may choose a 'Benefactor' Merit, one to five dots, that represents a Changeling benefactor who mentors you. Pick a court, or lack of court. One status dot is just some weak schmo, while 5 dots is a powerful Courtless Changeling at the head of an independent Motley, an advisor to a Monarch or a Monarch themselves, or otherwise very, very important. Tyler has Benefactor (Fall) 5, for instance.

E: Oathbound have Integrity like normal humans.

F: Oathbound begin with a Wyrd of 0. It can only be raised by paying twice as much as a Changeling pays to raise it. And it can only be raised to a maximum of 3 without certain merits to unlock higher levels...up to Wyrd 5.

G: The glamour pool for a Wyrd 0 Oathbound is 5 glamour at a time, able to spend 1 glamour a turn.

H: 10 Merit dots, a lot of Oathbound-only Merits. Have fun.
 
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