So wait, Beast is definitively going to be a piece of shit? I haven't followed anything about it; last I heard, the devs were rewriting parts cause of backlash from the 4chan leak.

It's probably going to be incredibly unbalanced and thus require an on-the-ball ST to be fun, at best.

They seem to be making it have more of a hook and better plot ideas than "being a nasty guy who audits people just 'cause," so it might have some redeeming qualities. All in all, it won't be great but if they fix its most glaring issues it might at least be interesting.
 
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So wait, Beast is definitively going to be a piece of shit? I haven't followed anything about it; last I heard, the devs were rewriting parts cause of backlash from the 4chan leak.

This is correct.

Beast is possibly the most horrible White Wolf/Onyx Path thing i've long read, and I have read Gypsies and Dirty Secrets of The Black Hand.

I am actually rather amused.
 
Look, they should have looked at how lots of people were hyped for Demon and just made HITMarks: The Chaingunning, the game where you play killer robots sent into the past for a long-term mission to ensure the creation of an AI-except you're not sure what iteration of the AI sent you. Also, millions of secret killer robots are secretly among us.

...

I would play this game.

Like, the game where you are displaced future robots all working towards recreating your version of the Singularity and avoiding all the others but you have no idea what is happening because Fucking Time Travel would be great. You could honestly use it as a metaphor for modern politics. And I mean real politics, not high school politics like Vampire tries to emulate (seriously, their splats are like the preppies, the jocks, the theatre club kids/cheerleaders, the punks, the nerds, the outcasts and the lunatics), but actual politics and how dehumanizing it is. Like a whole Cold War/clash of civilizations vibe could be dug out of it.
 
Nipticking

Beast was not leaked, the drafted version was freely readable at Kickstarter. When the shitstorm happened, the authors decided to rewrite heavily the whole thing.

YMMV on the rewrite of course but at least they tried.
 
Beast was not leaked, the drafted version was freely readable at Kickstarter. When the shitstorm happened, the authors decided to rewrite heavily the whole thing.
Yes it was. The playtest was leaked on 4chan. Matt said that it was out of date, then a nearly identical version was released with the Kickstarter. Then it got revised.
 
This is correct.

Beast is possibly the most horrible White Wolf/Onyx Path thing i've long read, and I have read Gypsies and Dirty Secrets of The Black Hand.

I am actually rather amused.

Well to be fair DSotBH is one part interesting things, one part hilariously stupid, one part 1E zany weirdness, blended into one of the most bizarre WoD books ever published, with said combination resulting in a book that is better than the random grab-bag of ideas it is.

And it did result in one of my favorite Grumpy Celt videos.



Beast doesn't really have any of that. It's just a poorly written splat. Not quite a Gypsies or a NWoD Changing Breeds bad to make it infamous or the silly level of stupid like DSotBH. Which makes it kind of dull in that regard.
 
YMMV on the rewrite of course but at least they tried.

I'm rather less inclined to give credit for "at least they tried" when their mistakes in Beast were so utterly egregious that the fact that they made it through the first draft and through playtesting indicates that there is something seriously broken with their playtesting process, or that the writers do not listen to criticism unless it's utterly overwhelming and that they have no capacity for self-reflection and "holy shit, look at these implications we're writing into this game - which are sometimes explications rather than implications".

Beast: A Game of Being A Horrible Person Who Complains That People Who Fight Back Against Them Are Being Oppressive
 
It was so fucking hilarious, I am still having trouble imagining what the hell they thought when they wrote Beast, what was the design vision? What was the entire fucking idea behind it?

"The players at the table shift uncomfortably."
Beast: the Primordial​

There seems to have been lots of ideas behind it, but the two core ones seem to have been "You're a bullied outcast, but you're special and can take revenge on your tormentors" and "you play women and other minorities harassed by MRAs and GamerGate".

The first is escapist fantasy in the true and tried White Wolf 90's vein. You're special. People bully you, but you have lots of fancy powers you can use to get revenge on the bullies. Pure, juvenile revenge fantasies. It's not necessarily bad; escapist revenge fantasies have their place and serve a purpose, but it's not a very deep concept. It raises some ethical questions that few-if-any attempts are made to answer, and ultimately it's one-note; you'll show them, you'll show them all, and then you showed them. The end.

The second was made clear from several comments by McFarland, and the way the principle antagonist of the setting was presented. Beasts are monsters, so they're being hunted by GastonHeroes. Heroes are people who hunt Beasts, but they're emphatically not Hunters. They are, to a man, self-aggrandizing jerks more interested in glory than actually protecting people from Beasts. Why are they self-aggrandizing, narcissistic jerks? Because the book says so[1]. They're also monomaniacally obsessed with killing Beasts, viewing them as a categorical enemy. Why are they all genocidal? Because the book says so[1]. A preview passage released before the Kickstarter all but explicitly compared them to MRAs; they are unpleasant, hateful, and obsessed with keeping the Beasts down.


I'll need to detour a bit here to provide some context. When the Kickstarter was released with it's full-text preview, more was revealed about Beasts. They were jerks. Petty jerks. Petty, murderous, abusive jerks. They got power back from being abusive dicks to people. It was obviously intended as a form of social transgressiveness; you're a homosexualBeast and that means you do things some people don't like. It was just that... well... Beasts got power from murdering people. From terrorising them. Several example characters performed acts of child abuse. One of the example characters is an old lady who attacks a teenager for stealing candy at Halloween. She sneaks into his house, poisons the candy he stole, strangles him with her hands when he's disabled by the poison, and then continues to terrorise him with supernatural nightmares for weeks.

Maybe not every Beast was a murderous child abuser[2], but it painted a rather clear picture. Beasts were like vampires, only less rape-metaphor and more actual rape[3]. It was therefore somewhat difficult to see what was supposed to be so bad about the Heroes. They were people who risked their own lives to kill some rather horrible monsters. Perhaps they sometimes killed a Beast that hadn't harmed anyone, but that made them no worse than Hunters; certainly not monomaniacally obsessed narcissists comparable to the Men's Rights Activist movement. The worst elements of the Heroes seemed tacked on; they were evil for the sake of being evil, to discredit and undermine any positive sides they might have. This received a storm of criticism.

To which McFarland responded among other things 'And, I note, once again Heroes smash their way in here and are all like "not all Heroes!" and "what about the Heroes?"', comparing anyone who felt that Heroes were unfairly maligned by the writing to Men's Rights Activists. If you don't like Beast, you hate women.

There's another sample character in Beast, Jo:
Jo doesn't tower over her prey — she's short, but she's all muscle. She enjoys letting other people challenge her, especially men. The challenge isn't always or even usually physical. Sometimes they try to test her knowledge on topics they think she shouldn't understand, or try to explain things to her that it's obvious she knows. She destroys them; she knows what they know and she pokes holes in their beliefs and their facts, showing them sides of the topic they never considered. Secretly, though, she relishes the rare times when a man gets so mad he tries to touch her, because then she can beat him in a way that leaves no room for argument.

See? She embodies feminism! She's being mansplained at, but she's she's smart and can destroy any argument against her! She's so good at arguing that nobody can ever best her, and they're always forced to see her side of it. And sometimes men get angry enough to try to hit her, and then she gets to beat the crap out of them, which just proves how superior she is. (Because that's what feminism is about. Beating men up to prove you're better than them - not the validity of your arguments or anything...)

Eukie shudders

Beast: the Primordial. The violent power-fantasies of feminists and the LGBT, where you get to beat up Men's Rights Activists and Gamergate, who hate you because you're better than them. As a lesbian transwoman feminist, McFarland, please stop helping.

(In the revised draft, the old lady poisoned a teenage jock, and she strangled him with a plastic bag, instead of her own hands. Much better.)

[1] They're also supernaturally compelled to become Heroes, yet also eeeeeeevil for being psychologically inclined to hate Beasts categorically.
[2] Out the 45 example X and Y-splat characters, over a third commit murder or abuse. Over half of them commit murder, abuse, property damage, or theft.
[3] Actual rape is not a crime described anywhere in the book. Which is fine. But the implications are still there. Beasts are supernaturally compelled to child abuse and murder. They get a kick from abusing and tormenting others; they're already serial killers and sadistic psychopaths - it's not a far leap to make that they're also serial rapists.

P.S: Did I mention the Beast that kills people for not tipping?
 
The second was made clear from several comments by McFarland, and the way the principle antagonist of the setting was presented. Beasts are monsters, so they're being hunted by GastonHeroes. Heroes are people who hunt Beasts, but they're emphatically not Hunters. They are, to a man, self-aggrandizing jerks more interested in glory than actually protecting people from Beasts.

So still better people than the Ashford Abbey faction of Hunters, then? :p

And on a similar note, so are Hunters who hunt Beasts for being super-massive-mega assholes who traumatise people, are serial killers, and in fact get their kicks from victimising others... are they compelled to become Heroes? Or does the game entirely gloss over that Beasts have it coming to about the same level as vampires and that holy crap, they're going to have so many specialist Hunter groups coming after them because they don't even have the vampire discretion based on "ow ow ow we're flammable"?
 
So still better people than the Ashford Abbey faction of Hunters, then? :p

And on a similar note, so are Hunters who hunt Beasts for being super-massive-mega assholes who traumatise people, are serial killers, and in fact get their kicks from victimising others... are they compelled to become Heroes? Or does the game entirely gloss over that Beasts have it coming to about the same level as vampires and that holy crap, they're going to have so many specialist Hunter groups coming after them because they don't even have the vampire discretion based on "ow ow ow we're flammable"?

If the metaphor of Heroes=Gaston is stretched, then Hunters are the angry villagers who, after the Hero is destroyed, realize that all of the people the Beast was Murder-raping deserved it and then go off in peace, putting away their torches and pitchforks, converted to the side of the Beast. Maybe? :p

That at least would be one way to 'add' Hunters in with Heroes.
 
If the metaphor of Heroes=Gaston is stretched, then Hunters are the angry villagers who, after the Hero is destroyed, realize that all of the people the Beast was Murder-raping deserved it and then go off in peace, putting away their torches and pitchforks, converted to the side of the Beast. Maybe? :p

That at least would be one way to 'add' Hunters in with Heroes.

Yeah, no. That's not great. At all.

Because Beasts are vampire-level monsters. It's the mutant problem from Marvel (that you can't use mutants as a metaphor for a discriminated minority when mutants attempt to destroy society on a yearly basis), only worse. At least mutants literally can say that Magneto's bunch are just extremists. Every single Beast feeds off fear and literally makes the world a worse place just by existing. Vampire is entirely honest about the fact that the world would be a better place if every single vampire was staked out in the sun tomorrow. Beast has no such self-awareness.

Of course Hunters are going to hunt Beasts - and they're probably the small-h heroes when they do so. Because Beasts are super-massive assholes, and sure, maybe #NotAllBeasts, but the game certainly doesn't frame things so the playable beasts are the ones who go "Yeah, we're not with those guys and it's those idiots who make Heroes".
 
Yeah, no. That's not great. At all.

Because Beasts are vampire-level monsters. It's the mutant problem from Marvel (that you can't use mutants as a metaphor for a discriminated minority when mutants attempt to destroy society on a yearly basis), only worse. At least mutants literally can say that Magneto's bunch are just extremists. Every single Beast feeds off fear and literally makes the world a worse place just by existing. Vampire is entirely honest about the fact that the world would be a better place if every single vampire was staked out in the sun tomorrow. Beast has no such self-awareness.

Of course Hunters are going to hunt Beasts - and they're probably the small-h heroes when they do so. Because Beasts are super-massive assholes, and sure, maybe #NotAllBeasts, but the game certainly doesn't frame things so the playable beasts are the ones who go "Yeah, we're not with those guys and it's those idiots who make Heroes".

I agree. I mean, my tongue was pretty firmly within my cheek when I wrote that.
 
"The players at the table shift uncomfortably."
Beast: the Primordia​
There seems to have been lots of ideas behind it, but the two core ones seem to have been "You're a bullied outcast, but you're special and can take revenge on your tormentors" and "you play women and other minorities harassed by MRAs and GamerGate".
?

Shame these two ideas were explicitly noted as not being the game's ideas and metaphors by the lead developper;)

by instance post 2702 in this thread

BlackHat_Matt;19100348 said:
But that metaphor (which was never intended, BTW) didn't work. While I don't agree with the criticism that some folks made that the Children were in some way reminiscent of the 1%, but it's hard to see Beasts as marginalized when the only point of comparison is that they're born with their situation and have a moment where it suddenly makes sense.
.

On a near related matter now wondering how this board would react at the character concept that jumped in my head when I read the draft.
It's based on the Furies so ...:???:
 
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Shame these two ideas were explicitly noted as not being the game's ideas and metaphors by the lead developper;)

One of the great advantages of the verb "to seem" is that I'm describing my perception of intent. Besides, sure, McFarland can deny that he wrote a game about playing women and other minorities put upon by GamerGate and MRAs... but he still wrote a game where the enemy is compared to Men's Rights Activists, and he personally compared people who defended Heroes with misogynists. If he didn't intend Beasts to be marginalized groups, why did he make their primary enemy into Men's Rights Activists? If he didn't intend for the game to be a juvenile power-fantasy about getting revenge on your bullies because you're special, why is one of the example character the embodiment of that sentiment?

If he didn't intend that to be the purpose of the game, he and his fellow writers did an exceptionally bad job of conveying their intent.
 
Yeah, no. That's not great. At all.

Because Beasts are vampire-level monsters. It's the mutant problem from Marvel (that you can't use mutants as a metaphor for a discriminated minority when mutants attempt to destroy society on a yearly basis), only worse. At least mutants literally can say that Magneto's bunch are just extremists. Every single Beast feeds off fear and literally makes the world a worse place just by existing. Vampire is entirely honest about the fact that the world would be a better place if every single vampire was staked out in the sun tomorrow. Beast has no such self-awareness.

Of course Hunters are going to hunt Beasts - and they're probably the small-h heroes when they do so. Because Beasts are super-massive assholes, and sure, maybe #NotAllBeasts, but the game certainly doesn't frame things so the playable beasts are the ones who go "Yeah, we're not with those guys and it's those idiots who make Heroes".

Actually, as I see it Beasts are worse than vampires, a vampire's bite is at least pleasant and vampires have done something that Beasts haven't: They made a society, we have the Invictus to say: "Only feed when necessary" and "Remember not to break the Masquerade". We have the Carthians that look at mortal governments in order to improve their own, we have the Lancea that tell vampires to listen to The Man instead of The Beast, their Theban Sorcery is even dependent on the Man to work. There is the Ordo Dracul that works to improve the Kindred Condition in every way, which is even beneficent in some ways to mortals (Less feeding!). And then there's the Circle of The Crone who are just genuinely terrible people, but everyone kinda knew that, so no one cares about them.

Beasts have none of these things. Beasts are horrible, terrible monsters that can only gain food from terrorizing people and exploiting their very worst nightmares. They can only expand their lairs by either creating an extremely powerful Nightmare (Exceptional Success) or driving people insane. Their very presence terrorizes people and makes their lives worse, they have no trace of a human mind and there is no positive evolutionary path for them! One is becoming a monster that stalks dreams, one is becoming a terrifying way too real hybrid of Beast and human, and the last is becoming a terrible, horrifying expression of a primordial monster.

They have no organisation, no government, no society. They make no attempt at policing their own, though their very presence turns the world against them, now let's compare to other supernatural critters:

Kindred: Have a society and elaborate rules.
Werewolves: Many actively defend mankind from Spirits.
Mages: Many at least pay lip service to aiding mankind and working towards a brighter future.
Sin-Eaters: Don't really do that much. Except enjoy life and bring Ghosts to rest.
Changelings: Just try to live a normal life.
Hunters: Are mortals who fight for mankind (ish).
Demons: ...Do their thing? Fight the God-Machine I guess?
Prometheans: Try to become human.
Mummies: Vary way too much.

And then there's Beast, the game where you play the abuser victim.

Fuck. Beast.

Kindred may be a parasite, but Beasts are a strangling vine that only takes.

It doesn't even pretend to give anything.
 
Could I have some comments on this Beast character I made? How does he appear, is it too creepy, these sort of things.

Thanks in advance.

"A (I hope) good Beast character"

Dura Lex Sed Lex : However harsh is the Law, it remains the Law

I suppose I always believed these words. As a child I loved stories about the Furies and others divine agents of retribution. The fact they dealt in harsh punishments was nothing to the idea that some powers hunted the wicked beyond what mortal justice could be. It is in part this conviction, that some evils must come to light no matter what that drove me to my present situation. And despite the flaws of my condition, I think it helped me make more good in this world.

Like many others supernatural my profane and initiated life are similar. Under the light of day, I work for Children Protection Services, verifying if foster homes are well-run, adoptive parents caring, and in most cases, inquiring about claims of abuse. When the lights goes down, metaphorically of course, I hunt and feed on those who harm family. Often I don't see the difference.


"Kinslaying is the oldest and most heinous of crimes" whisper the serpent-headed woman who is possibly me or a part of me. She is old, oldest than the justice of humanity but I have only few problems with the taboo she wants me to enforce. To harm one's blood, especially a child that depends on you, that's an evil old as the world and even as a mortal, it made my blood boil in ways others act do not.


So in addition to the ways of mortal justice, I have no scruples to use my supernatural powers to better plague abusers and murderers. Those who cast their children out for their supposed sins, those who try to remold them in more alluring shapes. Those who abandon their parents to die out of sight and those who victimize their charges. All of them are my prey and contrary to some of my brethren's, they can't say they didn't broke human rules and laws.


Whatt does that tell you about this world I never went hungry since my transformation?

My predation is of course, not limited to mortals. In this city, we have bloodsuckers and fairies and they can be as criminal as humans can. Indeed, I could certainly subsist on vampire sire-childe relationships alone to say nothing of the changeling's groups and their betrayers. However, I tend to not involve myself with them unless asked to. For very different reasons they are not human anymore and my concern is to humanity first.

And yes, I could feed on children if I wanted to do that (Although I should point out how few monsters do that, even vampire consider that sin a grievous one). In this case, I would feed on insolent who threaten the order of the family. Bottom line, the thing in me wants people with blood on their hands (or at least severe harm), directly or indirectly, and even among the children that kill, legitimate prey would be a minority.

The Fury in me doesn't care about extenuating circumstances or self defense or proportionate response. But I do. And so while I could dress down an insolent child for a quick fix this world has enough abusers to me to feast upon.

If you want to understand my prey, let's look at this couple in house across the street. Let's call them Mr and Mrs Smith. You see, some time ago, they cast out their son for being gay. As the boy was major, they told everyone he simply left. Everyone in the neighborhood believe them or claim to believe them.

Not long ago, I happened to the boy's corpse. The usual story: prostitution, drug abuse to cope, unwillingness and incapacity to contact relevant organizations then death, neither quick nor painless. Like I said an all too common story.

Some days ago, I begin my work with the Smiths. Anonymous letters, calls in the dead of night telling them about their sins. At first, I gave them a chance and simply told them about their son's death. I even provided the location of his remains to see their reactions.

Their lack of regret, and my allies and I can sense regret and other emotions I remind you, will bring me to up the game. Disturbing photos, call to the neighbors, flyers will be a prelude to the Nightmare. There we will talk about their sons and how they spilled his blood.

After that, that depends. If they feel guilty, as they should, I will simply feed on that guild and the knowledge of their wrongs and try to steer them on the path to redemption. If they feel no guilt, then.

For all I care they can learn empathy in the hands of the Lords of Faerie.
 
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You know, recent discussion makes me think I'd rather play as a Hero than a beast.

Just flipping the game around like that actually seems like it would fix most of the issues.
 
Is that last statement just a colourful turn of phrase, like "for all I care, they can rot in hell" without literally banishing the object(s) of ire to hell, or are changeling hit squads really going to be coming after you as EarthScorpion mentioned?
 
It goes both ways

It is a colorful way to say he lets their fate in the hands of Changelings (because he trusts them to enact justice more than he does Vampires)

But perhaps he doesn't know the difference between Changelings factions and some of his friends could be Privateers or Loyalists. (As True Fae are drawn to oathbreaking and taboos, I think it is not a stretch to imagine some of them wanting specific sinful people as slaves)

It is the sort of thing I would let the Storyteller draw hooks for. Because I agree, while the character would not mean selling these people into slavery (I mean they are unrepentant kinslayers), Changelings would violently object.

Come to think of it, the character could be a nice secondary antagonist in a Changeling chronicle,.

"You sell people to Eldritch Abominations who torture for fun.
-They are unrepentant killers who escaped justice. Who cares?"
 
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This exchange would be of course if the character would be played as an antagonist.

If I play him, he would be horrified to know what exactly the True Fae do with their slaves and more, why they do it. And heavily disturbed by the fact that the True Fae would punish sinners out of whim and fancy rather than being ministers of punishments.

Also the character, be it PC or NPC is meant to evoke the Furies, who were and the agents of divine justice and monstrous creatures.
 
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This might work. You are Hero. Something bonded with you in your dreams, half forgotten story, memory long gone and it granted you power. Sadly, this is not age of Heroes. Nightmares rule, their darkness overwhelms the world and drowns it. You will be demonized, refused, for your presence, does not elong into his world, anymore.

When Nightmare swells, it children rise, from the depths of deepest nightmare. You can fight them, or you can embrace them. Show the world, What being Hero means.

p.s. Slightly too much Princess the hopeful?
 
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