It's not. It's about how you cast. How would your character, as a mage, ignoring spheres for the moment, deal with problems like that?

That, more than anything, is what tends to sort you into different Traditions. How, when the rubber hits the road, you're going to solve a problem by casting spells. That's paradigm and paradigm is what separates Traditions from each other.

Ok, gotcha. Sorry for wasting your time earlier, then. I'd been thinking that people generally Awakened and then got picked up by a group their initial attitudes were compatible with, and then developed their paradigm based on what Truth that group taught then. A computer programmer interested in the occult being picked by hermetics who like his focus on understanding systems and rules, or by VAs who like his coding work.

It seems that that's kinda more a nMage thing though, and oMages are gonna have a Paradigm right off the bat, even if it's not necessarily a solid or consistent one?
 
Most Spheres give you trivial access to Difficulty manipulation, which allows for far greater bonuses and penalties than the dice manipulation of nWoD mages. On the counterpoint, nWoD mages have easier access to obvious magic than oWoD mages and have a far easier time acting like wizards than they do acting like Matrix protagonists.
To me at least, that says more about the system than anything else? Dice manipulation being the only thing nMages can do is more because thats all the nwod system allows, rather than a statement of in-universe capabilities like what MJ12 was saying?
Also yeah, another reason I prefer Awakening: the game is actually about what the title says.
 
I also don't actually buy that MJ12 quote by the way. Simply by how different the dice mechanics and nWoD skills and oWoD Talents and Knowledges are, I find the comparison meaningless.
Same goes for magical power (for a certain definition of it). The only thing I find oMages get better is easier access to Aggravated.

Both games have about as many 'core' abilities. Moreover, both games have similar expectations: 4d is 'average,' 6d is 'professional,' 8d is 'expert,' 10d is 'legendary.' Given this, the contrasts between a Mage in the oWoD and a Mage in the nWoD are stark.

The oWoD mage gets:
2 extra attribute dots (7/5/3 versus 5/4/3). It's actually 3, but the Mage gets a free dot of a resistance attribute.
5 extra ability dots (13/9/5 versus 11/7/4)
15 bonus points, which will generally be invested into arete, but still get you 7 extra points to spend on more shit
-much cheaper costs to raise certain things in chargen (for example, WP at 1 bonus point/dot.)

The 2 extra attribute and 5 extra ability dots are pretty huge since that's enough to take something in your primary from okay (2/3/3 attributes, 2 dots in that) to 'expert, can generally expect to be the absolute best in that field even when surrounded by people in that field' (5 in the attribute, 3 in the ability) without any freebies. This is ignoring the ability to use freebie points-Westin started out with 6-8d dice pools in all the physical skills a killer assassin would use, had a 9-die firearms pool right out of chargen, was competent in the mental areas, and also managed to buy up a bunch of computer science and medical knowledge.

5 extra ability dots and 2 extra attribute dots is the ability to gain broad competence in an entirely different secondary field. A oWoD mage spreading himself thin is a Renaissance Man, a nWoD mage spreading himself thin is a dilettante.

To me at least, that says more about the system than anything else? Dice manipulation being the only thing nMages can do is more because thats all the nwod system allows, rather than a statement of in-universe capabilities like what MJ12 was saying?
Also yeah, another reason I prefer Awakening: the game is actually about what the title says.

You get the ability to do permanent enchantments from Arete 1 in oMage, and the scope and scale of the things you can do with even 2-dot spheres are often significantly larger.

E: Also you get access to convenient de facto immortality in oMage way faster than you get it in nMage.
 
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Also yeah, another reason I prefer Awakening: the game is actually about what the title says.
Look, we're all aware that you dislike Ascension, but at least make your snide comments accurate - Ascension is as much (if not more) about achieving Ascension and the war for how it should be condicted as Awakening is about... well... awakening.

As for the Mage part of the title; you are perfectly capable of being a wizard in oMage, nMages just have an easier time of doing it and face lesser consequences for fucking up, both of which are cool in Awakening but which I wouldn't ever want in Ascension. Speaking as someone who likes both Ascension and Awakening as some of my favourite games, I find the whole edition war extraordinarily tiring and unengaging.

5 extra ability dots and 2 extra attribute dots is the ability to gain broad competence in an entirely different secondary field. A oWoD mage spreading himself thin is a Renaissance Man, a nWoD mage spreading himself thin is a dilettante.
Something to note here is that there are also comparatively fewer mages in oWoD when compared to nWoD where Mages are far less of the rare powerhouses that they are often counted to be in oWoD.
 
...and I really wasn't trying to start an edition war, I swear. It's why my comment was literally a single sentence as part of a larger point that I still think is a good one and is only tangentially (and barely then) related to oMage.
 
Examples please on that last one? And doesn't Arete 1 limit you to one dot spheres unless you bump it early at chargen?
Well, you start at Arete 2 anyways. :V

...and I really wasn't trying to start an edition war, I swear. It's why my comment was literally a single sentence as part of a larger point that I still think is a good one and is only tangentially (and barely then) related to oMage.
I mean, sure; the Seers are awesome - I love them to death and I think they're amazing for Awakening; I love the Exarchs, I love Prelacies, I love the Ministries and the Methodologies and the everything about them - I wouldn't ever want to "fix" Awakening by introducing a Technocrat-esque antagonist group, because the Seers are just about perfect for Awakening - but the reverse also holds true; I wouldn't ever want to introduce a Seer-esque group in Ascension, because I think the Technocratic Union/Order of Reason work just perfectly for that game's particular themes and motifs.
 
Look, we're all aware that you dislike Ascension, but at least make your snide comments accurate - Ascension is as much (if not more) about achieving Ascension and the war for how it should be condicted as Awakening is about... well... awakening.

As for the Mage part of the title; you are perfectly capable of being a wizard in oMage, nMages just have an easier time of doing it and face lesser consequences for fucking up, both of which are cool in Awakening but which I wouldn't ever want in Ascension. Speaking as someone who likes both Ascension and Awakening as some of my favourite games, I find the whole edition war extraordinarily tiring and unengaging.


Something to note here is that there are also comparatively fewer mages in oWoD when compared to nWoD where Mages are far less of the rare powerhouses that they are often counted to be in oWoD.
On phone right now and cant write much, but while I agree that edition wars are boring stuff, I still dont buy neither the Mage or the Ascension parts of oMage, and like I said, it was years ago, but I did read it.
 
Ok, gotcha. Sorry for wasting your time earlier, then. I'd been thinking that people generally Awakened and then got picked up by a group their initial attitudes were compatible with, and then developed their paradigm based on what Truth that group taught then. A computer programmer interested in the occult being picked by hermetics who like his focus on understanding systems and rules, or by VAs who like his coding work.

It seems that that's kinda more a nMage thing though, and oMages are gonna have a Paradigm right off the bat, even if it's not necessarily a solid or consistent one?

In oMage, you Awaken with a paradigm. Most people Awaken after tutelage, but that tutelage inherently is designed to beat a paradigm into you. Westin awakened after being taught things, but he was basically going through the training montage in the Wanted movie at that point, including the whole 'we kill people according to the loom of fate so greater evils do not come into being' shenanigans.

If you Awaken, and you're found afterwards, you're going to have a paradigm kind of by definition. And at that point beating it out of you is going to be harder.

Basically, watch the Matrix again for inspiration. The dojo scene and the uploading-that's Neo's education. But Neo only really Awakens when he's on the rooftop and he 'moves like they do.'
 
Well, you start at Arete 2 anyways. :V


I mean, sure; the Seers are awesome - I love them to death and I think they're amazing for Awakening; I love the Exarchs, I love Prelacies, I love the Ministries and the Methodologies and the everything about them - I wouldn't ever want to "fix" Awakening by introducing a Technocrat-esque antagonist group, because the Seers are just about perfect for Awakening - but the reverse also holds true; I wouldn't ever want to introduce a Seer-esque group in Ascension, because I think the Technocratic Union/Order of Reason work just perfectly for that game's particular themes and motifs.

...I mean. I've said repeatedly that this isn't a, "How to fix oMage guide."

I'm not as big of a fan of oMage as you, and I've sometimes been like BB in trumpeting it too much.

But the last post, and this one for that matter, are a lot more about me feeling my way towards my own distinctive style/themes/etc for nMage than anything else.

That's why I tried to lay out some of the ways that my own vision of it might differ in the goals (execution being another matter, always) than other versions I'd seen. The historical grounding, the desire for weirdness but within certain contexts, my semi-rejection of the Timeless Tolerance (as I just now coined it) that seems to be the default, unless stated otherwise or noted, for White Wolf gamelines (or rather for the supernatural societies in the gamelines).

Not going to turn this into a big speech (yet), except to say that it's actually really necessary and a smart move for at least most Tabletop games. Timeless Tolerance isn't a bad thing, thus, but as someone who interacts with nWoD as a Quest-writer, author, and the like, I move away from that, and always have, because I have different limitations.
 
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I know very little about oWoD mechanics (and what I do know makes me want to go hide somewhere) so...I'll take your word for it or something?

You shouldn't actually, as my (admittedly biased) opinion is formed on a single reading of the Revised corebook and two chronicles I played in Masquerade. Moreover, I'm not really an expert on dice math, it's merely the result of my experiences with both systems.
I'm almost certain MJ12 or someone else can actually prove me wrong. With math.

Old World of Darkness uses a variable TN and variable dice pools and exploding dice and variable success thresholds. This makes it extremely difficult to actually calculate probabilities for anything.

nWod uses fixed TN, variable pool, variable thresholds, which makes things much easier.

But the thing about variable TNs is that TN manipulation is absurdly overpowered and gives you vast swings in success probability.
 
You are trapped in a burning skyscraper. It is a 50 meter drop from there to the ground. How does your character survive it?

I jump. With a bit of luck, the floor won't break.

You are awakened by a SWAT team hammering down your door. You reach under your pillow for something to help deal with this problem. What do you pick up and why?

I pick the pillow, duh. It's just a SWAT team, i don't need anything else to beat them.

You have created a work of finest artifice, a wonder which will bear your name and part of your will. What have you made?

It's a movie. The public thinks i had a three hundred million budget, but actually it's just random scenes of my everyday life glued to make a barely coherent plot.
 
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I jump. With a bit of luck, the floor won't break.



I pick the pillow, duh. It's just a SWAT team, i don't need anything else to beat them.



It's a movie. The public things i had a three hundred million budget, but it's actually just random scenes of my everyday life glued to make a barely coherent plot.
Is it you, Gideon Stargrave?!
 
I jump. With a bit of luck, the floor won't break.



I pick the pillow, duh. It's just a SWAT team, i don't need anything else to beat them.



It's a movie. The public thinks i had a three hundred million budget, but actually it's just random scenes of my everyday life glued to make a barely coherent plot.
Isn't "bitch, I'm just awesome" a technocratic paradigm?
 
Yo. Which are the one or two best books that I should buy if I'm interested in Sorcerors and the general hedge wizard thing?
 
Probably an Orphan. In the game where I played Captain Sparta, someone played a dreamer who wanted to make anime fiction real (who also may or may not have been an Umbrood Lord in her dreams). It doesn't align perfectly with any Tradition. Also, the description doesn't say anything about paradigm, which is what ends up sorting you as much as basic ideals. To figure this out better, I have a few Elder Scrolls/Fallout-style chargen questions.

  • You are trapped in a burning skyscraper. It is a 50 meter drop from there to the ground. How does your character survive it?
I take a running start and leap to the next skyscraper, 60 meters away.
  • You are awakened by a SWAT team hammering down your door. You reach under your pillow for something to help deal with this problem. What do you pick up and why?
My fist. And also my other fist. And maybe my feet, but I doubt I'll need them.
  • You have created a work of finest artifice, a wonder which will bear your name and part of your will. What have you made?
My swole as fuck body.
 
Probably an Orphan. In the game where I played Captain Sparta, someone played a dreamer who wanted to make anime fiction real (who also may or may not have been an Umbrood Lord in her dreams). It doesn't align perfectly with any Tradition. Also, the description doesn't say anything about paradigm, which is what ends up sorting you as much as basic ideals. To figure this out better, I have a few Elder Scrolls/Fallout-style chargen questions.

  • You are trapped in a burning skyscraper. It is a 50 meter drop from there to the ground. How does your character survive it?
  • You are awakened by a SWAT team hammering down your door. You reach under your pillow for something to help deal with this problem. What do you pick up and why?
  • You have created a work of finest artifice, a wonder which will bear your name and part of your will. What have you made?

  • Attempt to make a parachute and Zelda my way down
  • The bat by my bed, use it to bust the window in my room and take my chances running
  • The worlds most comfortable safehouse
Im supposed to answer in a mundane fashion right?
 
That's the opposite of what you're supposed to do.

Ah.

  • You are trapped in a burning skyscraper. It is a 50 meter drop from there to the ground. How does your character survive it?
  • You are awakened by a SWAT team hammering down your door. You reach under your pillow for something to help deal with this problem. What do you pick up and why?
  • You have created a work of finest artifice, a wonder which will bear your name and part of your will. What have you made?

  • Create an explosion using the fire while using the air outside the huilding to shield me from the blast, and ride the explosion out to the nearest non burning stable building
  • A portable hole that leads to a bolt hole I prepared
  • A bed/coccoon that preserves your life, reinvigorates your body, and makes sure you are in peak physical condition when you sleep inside of it. It also can function as a glorified bacta tank.
 
  • You are trapped in a burning skyscraper. It is a 50 meter drop from there to the ground. How does your character survive it?
I stop behaving scared and/or looking for a way out, and instead make a sarcastic face. The film director suddenly realizes that I won't be doing my stunts, and says that I can go home for the rest of the day because today the stunt specialist will be doing all the 'acting'.
  • You are awakened by a SWAT team hammering down your door. You reach under your pillow for something to help deal with this problem. What do you pick up and why?
I pick my phone/watch/calendar and check the date. And lo and behold, as I thought, it's April 1st, and the 'SWAT team' is actually a bunch of my friends trying to prank me. I play along, then do something absurd as a counterprank, at which point one of them laughs and pulls off his gasmask.
  • You have created a work of finest artifice, a wonder which will bear your name and part of your will. What have you made?
A series of twenty questions that can be answered by observing a person. Based on the answers, the questionnaire allows identifying PCs versus NPCs. Also, if one swaps half the questions about the person with questions about the environment (either the position of the moon and stars, of the sun and clouds, or of things in the room respectively), it is possible to measure when the current story/session/scene started and when will it end for the target person.
 
You are trapped in a burning skyscraper. It is a 50 meter drop from there to the ground. How does your character survive it?

I shouldn't be trapped in a burning skyscraper, because smart mages remote in to work. Assuming this is hostile action, rewind and teleport away. I can always track the arsonists and shower them with gifts from somewhere else, ideally before they become arsonists.

You are awakened by a SWAT team hammering down your door. You reach under your pillow for something to help deal with this problem. What do you pick up and why?

I really seem to be forgetting how to remote in to work here, but, assuming this is hostile action, a widget for rewinding and teleporting away, which I should also be wearing instead of stuffing under a pillow. I suspect my character is under hostile mental influence.

You have created a work of finest artifice, a wonder which will bear your name and part of your will. What have you made?

Assuming "Celestial Ladder" is not available here, a better widget for rewinding and teleporting away which does not need to rewind and instead does this with precognition. Fallback is, of course, rewinding and teleporting away automatically, which is a very useful property.

If widgets of automatic teleportation don't count because I've already described how one would be seriously useful, a widget that automates the multithreading > analysis process of mining Arcane XP from unlimited surveillance data would be nice.
 
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