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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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So, quick question: Let's say a Mage awakens, believing that the scientists are absolutely correct about the universe and that everything is ultimately deterministic, but also that we sometimes have a moral duty to act as though that is not the case. Someone who believes, for instance, that the brain is nothing more than an organic computer, but we should treat it as though it's somehow more than that, irreplaceable and unique. Who feels that the religions of the world are mistaken at best, but that the world would be lesser without them and that we need to respect that which is sacred. Who thinks that there's no such thing as fairies, psychics or ghosts, but that the world would be a grander and more wonderful place if they were real. Where do they end up?

Would they be able to fit into the traditions as some kind of weird techno-Hermetic? I mean, they'd definitely agree with the more moderate Traditionalists, but I'm not sure that they'd really be able to fit in, especially given their Paradigm. On the other hand, I could see them being a particularly heterodox 'crat if recruited the right way, although I'm not sure they'd be allowed to keep their personality (go go gadget Conditioning!)
 
ChineseDrone said:
oChangeling is better than nChangeling!

( :p)
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I believe that both have their merits and stand on their own as games in spite of their flaws

tzar1990 said:
So, quick question: Let's say a Mage awakens, believing that the scientists are absolutely correct about the universe and that everything is ultimately deterministic, but also that we sometimes have a moral duty to act as though that is not the case. Someone who believes, for instance, that the brain is nothing more than an organic computer, but we should treat it as though it's somehow more than that, irreplaceable and unique. Who feels that the religions of the world are mistaken at best, but that the world would be lesser without them and that we need to respect that which is sacred. Who thinks that there's no such thing as fairies, psychics or ghosts, but that the world would be a grander and more wonderful place if they were real. Where do they end up?

Would they be able to fit into the traditions as some kind of weird techno-Hermetic? I mean, they'd definitely agree with the more moderate Traditionalists, but I'm not sure that they'd really be able to fit in, especially given their Paradigm. On the other hand, I could see them being a particularly heterodox 'crat if recruited the right way, although I'm not sure they'd be allowed to keep their personality (go go gadget Conditioning!)
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Id like to know as well
 
A question:
Is there anywhere in the Mage books, preferably of the Revised edition, a canonical statement on reducing difficulty of rolls on a specific attribute? I know ability difficulty reductions are one success per difficulty, but I'm encountering lots and lots of situations where it makes sense for my character to use magic to assist with perception rolls of multiple or even all abilities, but we as a group are reluctant to make too many houserules, thus I keep doing buffs of the "Awareness, Alertness, and Perception-based rolls of Academics (Psychology)" sort, and that's both somewhat fiddly and potentially inefficient, not to mention not quite representative of the fluff side of what my mage is doing.
 
vicky_molokh said:
A question:
Is there anywhere in the Mage books, preferably of the Revised edition, a canonical statement on reducing difficulty of rolls on a specific attribute? I know ability difficulty reductions are one success per difficulty, but I'm encountering lots and lots of situations where it makes sense for my character to use magic to assist with perception rolls of multiple or even all abilities, but we as a group are reluctant to make too many houserules, thus I keep doing buffs of the "Awareness, Alertness, and Perception-based rolls of Academics (Psychology)" sort, and that's both somewhat fiddly and potentially inefficient, not to mention not quite representative of the fluff side of what my mage is doing.
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Given it's not the action itself that is simpler but your character that becomes way better at it (through super magical senses), shouldn't you get more dices instead of needing less successes?
 
I was actually thinking about making a post about why the Seers of the Throne are better antagonists for the position they're given in nMage than the Technocracy is for oMage, but in doing so, I thought of something else I could do: bitch about things.

Like, am I the only one who wondered what the point of "the Oracles" were in nMage?
 
The Laurent said:
I was actually thinking about making a post about why the Seers of the Throne are better antagonists for the position they're given in nMage than the Technocracy is for oMage, but in doing so, I thought of something else I could do: bitch about things.

Like, am I the only one who wondered what the point of "the Oracles" were in nMage?
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They're a myth that that the Diamond has to explain the Watchtowers - perhaps nothing more.

Yes, the Silver Ladder would have you believe that they're fighting the Exarchs in the Supernal, but it's awfully convenient how that exactly matches what the Ladder wants you to believe.
 
EarthScorpion said:
They're a myth that that the Diamond has to explain the Watchtowers - perhaps nothing more.

Yes, the Silver Ladder would have you believe that they're fighting the Exarchs in the Supernal, but it's awfully convenient how that exactly matches what the Ladder wants you to believe.
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Yeah, it's just weird how they keep on being mentioned without elaboration or meaning. Like, even if they're fake, it seems like there'd be a push for some inventive fakery with making up an entire pantheon of them.[1] Which does also run into the problem of, "Wait, so there's the Seers, who believe in inscrutable beings in the Supernal...and then the Diamond does too?" And I don't think it really makes a, "They're the same" point well, either, which is what they might have been going for. Might have, but it's not really something that's needed, I don't think. The real similarity would be in other areas, and so having that one parallel just feels weird.

[1] I mean, IRL people spent a hell of a lot of time making Goetic demons despite them, you know, not existing.

The second thing that gets confusing is because it's a possible thing to do. Like, maybe not "the Oracles" but Diamond Order Mages do become Archmasters and even Ascend, so even if it was a filthy, filthy lie, it seems like over time the Silver Ladder would work to sorta-kinda make it true. Admittedly it'd suck to be the first Diamond Archmaster to enter the Supernal and realize, "Oh, wait, I'm now 'The Oracles' all on my own...ow."
 
The Laurent said:
[1] I mean, IRL people spent a hell of a lot of time making Goetic demons despite them, you know, not existing.
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I just find it amazing how many of the Goetic demons are basically tutors, personally. Just off the top of my head, there's Paimon, Bifrons, Ose, and Murmur.



Also a lot of the rest are 'Summon me to help you score with the [insert gender of preference]', but that's a little bit more predictable IMO.
 
Vindictus said:
I just find it amazing how many of the Goetic demons are basically tutors, personally. Just off the top of my head, there's Paimon, Bifrons, Ose, and Murmur.



Also a lot of the rest are 'Summon me to help you score with the [insert gender of preference]', but that's a little bit more predictable IMO.
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Obviously, a lazy college student wrote all of the Goetic Demons. It all makes sense now!
 
The Laurent said:
Yeah, it's just weird how they keep on being mentioned without elaboration or meaning. Like, even if they're fake, it seems like there'd be a push for some inventive fakery with making up an entire pantheon of them.[1] Which does also run into the problem of, "Wait, so there's the Seers, who believe in inscrutable beings in the Supernal...and then the Diamond does too?" And I don't think it really makes a, "They're the same" point well, either, which is what they might have been going for. Might have, but it's not really something that's needed, I don't think. The real similarity would be in other areas, and so having that one parallel just feels weird.

[1] I mean, IRL people spent a hell of a lot of time making Goetic demons despite them, you know, not existing.

The second thing that gets confusing is because it's a possible thing to do. Like, maybe not "the Oracles" but Diamond Order Mages do become Archmasters and even Ascend, so even if it was a filthy, filthy lie, it seems like over time the Silver Ladder would work to sorta-kinda make it true. Admittedly it'd suck to be the first Diamond Archmaster to enter the Supernal and realize, "Oh, wait, I'm now 'The Oracles' all on my own...ow."
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The existence of the Exarchs isn't really supposed to be in doubt. There is definitely something imposing all that symbolic oppression on reality, even if they might not actually be Ascended Atlantian kings. The difference between the Seers and the Diamond is that the Diamond don't serve them.

There is a weird contradiction where Ascension isn't supposed to affect your personality, but somehow Ascended beings almost never bother to interact with the world. I'm really not sure what's supposed to be up with that.
 
tzar1990 said:
So, quick question: Let's say a Mage awakens, believing that the scientists are absolutely correct about the universe and that everything is ultimately deterministic, but also that we sometimes have a moral duty to act as though that is not the case. Someone who believes, for instance, that the brain is nothing more than an organic computer, but we should treat it as though it's somehow more than that, irreplaceable and unique. Who feels that the religions of the world are mistaken at best, but that the world would be lesser without them and that we need to respect that which is sacred. Who thinks that there's no such thing as fairies, psychics or ghosts, but that the world would be a grander and more wonderful place if they were real. Where do they end up?

Would they be able to fit into the traditions as some kind of weird techno-Hermetic? I mean, they'd definitely agree with the more moderate Traditionalists, but I'm not sure that they'd really be able to fit in, especially given their Paradigm. On the other hand, I could see them being a particularly heterodox 'crat if recruited the right way, although I'm not sure they'd be allowed to keep their personality (go go gadget Conditioning!)
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I'd say it depends on a few factors, 1) what exactly caused them to awaken, 2) who got to them first, and 3) how convincing they were, especially in light of the circumstances around their awakening.

Like, my Technocrat character was a pretty average American Catholic, at least from the range of my own personal experience with the group. So she balanced a belief in god with a belief that scientists were the ones who were figuring out all the answers and then had an overdeveloped sense of Justice ontop of that because that is just how some teens get.

And then she awoke because of some Ghouls trying to attack her family, killed them all, and then turned herself in tot he police because holy shit I just killed people. Then she became a technocrat because they got to her first and helped her justify her actions before selling her the line about how the Technocracy is the one keeping the world save from monsters like the things that tried to hurt her family and how they can always use bright new recruits like her.

At the same time though, from my understanding of the Euthanatos they could have pulled the same kind of trick off had they gotten there first and sent someone who was sufficiently charismatic/manipulative to convince her that they are the ones who are creating a better world by doing away with those who make it worse. Especially if he managed to slip in some biblical stuff as support.

So I think it'd be something similar with your theoretical guy. There is no real easy way to know where he ends up until you decide where he does, because so much of it depends on exactly what happens at his time of awakening and its immediate aftermath. Because depending on the circumstances either side could probably recruit him, and then after they do they'd work on slowly (or not so slowly) eroding his beliefs that don't quite fit their paradigm.
 
Skelm said:
There is a weird contradiction where Ascension isn't supposed to affect your personality, but somehow Ascended beings almost never bother to interact with the world. I'm really not sure what's supposed to be up with that.
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It's because once they get there they notice that everyone else that got there before them if metaphorically pointing a gun at them and each other.
 
tzar1990 said:
So, quick question: Let's say a Mage awakens, believing that the scientists are absolutely correct about the universe and that everything is ultimately deterministic, but also that we sometimes have a moral duty to act as though that is not the case. Someone who believes, for instance, that the brain is nothing more than an organic computer, but we should treat it as though it's somehow more than that, irreplaceable and unique. Who feels that the religions of the world are mistaken at best, but that the world would be lesser without them and that we need to respect that which is sacred. Who thinks that there's no such thing as fairies, psychics or ghosts, but that the world would be a grander and more wonderful place if they were real. Where do they end up?
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Probably an Orphan. In the game where I played Captain Sparta, someone played a dreamer who wanted to make anime fiction real (who also may or may not have been an Umbrood Lord in her dreams). It doesn't align perfectly with any Tradition. Also, the description doesn't say anything about paradigm, which is what ends up sorting you as much as basic ideals. To figure this out better, I have a few Elder Scrolls/Fallout-style chargen questions.

  • You are trapped in a burning skyscraper. It is a 50 meter drop from there to the ground. How does your character survive it?
  • You are awakened by a SWAT team hammering down your door. You reach under your pillow for something to help deal with this problem. What do you pick up and why?
  • You have created a work of finest artifice, a wonder which will bear your name and part of your will. What have you made?
 
The Laurent said:
I think that sometimes the drawbacks they give it are ones that aren't fully realized, or seem lightly brushed over in favor of talking about the cool weapons, honestly.
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Well, Mage is all about the philosophical knife fights, emphasis on the knife. Also I do have some ideas for Traditions stuff, although the "dragon tattoos, each covering 1 element, which each go on a different limb and turn you into Dragon Voltron if you score enough of them (with equivalent paradox) is on hiatus."
 
MJ12 Commando said:
Probably an Orphan. In the game where I played Captain Sparta, someone played a dreamer who wanted to make anime fiction real (who also may or may not have been an Umbrood Lord in her dreams). It doesn't align perfectly with any Tradition. Also, the description doesn't say anything about paradigm, which is what ends up sorting you as much as basic ideals. To figure this out better, I have a few Elder Scrolls/Fallout-style chargen questions.

  • You are trapped in a burning skyscraper. It is a 50 meter drop from there to the ground. How does your character survive it?
  • You are awakened by a SWAT team hammering down your door. You reach under your pillow for something to help deal with this problem. What do you pick up and why?
  • You have created a work of finest artifice, a wonder which will bear your name and part of your will. What have you made?
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So, assuming that like the Elder Scrolls / Fallout questions, these are about him before gaining phenomenal cosmic power,
  1. Grabs a conveniently-placed fire extinguisher and blows his way to a fire exit, then climbs down. If that's not possible, break a window, knot the blinds into a rope, and rappel down, stopping at a lower floor to grab more blinds if necessary.
  2. Does he know they're a hostile SWAT team instead of just burglars? If not, he grabs his wallet and phone, then runs to the back of the house and locks/barricades the door; if they start trying to force the door he'll climb out the window. If he does know he'll lock his laptop in a room and then set it on a Skype call with his cell phone, so he can be heard talking from inside and pretend to have barricaded himself there while sneaking out.
  3. Man, hard to say. It would have to be something high-tech, but also wondrous. I'm kinda imagining something like the fantasy game from Ender's Game, except more benign. A VR simulation that develops itself as you play it, acting as a combination counselor and coach, driving you to improve your real-life skills and overcome your flaws, while acting as an amazing adventure tailored to precisely what you find most fulfilling. That would, I think, speak to his desire for a more wondrous world while also feeling like he's actually made it a better place.
 
tzar1990 said:
So, assuming that like the Elder Scrolls / Fallout questions, these are about him before gaining phenomenal cosmic power,
  1. Grabs a conveniently-placed fire extinguisher and blows his way to a fire exit, then climbs down. If that's not possible, break a window, knot the blinds into a rope, and rappel down, stopping at a lower floor to grab more blinds if necessary.
  2. Does he know they're a hostile SWAT team instead of just burglars? If not, he grabs his wallet and phone, then runs to the back of the house and locks/barricades the door; if they start trying to force the door he'll climb out the window. If he does know he'll lock his laptop in a room and then set it on a Skype call with his cell phone, so he can be heard talking from inside and pretend to have barricaded himself there while sneaking out.
  3. Man, hard to say. It would have to be something high-tech, but also wondrous. I'm kinda imagining something like the fantasy game from Ender's Game, except more benign. A VR simulation that develops itself as you play it, acting as a combination counselor and coach, driving you to improve your real-life skills and overcome your flaws, while acting as an amazing adventure tailored to precisely what you find most fulfilling. That would, I think, speak to his desire for a more wondrous world while also feeling like he's actually made it a better place.
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He's a Virtual Adept

Sydonai said:
This doesn't actually look that impossible when you view it as multiple Archmasters having a pissing contest.
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What Arcana would you need in nMage to turn yourself into a sentient gun?
 
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MJ12 Commando said:
Probably an Orphan. In the game where I played Captain Sparta, someone played a dreamer who wanted to make anime fiction real (who also may or may not have been an Umbrood Lord in her dreams). It doesn't align perfectly with any Tradition. Also, the description doesn't say anything about paradigm, which is what ends up sorting you as much as basic ideals. To figure this out better, I have a few Elder Scrolls/Fallout-style chargen questions.

  • You are trapped in a burning skyscraper. It is a 50 meter drop from there to the ground. How does your character survive it?
  • You are awakened by a SWAT team hammering down your door. You reach under your pillow for something to help deal with this problem. What do you pick up and why?
  • You have created a work of finest artifice, a wonder which will bear your name and part of your will. What have you made?
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  • I jump through the window, a prayer on my lips, this is not my fate to die like this and I'm confident I'll survive the fall
  • The keys for my backdoor, a small reserve of food a cellphone and a map of the surroundings. How they came there, that's a mystery
  • A blade who cuts the links of sympathy between people. When used right it shatters painful memories, love who has run past its course, hatred gone unproductive. An abused child can destroy what chains him to his parents and the doomed hero from his forbidden love.
 
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