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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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So, one random idea for how to do Rotes in a system that doesn't have skills, only aspects, is...

Dice Pool: Gnosis+Sphere+Relevent Aspect.

Now, as a gaming system, it would fall apart because what the fuck is the relevant aspect? But since this would be a Quest, it could work. I need to brush up on Rotes and what they thematically involve/represent. I know they involve a set of actions, basically a spell that's done in a specific way. So, like, if you had a defining Aspect of Athlete, and the Rote involved, I dunno, stretching to unlimber to do better at sports, your pool would then be

Gnosis+Sphere+3

If you were just someone who occasionally worked out as a side hobby (minor aspect)

It'd be, like, Gnosis+Sphere+1. Which is still better than having to do it on its own, of course!
 
ManusDomine said:
Unless you play Awakening where magic follows symbolism logic, and even though you can technically make nuclear explosions at Matter 3 by Fraying the atoms, then you aren't allowed to do that because a nuke is *significant* and therefore the domain of Making/Unmaking and Dynamics.
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Yeah. But then your game grinds to a halt and becomes a massive argument between you, the players who have science degrees, and the players who have liberal arts degrees.
 
hyzmarca said:
Yeah. But then your game grinds to a halt and becomes a massive argument between you, the players who have science degrees, and the players who have liberal arts degrees.
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...um, not really? I mean, I'm pretty sure people can be willing to accept whatever rules are available.

Like, you don't see science nerds filibustering a Star Wars RPG until someone explains lightsabers in modern scientific terms.

Also, what's the 'liberal arts degree' comment? I assume it's some kind of pot-shot?
 
The Laurent said:
Also, what's the 'liberal arts degree' comment? I assume it's some kind of pot-shot?
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Against both sides. I've seen people surprised by the stuff that can be done with Matter 2 if they lacked chemical skill IRL. I've also seen people surprised about some uses of Mind 2-3 because they lacked a basic psychological education IRL.
 
vicky_molokh said:
Against both sides. I've seen people surprised by the stuff that can be done with Matter 2 if they lacked chemical skill IRL. I've also seen people surprised about some uses of Mind 2-3 because they lacked a basic psychological education IRL.
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Maybe, though with some of that, I think you have to apply the principle of charity, or the principle of, 'Really, we need to actually have a fucking game here, not a lecture.'

...I mean, which is an odd perspective for me to take, and makes me sound like Volante or something, but there we go.
 
The Laurent said:
Maybe, though with some of that, I think you have to apply the principle of charity, or the principle of, 'Really, we need to actually have a fucking game here, not a lecture.'

...I mean, which is an odd perspective for me to take, and makes me sound like Volante or something, but there we go.
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Every group has fun in their own way. I've seen groups which play convincing the court of something by rolling the dice and declaring success or failure; I've seen groups playing out such dialogues in full detail, thinking up arguments in their favour and analyzing counterarguments provided by NPCs. I've seen medical scenes played out as "I apply Physician and he gets better", and I've seen such scenes's outcomes hinge on the decisions of the medic's player about how to react to various symptoms and diagnoses and which options in his toolkit to apply. And I've seen magic done both as "this is magic, it defies explanation and resists attempts to apply it intelligently" and "your magical powers are modest, but think of indirect applications and they will serve you well". I've seen many people enjoy both.
 
hyzmarca said:
Nah, The fun thing is what happens when people figure out how Slashers work and try to create their own. Unlike other splats, Slashers are just normal humans who start killing people and get so good at it that they eventually gain supernatural powers. This would seem like the go to method of super-soldier creation for people who just can't get better splats for some reason.

Imagine if the real reason that ISIS performs brutal public executions is that they're trying to turn their executioners into Slashers.
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That's a brilliant and horrific strategy that could possibly not backfire.
Most slasher ought have military backgrounds.
Of course given how morality works for nWod you can't be a soldier without being a slasher.
Just a week in Somme and you'll have 6 derangements and be completely unable to function.
Thus we must conclude all soldiers who don't go mad by month's end must be slashers.
 
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Generalissimo said:
That's a brilliant and horrific strategy that could possibly not backfire.
Most slasher ought have military backgrounds
Of course given how morality works for nWod you can't be a soldier without being a slasher.
Just a week in Somme and you'll have 6 derangements and be completely unable to function.
Thus we must conclude all soldiers who don't go mad by month's end must be slashers.
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Wouldn't they have this new-fanged Hunter thing where they get to say "those are enemies, they aren't really persons, and thus don't trigger degeneration" after boot camp in CoD terms?
 
vicky_molokh said:
Wouldn't they have this new-fanged Hunter thing where they get to say "those are enemies, they aren't really persons, and thus don't trigger degeneration" after boot camp in CoD terms?
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So you're saying most soldiers are Hunters?
I have a vague lingering unspecific feeling that's a bad thing.
Anybody care to speculate why?
 
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Generalissimo said:
So you're saying that all soldiers are Hunters?
I have a vague lingering unspecific feeling that's a bad thing.
Anybody care to speculate why?
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Well, not literally. Just looking for ways of making things work in the vague accordance to the rules of CoD. (Vague because I mostly deal with WoD crunch, and I dropped CoD at some point after the corebook.)
 
Hunter Codes are something you'd have to adhere strictly to for life.
Let's begin with a soldier's hunter code based on the opening lines of American military oath.

"I, Hunter O'Hunter, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

Sounds like a good place to begin.
Could reasonably get Hunter O'Hunter through fighting enemies of America without going mad.
Issues arise when a soldier's tour of duty is over.
Problem is you can't ditch a code without a lot of degeneration.
Hunter O'Hunter will be needing to vigorously defend Constitution of the United States forever.
It can also backfire spectacularly. . .
. . . depending on whom Hunter O'Hunter determines are foreign or domestic enemies of the Constitution.
 
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hyzmarca said:
Yeah. But then your game grinds to a halt and becomes a massive argument between you, the players who have science degrees, and the players who have liberal arts degrees.
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No it doesn't because I'm storyteller and I prevent those arguments by showing the very detailed examples in the books?

Nuclear Cascade is a Forces 6 effect, and thus we can conclude that it cannot be a Matter 3 effect because you need Archmastery to even try.

If the players who have science degrees didn't go cry in a corner when they realized that the Fallen World is literally the Fallen World, a shadow theater formed from the lights of five gleaming aspects of True Reality that it was long ago separated from by a dark rift of unreality, then I believe they are able to handle magic working by symbolism rules.

EDIT: Besides, I'm pretty sure that both @EarthScorpion and @Aleph are physicists, and since they aren't insisting how Matter 3 can "totes make nuclear explosions gize" then I believe that I can safely say that this is most likely not what's going to happen.
 
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ManusDomine said:
No it doesn't because I'm storyteller and I prevent those arguments by showing the very detailed examples in the books?

Nuclear Cascade is a Forces 6 effect, and thus we can conclude that it cannot be a Matter 3 effect because you need Archmastery to even try.

If the players who have science degrees didn't go cry in a corner when they realized that the Fallen World is literally the Fallen World, a shadow theater formed from the lights of five gleaming aspects of True Reality that it was long ago separated from by a dark rift of unreality, then I believe they are able to handle magic working by symbolism rules.

EDIT: Besides, I'm pretty sure that both @EarthScorpion and @Aleph are physicists, and since they aren't insisting how Matter 3 can "totes make nuclear explosions gize" then I believe that I can safely say that this is most likely not what's going to happen.
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Flaying atoms is a bit esoteric compared to turn the water you're drinking into water that contains dissolved arsenic, though. And, to a lesser degree, turn that swiming pool full of water into a swimming pool full of nitroglycerine. Or turn all the water vapor in the air into gasoline vapor, which is explicitly possible using a Matter 2 rote.


Generalissimo said:
Hunter Codes are something you'd have to adhere strictly to for life.
Let's begin with a soldier's hunter code based on the opening lines of American military oath.

"I, Hunter O'Hunter, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

Sounds like a good place to begin.
Could reasonably get Hunter O'Hunter through fighting enemies of America without going mad.
Issues arise when a soldier's tour of duty is over.
Problem is you can't ditch a code without a lot of degeneration.
Hunter O'Hunter will be needing to vigorously defend Constitution of the United States forever.
It can also backfire spectacularly. . .
. . . depending on whom Hunter O'Hunter determines are foreign or domestic enemies of the Constitution.
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Republican Hunter: Hillary Clinton will destroy our Republic if she's elected. She must be stopped, no matter the cost. #NeverHillary
 
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ManusDomine said:
No it doesn't because I'm storyteller and I prevent those arguments by showing the very detailed examples in the books?

Nuclear Cascade is a Forces 6 effect, and thus we can conclude that it cannot be a Matter 3 effect because you need Archmastery to even try.

If the players who have science degrees didn't go cry in a corner when they realized that the Fallen World is literally the Fallen World, a shadow theater formed from the lights of five gleaming aspects of True Reality that it was long ago separated from by a dark rift of unreality, then I believe they are able to handle magic working by symbolism rules.

EDIT: Besides, I'm pretty sure that both @EarthScorpion and @Aleph are physicists, and since they aren't insisting how Matter 3 can "totes make nuclear explosions gize" then I believe that I can safely say that this is most likely not what's going to happen.
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Actually, I found a rather amusing RAW solution for that.

You have cast a spell to turn iron into uranium-235. Okay. We'll say that can be done

Then you try to induce fission.

Uh. But wait. There's a magic spell in place saying that this is uranium-235. So when you try to split the uranium atoms, nothing happens. Because there's a spell saying that this is uranium. And splitting the atom would make it not uranium any more, so the spell stops it from becoming not-uranium.

After all, the duration of the effect is ongoing; it's not permanent. There's active magic keeping the material as uranium. You can't say "this is uranium for as long as I need it to be, but then each atom stops being uranium when I want it". Not at Matter 2.

And that's a strictly RAW physics and mechanics based reading that forbids it.
 
hyzmarca said:
Flaying atoms is a bit esoteric compared to turn the water you're drinking into water that contains dissolved arsenic, though. And, to a lesser degree, turn that swiming pool full of water into a swimming pool full of nitroglycerine. Or turn all the water vapor in the air into gasoline vapor, which is explicitly possible using a Matter 2 rote.
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...No?

Transforming a substance is always done with Patterning. Or are we talking CWoD?
 
Hmm, I'll again repeat the general question: If I wanted to read as much as I could about rotes both mechanically and thematically, which 1e book would be the best to buy? The corebook? Is there some side-thing that talks about how this stuff works?[1]

[1] I think I remember something...?
 
EarthScorpion said:
Actually, I found a rather amusing RAW solution for that.

You have cast a spell to turn iron into uranium-235. Okay. We'll say that can be done

Then you try to induce fission.

Uh. But wait. There's a magic spell in place saying that this is uranium-235. So when you try to split the uranium atoms, nothing happens. Because there's a spell saying that this is uranium. And splitting the atom would make it not uranium any more, so the spell stops it from becoming not-uranium.

After all, the duration of the effect is ongoing; it's not permanent. There's active magic keeping the material as uranium. You can't say "this is uranium for as long as I need it to be, but then each atom stops being uranium when I want it". Not at Matter 2.

And that's a strictly RAW physics and mechanics based reading that forbids it.
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... Wait, so what happens if you transmute a contiguous quantity of uranium whose overall mass exceeds that necessary for criticality to be achieved? Does local reality collapse into the Abyss as the paradox of "this is how the Fallen World works" vs. "this is not how Supernal bullshit works" forces the uranium to become vulgar-as-shit, physics-raping "noncritical uranium" or something, creating an ongoing heap of uncontrolled Sorcerous bullshit that draws the Abyss like a flare painted against a starless night sky?
 
GardenerBriareus said:
... Wait, so what happens if you transmute a contiguous quantity of uranium whose overall mass exceeds that necessary for criticality to be achieved? Does local reality collapse into the Abyss as the paradox of "this is how the Fallen World works" vs. "this is not how Supernal bullshit works" forces the uranium to become vulgar-as-shit, physics-raping "noncritical uranium" or something, creating an ongoing heap of uncontrolled Sorcerous bullshit that draws the Abyss like a flare painted against a starless night sky?
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Nah.

It's just non-radioactive uranium. It can't decay, you see, because it can't stop being uranium.

If a Sleeper knows enough about that to call bullshit, Disbelief unravels the spell and then they go "Huh, silly me, I thought this was uranium but it was actually just scrap iron. Duh. I'm a fucking moron who's been watching too much 24 if I think I'll find some fucking uranium here. Urgh, I need a drink".
 
EarthScorpion said:
Uh. But wait. There's a magic spell in place saying that this is uranium-235. So when you try to split the uranium atoms, nothing happens. Because there's a spell saying that this is uranium. And splitting the atom would make it not uranium any more, so the spell stops it from becoming not-uranium.
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Wouldn't this mean that if you use Matter to turn water in nitroglicerine, it would be non-volatile nitroglicerine, since it would stop being nitroglicerine if it exploded?

Or does that only apply at the atomic level, and not at the molecular one?
 
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