Remind me, isn't this what happened in MCWoD?

MCWOD never had a Masquarade. The supernatural splats just showed up last Tuesday, thanks to big apocalypse event. So like, you can't have ancient vampire conspiracies, because the oldest vampires in setting have been vampires for less than a year. And the same is true for every other splat.

I am very well aware of this.

It's still a bullshit argument, because we are comparing Dominate, an explicitly supernatural power to Marksmanship, a mundane Fighting Style with negligeble requirements, while giving one of them the Prince status and not anything to the other, so if you have to give those to the vampire in order to make it fair, then... You haven't really accomplished anything?

"A vampire prince with several dots of Dominate can beat a Mage that has buffed his Composure to 10 in order to abuse the shit out of a broken Fighting Style in these specific circumstances" is not a good argument, because if we argue from this, I'll point out that this Mage might as well be Hierarch of the local Consilium and have a Potency 10 Mind Shield running all the time to complement his supernatural Composure and suddenly it's skewed completely in the Mage's favor by giving him the same playing field as the vampire.

[/Sarcasm]So congratulations for "proving" that you need to be a vampire prince with Dominate in order to fight a random Mage with a Fighting Style.

I was assuming vampire vs vampire.
 
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For the sake of this thought experiment let's say the collective Masquerade's of every splat but Demons and Beasts in the Chronicles of Darkeness became shattered. How would you fluff out the world now?
 
Couldn't Mr McOptimizedForDominate Dominate someone who was optimised for investigation?
Miss McOptimizedForInvestigation would probably be sufficiently aware of Mister McOptimizedForDominate know he exists long before he know she exists? People continuously underestimate investigation builds compared to folks optimized for socialization or fighting. "Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril." - Art of War

Identifying threats and preparing accordingly should never be underestimated!
 
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And you might not be able to use all of those people due to concentration of force, whereas I with 10 attacks can gleefully murder more people than a battallion in their toilets.
Eh. Fair.

Also, it's impossible to use it to get 10 attacks without being a mage with Mind 3, so I could just like, ritual cast Diplomat's Protection on myself with like 11 successes on Potency and watch as no one with a Resolve or Composure below 11 are able to take aggressive actions against me. :V
This, however, is wrong. There just isn't a power written up that does so; that doesn't make it impossible. IIRC developing custom disciplines is a thing in both new and old WoD, so you could do that. Of coursze, that depends on you being specialized in both Dominate and Auspex, then spending character resources to turn your Conditioned soldiers into a hivemind under your control. But if you are, you could plausibly do so.
 
For the sake of this thought experiment let's say the collective Masquerade's of every splat but Demons and Beasts in the Chronicles of Darkeness became shattered. How would you fluff out the world now?
"I, for one, welcome our new arcane overlords."

Unless you hit Mages with the "nope, sorry, only your minor template exists" stick.
 
For the sake of this thought experiment let's say the collective Masquerade's of every splat but Demons and Beasts in the Chronicles of Darkeness became shattered. How would you fluff out the world now?

That depends on how the different splats handle things.

For vampires, I'm going to assume that they ride the Twilight/True Blood/Vampire Diaries/Interview card, hard. We're just a misunderstood minority that's totally romantic and has gay sex with Brad Pitt. Smart vampires go public themselves and make it a civil rights case. They play the media and manipulate the court of public opinion in their favor. Stupid vampires go all bow down to me and I'll eat you last, and die horribly. Vamps in between go to great lengths to keep their true natures a secret. This particularly includes elders who might have problems with the IRS if they knew the truth. So you've got vampires publicly being upstanding citizens, and they come down hard on ones who slip.

Werewolves have things a lot easier and simultaneously a lot harder. People know about the spirit world, now, and that makes their jobs somewhat easier. It also means that governments will want to impose legislation on spirits and spirit-corporeal interactions, which risks miring werewolf packs in red tape.

Things get a bit more complicated for Changelings. Some of them decide to sue their fetches to get their lives back, and the courts have to decide who actually has the right to it. This goes all the way to the Supreme Court. Many also get restraining orders against their keepers, logically.

Prometheans have things easier, and have a legitimate way to apply for welfare benefits and government services. They still have to keep moving, though, because of disquiet.

The Ashwood Abby all go to prison. All of them. Otherwise, Hunters have to adjust to the new status quo. Taskforce Valkyrie and the Vanguard Serial Crimes Unit do this best, as they're already government agencies. They just have to work with stricter rules and oversight. Other Conspiracies and Compacts have a more difficult time with it.

Company Zero gets a lot of medals, after their exploits are declassified.

And the Seers of the Throne just win. Better the devil you know than the promise of a better world, maybe, someday.
 
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Eh. Fair.


This, however, is wrong. There just isn't a power written up that does so; that doesn't make it impossible. IIRC developing custom disciplines is a thing in both new and old WoD, so you could do that. Of coursze, that depends on you being specialized in both Dominate and Auspex, then spending character resources to turn your Conditioned soldiers into a hivemind under your control. But if you are, you could plausibly do so.

Sure, if we involve homebrew it becomes possible, and I don't feel like including hypothetical Devotions or Disciplines in a debate because they make everything possible.
 
It's more that the society of Wraiths has forsaken Transcendence...

Actually its more like Stygia has forsaken Transcendence. Other groups within the Western Lands of the Dead haven't necessarily. For the Ferrymen, a very powerful group in the Underworld, helping others achieve Transcendence is primary purpose. The various Renegade and Heretic groups are numerous and diverse enough that while some may reject, others embrace it.

And that does not prevent individual wraiths from pursing it even if they are apart of the Hierarchy of Stygia.

that the good things in life are made out of the suffering of others (like an ashtray made of Sam Haight)

Yeah and like I said, there's a surface of grimdark and bleakness to WtO. Soulforging and Moliate is part of it. Though it is worth noting that much of the soulsteel is made of Drones, wraiths that lack sentience and mindless echo their deaths until they are completely destroyed or dragged into Oblivion and turned into specters.

And of course it doesn't account for Relic items which aren't made of soulsteel.

If I recall correctly, the reforged ghosts still suffer, just like those in Soulsteel in Exalted, right? (I may be mistaken on that part.)

It's never been made clear. Option is divided as to whether or not soulsteel is aware or if the weeping is merely an echo of what it was or just a trait of soulsteel.

And I know WtO has its bright sides. But they seem more like consolation prizes, judging by the information I was given.

On the surface, you're right but you have actually have to start exploring the material to see it.

For example, the Silent Legion, the Legion of those that took their own lives, is easily the most Angst-ridden and hopeless of the Legions as they're the ones that sought death to escape the agony, whether real or perceived, of their lives only to find that life after death wasn't any better. Yet it is also the largest suicide prevention network in the entire WoD. Sure, they try to rationalize it as depriving potential tools to Oblivion but in reality for many its because they've gone through it and realized that suicide wasn't the answer to their problems and don't want others to repeat their mistakes.

One of my favorite characters in all of the WoD is Erik, an ordinary office worker that died in an accident outside his workplace and his wraith stayed there, too afraid to leave, watching the Shadowlands and Skinlands from the windows. Until the day he sees a woman he had been crushing on get snatched by some Legion wraiths, compelling him to finally leave the building and find her. His adventures are explored through the fiction of various WtO books and he is the final thing we see in WtO. The last pages of Ends of Empire, the WtO finale is Erik finally finding the woman and introducing himself to her. Literally the final words of WtO are: 'Hi. My name's Erik. What's yours?' The darkest line of the WoD ends on a note of hope. Even the line-ending adventure ends on a hopeful note. Despite the City of Stygia being destroyed, Charon Transcending and the Deathlords likewise gone, the hordes of Oblivion were stopped and the PCs have become the new Deathlords, leaving them in the position of forging a new Stygia.

But WtO seems to be more about just walking away from the bad stuff, while bad stuff remains; you can achieve Transcendence, but the Wraith society will remain rotten to the core.

The Hierarchy... well it depends on the perspective. Some paint it as corrupt tyranny bent on maintaining its power and will, others as well-meaning but flawed and bloated bureaucracy that is bent on trying to keep its citizens safe even if it means restoring to less savory methods.

Though I will admit, the Smiling Lord, the Deathlord of the Grim Legion is a treacherous asshole.

And Wraith Society is not the same as the Hierarchy. Hell even in the Necropoli controlled by the Hierarchy, the local government can vary wildly from Necropolis to Necropolis. Some are oppressive, some are tolerant. Some are corrupt, some aren't.

This is also why I see Ascension as a much brighter win condition.

Expect that outside of the game-ending Ascension, it isn't achievable.

Oh, I realize that MtA involves fighting against some powerful enemies. But the prospective of giving Ascension to humanity seems like the exact opposite from stepping away from it.

Expect that isn't really something most mages are striving for. Sure, the Technocracy's grand goal is that or at least their interpretation of it but for the Traditions? Not really. Certainly some advocate for that but many don't. Many Traditionalists tend to care more about their Magic, their own struggles against their enemies, etc. Hell they don't even have a solid idea about what Ascension is, much less how to achieve it.
 
How would you guys run a game where the masquerade has fallen? Either WoD or Chronicles.
Which setting are you focusing on? That's probably the biggest question as to how things go down. Most of the gamelines have mutually exclusive views as to how everything works.

By default, in both settings Mages have a significant advantage in that they're the most mechanically powerful splat (aside from maybe Demons) and they're the only ones with a global government worth the name (in the Technocracy and the Seers respectively.)
Not to mention the question of How Much is known.

W:tA where everyone is aware that there are short-tempered furry tree-huggers out there and Delirium is shut down plays a lot differently than W:tA where everyone is aware that there are short-tempered furry tree-huggers out there, Delirium is shut down, and there are Major League Cosmic Horrors backing several major corporations (against which the furry tree huggers tend to direct their violence).
 
Expect that isn't really something most mages are striving for. Sure, the Technocracy's grand goal is that or at least their interpretation of it but for the Traditions? Not really. Certainly some advocate for that but many don't. Many Traditionalists tend to care more about their Magic, their own struggles against their enemies, etc. Hell they don't even have a solid idea about what Ascension is, much less how to achieve it.
This seems to be a matter of great arguments here. But so far, in both MtA campaigns of my experience, the Traditions are striving towards a world in which all nine paradigms (and perhaps more) are globally accepted and Awakening is , while the Technocracy seems more about letting Sleepers sleep while manipulating them from the top.
Maybe this depends on what books one reads and which parts of them are to be believed, and how much of it is extrapolated in which direction.
 
This seems to be a matter of great arguments here. But so far, in both MtA campaigns of my experience, the Traditions are striving towards a world in which all nine paradigms (and perhaps more) are globally accepted and Awakening is , while the Technocracy seems more about letting Sleepers sleep while manipulating them from the top.
Maybe this depends on what books one reads and which parts of them are to be believed, and how much of it is extrapolated in which direction.

The Technocracy's endgoal is to make the Consensus match the Technocratic Paradigm. In that way, there will be no difference between the Sleepers and the Awakened, because anything that an Awakened Technocrat could do a Sleeper would also be able to do, by dint of those things being baked into the Consensus.

This is effectively the same as mass Awakening along Technocratic lines. However, in method it is much different.


The difference between the Technocratic and Tradition end goals is Stability vs Freedom. A stable reality vs freedom of belief, in this case. The big problem with the Traditions is that they're not compatible with each other, when you get down to it. The Celestial Chorus's Angels Did It paradigm and the Dreamspeakers 's The Spirits Did It paradigm are barely compatible because you might be able to justify the spirits as angels and vice versa. But neither are remotely compatible with Luminiferous Ether, Bitches!

The actual end result of having the Tradition's party line paradigms all accepted is a world where the laws of physics change radically depending on who is standing near you.

So you might go to China and spend years learning the Iron Shirt Technique at a Buddhist Monastery, only to return to America and get shot to death by a random punk because Americans don't believe in the Iron Shirt Technique.
 
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The Ashwood Abby all go to prison. All of them.
Nothing of value was lost.

Otherwise, Hunters have to adjust to the new status quo. Taskforce Valkyrie and the Vanguard Serial Crimes Unit do this best, as they're already government agencies. They just have to work with stricter rules and oversight.
Government bureaucracy and oversight for everyone!
VASCU can finally get enough resources to finally do something about Slashers of Hunt Club?

Other Conspiracies and Compacts have a more difficult time with it.
Compacts that could reasonably come out ahead with disclosure
Barrett Commission becomes legislative caucus with emphasis on supernatural accountability?
Null Mysteriis becomes part of scientific establishment?
Network Zero can be smug about being proven right on everything?
Maiden's Blood Sisterhood/Pi Alpha Kappa might be a more popular sorority?
Habibti Ma/Mothers Against Cult Activity work treating victims of mind control and ghouls becomes legitimate charity?
Union might proliferate with neighborhood watches keeping eye on supernaturals?

Compacts with mixed reception after disclosure
Ahl al-Jabal do great work but operate in a horrible part of the world - their geography is against them?
Talbot Group are proven fundamentally wrong about werewolves but plenty of people with spiritual exposure need therapy?
Long Night making the occasional monster human again is a BIG DEAL yet bouts of radicalism won't be tolerated?
Night Watch might be popular in segments of desperate public but authorities never tolerate such blatant vigilantism?
 
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Nothing of value was lost.

Government bureaucracy and oversight for everyone!
VASCU can finally get enough resources to finally do something about Slashers of Hunt Club?

Oddly enough, I think that Slashers would come out better than the other splats. They're superficially indistinguishable from mundane serial killers, and thus won't have a high priority compared to dealing with the obvious monster splats. And those Slashers that are undeniably supernatural are likely to be mistaken for members of other supernatural groups. Like, who in the hell is going to think that Freddy Kruger and Jason Vorheese are the same type of being? Freddy is obviously some type of Nightmare spirit and Jason an asshole Geist.
 
So, I talked about maybe doing some Promethean stuff, so I've been thinking about potential "shorthand" splat backgrounds. Basically, as I see it, chargen exists in half to establish the tone of the game and give the quest-runner plot hooks that won't surprise the players when they come up.

So I have three of the basic splat concepts in.

The Frankensteins said:
The story of Frankenstein and his monster is true. The creature still walks the earth, and he has made progeny. The Wretched are stitched together from many corpses. Yellow bile flows through their veins, making them choleric and ambitious. Some give up on trying to become human and revel in their rage, but others channel it to become the greatest of heroes.

They are often made from the best physical parts that their maker can acquire, but these are mismatched. They are seldom attractive conventionally, but their driven nature gives them a frightful allure. When the truth of their nature is revealed, then the stitches, the corpse pallor and the electrical contacts and bolts can be seen.

The Latter-Day Bride
Victoria's maker was the Monster himself. The first of the Wretched. He still roams the earth, and he has tried to make other Brides since his first, disastrous attempt. Victoria is just the latest, and she has heard his rambling, extemporised speeches. She knows he made her to try to capture the end of WW2, incarnate in flesh - and he considers her a failure.

Then came the montsers, and the row, and the firestorm, and the mob. She left beneath a storm-wracked sky as the building burned behind her. She doesn't know if the Monster still lives - but in her gut, she is certain that he's still out there. It's not him she's scared of, though. It's her elder 'sisters'. The true failures.

Keywords: Bride of Frankenstein, Well-Informed on the Promethean Condition, Sins of the Father

The Experiment
Dark things were happening towards the end of the war. Someone in the British Government had acquired some of Victor Frankenstein's notes. On a remote island in the north of Scotland, the Victory Project was working on something. Living weapon. Superhumans. A new man and a new woman. Adam and Eve.

Things went horribly right on the last day of the war, when the switches were thrown and the generator pumped tamed lightning into the sewn-together corpses. But their Eve woke in a mad, pain-filled rage and smashed her way out. She threw herself into the waters of the North Sea, and the body was never found. Their Adam became a monster, shedding his skin and becoming something they had no name for. Officially, the experiments were a failure and were shut down now that the Germans were defeated.

Officially.

Keywords: First Of Her Line, Made from Perfect Physical Specimens, Hunted by the Military

The Galeteids said:
The myths say that Pygmalion made a woman from marble, and the gods raised her to life in recognition of his virtue. But the Muses were never made from stone, and their bright red blood burns with the fire that Prometheus stole. Their sanguine nature leaves them courageous and passionate, but also prone to fixation and obsession. The ones among them who discard the search for humanity might have inspired many of the myths of vampires.

A corpse that would become a Galeteid must be flawless, undamaged and perfect. Only such a vessel will accept the stolen fire of the gods. Alas, such fire was not meant for mortals and so the true nature of a Muse is a creature of colourless artifice; ebony, ivory and marble.

The Beloved
Victoria's body wasn't nobody. It was somebody. She had a family. She had children. She had money, and lots of it. And then her maker… acquired the body. Not legally. Maybe they murdered her. Maybe they 'just' stole the body before anyone realised she was dead. After all, she wasn't a saint. She liked her morning pick-me up. And only poor people are drunks; the minor aristocracy are merely inebriated before noon.

But now there's a bereaved family looking for a wife and mother. A family with no small amount of resources and influence, fuelled by grief.

Keywords: Blends Into Society, Inherited Connections, Family Wants Her Back

The Angel-Marked
An angel whispers to her maker. Tells them to pick a woman to make a child. Ruins the woman's life. Tells them everything they need to do. Kisses her on the lips and tells her that she will do great and terrible things, just as her vision fades. Something of the angel has left itself with Victoria. She's wracked by visions that hover between ecstasy and madness. Her maker is scared of Victoria, tells her that the angel wore her form.

Only… sometimes angels and devils are very hard to tell apart.

Keywords: The Fire Burns Bright, Guardian Angel Or Possibly Devil, Slightly Mad

The Osirans said:
Eldest of the known Promethean lineages, the Osirans claim that Osiris was first of their line. Osiris, murdered and cut into many pieces; Osiris, restored to life. The humour of phlegm dominates them, leaving them dispassionate and cold. Water flows in their veins, infused with the essence of godhood. They find it hard to feel, and this sets them apart from humanity.

Just as it was for Osiris, so it is for his line. Their maker cuts the body into many pieces, and discards one, before sewing it back together. Then the body must be desiccated and bound and mummified. This is no small investment, which is one of the many reasons why the Osirans do not casually make more of themselves. Beneath the illusions, a dried corpse walks among the living.

The Willing Participant
What kind of woman would willingly let herself be murdered and cut apart, all to make an animated dessicated corpse? That's a question Victoria has to answer for herself - but the fact is, the woman whose body she was made from chose this path. She was a scholar, yes, and obsessed with the Egyptians. Maybe she thought that was the path to immortality.

Well, Victoria isn't that woman - though sometimes some of her memories creep in. She knows more about the occult and Egyptology than she should. And there's a nagging sense of doubt about that sense of belonging.

And then the first letter arrives. From a conspiracy that thinks it's addressing the former occupant of the body.

Keywords: Memories from the Past, Occult Knowledge, Web of Conspiracy.

The Computer
Victoria's creator stumbled into something bigger than they expected. They made their new child from a computer. Not a mechanical one, no - a maths graduate who had been working on a government project. That woman had a security clearance. That woman was working at Bletchley Park.

As a result, the government is very much interested in her location. And she's got criminal charges hanging over her head due to the way she vanished. Fortunately for her, Victoria might not have the woman's memories, but she has all her brains. She will need them.

Keywords: Exceptionally Intelligent, Problem Solver, Arrest Warrant With Her Face On It

I always find it harder to come up with Tammuz concepts, but I'm working on them.

So, essentially, there'll be a selection of "plot-hook laden backgrounds" - with the option for write-ins.

Then after that, there's a number of "formative experiences" questions that people get to provide write-ins for, without the promptings (but there may be suggestions).

As for the way "powers" are going to work, it's going to be a question of Refinements. Dots in a Refinement unlock all the associated powers from the linked Transmutions. But since that's going to be handled by the narrative, functionally the players don't have to memorise it (but can if they want to, for write-ins). For each sub-story, basically only expect to get a single dot in a Transmution in downtime - but that significantly enhances the player.
 
By the way, for my own potential Quest, for the ones that can be Hunter, are there any other of the options (it's buried a way's back) that someone wants to see given a character sheet write-up?

Also, still asking/thinking about Rotes...
 
I love it, I like military conspiracies and shadowy government experiments like MKULTRA or Stargate Project.

They're lovely.

Well, this is WW2-era government conspiracies using Victor Frankenstein's notes, so shit's probably a lot more diesel-punk mixed with Paracelsus [1]. And big military generators running currents through alchemical mixes made using WW2 chemical knowledge. And since it's a British conspiracy, it's probably a lot lower budget than an American conspiracy.

But, I can assure you, the number of shadowy men in suits sitting around a table in Whitehall is impeccable.

Most of the conspirators probably went to Eton, too.

[1] After all, remember, canonically in Promethean Mary Shelley was told the story of Frankenstein by the Bride, the first Wretched sublimatus.
 
Well, this is WW2-era government conspiracies using Victor Frankenstein's notes, so shit's probably a lot more diesel-punk mixed with Paracelsus [1]. And big military generators running currents through alchemical mixes made using WW2 chemical knowledge. And since it's a British conspiracy, it's probably a lot lower budget than an American conspiracy.

But, I can assure you, the number of shadowy men in suits sitting around a table in Whitehall is impeccable.

Most of the conspirators probably went to Eton, too.

[1] After all, remember, canonically in Promethean Mary Shelley was told the story of Frankenstein by the Bride, the first Wretched sublimatus.

Still a military conspiracy which makes it awesome.

Look, you could write something with the premise of "secret spartan military conspiracy in Antiquity" and I'd probably be interested.

Which reminds me that I need to remind everyone of the existence of the Krypteia.

Spartan secret police yo.
 
no hyzmarca youre wrong

they cause fear and thus they are beasts

and anyone who attacks them or persecutes them is an evil mra

>:C

Freddy Kruger: Misunderstood hero. Truly, his persecution is a tragedy.

Nah, The fun thing is what happens when people figure out how Slashers work and try to create their own. Unlike other splats, Slashers are just normal humans who start killing people and get so good at it that they eventually gain supernatural powers. This would seem like the go to method of super-soldier creation for people who just can't get better splats for some reason.

Imagine if the real reason that ISIS performs brutal public executions is that they're trying to turn their executioners into Slashers.
 
Sure, if we involve homebrew it becomes possible, and I don't feel like including hypothetical Devotions or Disciplines in a debate because they make everything possible.
Sure, bringing it up as positive evidence of a claim is just miring things down. But you were making a strong claim of impossibility.

Saying that something is outright impossible for anyone other than Mages (who by nature have "make up a power" in their repertoire on a moment-to-moment basis) is denying the other splats even the option of R&D, while allowing it to the Mages.

A more reasonable claim would be that there aren't actually any vampires extant who can do so.
 
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