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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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Scia said:
Promethean is the most hopefull of all WoD games, it is the search for golconda, and the knowledge that yes it is possible to attain it and to reach a happy ending in the lifetime of your character/chronicle and that this is the defined end point of it.
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Oh, it has a win state, but that's the lack of the win state that puts me off.

First, the thorny road sounds really, really horrible compared to the road to, say, Ascension, though perhaps milder than the road to Transcendence (but then again WtO is the Dark Souls of known for being depressing in all sorts of ways). The main flaw of Prometheans sounds like the flaw of Gypsies, only ramped up by an order of magnitude. I would find the experience rather fun-ruining in a game, but this is almost surely my personal dislike for the experience of this sort of flaw.

Second, the win state sounds somewhat underwhelming. Of the 'become a real boy' win states, I very much prefer the ending of Short Circuit 2 to that of Pinocchio (I grew up watching both several times). Which of course would be out of place in Chronicles of Darkness, but at least letting them ditch their nastier flaw(s) and living like Mages / Ananasi while retaining their powers and memory would've been nice. But hey, I'm just not the target audience for Promethean as written. In fact, I'm at best a peripheral demographic as far as WoD audience goes, as I am only interested in playing small subsets of the setting.
 
By the way, any thoughts on how to do Merits in a stripped down, Aspect-related system?

Or, if you want to make an argument against the new trend for doing White Wolf Quests and the ilk (mostly Exalted, actually) using simplified/removed skills and Aspects, make that argument.

I need a system that both works, has some granularity, and yet...you know, it's for a Quest, so some things don't matter, though since it's for Hunter (this version of it at least) it definitely needs a very robust willpower system, which is why I was thinking about keeping the Nine Attributes even while I dropped the Skills.
 
AkatsukiL13 said:
As for being depressive, I thought much the same at first but when I began to explore WtO I began to see that the depressing aspect is in many ways the surface layer of the game. Yes, this is the game where the ultimate bad thing has happened to you, you have died. But at the same time it's about how you deal with the bad that has befallen you. And unlike every other WoD line, it has an achievable end game state, Transcendence. To achieve it requires the PC to address all the baggage of their life that held back their souls.

And I've heard from others that WtO is the inverse of CtD, which has a bright and cheerful surface covering a game that is actually bleak and depressing at heart.
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I actually don't think that "the ultimate bad thing has happened to you, you have died" is one of the depressive bits of WtO; the mind is retained, as is some sort of ability to do stuff. It's more that the society of Wraiths has forsaken Transcendence, and that the good things in life are made out of the suffering of others (like an ashtray made of Sam Haight). If I recall correctly, the reforged ghosts still suffer, just like those in Soulsteel in Exalted, right? (I may be mistaken on that part.)

And I know WtO has its bright sides. But they seem more like consolation prizes, judging by the information I was given. On the matter of CtD being dark under the bright surface: at least CtD is about trying to retain the good things, the idealism, the imagination; about fighting against the greyness of the bland and banal world; about maintaining a sense of wonder both in everyday life (like dreams and fun and stuff) and rare grand occasions (like the Moon Landing). But WtO seems to be more about just walking away from the bad stuff, while bad stuff remains; you can achieve Transcendence, but the Wraith society will remain rotten to the core. This is also why I see Ascension as a much brighter win condition.

ManusDomine said:
This is incorrect, there is plenty of a world in CofD, you just have to look for it.

In the Clanbooks of Vampire we see an emergent and unified setting, and Mage The Awakening is just as detailed, if not more so than Ascension, as @davebrookshaw can attest to.

While I don't know much about Forsaken, I do know that the wars and feuds depicted in War Against The Pure make for a plenty interesting world.
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Perhaps I'm misinformed. But my impression was that while VtM has concrete answers about the world, with actual significant people like Caine and Sasha Vykos, VtR is more like "your requiem may vary; here are some example characters which may or may not actually exist". Perhaps my [mis]impression is a result of osmotically absorbing lots of bits of flavour about WoD over the time of its existence, and judging CoD more by the first things in it and then abandoning it after not finding it interesting enough. (Incidentally, I prefer settings to be described in formats similar to that of Transhuman Space: Fifth Wave, which is already quite far from White Wolf style even in WoD. So, again, maybe I'm the problem, not the books.)
 
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The Laurent said:
By the way, any thoughts on how to do Merits in a stripped down, Aspect-related system?

Or, if you want to make an argument against the new trend for doing White Wolf Quests and the ilk (mostly Exalted, actually) using simplified/removed skills and Aspects, make that argument.

I need a system that both works, has some granularity, and yet...you know, it's for a Quest, so some things don't matter, though since it's for Hunter (this version of it at least) it definitely needs a very robust willpower system, which is why I was thinking about keeping the Nine Attributes even while I dropped the Skills.
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Well, for The Emperor Protects, I mostly just opted for a simplified format in order to save on my own book-keeping. Age of Bronze had an entire elaborate rewrite of the base system that simplified some areas and greatly expanded others (particularly the astrology stuff), and that eventually lead to me... well, getting stuck when it came to actually writing scenes involving the main character. Particularly combat.

The simplified system let's me say 'OK, the PC wants to do this, I will roll one set of dice and that will tell me whether or not she succeeds', at which point I can get back on with the writing.

That said, because the basis of the Quest is Exalted, I'm not really sacrificing a massive amount in terms of interesting details - the charms are all still there to have fun with and encourage voter investment, after all, and even after removing the ones that are most reliant on a non-existent system that still leaves hundreds of things to play around with.

In most of the World of Darkness systems, as I understand it the bulk of your powers are likely to be... relatively focused, I suppose might be the best way to describe it? An Exalted ability might have 20+ charms in it, and any given Exalted has 25 different abilities to potentially invest in, but in Vampire the Masquerade I know you have about eight or so disciplines with a maximum of five powers each, all arranged in a single tree. So there might not be as much need for a simplified basic system.
 
vicky_molokh said:
Perhaps I'm misinformed. But my impression was that while VtM has concrete answers about the world, with actual significant people like Caine and Sasha Vykos, VtR is more like "your requiem may vary; here are some example characters which may or may not actually exist". Perhaps my [mis]impression is a result of osmotically absorbing lots of bits of flavour about WoD over the time of its existence, and judging CoD more by the first things in it and then abandoning it after not finding it interesting enough. (Incidentally, I prefer settings to be described in formats similar to that of Transhuman Space: Fifth Wave, which is already quite far from White Wolf style even in WoD. So, again, maybe I'm the problem, not the books.)
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Oh, in this case you're completely right. CofD provides no hard answers.

By the way it's really nice that you just go "I'm the problem, not the books", because I've been dealing with people who insist it's the books for the entire week. :V
 
ManusDomine said:
Oh, in this case you're completely right. CofD provides no hard answers.

By the way it's really nice that you just go "I'm the problem, not the books", because I've been dealing with people who insist it's the books for the entire week. :V
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Well, yes, that's what I mean that there's less of a world in CoD than in WoD.

I fully admit that I'm a peripheral demographic as far as WW audiences go. I also think many of the well-known posters of the two WW threads here are a peripheral demographic, judging by how they dislike huge bits of WW work and presentation. Perhaps 'problem' is the wrong word. The point is that nobody (including me) should tell fans of a game line that they are having badwrongfun and should stop having fun with line N because line N has flaws X/Y/Z in the speaker's opinion. I mean sure, everyone is free to express opinions including that one, but I don't think it's very constructive to trumpet personal preferences as the One True Way to make things.
 
vicky_molokh said:
Well, yes, that's what I mean that there's less of a world in CoD than in WoD.

I fully admit that I'm a peripheral demographic as far as WW audiences go. I also think many of the well-known posters of the two WW threads here are a peripheral demographic, judging by how they dislike huge bits of WW work and presentation. Perhaps 'problem' is the wrong word. The point is that nobody (including me) should tell fans of a game line that they are having badwrongfun and should stop having fun with line N because line N has flaws X/Y/Z in the speaker's opinion. I mean sure, everyone is free to express opinions including that one, but I don't think it's very constructive to trumpet personal preferences as the One True Way to make things.
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vicky_molokh said:
Oh, it has a win state, but that's the lack of the win state that puts me off.

First, the thorny road sounds really, really horrible compared to the road to, say, Ascension, though perhaps milder than the road to Transcendence (but then again WtO is the Dark Souls of known for being depressing in all sorts of ways). The main flaw of Prometheans sounds like the flaw of Gypsies, only ramped up by an order of magnitude. I would find the experience rather fun-ruining in a game, but this is almost surely my personal dislike for the experience of this sort of flaw.

Second, the win state sounds somewhat underwhelming. Of the 'become a real boy' win states, I very much prefer the ending of Short Circuit 2 to that of Pinocchio (I grew up watching both several times). Which of course would be out of place in Chronicles of Darkness, but at least letting them ditch their nastier flaw(s) and living like Mages / Ananasi while retaining their powers and memory would've been nice. But hey, I'm just not the target audience for Promethean as written. In fact, I'm at best a peripheral demographic as far as WoD audience goes, as I am only interested in playing small subsets of the setting.
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Well for one you can maintain your memorys of your existence prior to becomming human, the hard divide is for the second edition stuff that is not well regarded for a number of reasons.
And in a way ascension is different from the pilgrimage as ascending yourself does involve cutting yourself off from the conflicts of socity, human distractions and all these other things that make you human while being a promethan is about gaining them. And you can have other prometheans as company or be in the road, Is that really so much worse then being around either people that are both less and more then youand can not understand how you are now , and how everyone that is like you has a vested interesd in you dying to compare it to Vampire?
And well in Promethean at least you are not getting hit with a Hit-Mark and "only" with a mob if you do something to disrupt the locals. And considering the bleakness of mage and the sleepers just wanting to sleep.

And you basically have one "X by night" book per gameline, and else the nwod is going for snapshots of locations and characters that sometimes are in a wide network, like with the clanbooks, or just examples of how the world is , puzzle pices without having the complete picture, but then that was after all also not the case in Masquerade or "South America has the Sabat.. uh that is all that we know about it exept for Mexico city" How many named Sabbat NPCs are there in the gamebooks that are not at the top of the Hieracy and have more then one line beyond those that are clanbook chars?

Basically you have a better feeling how the daily life is for a given member of the splat in the nwod on a equal world count, while you know more about the rulers of "states" in the owod.
But how often do these rulers matter for you in your daily life is the question.
Where you to write a book about being a american, would you spend more lines on the live of the president , or how it is to live as one from day to day and why and how you behave?
 
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Scia said:
Well for one you can maintain your memorys of your existence prior to becomming human, the hard divide is for the second edition stuff that is not well regarded for a number of reasons.
And in a way ascension is different from the pilgrimage as ascending yourself does involve cutting yourself off from the conflicts of socity, human distractions and all these other things that make you human while being a promethan is about gaining them. And you can have other prometheans as company or be in the road, Is that really so much worse then being around either people that are both less and more then youand can not understand how you are now , and how everyone that is like you has a vested interesd in you dying to compare it to Vampire?
And well in Promethean at least you are not getting hit with a Hit-Mark and "only" with a mob if you do something to disrupt the locals. And considering the bleakness of mage and the sleepers just wanting to sleep.
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Oh, I realize that MtA involves fighting against some powerful enemies. But the prospective of giving Ascension to humanity seems like the exact opposite from stepping away from it. Conversely, the Promethean quest seems to have a goal that is very similar to becoming a Sleeper, with perhaps a retention of memories of the time before. The other depressing thing (for me) about Promethean is that trouble is out to get you even if you stay out of trouble, with the way social disquiet and the walking wasteland effect seem to be described.


Scia said:
And you basically have one "X by night" book per gameline, and else the nwod is going for snapshots of locations and characters that sometimes are in a wide network, like with the clanbooks, or just examples of how the world is , puzzle pices without having the complete picture, but then that was after all also not the case in Masquerade or "South America has the Sabat.. uh that is all that we know about it exept for Mexico city" How many named Sabbat NPCs are there in the gamebooks that are not at the top of the Hieracy and have more then one line beyond those that are clanbook chars?

Basically you have a better feeling how the daily life is for a given member of the splat in the nwod on a equal world count, while you know more about the rulers of "states" in the owod.
But how often do these rulers matter for you in your daily life is the question.
Where you to write a book about being a american, would you spend more lines on the live of the president , or how it is to live as one from day to day and why and how you behave?
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I'm skimming the Donald/Hillary megathread, and it seems to me that who is in the presidential chair or the parliament is plenty relevant for citizens of the USA; I'm less knowledgeable about other Americans. As for 'South America has the Sabbat . . .' I remember maps detailing which areas were dominated by what factions in what years, and that's the sort of thing that affects personal lives of characters, for example. Those maps come from the history text in the wodbooks, right?

As for what I think a book about America (or any other location, really) be like . . . well, as I said, I consider Fifth Wave my ideal. It should describe the big differences in such a way that it can be seen how they affect everyday life. In VtM, I absolutely expect high-ranked NPCs (e.g. local Princes and that post that stands above princes that I don't remember the name of) to have an effect on everyday life of vampires.

Oh, for reference, here's an example from Fifth Wave:
FW65 said:
At the beginning of the century, Kazakstan faced seri-
ous problems: an unstable economy, ecological devasta-
tion left over from the Soviet era, and tensions between the
Russian and Kazak populations. Balanced against this was
significant oil and mineral wealth, along with partial con-
trol over the old Soviet launch facilities at Baykonur.
Faced with these challenges, Kazakstan struggled
along for several years. The last elected government fell to
an ethnic-Russian putsch in 2018, which seized control
with support from the military. By 2024, an oil tycoon
named Sergei Maksimovitch Zarubayev had outmaneu-
vered all his rivals and become the country's dictator.
In 2100, Zarubayev is still the absolute ruler of Kazak-
stan, having stayed in power through a combination of
physical longevity, clever politics, and utter ruthlessness.
More than any dictator in modern history, he has stamped
his personal vision on his own country. Ethnic Russians
form the elite of his state; non-Russians (and especially
Muslims) suffer vicious police-state oppression. Under
him, Kazakstan has meddled in politics all over central
Asia: supporting nationalistic movements in Russia, inter-
fering in the internal affairs of other post-Soviet states, rat-
tling sabers with China, and so on.
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This is, of course, an extremely short entry, because it comes from a book that touches upon 100-200 states, and a few cities in more detail, and a broad view of the world and society and extra future-history bits and and . . . more stuff. But if I was reading, for example, America By Night, I would hope to encounter at least this level of description about each sub-location (i.e. Quebec, Rio de Janeiro, NY-state, NY-city, DC, Durango etc.).
 
vicky_molokh said:
If I recall correctly, the reforged ghosts still suffer, just like those in Soulsteel in Exalted, right? (I may be mistaken on that part.)
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From what I've read, it isn't really given a hard answer. There's a major faction of Artificers who seem to think that the soulforged ghosts aren't aware in any way and that when the soulsteel evaporates it's like Transcendance, and nothing I've seen to indicate that they're wrong. Like, it's probably based in self-justification due to forging sapient beings into inanimate objects, but there isn't anything like "oh yes, ghosts made into soulsteel are trapped in eternal torment and vanish to Oblivion when they're destroyed" laid out.
 
vicky_molokh said:
Oh, I realize that MtA involves fighting against some powerful enemies. But the prospective of giving Ascension to humanity seems like the exact opposite from stepping away from it. Conversely, the Promethean quest seems to have a goal that is very similar to becoming a Sleeper, with perhaps a retention of memories of the time before. The other depressing thing (for me) about Promethean is that trouble is out to get you even if you stay out of trouble, with the way social disquiet and the walking wasteland effect seem to be described.



I'm skimming the Donald/Hillary megathread, and it seems to me that who is in the presidential chair or the parliament is plenty relevant for citizens of the USA; I'm less knowledgeable about other Americans. As for 'South America has the Sabbat . . .' I remember maps detailing which areas were dominated by what factions in what years, and that's the sort of thing that affects personal lives of characters, for example. Those maps come from the history text in the wodbooks, right?

As for what I think a book about America (or any other location, really) be like . . . well, as I said, I consider Fifth Wave my ideal. It should describe the big differences in such a way that it can be seen how they affect everyday life. In VtM, I absolutely expect high-ranked NPCs (e.g. local Princes and that post that stands above princes that I don't remember the name of) to have an effect on everyday life of vampires.

Oh, for reference, here's an example from Fifth Wave:


This is, of course, an extremely short entry, because it comes from a book that touches upon 100-200 states, and a few cities in more detail, and a broad view of the world and society and extra future-history bits and and . . . more stuff. But if I was reading, for example, America By Night, I would hope to encounter at least this level of description about each sub-location (i.e. Quebec, Rio de Janeiro, NY-state, NY-city, DC, Durango etc.).
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To be fair the GURPS team goes far and above when it comes to setting material. I've yet to see a source book that does a better job than any GURPS book I've had the pleasure of reading.
 
Quantumboost said:
From what I've read, it isn't really given a hard answer. There's a major faction of Artificers who seem to think that the soulforged ghosts aren't aware in any way and that when the soulsteel evaporates it's like Transcendance, and nothing I've seen to indicate that they're wrong. Like, it's probably based in self-justification due to forging sapient beings into inanimate objects, but there isn't anything like "oh yes, ghosts made into soulsteel are trapped in eternal torment and vanish to Oblivion when they're destroyed" laid out.
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Laid out, no. Strongly implied... yes. Soulsteel was intended to be an abomination, one your character would grow to accept as part and parcel of the horrors around her. Transcendence is something you personally achieve. Going to the Far Shores and letting go is something you work towards. Being turned into soulsteel involves being brutalized till your identity breaks down, then alloyed with the corrupt scrapings of the labyrinth depths till it becomes part of you.

There's a reason it still moans in agony.

Like, from a cynical perspective, it's better then letting someone fall to oblivion. Oblivion is slowly but steadily growing stronger as it feeds on existence... but even spectres have a path to redemption that has forever been closed to the forged.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Okay, the hell? For some reason your post was completely empty on the last page for a while, even after the page was loaded and I tried quoting you.
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No it wasn't. You haven't seen anything, move along citizen.


linkhyrule5 said:
Weird. Congratulations, you're a wizard and you broke SV. :V
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No I'm not, as my profile picture and title should tell you. :V

After all, would a wizard have both Exoskeleton and Exomuscle?
 
The Laurent said:
By the way, any thoughts on how to do Merits in a stripped down, Aspect-related system?

Or, if you want to make an argument against the new trend for doing White Wolf Quests and the ilk (mostly Exalted, actually) using simplified/removed skills and Aspects, make that argument.

I need a system that both works, has some granularity, and yet...you know, it's for a Quest, so some things don't matter, though since it's for Hunter (this version of it at least) it definitely needs a very robust willpower system, which is why I was thinking about keeping the Nine Attributes even while I dropped the Skills.
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Okay, here we need to separate STUFF Merits from TRAITS Merits.

Stuff like Iron Stomach or the Fighting Styles (and other Traits Merits) can go die in a dire fire. In fact, Fighting Styles can always go die in a fire.

On the other hand, things like Resources, Allies or Status totally should stay. They're just a handy way of noting down the character's position in the world. If they're rich, you're going to need to record "the character is rich" one way or another, so why not just mark it down as Resources?

Although if you're going in that direction, I would make them more like Liege and Infamy in Exalted - pooled merits that are linked to a position and the character can use one way or another.

Like, if a character has Business Executive 3, that lets them use that as Resources 3 from their salary, Status 3 in the company, Contacts 3 from associates in the same field, etc etc. Supernatural versions of that are even more flexible - Loyal Knight of The Summer Court can be used to get Mentor, Tokens, Allies, etc.
 
Merits that represent your relation to the world are great because they give you and the Storyteller something to do.

Merits that represent normal character+ should die in a fire because they don't do anything. No new opportunities and no new storylines.

Fighting styles should just die, because they're fighting styles. :V
 
TheLastOne said:
Laid out, no. Strongly implied... yes. Soulsteel was intended to be an abomination, one your character would grow to accept as part and parcel of the horrors around her. Transcendence is something you personally achieve. Going to the Far Shores and letting go is something you work towards. Being turned into soulsteel involves being brutalized till your identity breaks down, then alloyed with the corrupt scrapings of the labyrinth depths till it becomes part of you.

There's a reason it still moans in agony.

Like, from a cynical perspective, it's better then letting someone fall to oblivion. Oblivion is slowly but steadily growing stronger as it feeds on existence... but even spectres have a path to redemption that has forever been closed to the forged.
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I'll defer to your superior dots in Wraithlore, then.

(also because I prefer it that way)
 
Quantumboost said:
You're offering free enemas eh?

With a deal like that, who could say no?
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Know yourself, and know your enemas, and in 10,000 battles you shall be victorious!

On a more serious note, @Generalissimo, do you mean liking the concept or the execution? Because I found the execution horrible, but I think the niche is something that wants to be filled: differentiating two Str 2, Dex 5, Sta 2, Brawl 5 characters in combat is generally desirable. Whether or not it can be done with a good execution in CoD is a question to which I'm unsure about the answer.
 
EarthScorpion said:
If they're rich, you're going to need to record "the character is rich" one way or another, so why not just mark it down as Resources?
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Because it removes the fun of micromanaging your budget with endless tables of income sources and costs and a dollar price for every piece of equipment no matter how obscure?

Generalissimo said:
Rare occasion where I find mself agreeing with EarthScorpion.

Does anybody like fighting styles?
Nobody will begrudge you if you do.
Don't have to hide it from us!
Would be interesting to hear perspective of somebody who likes them.
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I like fighting styles. They help with the min-max trenchcoat samurai stuff and John: The Wicking.
 
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