Covered up canonically as a an India-Pakistan war with a rogue nuclear launch caused by false sensor data, I believe.

So. Yeah.
Jesus, that's what they covered it up as? Why?! The vampire god facts of the matter would be less damaging!

Hell, I would honestly prefer my odds if Cthulhu woke up than if India and Pakistan let fly mushroom clouds at each other.
 
Well most of the Damage was done in Bangladesh instead of the propper area so I think even most ofthe nukes where covered up with the typhone damage that costed over a million peoples live.
 
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Yeah, I got a few details wrong. Zapathasura wakes up in India, but the actual fighting takes place in Bangladesh, as @Scia points out. It is covered up as damage from a typhoon through the power of ~nwo~.
 
Jesus, that's what they covered it up as? Why?! The vampire god facts of the matter would be less damaging!

Hell, I would honestly prefer my odds if Cthulhu woke up than if India and Pakistan let fly mushroom clouds at each other.

Aren't nuclear weapons explicitly high level technomagic rotes that don't actually work in oWoD? Like, there was no danger of the cold war going nuclear without the Technocracy deciding to trigger it personally?
 
Aren't nuclear weapons explicitly high level technomagic rotes that don't actually work in oWoD? Like, there was no danger of the cold war going nuclear without the Technocracy deciding to trigger it personally?
... I seem to remember nukes explicitly called out as "the sleepers did this and totes surprised the technocracy."

also, given the penetration of the cold war into the public consciousness in the 80's nukes ought to be consensual by now even if they original weren't
 
Besides, anyone who's actually deep enough into nuclear physics to be on a nuclear weapons program is, like, at least good enough in the Path of Hellfire and the Path of Enchantment to make magic nukes with the sort of resources they get for that.
 
Last I heard, nukes were actually paradox engines which destroyed the local reality into oblivion.
 
... I seem to remember nukes explicitly called out as "the sleepers did this and totes surprised the technocracy."

Partly. The Technocracy isn't sure if nuclear weapons were created solely by the Sleepers or if they indirectly had a hand in it through their influence over the scientific community. They do know that they didn't directly help the Sleepers create it. In fact at that time there were locked such serious conflict with the Nephandi that they had for the first time teamed up with the Traditions, and I don't mean between a team up between individual cabals and amalgams but a full on Tradition-Technocracy Alliance, that they likely would not have been able to fully devote time and resources to such a project.

Last I heard, nukes were actually paradox engines which destroyed the local reality into oblivion.

Where did you hear that?
 
Partly. The Technocracy isn't sure if nuclear weapons were created solely by the Sleepers or if they indirectly had a hand in it through their influence over the scientific community. They do know that they didn't directly help the Sleepers create it. In fact at that time there were locked such serious conflict with the Nephandi that they had for the first time teamed up with the Traditions, and I don't mean between a team up between individual cabals and amalgams but a full on Tradition-Technocracy Alliance, that they likely would not have been able to fully devote time and resources to such a project.

Where did you hear that?

I kinda forgot, though it was most likely a Technocracy Book.

It posited that a nuke was so powerful and incomprehensible to the consensus that activating it resulted in destabilization and oblivion of local reality, and that the fallout is paradox as whatever remained of reality tried to make sense of it all. I could be wrong since it's a long time since I've read any Mage Ascension books.
 
I think I vaguely recall the nukes that they used on this occasion being called Spirit Nukes by people?

Not really sure though and I don't have the books to check.

Yep they were spirit nukes that fucked the world. There was an endless debate in Revised books if the Technocracy had acted well or if they had just waited one of the Kuei-jin was foretold to manage to destroy [Ravnos].
 
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Partly. The Technocracy isn't sure if nuclear weapons were created solely by the Sleepers or if they indirectly had a hand in it through their influence over the scientific community. They do know that they didn't directly help the Sleepers create it. In fact at that time there were locked such serious conflict with the Nephandi that they had for the first time teamed up with the Traditions, and I don't mean between a team up between individual cabals and amalgams but a full on Tradition-Technocracy Alliance, that they likely would not have been able to fully devote time and resources to such a project.

Yeah, but that's a really, really dumb bit of background.

The Manhattan Project cost $2 billion dollars (in 1940s money) and employed 130,000 people working in tens of factories. If you wanted a textbook definition of "Big government science" and didn't want to reach for CERN, you'd use that as an example. Nuclear weapons are a logical consequence of the atomic physics the Technocracy pushes, had been suggested as being theoretically possible before the war, and... honestly, if you wanted an example of "massive amounts of government spending and R&D assisted by top minds pushes something from a theory into a practical bit of technology", it's that.
 
So hey, I'm adapting MJ's old Mana writeup for my Visions of Brass, because I have... er, exactly the same problem he does with the sheer scarcity of quint versus how often you're expected to use the stuff. (Especially since they're most commonly used to supercharge magic.)

For the most part I can just use it, it's pretty well-written, but there's a bit I have problems with.

First:

  • Prime 4 allows a character to sacrifice objects to gain Quintessence. The sacrifice must have great value in-paradigm and will generate Quintessence equal to the sum total of Resources permanently burned during the scene. A Syndicate Enforcer who literally liquidates five million dollars will get 5 points of Quintessence (burning 5 dots of Resources). This is always vulgar and may only provide Quintessence once/scene.
Honestly, this is more a problem with the sacrifice rules in general. First, it doesn't seem like it leaves room for paradigms where sacrificing sentimental value is more valuable than material worth - a precious teddy bear that's Resources 1 if that, or whatever. Worse, though, it seems like a Syndic can get a functionally unlimited amount of Quint by sacrificing at values significantly below his wealth. A Resources 8 Syndic (liquid wealth in the tens of billions, in my system) could make a whopping ten thousand Resources 4 sacrifices - in practice, he ends up being a living Node that produces some varying amount of quint a week that depends on how often you let him sacrifice in real-time. Further, if he sacrifices more than Resources 4 at a time, he can negate his own paradox from that Rote and still come out ahead.

Now, this isn't necessarily a problem - Prime 5 lets you just conjure up quint from nothing, after all - though I'd at least like to know what the real-time limits are. But it also sets something of a precedent, since the principles of game design would suggest that the rules for gaining quint from sacrifices be balanced against sacrificing them directly for a ritual - and now we've got even low-ranking Technocrats sacrificing "expensive" Resources 3 bullets or whatever for charges, and by the Resources rules they can do that pretty much however often they want.

... In general, I feel like wealth should make sacrifices easier, but not to such a trivializing degree.

Also, just how common is Mana intended to be? I'm thinking about making a mana-as-motes model, where you can pretty trivially stunt back enough motes to stay mote-neutral unless you really need to burn power for a ritual - is that likely to break anything?
 
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A Resources 8 Syndic (liquid wealth in the tens of billions, in my system) could make a whopping ten thousand Resources 4 sacrifices - in practice, he ends up being a living Node that produces some varying amount of quint a week that depends on how often you let him sacrifice in real-time. Further, if he sacrifices more than Resources 4 at a time, he can negate his own paradox from that Rote and still come out ahead.

That actually goes against the syndic paradigm, btw. If Prime is Utility, the amount you get from sacrifice obviously depends of the person doing the sacrifice; If what you lose has lower utility for you, you get lower Prime.

(IE, a syndic finanancier gets less prime sacrificing 10.000 dollars than a middle class man doing the same).
 
That actually goes against the syndic paradigm, btw. If Prime is Utility, the amount you get from sacrifice obviously depends of the person doing the sacrifice; If what you lose has lower utility for you, you get lower Prime.

(IE, a syndic finanancier gets less prime sacrificing 10.000 dollars than a middle class man doing the same).
Fair, but then we have a corresponding weird problem where Syndics can only get quint in big chunks, or else actually has a harder time sacrificing enough to matter (especially since you usually can't liquidate that much money without crashing major bits of the local economy.)
 
A Resources 8 Syndic (liquid wealth in the tens of billions, in my system) could make a whopping ten thousand Resources 4 sacrifices - in practice, he ends up being a living Node that produces some varying amount of quint a week that depends on how often you let him sacrifice in real-time. Further, if he sacrifices more than Resources 4 at a time, he can negate his own paradox from that Rote and still come out ahead.

Uh. What the hell are you talking about?

The sacrifice must have great value in-paradigm and will generate Quintessence equal to the sum total of Resources permanently burned during the scene. A Syndicate Enforcer who literally liquidates five million dollars will get 5 points of Quintessence (burning 5 dots of Resources).

A Resources 8 Syndic who burns 4 dots of Resources is not a Resources 8 Syndic any more. He is a Resources 4 Syndic.

That's what "burned" dots mean. It means you're giving up those dots.
 
Uh. What the hell are you talking about?

A Resources 8 Syndic who burns 4 dots of Resources is not a Resources 8 Syndic any more. He is a Resources 4 Syndic.

That's what "burned" dots mean. It means you're giving up those dots.
Ahhh. Yeah that was not at all clear from the writing. And then you have to buy up those dots with xp again, I assume?

Okay, so on the one hand that makes much more sense, but on the other hand it actually makes sacrifice a bit more difficult than I'd like. Syndics should be able to spend money the way Verbena spend blood - easy come... not so easy go, since you can't heal the agg, but not something you need experience points to fix either.

Mm. Maybe something like the hl rules, where you can spend temporary dots of Resources that recharge at some rate (which kind of needs to be done anyway, since PU lets you recharge Resources with quint but doesn't actually have a system to hook into), but the quint gained in such a way dissipate at end of scene if unused?

I mean, the realistic solution looks something like "you can make as many Resources-2 purchases as you want, you can make Resources - 1 purchases once a month, Resources purchases actually degrade your rating,", and then you can spent quint to make more (Resources - 1) purchases... but that's starting to get more complicated than I really want to include.
 
Ahhh. Yeah that was not at all clear from the writing. And then you have to buy up those dots with xp again, I assume?

Okay, so on the one hand that makes much more sense, but on the other hand it actually makes sacrifice a bit more difficult than I'd like. Syndics should be able to spend money the way Verbena spend blood - easy come... not so easy go, since you can't heal the agg, but not something you need experience points to fix either.

Mm. Maybe something like the hl rules, where you can spend temporary dots of Resources that recharge at some rate (which kind of needs to be done anyway, since PU lets you recharge Resources with quint but doesn't actually have a system to hook into), but the quint gained in such a way dissipate at end of scene if unused?

I mean, the realistic solution looks something like "you can make as many Resources-2 purchases as you want, you can make Resources - 1 purchases once a month, Resources purchases actually degrade your rating,", and then you can spent quint to make more (Resources - 1) purchases... but that's starting to get more complicated than I really want to include.

If you want that, just do this-"sacrificed" resource dots come back at the rate of 1 per week. The Syndicate mage now gets like, a tiny drip of continuous quintessence from being able to constantly tie up his resources in Primal Ventures, but he can blow it all to get a larger infusion.
 
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