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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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My former Exalted GM (who ended the Exalted campaign for complicated reasons) is loading up on Mage lore to run an MtA campaign. To my surprise (given the very negative review by @Eukie), he found M20 to be reasonably helpful for getting reacquainted with the game line (he tried Mage a long long time ago before), at least lore-wise. I skimmed the book mostly for mechanics, found the mechanics rather horribly vague most of the time, told him about it, and he sorta swayed towards just using the Revised corebook with whatever edition Book of Shadows is for Merits and Flaws.

The campaign is being set in 1920s New York, which means that some extra research is necessary (e.g. Virtual Adepts apparently didn't join the Traditions yet), with minor to moderate canonadjustments in order to create a situation closer to a cold war rather than a hot one in the city. Either way, are there any books that can give more insight into the default state of the WoD during those years and that region?

Another question is regarding the role of Quintessence and the Avatar Background: I noticed some opinions on the Internet that starting out with Avatar 3-5 is absolutely necessary. I realize that Quintessence can provide a difficulty reduction and is required for creating Patterns from nothing, but am I missing something else very important about it? The only other application I remember from back in the day when I played Mage was that one of our PCs threw (highly vulgar, but aggravated) Prime Bolts. But I'm not planning to make any Patterns from nothing (not that kind of Sphere choice), and IME the difficulty reduction is too small a benefit given the fact that it takes weeks to restore Quintessence and given the fact that there are lots and lots of castings on a typical in-game day (it's nice, it's just not worth the huge cost). I seem to have a vague recollection of offsetting Paradox, but again, that seems like just too high a price against a few dice of (usually bashing) damage. (Note: the GM is planning to use the rule that there's only a 10% chance that a botch doesn't cause a backlashes; in the other 90% of botches, it discharges partially or fully). What am I forgetting/missing?
 
vicky_molokh said:
Another question is regarding the role of Quintessence and the Avatar Background: I noticed some opinions on the Internet that starting out with Avatar 3-5 is absolutely necessary. I realize that Quintessence can provide a difficulty reduction and is required for creating Patterns from nothing, but am I missing something else very important about it?
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Creating devices, negating paradox.

I strongly recommend to use MJ12 mana rules:

Tabletop - White Wolf's World of Darkness | Page 94
 
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vicky_molokh said:
My former Exalted GM (who ended the Exalted campaign for complicated reasons) is loading up on Mage lore to run an MtA campaign. To my surprise (given the very negative review by @Eukie), he found M20 to be reasonably helpful for getting reacquainted with the game line (he tried Mage a long long time ago before), at least lore-wise. I skimmed the book mostly for mechanics, found the mechanics rather horribly vague most of the time, told him about it, and he sorta swayed towards just using the Revised corebook with whatever edition Book of Shadows is for Merits and Flaws.

The campaign is being set in 1920s New York, which means that some extra research is necessary (e.g. Virtual Adepts apparently didn't join the Traditions yet), with minor to moderate canonadjustments in order to create a situation closer to a cold war rather than a hot one in the city. Either way, are there any books that can give more insight into the default state of the WoD during those years and that region?

Another question is regarding the role of Quintessence and the Avatar Background: I noticed some opinions on the Internet that starting out with Avatar 3-5 is absolutely necessary. I realize that Quintessence can provide a difficulty reduction and is required for creating Patterns from nothing, but am I missing something else very important about it? The only other application I remember from back in the day when I played Mage was that one of our PCs threw (highly vulgar, but aggravated) Prime Bolts. But I'm not planning to make any Patterns from nothing (not that kind of Sphere choice), and IME the difficulty reduction is too small a benefit given the fact that it takes weeks to restore Quintessence and given the fact that there are lots and lots of castings on a typical in-game day (it's nice, it's just not worth the huge cost). I seem to have a vague recollection of offsetting Paradox, but again, that seems like just too high a price against a few dice of (usually bashing) damage. (Note: the GM is planning to use the rule that there's only a 10% chance that a botch doesn't cause a backlashes; in the other 90% of botches, it discharges partially or fully). What am I forgetting/missing?
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You forget that base mage is lacking a rule to raise these start out backrounds so avatar has to work with you for the whole of your characters life for one.
Based on soem readings the using of qint to reduce difficult is cum ulative with that from using abilitys as long as you are not going over a net -3 acounting all raises and lowerings in TN, you also need quint to heal Agreavated damage or deal it. And Avatar is also the uppoer limit that you c an draw in as quint from a node. Which means with avatar 0 you can not use a node.
 
Scia said:
You forget that base mage is lacking a rule to raise these start out backrounds so avatar has to work with you for the whole of your characters life for one.
Based on soem readings the using of qint to reduce difficult is cum ulative with that from using abilitys as long as you are not going over a net -3 acounting all raises and lowerings in TN, you also need quint to heal Agreavated damage or deal it. And Avatar is also the uppoer limit that you c an draw in as quint from a node. Which means with avatar 0 you can not use a node.
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You aren't actually suppose to be able to raise Avatar in general - you have the one you're born with. There's a Merit that represents the fact that your Avatar was shattered or split apart before the game started, and so you get to go on a quest to reunite yourself with the rest of your soul. Mechanically, that means you do get to raise Avatar in play as an in-game reward, but it happens at the dictates of the ST, and you pay point for the privilege.
 
TheLastOne said:
You aren't actually suppose to be able to raise Avatar in general - you have the one you're born with. There's a Merit that represents the fact that your Avatar was shattered or split apart before the game started, and so you get to go on a quest to reunite yourself with the rest of your soul. Mechanically, that means you do get to raise Avatar in play as an in-game reward, but it happens at the dictates of the ST, and you pay point for the privilege.
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Which is what I said?
 
Enh. That doesn't quite make sense in all paradigms anyway. A Technocratic Seeking should totally be able to increase your Avatar rating, for example; you can learn how to learn, or just plain end up smarter - with a higher Genius.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Enh. That doesn't quite make sense in all paradigms anyway. A Technocratic Seeking should totally be able to increase your Avatar rating, for example; you can learn how to learn, or just plain end up smarter - with a higher Genius.
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The problem is that the Avatar is not really related to the seeking in that way, The Avatar is your mentor on your seeking, and so is not made stronger by you suceeding it, Basically the avatar is sleeping/half asleep/awake and can't wake himself up.
 
Scia said:
The problem is that the Avatar is not really related to the seeking in that way, The Avatar is your mentor on your seeking, and so is not made stronger by you suceeding it, Basically the avatar is sleeping/half asleep/awake and can't wake himself up.
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... in the purple paradigm.

Technocrats go "it's your natural genius, your ability to instinctively comprehend the nature of the world." So the same sorts of things that lead to increased Enlightenment - sudden trauma, sudden insight, coming to understand something new about the world - might also let you push harder, develop your intuition. Choristers and Dreamspeakers might find that they grow closer to their guardian spirits, and thus their Avatars offer them better hints and more power in a pinch. Euthanatoi might find that the more they act, the more tangled they are in Dharma, and so the world pulls on them with harsher strings, for better or for worse.

Really, it's only Hermetics - who explicitly believe that the Avatar is a separate soul - and the more ineffable paradigms - Akashic, CoX - that'd have a problem with it. (And Hermetics would just throw Spirit 5 at it or something, so buying up the Background just has a roleplay requirement)
 
linkhyrule5 said:
... in the purple paradigm.

Technocrats go "it's your natural genius, your ability to instinctively comprehend the nature of the world." So the same sorts of things that lead to increased Enlightenment - sudden trauma, sudden insight, coming to understand something new about the world - might also let you push harder, develop your intuition. Choristers and Dreamspeakers might find that they grow closer to their guardian spirits, and thus their Avatars offer them better hints and more power in a pinch. Euthanatoi might find that the more they act, the more tangled they are in Dharma, and so the world pulls on them with harsher strings, for better or for worse.

Really, it's only Hermetics - who explicitly believe that the Avatar is a separate soul - and the more ineffable paradigms - Akashic, CoX - that'd have a problem with it. (And Hermetics would just throw Spirit 5 at it or something, so buying up the Background just has a roleplay requirement)
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Well the problem with that is that it can also go beyond the purple one, as after all it is possible to force awaken people, it is just usually not a good idea. And well then we get into the issue why you can't simply make a copy of someone with genius and mass produce them.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Enh. That doesn't quite make sense in all paradigms anyway. A Technocratic Seeking should totally be able to increase your Avatar rating, for example; you can learn how to learn, or just plain end up smarter - with a higher Genius.
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Yes, but the Technocrats are wrong. Like, the Technocratic book itself is deeply wink wink nudge nudge on the subject of Avatar, and then goes out and ruins the joke by having a Merit where you aren't a broken shadow of what the Order of Reason once was because you're the reincarnation of a Craftmason and your Avatar remembers what the Order was supposed to be, it's true ideals.

So yeah, your Avatar might not particularly care how you think about it in terms of Paradigm, but this is one of several issue where... the Traditions are simply right. By design, of course - they are the designated heroes, and the heroes being right is usually something baked in.
 
TheLastOne said:
Yes, but the Technocrats are wrong. Like, the Technocratic book itself is deeply wink wink nudge nudge on the subject of Avatar, and then goes out and ruins the joke by having a Merit where you aren't a broken shadow of what the Order of Reason once was because you're the reincarnation of a Craftmason and your Avatar remembers what the Order was supposed to be, it's true ideals.

So yeah, your Avatar might not particularly care how you think about it in terms of Paradigm, but this is one of several issue where... the Traditions are simply right. By design, of course - they are the designated heroes, and the heroes being right is usually something baked in.
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On the other hand the avatar works better as truth then Spheres, especially because we see in the various Mage lines in the past that the Pillars, ards magica and so on where not using spheres and it still worked.
 
Scia said:
On the other hand the avatar works better as truth then Spheres, especially because we see in the various Mage lines in the past that the Pillars, ards magica and so on where not using spheres and it still worked.
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The nature and truth of the Sphere's is... weird. There's a bunch I could say on the subject, but there are just a bunch of issues no matter where you go, so I'm not going to have a strong opinion on the subject. I'll say that the closer we got to the end of the line, the more they pushed the idea of the Spheres being real, and the existence of a Tenth Sphere. Also, the Shard Realms don't make sense as they are in a world where the spheres aren't 'real.'

But I'm inclined to mostly ignore the 'real spheres' bit, but I would make sure that I remember that I am changing canonical assumptions so that I don't trip myself up later. There are a couple of places you need to keep that in mind in relation to spirit and the Umbra.
 
... Man, if you play a game where the Technocracy is outright wrong, I really have to wonder why you even bother playing oMage at all. Play nMage instead...

Everything is true. Nothing is impossible.
 
TheLastOne said:
The nature and truth of the Sphere's is... weird. There's a bunch I could say on the subject, but there are just a bunch of issues no matter where you go, so I'm not going to have a strong opinion on the subject. I'll say that the closer we got to the end of the line, the more they pushed the idea of the Spheres being real, and the existence of a Tenth Sphere. Also, the Shard Realms don't make sense as they are in a world where the spheres aren't 'real.'

But I'm inclined to mostly ignore the 'real spheres' bit, but I would make sure that I remember that I am changing canonical assumptions so that I don't trip myself up later. There are a couple of places you need to keep that in mind in relation to spirit and the Umbra.
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In one of the Ascension paths at least, the others more or less ignored the 10th.
And the point is that we also have realms that are close enough to shard realms without being a symbol of them. And of course the part where these realms are shaped by humans and considerinh how the OoH has pushed the sphere paradigma it makes sense for it to resonate in the Higher Umbra.

linkhyrule5 said:
... Man, if you play a game where the Technocracy is outright wrong, I really have to wonder why you even bother playing oMage at all. Play nMage instead...

Everything is true. Nothing is impossible.
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Well that would be 1-2 edition mage or m20 if one wants to look at the later especialyl scathing. And Lying to yourself and all that is a important aspect of dealing with mage, And the TU is lying to itself as much as any tradition member below arete 6.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
... Man, if you play a game where the Technocracy is outright wrong, I really have to wonder why you even bother playing oMage at all. Play nMage instead...

Everything is true. Nothing is impossible.
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This sounds like a case, though, where them being right means they get to bypass even more limitations than they already do. I mean, the TU already sorta-kinda runs the entire world, right? Without having an easy way to advance something that everyone else has to just...deal with?

I mean, the TU already seems to hold all of the cards without making the game reverse-Uno.
 
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It's not like there aren't canonical examples of people raising their Avatar rating.

It just, uh, tends to involve eating souls. Lots and lots of souls. I imagine the Union can technically do something similar and hide the cost behind distance and exchanges so it looks cleaner than omnomnom tasty souls drink their lifeblood, but it doesn't really seem like something they'd bother with most of the time.
 
The Laurent said:
This sounds like a case, though, where them being right means they get to bypass even more limitations than they already do. I mean, the TU already sorta-kinda runs the entire world, right? Without having an easy way to advance something that everyone else has to just...deal with?

I mean, the TU already seems to hold all of the cards without making the game reverse-Uno.
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Why not just say that everyone gets to buy up Avatar after a Seeking or literally just do what nWoD does and tie your ability to use magic juice to your Arete?

Tbh it seems odd that Hermetics or Euthanatos wouldn't agree with the Technocratic party line that magic comes from innate excellence and brilliance, just you know... magic not science.
 
MJ12 Commando said:
Why not just say that everyone gets to buy up Avatar after a Seeking or literally just do what nWoD does and tie your ability to use magic juice to your Arete?

Tbh it seems odd that Hermetics or Euthanatos wouldn't agree with the Technocratic party line that magic comes from innate excellence and brilliance, just you know... magic not science.
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Oh well sure that makes sense, I guess I was just imagining that for some reason someone didn't want to do it the way nWoD did.

Since I prefer nMage, that was sorta an unspoken assumption, kinda?

Eh, but yeah, perfectly fine idea.
 
MJ12 Commando said:
Why not just say that everyone gets to buy up Avatar after a Seeking or literally just do what nWoD does and tie your ability to use magic juice to your Arete?
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Or Willpower/2 - a rule I'd completely forgotten until I reread Revised recently is that your Arete is capped by your Willpower. In an Avatar-less Mage hack, maybe Gilgul is a procedure that reduces WP to 0/NA, tying into, well, 'willworkers'.
 
Let's be blunt here - as implemented, the Avatar background is a rote copy of the Vampire Generation background. And Generation is a blatantly unfair mechanic - but has the sole redeeming feature that it's meant to be horribly unfair and encourage you to go eat your elders to steal their power.

Avatar in Mage has no such justification. It doesn't even have an equivalent to diablerie to encourage you to go fight the Man and steal his power (and so become corrupt and static yourself). Honestly, for their themes, they'd probably have been better off making the Technocracy literally metaphysically fattened on accumulated soul power and letting other willworkers take it.

Hmm. Dark Souls Mage, where willworkers carry the souls of lords and they burn so brightly compared to the Sleepers. A thought for later, perhaps.

Anyway, I'd sure as hell encourage burning Avatar as a background in oMage to the ground, and just tying it to Arete. Keep the special Avatar backgrounds because they're fun [1], but "You should buy a few points of this" backgrounds are terrible and should be part of the basic template unless they have a very good reason, like Generation in Vampire.

[1] After all, if I didn't think they were fun, the PQ cast of Technocrats wouldn't have, between them, Past Lives and Demented Eidolon, Manifest Avatar as an Ally and Circumspect Avatar, Twin Souls (briefly twice over) and (briefly) Splintered Avatar, all sorts of things involving Past Lives and Dream, and then there wouldn't be a bunch of long Seeking write-ins where people go do stuff with their Avatars [2].

[2] Also, there wouldn't be a Manifest Avatar Circumspect Avatar Ally running around who's totally in denial that she's an Avatar even as she possesses Progenitor clones (through the power of science) and insisting she's just mental illness in a super-smart enhanced Progenitor who's clever enough to hallucinate a fully-fledged self-aware being.
 
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