So we are supposed to talk about the schism we might make but not the active religious spat we started?
The schism has not started yet, the spat has, we've said our bit, and were promptly ignored. It's now bigger than we are entirely, and it has been taken from our hands, Torror had even said as such a few times if you read his little posts.

The thing about the pending schism is that it's not started yet, so it's somethign we can actually affect and looking to the big M for advice is probably a great idea for that.
 
The schism has not started yet, the spat has, we've said our bit, and were promptly ignored. It's now bigger than we are entirely, and it has been taken from our hands, Torror had even said as such a few times if you read his little posts.

The thing about the pending schism is that it's not started yet, so it's somethign we can actually affect and looking to the big M for advice is probably a great idea for that.
Not saying otherwise about talking to magnus about it but that's no excuse for going "oh we already totally fucked up, better just ignore it." we didn't do that with the manaanites either...
 
The problem is we used the witch hunters the way the cult of sigmar wants them to be used and the other cults are like wait I don't like this
Other Cults are murmuring about the overreach of the Witch Hunters,
like its the other cults who say the witch hunters have to much power and I doubt the grand theoirst wants to decrease their power or the witch hunter general so not like we can do much to help
 
The problem is we used the witch hunters the way the cult of sigmar wants them to be used and the other cults are like wait I don't like this

like its the other cults who say the witch hunters have to much power and I doubt the grand theoirst wants to decrease their power or the witch hunter general so not like we can do much to help
The overreach was that most cults have their own internal division which we ignored.
 
and that doesn't really matter to much, because we are still the instigator and blame can still be laid at our feet.

Pretty much tbh.

The reason I want to visit Molatok next is not to find some magic bullet to resolve the current issues, as that would be very unlikely, but to simply uphold the relations we currently have with those electors.

Look at the optics here from the GT's POV, we use the Witch Hunters as intended, reawaken a longstanding issue about the justified or unjustified overreach of the Witch Hunters, then show up to Nuln visiting the Ar Ulric, Matriarch of Manaan, Myrmidians, maybe even the Taalites and Rhyans, but not Sigmar. Then, we appear with soft support for Manaan when prompted, which is a neutral answer, but a stepdown from our previous position.

We stand to lose the support of thr Sigmarites, who've backed us in every dispute among the electors since Karak Ungor. They tacitly supported us when Gunthar was getting uppity, and acted in our favor during the Starbrook package issue.

At the very least, I want us to try and find a compromise, being someone on decent relations with most of the major cults involved right now, even if we end up unsuccessful. At the very least, I want to show we're not snubbing the Sigmarites, and try to come out of this with our relations with all the cults intact. As to the dispute between the cult, we truly have no stake, and either result could work to our benefit.
 
and that doesn't really matter to much, because we are still the instigator and blame can still be laid at our feet.
Pretty much tbh.

The reason I want to visit Molatok next is not to find some magic bullet to resolve the current issues, as that would be very unlikely, but to simply uphold the relations we currently have with those electors.

Look at the optics here from the GT's POV, we use the Witch Hunters as intended, reawaken a longstanding issue about the justified or unjustified overreach of the Witch Hunters, then show up to Nuln visiting the Ar Ulric, Matriarch of Manaan, Myrmidians, maybe even the Taalites and Rhyans, but not Sigmar. Then, we appear with soft support for Manaan when prompted, which is a neutral answer, but a stepdown from our previous position.

We stand to lose the support of thr Sigmarites, who've backed us in every dispute among the electors since Karak Ungor. They tacitly supported us when Gunthar was getting uppity, and acted in our favor during the Starbrook package issue.

At the very least, I want us to try and find a compromise, being someone on decent relations with most of the major cults involved right now, even if we end up unsuccessful. At the very least, I want to show we're not snubbing the Sigmarites, and try to come out of this with our relations with all the cults intact. As to the dispute between the cult, we truly have no stake, and either result could work to our benefit.


False. Torroar has said this is false. This has ceased to be an issue we caused, and more to be an issue that we simply were a part of. The Sigmarites have been overreaching for a while now and this is the inevitable snap back.

If you want to visit Molatok to keep up appearances and political connections, fine, but frankly we're not at fault here and Torroar has said as such REPEATEDLY. We are not the center of the universe, the setting does not turn alone solely on the deeds of Frederick von Hohenzollern. This entire premise is based on SV's player conceit and it's more arrogant than Sigvald the Magnificent.
 
False. Torroar has said this is false. This has ceased to be an issue we caused, and more to be an issue that we simply were a part of. The Sigmarites have been overreaching for a while now and this is the inevitable snap back.

If you want to visit Molatok to keep up appearances and political connections, fine, but frankly we're not at fault here and Torroar has said as such REPEATEDLY. We are not the center of the universe, the setting does not turn alone solely on the deeds of Frederick von Hohenzollern. This entire premise is based on SV's player conceit and it's more arrogant than Sigvald the Magnificent.
I'd want a quote for that we are totally blameless and that no one will ever say a thing to us about it. Yes, the matter has gotten bigger then us and is no longer primarily focused on Ostland. No, we still started it.

Going to the grand theogonist and sounding out his stance to us is not a waste of time because we did impact him in a major way.
 
It's after, actually. I think I've poked at this in the updates before, but basically the aid of all of the most important people coming into the capital at one time makes it so that the priests can come too. Elector's Meet with then the Conclave. It's not like Magnus is leaving the city, after all.

As for tensions, uh, not really? The issue is that the tensions were raised between the Cults, and just because the original issue was dealt with doesn't mean that words weren't spoken between the other Cults, yeah? If someone got punched, and was in a bad mood, and got into a really bad argument with his friend who then was also in a bad mood and got into an argument with their friends, and the entire circle of friends got pissed off at one another? The original guy who wasn't in that circle of friends, who originally punched the one person, apologies it doesn't magically make everyone else not mad at one another. You know what I mean?
heres the closet I can find on the issues of the cults will still look
 
heres the closet I can find on the issues of the cults will still look
Thank you very much. I think I will still stand by my stance that we impacted the sigmarites In a major way and should go see if hes OK or actually annoyed with us. They were always our biggest supporters (after I guess morr now, at least partially) Nad they didn't deserve this.
 
Thank you very much. I think I will still stand by my stance that we impacted the sigmarites In a major way and should go see if hes OK or actually annoyed with us. They were always our biggest supporters (after I guess morr now, at least partially) Nad they didn't deserve this.
You would think that the Sigmarites if we pissed them off would be more than capable of, i dunno, Calling on us? They're not NPCS without the ability to even send messages to us after all and acting like they are, is once again, arrogant. You'd have thought with how long ago this was, if we actually pissed him off we'd have heard of it from how the rest of the Church of Sigmar acts around us.
 
Thank you very much. I think I will still stand by my stance that we impacted the sigmarites In a major way and should go see if hes OK or actually annoyed with us. They were always our biggest supporters (after I guess morr now, at least partially) Nad they didn't deserve this.
From what I recall the guy is pretty hardcore about sigmar and probably doesn't see what we did as wrong but if you think we should check Also this implies he defends the witchhunters a lot
"It is. I've heard Archibald - sorry, Molatok," she sneers, "Use that same argument at every Conclave until now when it comes up."

It is hard not to take pause at hearing the Grand Theogonist, the highest authority in the whole of the Cult of Sigmar, something that could be considered to be one of the most prevalent Cults of the entire Empire, be referred to in such a tone. But then you suppose Maghda is similarly the absolute highest authority in the entire Cult of Manann, which has total domination over the absolutely vital veins of the Empire and its coasts as well. You are not the most traditional worshipper of Sigmar, certainly, but it still takes a second for your mind to shift back into proper action again.

"The Grand Theogonist, really?"

Maghda lolls her head and rolls it around again to look at you, a wry look on her face.

"Come now, Frederick. Of course he supports the Witch Hunters of his Cult. He and the Arch-Lectors."
So maybe he might be annoyed at us for showing pennence for all we know. but I do want to vist him maybe we can build our own sisters of sigmar
 
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Because it's not all in one nice corner. And not everyone reads the whole comments. Or has photographic memory, that allows them to know everything, even stuff they would rather ignore/forget.
What the hell are you talking about? I just told you off for whitewashing other concerns, I don't really care about this "everyone" or their hypothetical difficulties following discussion.

Then I get told "We have a legitimate concern, why are you ignoring all these issues brought forwards? Like the much valued Cult of Taal problem that must be important for the emperor?"

Because the Taal issue is not important enough to take up Magnus's time. In comparison to the skaven beneath Nuln, the immediate issues Magnus wants to bring up at the EM, the Starbrook Trade package oversight, and now Ostland's Manse. I seemingly have no point in stating that "Freddy's stories don't seem important to waste any of the emperor's valuable time", when the tales of what Freddy has done, or been involved in, were what the post was discussing.
You're doing it again. Stop declaring what is and isn't important.

Secondly, none of those issues are so personal for Ostlsand. The Skaven are Wissenland's problem unless the countess brings it to the meet, and both the starbrook package and manse issue are being dealt with. They're out of our hands. Meanwhile, Ostland, whose economic interest in producing and selling the seed drills is intersecting with the Cult's religious doctrine and highlighting the differences between the two intertwined cults. Those are absolutely complex topics, and are absolutely worth a meeting. The fact that you have a "maybe" does not actually mean that your interpretation is right.
 
From what I recall the guy is pretty hardcore about sigmar and probably doesn't see what we did as wrong but if you think we should check Also this implies he defends the witchhunters a lot
It be pretty hard to be grand theogonist and not be hardcore about Sigmar I feel. Though he seems more radical then most. And for the witch hunters I can see why hes protective. Officially their supposed to be secular but they still started out as sigmarite templars.
 
False. Torroar has said this is false. This has ceased to be an issue we caused, and more to be an issue that we simply were a part of. The Sigmarites have been overreaching for a while now and this is the inevitable snap back.

If you want to visit Molatok to keep up appearances and political connections, fine, but frankly we're not at fault here and Torroar has said as such REPEATEDLY. We are not the center of the universe, the setting does not turn alone solely on the deeds of Frederick von Hohenzollern. This entire premise is based on SV's player conceit and it's more arrogant than Sigvald the Magnificent.

Nowhere have I said we were at fault, however, as we've seen many times with King Stonehammer in KU, with Gunthar, with Starbrook, with Marienburg, with Adolf, we don't need to be at fault for people's precious feelings to be hurt and for them to try and take a swing at us. Hell, we hurt Stephan by being considerate and not inviting him to the meatgrinder that was Karak Ungor.

We used the Witch Hunters in the capacity they were intended to be used. Even Magdha could not deny the argument of speed and expedience. My issue is with the optics, Molatok probably expects us to be an ally, Sigmar's mein, witch hunter usage, previous support and all that, and we spend our days visiting his chief rivals, and not railing against the woman who got us keelhauled.

Seriously, what's the issue or opportunity cost or visiting the GT, giving him the same question we asked Magdha, get his side of the story, let him vent, asking him his timetable so we don't accidentally call on him as they're spread about in Sylvania like in the Bloodfane battle, update him on the beastman purges and probe him on possible support in case we run into another beastman site our priests aren't equipped to handle, etc.

Seriously, imagine the fallout from the thread if Stephan or Ortrud stopped showing up to the Trident Meetings, and was seen meeting up with Gunthar, Kaufmann, Starbrook or Adolf and his successors. What if Kattarin ceased purchases with Ostland and went directly to Nuln, as is her right?
 
Nowhere have I said we were at fault, however, as we've seen many times with King Stonehammer in KU, with Gunthar, with Starbrook, with Marienburg, with Adolf, we don't need to be at fault for people's precious feelings to be hurt and for them to try and take a swing at us. Hell, we hurt Stephan by being considerate and not inviting him to the meatgrinder that was Karak Ungor.

We used the Witch Hunters in the capacity they were intended to be used. Even Magdha could not deny the argument of speed and expedience. My issue is with the optics, Molatok probably expects us to be an ally, Sigmar's mein, witch hunter usage, previous support and all that, and we spend our days visiting his chief rivals, and not railing against the woman who got us keelhauled.

Seriously, what's the issue or opportunity cost or visiting the GT, giving him the same question we asked Magdha, get his side of the story, let him vent, asking him his timetable so we don't accidentally call on him as they're spread about in Sylvania like in the Bloodfane battle, update him on the beastman purges and probe him on possible support in case we run into another beastman site our priests aren't equipped to handle, etc.

Seriously, imagine the fallout from the thread if Stephan or Ortrud stopped showing up to the Trident Meetings, and was seen meeting up with Gunthar, Kaufmann, Starbrook or Adolf and his successors. What if Kattarin ceased purchases with Ostland and went directly to Nuln, as is her right?
Like i said, visiting for political connections is fine. I even said as such. The issue is several people have taken on the responsibility of trying to fix whatever Magnus himself could not simply because they feel we're fault and will be blamed. Which is arrogant as hell.
Much like how Magnus is pissed off about visiting Magnus for any reason, I have no choice but to conflate the people want to visit Molatok as people in the previous aforementioned camp unless they say otherwise. You even agreed with one such person so i tagged you in the post.
Now i have zero issue for visiting with political connections, I think it's good idea even, but trying to 'fix' this is the height of arrogance and i will speak out against it.
 
The only thing I can expect us to gain from cult of sigmar is their holy orders (if anyone else has a reason beyond apologize let me know). Also Molatok prob doesn't expect much from us consereding how often we meet with Logan (who he prob thinks we named our son after) and uses magic if it was not for ungor I bet he would hate us not as much as the guy who burned us but still. (granted I could be wrong on this but we haven't really had a close reletionship with Molatok and the cult)

Edit: maybe it wouldn't hurt to ask how we can benefit each other going forward he prob has some ideas
 
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The only thing I can expect us to gain from cult of sigmar is their holy orders (if anyone else has a reason beyond apologize let me know). Also Molatok prob doesn't expect much from us consereding how often we meet with Logan (who he prob thinks we named our son after) and uses magic if it was not for ungor I bet he would hate us not as much as the guy who burned us but still. (granted I could be wrong on this but we haven't really had a close reletionship with Molatok and the cult)

Edit: maybe it wouldn't hurt to ask how we can benefit each other going forward he prob has some ideas
Molatok actually likes us because we are blessed by Sigmar. Our body is literal proof that Sigmar favors us and that we are a true believer. Yes we do talk more with the ulrican side but that hasn't stopped the man yet.
 
So I stumbled on this.
Then, the entire settlement and castle were razed past the foundations and its entire populace burned to ash and cinders by the dragon Calamithaxis who awoke in the Middle Mountains.
--> Dwarfs refuse to go to the Middle Mountains
--> 20.000 Soldiers lost
--> Morai-Wen went north?

Ehhh...
While it's very much possible that something else was at work, we can dismiss the Brass Keep with near certainty. After that is gone there is only so much that can spirit away 20.000 men and make Dwarfs reconsider every attempt at settling a mountain and instead favor a settlement in a valley.

I honestly hope it was the Dragon, since there is that whole thing about a third Chaos Gate inside the Middle Mountains, which is held by Grimnir. Better the ancient super-dragon.
How canon is the third Chaos Gate?

Edit: nevermind the Dragon is deadm
 
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So I stumbled on this.

--> Dwarfs refuse to go to the Middle Mountains
--> 20.000 Soldiers lost
--> Morai-Wen went north?

Ehhh...
While it's very much possible that something else was at work, we can dismiss the Brass Keep with near certainty. After that is gone there is only so much that can spirit away 20.000 men and make Dwarfs reconsider every attempt at settling a mountain and instead favor a settlement in a valley.

I honestly hope it was the Dragon, since there is that whole thing about a third Chaos Gate inside the Middle Mountains, which is held by Grimnir. Better the ancient super-dragon.
How canon is the third Chaos Gate?
Why can we dismiss the brass keep again?
 
Why can we dismiss the brass keep again?
Almost dismiss.
For all his faults Gunther is a competent enough men and the Ar-Ulric told us that he instructed his men to not engage or enter the Brass Keep, but instead to keep their distance and report. There would have been at least some form of clue, if parts of his army, nevermind 20.000 men, stumbled upon the location.

Fighting, desertion, madness, signs of magic, anything. So while I won't disregard the possibility of 20.000 ignoring the orders of their Elector Count and Priests completely, I do find it unlikely.
 
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Almost dismiss.
For all his faults Gunther is a competent enough men and the Ar-Ulric told us that he instructed his men to not engage or enter the Brass Keep, but instead to keep their distance and report. There would have been at least some for of clue, if parts of his army, nevermind 20.000 men, stumbled upon the location.

Fighting, desertion, madness, signs of magic, anything. So while I won't disregard the possibility of 20.000 ignoring the orders of their Elector Count and Priests completely, I do find it unlikely.
OK sooo you got nothing and just saying your certain.
Like we don't know what happened. Saying something couldn't have done it when we have no clue is pretty bad.
 
OK sooo you got nothing and just saying your certain.
Like we don't know what happened. Saying something couldn't have done it when we have no clue is pretty bad.
What are you talking about?
I'm taking the information we got from the Ar-Uleic and trust it to a reasonable degree. Since our prior guesses revolved around the Brass Keep being the "culprit", it stands to reason that, in light of the new information we got, new causes need to be found.

I have never outright dismissed or proclaimed anything, but I rather gave my own opinion in regards to the probability of certain things being the cause for the disappearance of 20.000 men.

Posts are, if not stated otherwise, always opinions and guesses. No one said that they know what did or didn't happen.
 
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What are you talking about?
I'm taking the information we got from the Ar-Uleic and trust it to a reasonable degree. Since our prior guesses revolved around the Brass Keep being the "culprit", it stands to reason that, in light of the new information we got, new causes need to be found.

I have never outright dismissed or proclaimed anything, but I rather gave my own opinion in regards to the probability of certain things being the cause for the disappearance of 20.000 men.

Posts are, if not stated otherwise, always opinions and guesses. No one said that they know what did or didn't happen.
Absolutely but when people post things like:
we can dismiss the Brass Keep with near certainty.

Then I rather have more evidence then "well they probably were careful."
I don't doubt that 2 armies were careful in their approach, they still got wiped out to a man and we do not know what did it. It could have very well been the brass keep, or a dragon, or daemons, or a myriad of things.
Like, you'd think with all other possible enemies someone would have gotten away... But they didn't.
 
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