Their Light Will Be Ours [Stellaris]

I think the only real reason to do this sort of thing would be to get around storage constraints. With the latest Inflatable Section, we'll have 275/60 storage on the orbital, enough to hold all we need to do the maximum contribution.

Sure, if we had unlimited old-world export, or production on Clawpair, then we'd do best to do the maximum input each year. But as we don't, we may as well just spend what we can when we can. That way we at least get started.
 
It might be organizationally simpler, but it uses more industry actions than otherwise (admittedly we might not end up using all our industry actions on Clawpair every time) and more importantly, it locks those resources in. We can't pull them out of an in-progress project and work on something more urgent. If we let them build up in storage until we have enough to make a maximum contribution, we're reserving our options and giving ourselves the chance to pivot.
 
Just found this.

Is there anywhere I can find an overview of our current strategic situation?

Resources/techs/buildings/income?

Ok, Inhabited systems has some of it.
 
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@pheonix89 We have one space station, one planet, one ship (now outdated due to making lots of massive trades with a faction of the Far-Flung Lights, our deal with which will probably involve us in a civil war sooner or later). We're building a massive logistics network infrastructure project that'll really explode our planetary economy, due to finish next year. We've explored 3 other systems and found interesting things in 2 of them and gone back, including salvaging a powerful precursor cruiser and making deals with The Far-Flung Lights.

I mostly suggest you just read it all - it's a good read!
 
afaik you can't stop then start a project?

Doing it only when we can do the maximum contribution is simply sensible, as it makes the best use of actions.

Second ship @ 40/150, 25/turn 110/25 = ~5 turns to go.

@Evenstar what's an average capture rate of asteroid mass/year with a torch-drived Carcinogenic II?

10 RM gen/turn/asteroid bay, assuming 50*asteroid bay asteroid mass intake, so a theoretical cap of 300/trip if it's like a capture-however-much-asteroid-you-want thing, rather than a 1-asteroid-per-trip thing.

@pheonix89 Most recent threadmark.

Edit:
Cost: 500 Raw Materials, [500 Raw Materials or 100 Modules], max contribution 250 Raw and 50 Modules per year. 1 Action to contribute this year.

Renewable: 25 Size/Year, production cap reached.
Manufacturing per year:
30 Size Raw Materials -> 20 Size Modules
50 Size Modules -> 25 Size Ship

60 import cap

5:1 raw:module options v 1.5:1 manufacturing v module conversion means paying in modules is theoretically better. We can and should import the modules from below within 2 turns.

500 raw materials @ only 25/turn = 20 turns needed. @ 25 + 50 imports following the 2 turns to import modules => 7 turns.

Meanwhile, carcina II is 150 - 40 = 110 ship * 2 (modules:ship) to go, so 220, so 4 turns of imports to get a ship capable of harvesting an unknown amount of asteroid per turn.

But honestly the asteroid bays cost 100 raw material and repay it at 10/turn given a steady supply of asteroid to mine, which is 10 years to hit balance. So like... kinda not worth it.
 
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It might be organizationally simpler, but it uses more industry actions than otherwise (admittedly we might not end up using all our industry actions on Clawpair every time) and more importantly, it locks those resources in. We can't pull them out of an in-progress project and work on something more urgent. If we let them build up in storage until we have enough to make a maximum contribution, we're reserving our options and giving ourselves the chance to pivot.

As it is, we quite probably would be building nothing for the next decade if we follow your idea to wait until we have everything in reserve needed. Admittedly, between getting our second ship launched as an asteroid miner, increasing old-world export and the new super-heavy lifting platforms technology coming in this year, I expect that to be a lot shorter.

Hell, if SHLP doubles our old-world export, then we can quite probably start this year and be done in three years I think.

Basically, if there's nothing else we need to build at Clawpair, we might as well start the work on the upgrade. Sure, it'll take more actual actions but it shouldn't take any longer in time.
 
@pheonix89 We have one space station, one planet, one ship (now outdated due to making lots of massive trades with a faction of the Far-Flung Lights, our deal with which will probably involve us in a civil war sooner or later). We're building a massive logistics network infrastructure project that'll really explode our planetary economy, due to finish next year. We've explored 3 other systems and found interesting things in 2 of them and gone back, including salvaging a powerful precursor cruiser and making deals with The Far-Flung Lights.

I mostly suggest you just read it all - it's a good read!
Actually they make a good point

@Evenstar
A civ sheet would be extremely useful at this point because even if you read it through in one sitting you're pretty unlikely to know what assets we actually have anymore. Its grown too large
 
The informational updates and the review of last turn are okay, but I definitely agree that having a single updating threadmark would be nice, even if it doesn't retain a record of our growth.
 
I actually like the seperate information before the relevant vote. It makes it easier when you reread, because then you can see the evolution over time.

Though a centralized thing could be neat too.
 
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Would it be worth picking one of us to be an OOC secretary who keeps an up-to-date compilation of all currently known information?
 
@Evenstar How would in-system stations - eg for the sake of asteroid mining - work? I'd imagine the products of asteroid mining and the necessary products to maintain the station could be shipped well enough via railguns or automated solar sail carriers.
 
Actually they make a good point
@Evenstar
A civ sheet would be extremely useful at this point because even if you read it through in one sitting you're pretty unlikely to know what assets we actually have anymore. Its grown too large

You can say that again.
A proper civ sheet is definitely a thing that's in the works. The Big Huge Exploratory Report is intended to be a template towards the full meal deal.

Currently I'm busy figuring out wtf I'm doing with regards to jumpship combat, which I kind of need to have hammered out now that we have actual weapon and armor modules. Also, just a generally higher level of stress atm due to personal stuff.

The other major thing is getting this year's Light technology update sorted out.

Thanks to @Rockeye for helping with this year's industrial report, it's been a definite help.

I also need to do another public star map update: I now have everything within ~100 LY of Klaxes Prime generated. Part of my issue here is that the free web tool I used for the earlier ones now has giant obnoxious ads, so if anyone has a good alternative to Pixlr I'd appreciate info.

I'm doing things in ~40 LY sectors, for the arbitrary reason that that's about how large an area fits on a single page of my GM notebook at a comfortable scale. I have generated the Klaxes sector, along with all eight of its neighbours. (Minus some overlap, so that it's clear what goes where.) A proper full version of this is one of my goals for the Civ Overview, since even in my notebook it's a bit scattered.

I've just done a first broad-strokes cut at a galactic map out to ~200LY. (Five sectors in all directions.)
 
@Evenstar How would in-system stations - eg for the sake of asteroid mining - work? I'd imagine the products of asteroid mining and the necessary products to maintain the station could be shipped well enough via railguns or automated solar sail carriers.

Presuming for the moment that we do have a giant railgun lying around, how exactly are you planning to brake these payloads?

You can set up an Orbital around any planet or moon, but since they're expensive (See the Inflatable Station stats) you're encouraged to only put them on stuff you care about.

We have not, as of yet, actually fully surveyed our home system. Torch Drive will help with that.
 
Presuming for the moment that we do have a giant railgun lying around, how exactly are you planning to brake these payloads?

You can set up an Orbital around any planet or moon, but since they're expensive (See the Inflatable Station stats) you're encouraged to only put them on stuff you care about.

We have not, as of yet, actually fully surveyed our home system. Torch Drive will help with that.

Actually, a giant railgun/coilgun of some sort is a magnificent method of getting ore from a mining site to a distant processing site, at least up to a certain point. By which I mean if you were mining the Jovian Trojans you'd probably not want to send it to Earth for processing. Maybe Mars though.

The thing you need to comprehend is that Coilguns/Railguns work on two principles. Namely, the longer the rail/coil for a given weight of projectile, the faster said projectile travels. And also that the more massive the projectile, the larger and longer the rail/coil has to be, as well as more powerful the magnets, to reach a given velocity.

Another thing is that with orbital mechanics you can trade speed for time. So how I'd set up a 'cheap' mining site that has the ore sent to a central processing facility? By building a Coilgun/Railgun to fire the ore in large chunks toward said facility, at such speed that it takes years for a given chunk to arrive.

After all if it's going at a velocity so low that it takes years to arrive, then that means it is a lot cheaper on reaction mass to slow it down. And whilst a given chunk is taking its sweet time to arrive, the processing facility can process the chunks that were fired years ago and only just arrived.
 
I meant for the things accelerating the balls, but also the shower of metallic fragments from the rapid heating and cooling might be an issue, too. It seems like it would be a lot more wear and a lot more energy in exchange for more conventional materials that are easier to replace, basically.

The idea is to accelerate the segments magnetically which if done right would mean no friction. It's possible that the electromagnets would wear out over time but I think if anything it's less wear and tear. I'm also not sure what shower of metallic fragments you're talking about. For the same reason the energy loss is actually not that large especially if we get superconductors, you accelerate the segments as they're going down and at the bottom and decelerate them as they're going up which forms something of a closed loop as far as power is concerned. There are obviously inefficiencies but the biggest ones are in the energy to maintain the vacuum.
 
Well, this has given me another mathematical formula to sink my teeth into, but the problem here is how to decelerate an asteroid at a reasonable timescale. Railguns are a solution, but if we get Shuttle tech, then we can instead focus on the smaller scale. I think mining ships would be a better solution at first, depending on how scalable it is.
 
The idea is to accelerate the segments magnetically which if done right would mean no friction. It's possible that the electromagnets would wear out over time but I think if anything it's less wear and tear. I'm also not sure what shower of metallic fragments you're talking about. For the same reason the energy loss is actually not that large especially if we get superconductors, you accelerate the segments as they're going down and at the bottom and decelerate them as they're going up which forms something of a closed loop as far as power is concerned. There are obviously inefficiencies but the biggest ones are in the energy to maintain the vacuum.
The shower caused by thousands of metal balls hitting themselves and whatever they're propelling.

I'm aware that they in theory form a closed loop, except for the pretty obvious losses due to drag on both the way up and the way down. Or is all of this happening inside an airless tube?

And yeah, electromagnets wear. Especially the giant shitton of electromagnets needed to fling thousands of metal balls and whatever object you're propelling into the sky using them. Or so I would presume.

Still cheaper than laser-guarded adamantium beanstalks, tho.

Edit:
Or are things lifted using magnetic drag on the balls rather than through direct contact? Still probably going to get physical clashes.

The orbital velocity listing has the lift being performed by acceleration/deceleration pairs, so non-physical but energetically expensive.
It also has the maintenance cost of a 2000km tower being equivalent to that of a modern city - albeit without quoting exact numbers much less a source. Someone on Wikipedia has the space fountain page redirecting toward orbital rings which is fun considering the orbital rings page links to space fountains.
 
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The shower caused by thousands of metal balls hitting themselves and whatever they're propelling.
I'd note that said fragments are going to be manifesting in the form of aerosolized iron dust more than anything else(assuming the balls with significant wear being shunted to recycling rather than being cycled until annihilation), it'd be insignificant in terms of physical hazards, though it'd probably contribute slightly to wind abrasion, nothing more than what natural sand already does
I'm aware that they in theory form a closed loop, except for the pretty obvious losses due to drag on both the way up and the way down. Or is all of this happening inside an airless tube?

And yeah, electromagnets wear. Especially the giant shitton of electromagnets needed to fling thousands of metal balls and whatever object you're propelling into the sky using them. Or so I would presume.
There should be no physical contact to the balls. Its kind of the whole point.

Another thing is that with orbital mechanics you can trade speed for time. So how I'd set up a 'cheap' mining site that has the ore sent to a central processing facility? By building a Coilgun/Railgun to fire the ore in large chunks toward said facility, at such speed that it takes years for a given chunk to arrive.

After all if it's going at a velocity so low that it takes years to arrive, then that means it is a lot cheaper on reaction mass to slow it down. And whilst a given chunk is taking its sweet time to arrive, the processing facility can process the chunks that were fired years ago and only just arrived.
Also depends on accuracy. In space you can plot projectiles accurately for a pretty damned long distance, so firing a coilgun at a magnetic solenoid cone could theoretically channel, slow, brake and recover the energy invested in the braking process.
 
Also depends on accuracy. In space you can plot projectiles accurately for a pretty damned long distance, so firing a coilgun at a magnetic solenoid cone could theoretically channel, slow, brake and recover the energy invested in the braking process.

Sounds like a 5 year research project to turn 'theoretically' into 'practical'
 
Meanwhile, the author squats in another corner, deeply regretting asking a local semi-expert how biologically plausible the Klaxes are.

How implausible are they? Let me count the ways...
1: You ain't going to get a fully exoskeletal body that large.
1a: It's too heavy.
1b: That much shell is too energy-expensive. (This is gonna be a theme.)
1c: Shedding and regrowth is a major issue. Sloughing off half your body as a large animal just ain't going to work.
1d: Large animals need circulatory systems if they're going to exert any degree of sustained effort.
1e: Large animals need lots of calories. Assuming Klaxes aren't eating continuously, that means they eat meat, they eat a lot of it at once, and then they digest it over an extended period. That means they need space to store meat they're digesting inside their shell, unless they want their internal organs to be squashed.

2: Their legs can't look like that.
2a: That low, crablike posture with sideways-splayed limbs? Aquatic feature, born of an environment where you don't have to support your own weight and can swim around. Terrestrial animals have taller, more forward-facing limbs so they can step over things.
2b: Limbs of large animals are very energetically expensive, so they ain't gonna have ten of them.

Note: You can see both of these in the coconut crab. While it technically does still have ten limbs, only six are large enough to look like limbs at a distance. The forward legs are also angled further towards the front of the crab, and elongated.

3: They need better manipulators than pincers.
3a: How are they managing fine manipulation without fingers?
3b: How are they managing to get sensitive tactile feedback with shell-enclosed pincers?

4: Where are they getting the energy budget for all this?
4a: Large brains, hardened shells, and multiple limbs are all expensive.
4b: But if you just make calorie-dense food readily abundant, intelligence stops being a competitive advantage, and is never selected for. (Large brains are expensive!)
4c: And if your answer to this is "they cook their food", may I remind you that this is an aquatic species you're describing?

My answers so far:
1a: Their planet has slightly lighter gravity than earth's. (I don't want to go too far or their ecology will start getting really unrecognizable really fast, but I'm okay with allowing a leeway of maybe 10%.)
1b: Okay, they're only partially exoskeletal: there's bony endoskeleton in the limbs. (Like turtles!)
1c: They start out relatively soft and squishy and harden over time, like coconut crabs do. Molts happen late in life, and aren't naturally selected against because Klaxes reproduced decades before then in the ancestral environment.
1d: Okay, they have circulatory systems, but they still use hemocyanin because it's more efficient in the lower oxygen pressures and colder temperatures of their homeworld.
1e: Not a huge issue, especially because of 1c's answer.

2: Okay, they emulate coconut crabs. Not a huge concession: they still look acceptably crablike.

3a: Okay, they use those two reduced pairs of forelimbs for fine manipulation very close up. There's some precedent for this in the fact that coconut crabs use a reduced pair of forelimbs to grab and hold on to coconut shells, using them for protection while they're still young and squishy.
3b: The specialized manipulator forelimbs are unarmored. Also, Klaxes have better eyesight and a better sense of smell than us.

4: We've addressed the limb-count issue, and the shell is a one-time investment as far as evolution is concerned: so that leaves the brain-size issue and the cooking issue.

My answer to that is: why are we assuming that energy expenditure and intelligence have a 1:1 correlation? The field of avian neurology suggests that the human brain may actually be surprisingly inefficient compared to other possible designs. I don't have an issue with assuming that wiggle room is large enough to contain the Klaxes.

Still, this does mean the Klaxes' metabolic budget is pretty strained overall, between the shell, the brain and the extra limbs. That pretty much obliges them to be hypercarnivores, getting the majority of their energy from calorie-dense meat. In other words: they're pastoralists, not farmers.

This noticeably changes the flavour writeup and Tech Deck belonged to for "terrestrial agriculture", because it would actually represent a dedicated domestication project as the Klaxes learn how to ranch. I'll put that tech in the Biology deck, and edit the description of the current one to focus on tree farming for wood.

As for cooking reducing the amount of energy needed for digestion: yes, fair, fire does predigest things for us. But we eat many uncooked foods, and have many processes for predigesting things. The one that springs to mind as being relatively easy to achieve in an aquatic environment is fermentation, which says pungent things about the state of modern Klaxes cuisine.
 
Meanwhile, the author squats in another corner, deeply regretting asking a local semi-expert how biologically plausible the Klaxes are.

How implausible are they? Let me count the ways...
1: You ain't going to get a fully exoskeletal body that large.
1a: It's too heavy.
1b: That much shell is too energy-expensive. (This is gonna be a theme.)
1c: Shedding and regrowth is a major issue. Sloughing off half your body as a large animal just ain't going to work.
1d: Large animals need circulatory systems if they're going to exert any degree of sustained effort.
1e: Large animals need lots of calories. Assuming Klaxes aren't eating continuously, that means they eat meat, they eat a lot of it at once, and then they digest it over an extended period. That means they need space to store meat they're digesting inside their shell, unless they want their internal organs to be squashed.

2: Their legs can't look like that.
2a: That low, crablike posture with sideways-splayed limbs? Aquatic feature, born of an environment where you don't have to support your own weight and can swim around. Terrestrial animals have taller, more forward-facing limbs so they can step over things.
2b: Limbs of large animals are very energetically expensive, so they ain't gonna have ten of them.

Note: You can see both of these in the coconut crab. While it technically does still have ten limbs, only six are large enough to look like limbs at a distance. The forward legs are also angled further towards the front of the crab, and elongated.

3: They need better manipulators than pincers.
3a: How are they managing fine manipulation without fingers?
3b: How are they managing to get sensitive tactile feedback with shell-enclosed pincers?

4: Where are they getting the energy budget for all this?
4a: Large brains, hardened shells, and multiple limbs are all expensive.
4b: But if you just make calorie-dense food readily abundant, intelligence stops being a competitive advantage, and is never selected for. (Large brains are expensive!)
4c: And if your answer to this is "they cook their food", may I remind you that this is an aquatic species you're describing?

My answers so far:
1a: Their planet has slightly lighter gravity than earth's. (I don't want to go too far or their ecology will start getting really unrecognizable really fast, but I'm okay with allowing a leeway of maybe 10%.)
1b: Okay, they're only partially exoskeletal: there's bony endoskeleton in the limbs. (Like turtles!)
1c: They start out relatively soft and squishy and harden over time, like coconut crabs do. Molts happen late in life, and aren't naturally selected against because Klaxes reproduced decades before then in the ancestral environment.
1d: Okay, they have circulatory systems, but they still use hemocyanin because it's more efficient in the lower oxygen pressures and colder temperatures of their homeworld.
1e: Not a huge issue, especially because of 1c's answer.

2: Okay, they emulate coconut crabs. Not a huge concession: they still look acceptably crablike.

3a: Okay, they use those two reduced pairs of forelimbs for fine manipulation very close up. There's some precedent for this in the fact that coconut crabs use a reduced pair of forelimbs to grab and hold on to coconut shells, using them for protection while they're still young and squishy.
3b: The specialized manipulator forelimbs are unarmored. Also, Klaxes have better eyesight and a better sense of smell than us.

4: We've addressed the limb-count issue, and the shell is a one-time investment as far as evolution is concerned: so that leaves the brain-size issue and the cooking issue.

My answer to that is: why are we assuming that energy expenditure and intelligence have a 1:1 correlation? The field of avian neurology suggests that the human brain may actually be surprisingly inefficient compared to other possible designs. I don't have an issue with assuming that wiggle room is large enough to contain the Klaxes.

Still, this does mean the Klaxes' metabolic budget is pretty strained overall, between the shell, the brain and the extra limbs. That pretty much obliges them to be hypercarnivores, getting the majority of their energy from calorie-dense meat. In other words: they're pastoralists, not farmers.

This noticeably changes the flavour writeup and Tech Deck belonged to for "terrestrial agriculture", because it would actually represent a dedicated domestication project as the Klaxes learn how to ranch. I'll put that tech in the Biology deck, and edit the description of the current one to focus on tree farming for wood.

As for cooking reducing the amount of energy needed for digestion: yes, fair, fire does predigest things for us. But we eat many uncooked foods, and have many processes for predigesting things. The one that springs to mind as being relatively easy to achieve in an aquatic environment is fermentation, which says pungent things about the state of modern Klaxes cuisine.
Craaaab people craaaab people.

Talk like crab. Walk like people.
 
I can see why molting the shell repeatedly as they grow larger would be bad, but I don't really see why shells would be more expensive than skin + bones, especially in an underwater-evolving life form. The like "slowly fills in" thing is interesting. Is it like how children's brain pan slowly solidifies?

Maybe use pedipalps as the fine-manipulation method? They're already delicate food eating things, so it vaguely makes sense even if it means building tools using your lips. You could also just write it off as a highly developed proprioceptive sense + eyes. Like, you don't need a great tactile sense to do manipulation. You just need delicate and steady manipulators.

I'd kind of assumed they mostly ate meat or fruit-alikes because most herbivores are pretty dumb. You don't need to be smart if you're an herbivore.
 
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