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Their Light Will Be Ours [Stellaris]

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LonelyWolf999 said:
So, lacking the pack instincts of humanity has both virtues and deficiencies. On one hand, presumably way less inter-species conflict and general social upheaval, which has caused humanity no end of suffering and may well destroy us before we even leave our planet. On the other hand, they also lack the positive aspects of humanity's tribalism. How many stories have you heard of 'heroes?' People who sacrificed for reasons and causes which had no empirical benefit for them? Don't we consider that a good thing? People will go to absurd lengths for their 'Tribe', and once this stops being other humans and starts being aliens? I imagine humans would just be willing to go farther, fight harder, pay higher taxes, etc, than a 'logical' race like the Klaxes.
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Nah, the Klaxes have had plenty of internal conflict and social upheaval: even in a world where tribal loyalty doesn't really exist, people can still band together over a common interest, and in fact are more likely to because they don't have intertribal conflicts separating them. Even humans don't have to identify with a group in order to support and fight for it, and Klaxes understand personal loyalty just fine. It's loyalty to ideals and cultures that they don't have the instinct for.

What you do see as a result of this is a lot faster acceptance of new status quo. Klaxes aren't big on maintaining traditions or fighting for losing causes. This is both a good and a bad thing.

On the good side, it means that Klaxes can gracefully adapt to major shifts in their way of life, not experiencing culture shock or future shock. They're more socially fluid and less hidebound, and take a lot of things less personally than humans do. All the evils that spring from defense of the ingroup and hatred of the outgroup - xenophobia, blood feuds, collective punishment - are much less prevalent in Klaxes society.

On the bad side, it means that Klaxes can be institutionally brutal, because their sense of empathy also only applies to individuals, not to groups. They'll go along with unethical policies that don't personally affect them much more easily: though outright bigotry and hatred is far less common, they're often callously unconcerned about other Klaxes' suffering. Klaxes workplace safety laws barely exist by human standards, and they're even worse at handicap-accessibility than we are. Outright indentureship was only banned a century ago.

Some other misc effects:
- Klaxes don't have a cultural concept of "pets", though they do have service animals and some Klaxes get attached to them.
- Klaxes don't really have the idea of character or personality types, though they do have role models, heroes and stereotypes. However, Klaxes stereotypes are more along the lines of "a stereotypical bird": they're less coloured by cultural attitudes and more coloured by personal biases.
- In general, Virtue Ethics is a really difficult concept for Klaxes to grok.
 
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@Evenstar

So knowing all this, lets say that a Klaxes trader? I think that is the term, establishes a factory on a human planet. Seeing as how the Klaxes see no need to agitate for better safety standards, the human workers go on strike. Each one of them demonstrating loudly and violently for better working conditions, safety standards, and pay. Each of them forgoing their own wages for the good of the whole. The authorities of course move to break the strike, but no matter how hard they pressure individuals, physically or mentally, they refuse to break until their demands as a group are met. Teargas, water cannons, prison, but no matter how hard they lean on the workers they refuse to go back to work, and they refuse to let anyone else go to work at the factory.

Basically until the union boss thinks he got what he came for and tells everyone to go back to work.

What would they make of that?
 
Professor Vesca said:
@Evenstar

So knowing all this, lets say that a Klaxes trader? I think that is the term, establishes a factory on a human planet. Seeing as how the Klaxes see no need to agitate for better safety standards, the human workers go on strike. Each one of them demonstrating loudly and violently for better working conditions, safety standards, and pay. Each of them forgoing their own wages for the good of the whole. The authorities of course move to break the strike, but no matter how hard they pressure individuals, physically or mentally, they refuse to break until their demands as a group are met. Teargas, water cannons, prison, but no matter how hard they lean on the workers they refuse to go back to work, and they refuse to let anyone else go to work at the factory.

Basically until the union boss thinks he got what he came for and tells everyone to go back to work.

What would they make of that?
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Uh... I think your premise is faulty, in that a Klaxes trader would probably go along with human trade regulations on a human planet in the first place. When in Rome, &c.

Also, why are you positing that the human authorities on this human planet would help break a strike against cruel and inhumane Klaxes labour standards, that are clearly in violation of human law?

The scenario as a whole doesn't seem it'd get that far.
 
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LonelyWolf999 said:
On one hand, presumably way less inter-species conflict and general social upheaval, which has caused humanity no end of suffering and may well destroy us before we even leave our planet.
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And will likely destroy our first few attempts to really leave the planet, to be pessimistic.

Professor Vesca said:
What would they make of that?
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While the Klaxes may not have as developed workplace safety rules, I think they have a pretty good idea as to how to make businesses function. With the Klaxes (a species notably more hardy than Humans), you don't need a strong OSHA, but the same does not apply to all species. If a Klaxes industrialist wants to use humans in a factory, it falls upon the Krab to apply the facts on how best to use their Human workers. Just like the industrialist wouldn't have a Thoughtform manually build a house, the industrialist would need to apply the facts of the Human species in order to get the most possible for the least amount of work over the longest period.

Strikes and protests are not conducive to the industrialist's own well being, after all, so giving a little to keep the workers happy and productive leads to greater self profit. (This, coincidentally, is an example of egotistical altruism, which I think the Klaxes would find a rather interesting concept.)
 
I don't think we can afford it for another couple years, we don't have the bulk of raw mats in space.
 
Raiu said:
And will likely destroy our first few attempts to really leave the planet, to be pessimistic.



While the Klaxes may not have as developed workplace safety rules, I think they have a pretty good idea as to how to make businesses function. With the Klaxes (a species notably more hardy than Humans), you don't need a strong OSHA, but the same does not apply to all species. If a Klaxes industrialist wants to use humans in a factory, it falls upon the Krab to apply the facts on how best to use their Human workers. Just like the industrialist wouldn't have a Thoughtform manually build a house, the industrialist would need to apply the facts of the Human species in order to get the most possible for the least amount of work over the longest period.

Strikes and protests are not conducive to the industrialist's own well being, after all, so giving a little to keep the workers happy and productive leads to greater self profit. (This, coincidentally, is an example of egotistical altruism, which I think the Klaxes would find a rather interesting concept.)
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That said the most logical way for Klax industry on Earth would be the following chain of logic:
1) Acquire aquatic low value territory from the locals for a mining/agricultural colony
2) Requires either resource intensive redundant construction of independent aquatic spacelift infrastructure, or access to local terrestrial spacelift
3) Independent aquatic spacelift offers marginal additional security(as humans will hold orbital and systemwide superiority, contesting it is irrational) and the colony is too small to derive efficiency improvements over terrestrial spacelift comparable to the costs of construction.
4) Logically speaking, no Klax can claim expertise over terrestrial transport and spacelift compared to a natural terrestrial spacefaring culture.
5) Certain Thoughtforms and Tradeforms can claim expertise over negotiation with alien cultures for goods and services.
6) Ergo contract Human factors to arrange for terrestrial transport and spacelift.
 
[X] Maybe look into that requisitioning-an-aide thing. You could probably use some competent help around here, to be honest.
 
I just thought of something and it's going to bother me until I ask.

What does GNDN stand for on the GNDN bus tech? Is this tech name a reference to the GNDN tubes joke on the original Star Trek (Goes Nowhere Does Nothing)?
 
Rockeye said:
I just thought of something and it's going to bother me until I ask.

What does GNDN stand for on the GNDN bus tech? Is this tech name a reference to the GNDN tubes joke on the original Star Trek (Goes Nowhere Does Nothing)?
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"Generic Network Device Nexus."

(It's totally a reference to that other GNDN, though. I figured it was appropriate since it's a sci-fi tech that goes everywhere and does everything.)
 
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Hmm Eva with this talk of super-heavy lifting bodies I'm wondering if we also have active-support structures somewhere in the Innovation Deck. I'm pretty sure the Klaxes have the background knowledge necessary, though I'm not sure whether it's in their concept space.

If you're not familiar with the term, active-support structures are structures held in shape or in place or up by streams or loops of matter instead of by traditional tensile or compressive strength. It's a way to make large-scale space-launch systems without the supermaterials required by a traditional space elevator.
 
City in the Sky has to wait until at least 3009 at the ABSOLUTE EARLIEST even if we take drastic measure to boost it, probably until 3011-3014ish, unless superheavy lift platforms are better than I expect.

If my math is right this year Clawpair Orbital will have 35 Raw Materials, 10 Modules.

+10 modules/year (importing 40/yr now), -5 raw mats/year (importing ZERO now).

City in the Sky requires 500 Raw Materials, 100 Modules in two stages.

Here is the absolute fastest way I see to get to City in the Sky:


City In The Sky Plan 1: Throw everything we have at it - stop production of the Carcina II, stop orbital manufacturing completely (Size 30 stuff --> Size 20 stuff, slows us down), stop bringing up reaction mass.

3005 (next turn). Orbital lift: 60. In 1 year we can import 40 modules, 20 raw materials. New total 50mods/60mats (25 renewable production)

3006. Now orbital lift is 70, because we've completed the logistics net. Import 70 raw materials. New total 50mods/155mats.

3007. Assume now orbital lift is 90 (generous - assume 20 bonus lift from the superheavy platforms building, but I don't know the stats yet). Import 70 raw materials, 20 modules. Build the first stage of City In The Sky. New total 20 mods/0 mats

3008. Assume now orbital lift is 110 (generous estimate). Import 30 modules, 80 raw materials. New total 50/105.

3009. Assume orbital lift is 130 (generous estimate). Import 130 raw materials. Build the second stage of City In The Sky. New total 0/10.


City In The Sky Plan 2: Continue manufacturing modules on Clawpair, finish the Carcina II, allow 10 reaction mass/year in the export budget for exploration.

3005 (next turn). Orbital lift: 60. In 1 year we can import 40 modules, 10 raw materials, 10 RM. New total 20 mods/40 mats.

3006. Now orbital lift is 70, because we've completed the logistics net. Import 40 modules, 20 raw materials, 10 RM. New total 30 mods/55 mats.

3007. Now orbital lift is 90 (generous estimate). Import 40 modules, 40 raw materials, 10 RM. New total 40 mods/90 mats.

3008. Now orbital lift is 110 (generous estimate), because we've completed the logistics net. Import 10 modules, 90 raw materials, 10 RM. New total 50 mods/175 mats. The Carcina II is completed this year and only required 20 modules to finish. We do NOT start a new ship right away, focusing on completing City In The Sky.

3009. Now orbital lift is 130 (generous estimate). Import 0 modules, 120 raw materials, 10 RM. Build the first stage of City In The Sky. New total 20 mods/40 mats. We do not start building a new ship.

3010. Now orbital lift is 150 (generous estimate). Import 0 modules, 140 raw materials, 10 RM. New total 40 mods/175 mats. We do not start building a new ship.

3011. Now orbital lift is 170 (generous estimate). Import 0 modules, 80 raw materials, 10 RM, whatever we want with the spare 80 lift. Build the second stage of City In The Sky. New total 10 mods/0 mats. We can now start building a new ship without further delaying City In The Sky.
 
Evenstar said:
I'm writing it, I'm writing it!

I will note, though, that you're failing to take into account the possibility of asteroid mining, which generates resources that don't take up export cap.
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Okay, I will chill.

I don't have hard numbers for asteroid mining EITHER :p. The asteroid mining bay costs 100 mats to build, but we need some sort of ship to go retrieve asteroids, do we not? ...Can a ship have more than 1 asteroid harness?
 
Don't forget too that the maximum contribution limit is just the maximum amount we can put in each year. Theoretically we can probably get by by contributing 1 Raw Material and Module each year. It would just take forever.

It's also theoretical because I suspect if we tried doing that Evenstar would kill us IRL somehow, not to mention the mess it would cause us in-quest. So I'd say there is probably some minimum contribution level, it's just 'eats everything you can give it once below a certain level'.
 
Contributing 1 module a year It would definitely make keeping track of the industry status and putting together industry reports more of a pain, yes.:mob:
 
veekie said:
Main issue is atmospheric drag, but in theory it does actually work for its stated purpose of providing a support structure without the tensile strength demands of even a semirigid structure.
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For sure, it's just that the inevitable wear and tear and, yanno, constant shower of only somewhat predictable bullet rain.
 
Umi-san said:
For sure, it's just that the inevitable wear and tear and, yanno, constant shower of only somewhat predictable bullet rain.
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Actually I believe thats supposed to be a feature, as you could easily and readily replenish and replace the supply of balls revolving as they degrade, whereas with any kind of semi-rigid structure replacing any segment is a major operation, which is the big issue of a conventional space elevator, needing a functionally indestructible material due to the great length, stresses and impracticality of replacement parts.
 
veekie said:
Actually I believe thats supposed to be a feature, as you could easily and readily replenish and replace the supply of balls revolving as they degrade, whereas with any kind of semi-rigid structure replacing any segment is a major operation, which is the big issue of a conventional space elevator, needing a functionally indestructible material due to the great length, stresses and impracticality of replacement parts.
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I meant for the things accelerating the balls, but also the shower of metallic fragments from the rapid heating and cooling might be an issue, too. It seems like it would be a lot more wear and a lot more energy in exchange for more conventional materials that are easier to replace, basically.
 
Pyro Hawk said:
Don't forget too that the maximum contribution limit is just the maximum amount we can put in each year.
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I think the only real reason to do this sort of thing would be to get around storage constraints. With the latest Inflatable Section, we'll have 275/60 storage on the orbital, enough to hold all we need to do the maximum contribution.
 
[X] Maybe look into that requisitioning-an-aide thing. You could probably use some competent help around here, to be honest.
 
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