globalwarmth
ruining the weather.
- Location
- Polar ice caps
I've fired a potato canon and a gun that fires supersonic gene altering gold nanoparticles
Small Arms Commission Quest
Light(er) Machine Gun Commission Stage Three
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
With the decision to split the competition into weight classes, a request for submissions was put out.
The Substitute Standard Heavy Machine gun category had four promising entrants, with most entrants scared off by the weight restrictions.
As a reference for cost, the Arbatescu rifle is 1₮50, while the M.853 Holborn-Arbatescu Machine Gun is 45₮15.
The Cirno Machine gun is a relatively complex gas operated tilting-bolt machine gun. It is air cooled, belt fed, and as a result has a 18kg and 1040mm long gun body with a 711mm barrel. Specifications call for a 400 round per minute firing rate, which can likely be sustained for a minute or two at least although limited long term as the gun fires from a closed bolt somewhat negating the best efforts of the cast aluminium radiator. The tripod is significantly simplified from the standard model to try and cut 7.4kg (and just barely doesn't make it at 18.5kg,) and lacks gearing for elevation and traverse, as well as locks for either. Estimated price of the Cirno is 48₮120.
The Handel Schweres Maschinengewehr is an Irmionic-designed short recoil toggle locked system like most heavy machine guns, but is air cooled and fires from an open bolt at a blistering 550rpm. Thanks to some clever clever design work, the action is significantly lighter and simpler than the Holborn-Arbatescu, and uses a much heavier fluted barrel for cooling instead. This overall resulted in a 13kg and 1120mm long gun body with a 716mm barrel. The tripod is 17.9kg but is somehow even more bare-bones than that of the Cirno, and only has a two position height adjustment. Estimated price of the Handel Schweres Maschinengewehr is 43₮40.
The Mornay Maschinengewehr is particularly unique, being a screw-delayed blowback action, and managed to make weight with a lighter, compact receiver, to the point where without the 3kg of water needed for the jacket, it is 17.5kg with an 1100mm gun body and a 600mm barrel . Feeding is done with a rotary spool like some early Holborn models, and is relatively robust. The tripod is even lighter at only 12kg, but is just barely tall enough to allow the gun to feed reliably from a standard ammunition box, while also being effectively just a bare pintle mount without any forms of adjustment. Estimated cost of the Mornay is 42₮10.
Continuing the delayed blowback category, and rounding out the heavy category is Abram Topani's submission. The Topani Maschinengewehr is a toggle delayed blowback, relying on pure mechanical disadvantage to contain the cartridge until such time as pressure has dropped to a safe level. The cyclic rate of the action is 400rpm Not bothering to cut weight to the extent called for by the commission, the Topani has a 20kg body, uses 3kg of water in its water jacket, and is 1067mm long with a 527mm barrel. The tripod is also 20kg, but has tubular continuously adjustable height legs and geared elevation and traverse. Estimated cost of the Topani is 38₮149
The Manportable category, despite being subject to more stringent restrictions had a wider field of entrants at five.
Viktor Schneider, a veteran turned employee of a state armory, submitted an automatic rifle design based off of our current service rifle. The rifle uses a gas-operated piston running under the barrel to unlock and open the bolt, which is then returned to position by a spring contained in a metal enclosure behind the bolt, stripping another round from the top-mounted, detachable 32-round box magazine and allowing the firearm to cycle again. Further modifications to make the final automatic rifle design better suited for sustained fire include the elimination of some wooden furniture on the gun, a simple bipod, a finned barrel, and a modified receiver design to cover up the moving parts used to automatically cycle the rifle. Cyclic rate is 450rpm. Overall weight is 8kg and length is 1042mm with a 686mm barrel. Estimated cost of the Schneider is 35₮100.
The Handel Leichtes Maschinengewehr is an Irmionic-designed short recoil toggle locked system like most heavy machine guns, but is air cooled and fires from an open bolt at 550rpm. Thanks to some clever clever design work, the action is significantly lighter and simpler than the Holborn-Arbatescu, and uses a much heavier fluted barrel for cooling instead. This overall resulted in a 13kg without ammunition and has a 1120mm long gun body with a 716mm barrel. The Handel light entry is fitted with a simple bipod folding bipod, and replaced the butterfly trigger with a pistol grip and a buttcap on the back of the receiver. Estimated price of the Handel Leichtes Maschinengewehr is 39₮149.
The Montel Makina Fusila is a frankly unique concept for an automatic weapon from Euskadia. The overall action hurts to think about but can best be described as a short-recoil action, with a non-reciprocating, swinging breech block, fired from a closed bolt. The action is notionally capable of a fairly slow 360-400 rpm The overall weapon is quite light at only 10kg unloaded, and according to the documentation the heavily finned barrel and barrel extension can be pulled out out of the jacket and receiver and replaced with a new barrel fairly quickly in the field. The thirty round magazines of the Montel are notably simple, with the feedlips being actually integrated into the receiver. Overall length of the Montel is 1143mm with a 583mm barrel. Fairly uniquely the Montel can easily swap the bipod out for a pintle if needed for a specific role. Estimated cost of the Montel is 46₮130.
The Frankengatsch Leichtes Maschinengewehr is a long stroke gas-piston operated rotating bolt weapon. It has a 47 round pan magazine indexed by the action, and uses a cast aluminum radiator inside a shroud/flash hider to cool the action, necessitated to fire for any length of time thanks to its astounding 550rpm cyclic rate. The Frankengatsch is of roughly middling weight at 11.8kg and is 1283mm long with a 666mm long barrel. Otherwise descended from the Frankengatsch pistol, the action is reasonably complex with an adjustable gas regulator among other things. A bipod is mounted to the shroud allowing for ground firing, although provisions have been made for attaching a yoke to let the gun take advantage of a pintle mount if available. Estimated cost of the Frankengatsch is 49₮149.
The Balzac Portative is a Balkh-designed air-cooled long stroke gas operated weapon that fires from an open bolt. Uniquely for the competition the Balzac offers a semi-automatic firing mode as well as fully automatic. The Portative locks using a rotary nut mounted on the barrel extension which is operated by the piston, and locks into serrations on the bolt. Because of the unique offering of selective firing, the thankfully non reciprocating charging handle on the back of the action is also the fire selector, and is pulled back into where the stock would normally be to change positions. The Portative, like all Balzac guns uses a thirty round metallic feed strip for feeding, allowing continuous firing until the finned barrel overheats. With the unique small tripod, the Balzac Portative weighs only 12.8kg, although the tripod can be unlocked for further weight reduction or to use the yoke and pintle it rides on to mount it to a fixed position. Overall length is 1190mm with a 565mm barrel, and the cyclic rate on full auto is 500rpm. Estimated cost of the Balzac Portative is 45₮20.
With nine total weapons, it would be advisable to downselect in at least one category before handing a selection over to the testing team, but this is not a necessity.
(This will again be vote by plan.)
The Substitute Standard Heavy Machine gun category had four promising entrants, with most entrants scared off by the weight restrictions.
As a reference for cost, the Arbatescu rifle is 1₮50, while the M.853 Holborn-Arbatescu Machine Gun is 45₮15.
The Cirno Machine gun is a relatively complex gas operated tilting-bolt machine gun. It is air cooled, belt fed, and as a result has a 18kg and 1040mm long gun body with a 711mm barrel. Specifications call for a 400 round per minute firing rate, which can likely be sustained for a minute or two at least although limited long term as the gun fires from a closed bolt somewhat negating the best efforts of the cast aluminium radiator. The tripod is significantly simplified from the standard model to try and cut 7.4kg (and just barely doesn't make it at 18.5kg,) and lacks gearing for elevation and traverse, as well as locks for either. Estimated price of the Cirno is 48₮120.
The Handel Schweres Maschinengewehr is an Irmionic-designed short recoil toggle locked system like most heavy machine guns, but is air cooled and fires from an open bolt at a blistering 550rpm. Thanks to some clever clever design work, the action is significantly lighter and simpler than the Holborn-Arbatescu, and uses a much heavier fluted barrel for cooling instead. This overall resulted in a 13kg and 1120mm long gun body with a 716mm barrel. The tripod is 17.9kg but is somehow even more bare-bones than that of the Cirno, and only has a two position height adjustment. Estimated price of the Handel Schweres Maschinengewehr is 43₮40.
The Mornay Maschinengewehr is particularly unique, being a screw-delayed blowback action, and managed to make weight with a lighter, compact receiver, to the point where without the 3kg of water needed for the jacket, it is 17.5kg with an 1100mm gun body and a 600mm barrel . Feeding is done with a rotary spool like some early Holborn models, and is relatively robust. The tripod is even lighter at only 12kg, but is just barely tall enough to allow the gun to feed reliably from a standard ammunition box, while also being effectively just a bare pintle mount without any forms of adjustment. Estimated cost of the Mornay is 42₮10.
Continuing the delayed blowback category, and rounding out the heavy category is Abram Topani's submission. The Topani Maschinengewehr is a toggle delayed blowback, relying on pure mechanical disadvantage to contain the cartridge until such time as pressure has dropped to a safe level. The cyclic rate of the action is 400rpm Not bothering to cut weight to the extent called for by the commission, the Topani has a 20kg body, uses 3kg of water in its water jacket, and is 1067mm long with a 527mm barrel. The tripod is also 20kg, but has tubular continuously adjustable height legs and geared elevation and traverse. Estimated cost of the Topani is 38₮149
The Manportable category, despite being subject to more stringent restrictions had a wider field of entrants at five.
Viktor Schneider, a veteran turned employee of a state armory, submitted an automatic rifle design based off of our current service rifle. The rifle uses a gas-operated piston running under the barrel to unlock and open the bolt, which is then returned to position by a spring contained in a metal enclosure behind the bolt, stripping another round from the top-mounted, detachable 32-round box magazine and allowing the firearm to cycle again. Further modifications to make the final automatic rifle design better suited for sustained fire include the elimination of some wooden furniture on the gun, a simple bipod, a finned barrel, and a modified receiver design to cover up the moving parts used to automatically cycle the rifle. Cyclic rate is 450rpm. Overall weight is 8kg and length is 1042mm with a 686mm barrel. Estimated cost of the Schneider is 35₮100.
The Handel Leichtes Maschinengewehr is an Irmionic-designed short recoil toggle locked system like most heavy machine guns, but is air cooled and fires from an open bolt at 550rpm. Thanks to some clever clever design work, the action is significantly lighter and simpler than the Holborn-Arbatescu, and uses a much heavier fluted barrel for cooling instead. This overall resulted in a 13kg without ammunition and has a 1120mm long gun body with a 716mm barrel. The Handel light entry is fitted with a simple bipod folding bipod, and replaced the butterfly trigger with a pistol grip and a buttcap on the back of the receiver. Estimated price of the Handel Leichtes Maschinengewehr is 39₮149.
The Montel Makina Fusila is a frankly unique concept for an automatic weapon from Euskadia. The overall action hurts to think about but can best be described as a short-recoil action, with a non-reciprocating, swinging breech block, fired from a closed bolt. The action is notionally capable of a fairly slow 360-400 rpm The overall weapon is quite light at only 10kg unloaded, and according to the documentation the heavily finned barrel and barrel extension can be pulled out out of the jacket and receiver and replaced with a new barrel fairly quickly in the field. The thirty round magazines of the Montel are notably simple, with the feedlips being actually integrated into the receiver. Overall length of the Montel is 1143mm with a 583mm barrel. Fairly uniquely the Montel can easily swap the bipod out for a pintle if needed for a specific role. Estimated cost of the Montel is 46₮130.
The Frankengatsch Leichtes Maschinengewehr is a long stroke gas-piston operated rotating bolt weapon. It has a 47 round pan magazine indexed by the action, and uses a cast aluminum radiator inside a shroud/flash hider to cool the action, necessitated to fire for any length of time thanks to its astounding 550rpm cyclic rate. The Frankengatsch is of roughly middling weight at 11.8kg and is 1283mm long with a 666mm long barrel. Otherwise descended from the Frankengatsch pistol, the action is reasonably complex with an adjustable gas regulator among other things. A bipod is mounted to the shroud allowing for ground firing, although provisions have been made for attaching a yoke to let the gun take advantage of a pintle mount if available. Estimated cost of the Frankengatsch is 49₮149.
The Balzac Portative is a Balkh-designed air-cooled long stroke gas operated weapon that fires from an open bolt. Uniquely for the competition the Balzac offers a semi-automatic firing mode as well as fully automatic. The Portative locks using a rotary nut mounted on the barrel extension which is operated by the piston, and locks into serrations on the bolt. Because of the unique offering of selective firing, the thankfully non reciprocating charging handle on the back of the action is also the fire selector, and is pulled back into where the stock would normally be to change positions. The Portative, like all Balzac guns uses a thirty round metallic feed strip for feeding, allowing continuous firing until the finned barrel overheats. With the unique small tripod, the Balzac Portative weighs only 12.8kg, although the tripod can be unlocked for further weight reduction or to use the yoke and pintle it rides on to mount it to a fixed position. Overall length is 1190mm with a 565mm barrel, and the cyclic rate on full auto is 500rpm. Estimated cost of the Balzac Portative is 45₮20.
With nine total weapons, it would be advisable to downselect in at least one category before handing a selection over to the testing team, but this is not a necessity.
(This will again be vote by plan.)
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globalwarmth
ruining the weather.
- Location
- Polar ice caps
Gotta admit I've got no idea what anything of this means. I'm just biased against water. if we ever fight not!Ottomans we don't want to have thirsty guns in the desert.
Pew pew or pewpewpew?
Long or short?
Pew pew or pewpewpew?
Long or short?
Grin_Reaper
Shadow Cabal Space Pirate
- Location
- Space Battleship Pennsylvania
Well I think one thing that's clear enough is that the weight restrictions for the HMG tripod were just too ambitious. No matter what HMGs are selected they should be allowed to offer heavier, more capable tripods as long as the overall weight doesn't exceed the limit.
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
It's an MG08. It's got the Schlittenlafette, total weight breaks down as 26.5 kg gun body + 4 kg water + 38.5kg mount, and it fires at 450rpm for as long as you can keep it fed.
As a Maxim it's really well made, ridiculously durable, and perfectly viable in indirect fire as well as mowing through natives, enemy infantry, trade unionists and other enemies of the state in direct fire.
Grin_Reaper
Shadow Cabal Space Pirate
- Location
- Space Battleship Pennsylvania
it's heavier but as far as the tripod goes, as I said, it doesn't appear that we can get a tripod as light as we asked for that has, well, any features. And the gun is heavier, but not by much. And is still considerably lighter than the existing design.
As I said, tell him to focus on accessories like the tripods and perhaps relax the limits on tripods, but for better or worse the weight limit for the gun was set and we can't be seen to change it just to accommodate the only entrant, our colleague, who couldn't meet it.
I agree that we were too ambitious with the tripod restrictions. We should probably see what can be done about that within reason. I have no strong opinions on the HMG side of things yet.
On the man portable side of things, a few thoughts:
I like part commonality. It should help with logistics, field repair and getting production off the ground. I consider it a real plus for the Schneider design, and a somewhat smaller plus for going with both the Handel Leichtes and Handel Schweres designs together.
I want to like the Montel Makina Fusila, but an action that "hurts to think about" doesn't fill me with confidence. The Frankengatsch design, on the other hand, I don't particularly want to like, and the fact that the action is described as "complex" fills me with even less confidence.
In fact, I'm not a huge fan of that feed system but otherwise this one is sounding pretty nice. What I really like, though, is the direction having something like this in the field might take future rifle or SMG competitions.
On the man portable side of things, a few thoughts:
I like part commonality. It should help with logistics, field repair and getting production off the ground. I consider it a real plus for the Schneider design, and a somewhat smaller plus for going with both the Handel Leichtes and Handel Schweres designs together.
I want to like the Montel Makina Fusila, but an action that "hurts to think about" doesn't fill me with confidence. The Frankengatsch design, on the other hand, I don't particularly want to like, and the fact that the action is described as "complex" fills me with even less confidence.
WANT.
In fact, I'm not a huge fan of that feed system but otherwise this one is sounding pretty nice. What I really like, though, is the direction having something like this in the field might take future rifle or SMG competitions.
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- Location
- California
[X] Plan 8
-[X] Replacement HMG
--[X] Cirno
--[X] Handel
--[X] Mornay
--[X] Also test the M.853 Holborn-Arbatescu for reference.
-[X] LMG
--[X]Advance all
Ultimately, only the Topani has any deal breaker flaws at this stage of the competition. Winnowing them down at this point is premature.
Regardless, we DEFINITELY should test the existing HMG along with our candidates. This is the first competition where we potentially could replace something not obsolete, so not testing the current gun is irresponsible.
-[X] Replacement HMG
--[X] Cirno
--[X] Handel
--[X] Mornay
--[X] Also test the M.853 Holborn-Arbatescu for reference.
-[X] LMG
--[X]Advance all
Ultimately, only the Topani has any deal breaker flaws at this stage of the competition. Winnowing them down at this point is premature.
Regardless, we DEFINITELY should test the existing HMG along with our candidates. This is the first competition where we potentially could replace something not obsolete, so not testing the current gun is irresponsible.
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globalwarmth
ruining the weather.
- Location
- Polar ice caps
[X] Plan 8
- Location
- Brazil
Schneider sounds like he is about to invent the AK.
About the tripod problem, what about:
-[] Have Topanni add elevation and traverse locks into his tripod design, and as long as it doesn't get much heavier, use it as benchmark for all others. If they can't come up with something of that quality at that weight, consider using Topanni tripods on the other guns, as you are dropping his.
About the tripod problem, what about:
-[] Have Topanni add elevation and traverse locks into his tripod design, and as long as it doesn't get much heavier, use it as benchmark for all others. If they can't come up with something of that quality at that weight, consider using Topanni tripods on the other guns, as you are dropping his.
Jenny
anonymous user
- Location
- maryland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
oh god what
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
It already has those.
Grin_Reaper
Shadow Cabal Space Pirate
- Location
- Space Battleship Pennsylvania
I think it's too promising to dismiss, especially considering the price. This isn't a commitment to select it as the final winner, this is just for testing. If the testing results support it winning then we can counter any claims of favoritism, if they emerge. If the testing doesn't justify it winning, then we don't select it.
[X] Plan Magnificent Seven
-[x] Replacement HMG
--[X] Cirno
--[X] Handel
--[X] Topani
--[X] Weight restrictions on tripods are relaxed, heavier tripods may be submitted as long as overall weight does not exceed the 45kg of the original requirement
-[X] LMG
--[X] Schneider
--[X] Handel
--[X] Montel
--[X] Frankengatsch
- Location
- California
I don't agree with relaxing the HMG weight requirements for two reasons:
1) There are going to be trade offs. Yes, none of them are as good as Topani's, but they're lighter. The whole goal for this competition is to find something lighter. Trying to do everything at once will lead to failure.
2) We can afford to risk none of the HMG's being up to scratch, because unlike the rifle or pistol competition, we can rest easy they have a fine HMG already in service. Honestly, the meat of the competition should be, as the titles indicate, the LMG portion.
1) There are going to be trade offs. Yes, none of them are as good as Topani's, but they're lighter. The whole goal for this competition is to find something lighter. Trying to do everything at once will lead to failure.
2) We can afford to risk none of the HMG's being up to scratch, because unlike the rifle or pistol competition, we can rest easy they have a fine HMG already in service. Honestly, the meat of the competition should be, as the titles indicate, the LMG portion.
- Location
- Brazil
Why do you drop the Balzak? The Franken is far, far too expensive.
@Oksbad bad I'm pretty sure we don't need to test the current service gun we plan to replace. It's obviously the benchmark for comparison.
Could you add:
-[] Relax the restrictions on tripods, hold Topani's as benchmark to the others. Worst case, use Topani tripods for the other guns. Their submissions are barebones to the point of non-functionality.
Topani's HMG is significantly cheaper than the others, tho. Might be worth testing.
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SirLagginton
Shadow Cabal Caerbannog Bun-Bun
- Location
- Arrrghhh
[X] Plan Magnificent Seven
Magnificent Seven people, want to elaborate on dropping the Mornay? Yes, the action is a bit screwy (I swear I didn't mean to do that) and the main gun I can find info about that was supposed to work like that was known for embedding shell casings in nearby wooden objects, but I'm not 100% convinced this is enough to drop it sight-unseen.
For that matter, what's your issue with the Balzak? Is it the (wacky, perhaps flimsy, shown-in-parctice-to-be-a-somewhat-silly-approach) feed strips, or something else? The selectable fire is pretty damn cool, and there is maybe a chance we could ask for a belt fed version though that is admittedly pushing it. Everything else about it also sounds pretty decent to me.
For now...
[X] Plan 8
Edit: Actually, @NothingNow, can you give us any insight on how well suited the Balzak design might be to adaptation to a belt or a side-mounted magazine or something? No complicated design studies or anything, just the first impressions of our team who actually have a chance to see how it works when we as players do not.
For that matter, what's your issue with the Balzak? Is it the (wacky, perhaps flimsy, shown-in-parctice-to-be-a-somewhat-silly-approach) feed strips, or something else? The selectable fire is pretty damn cool, and there is maybe a chance we could ask for a belt fed version though that is admittedly pushing it. Everything else about it also sounds pretty decent to me.
For now...
[X] Plan 8
Edit: Actually, @NothingNow, can you give us any insight on how well suited the Balzak design might be to adaptation to a belt or a side-mounted magazine or something? No complicated design studies or anything, just the first impressions of our team who actually have a chance to see how it works when we as players do not.
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globalwarmth
ruining the weather.
- Location
- Polar ice caps
We can't relax guys, we need to be hardass to topani. Specially coming out of the scandal