CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
Small Arms Commission Quest
- Location
- USA
My plan focuses more and logistics and reliability.
For the MG the only real considerable differences there are are that I am demanding a water cooled barrel which would increase the weight, but would also allow a much longer firing time before the barrel overheats, or if using an air cooled barrel, to make it an explicit requirement that the barrel be easy to quickly swap out so when the overheat does happen, firing can continue in a short amount of time. It also explicitly requires that the gun can be broken down into smaller parts so it could be carried around by a few infantrymen rather than having to haul it around on a truck or something.
For the Rifle, I find a flash hider or suppressor unnecessary as typical battlefield conditions are chaotic enough that prioritizing the soldier wielding the anti-tank rifle is going to be a difficult prospect at best, especially when considering that in any entrenched position, they are likely going to be much further back than the initial trench line. I also don't see the need to specifically incorporate features for follow up shots within a minute, as the gun is heavy enough to take recoil pretty well, and if the gun can't fire off another shot in a full minute after the initial shot, the gun is trash regardless, for reference a trained riflemen could put out a sustained 20-30 shots per minute with the Lee Enfield, admittedly a much smaller caliber rifle with an arrangement uniquely suited to rate of fire, but still. Aside from that, I again prefer a specific requirement for easy transportation as a 20-30kg gun is no joke to lug around, and will probably be quite unwieldy with it's barrel length. I specified Bolt action because I don't consider Rate of Fire to be of particular importance, and even then, if it was semiautomatic, the use would likely go to waste as it would require a ridiculous amount of engineering that no one has the time or resources for right now to be able to make use of such a high rate of fire since the shot would likely throw up profuse amounts of dust and make a second shot within 2-3 seconds on the verge of impossible. Semi-automatic also introduces many more parts which in turn increases the likelihood of a malfunction and jam. The barrel wear requirement and maintenance requirement is there for the sake of the gun not having to go back to the armory too often, since these guns badly need to be in the fight as the average squad's answer to any unexpected armor they encounter.
For the MG the only real considerable differences there are are that I am demanding a water cooled barrel which would increase the weight, but would also allow a much longer firing time before the barrel overheats, or if using an air cooled barrel, to make it an explicit requirement that the barrel be easy to quickly swap out so when the overheat does happen, firing can continue in a short amount of time. It also explicitly requires that the gun can be broken down into smaller parts so it could be carried around by a few infantrymen rather than having to haul it around on a truck or something.
For the Rifle, I find a flash hider or suppressor unnecessary as typical battlefield conditions are chaotic enough that prioritizing the soldier wielding the anti-tank rifle is going to be a difficult prospect at best, especially when considering that in any entrenched position, they are likely going to be much further back than the initial trench line. I also don't see the need to specifically incorporate features for follow up shots within a minute, as the gun is heavy enough to take recoil pretty well, and if the gun can't fire off another shot in a full minute after the initial shot, the gun is trash regardless, for reference a trained riflemen could put out a sustained 20-30 shots per minute with the Lee Enfield, admittedly a much smaller caliber rifle with an arrangement uniquely suited to rate of fire, but still. Aside from that, I again prefer a specific requirement for easy transportation as a 20-30kg gun is no joke to lug around, and will probably be quite unwieldy with it's barrel length. I specified Bolt action because I don't consider Rate of Fire to be of particular importance, and even then, if it was semiautomatic, the use would likely go to waste as it would require a ridiculous amount of engineering that no one has the time or resources for right now to be able to make use of such a high rate of fire since the shot would likely throw up profuse amounts of dust and make a second shot within 2-3 seconds on the verge of impossible. Semi-automatic also introduces many more parts which in turn increases the likelihood of a malfunction and jam. The barrel wear requirement and maintenance requirement is there for the sake of the gun not having to go back to the armory too often, since these guns badly need to be in the fight as the average squad's answer to any unexpected armor they encounter.
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[X] Jaeger
I have only lurked in this thread, but I think that Sturmi makes some valid points with his argument.
I have only lurked in this thread, but I think that Sturmi makes some valid points with his argument.
CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
Fair enough, makes sense to me.
[X] Plan Jaeger
[X] Plan Jaeger
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
Alright, I'm angry enough to work on SACQ so I'm calling this.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
I'm having a day, check the discord for details.
CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
Sorry to hear that man. Hope it gets better soon.
Anti-Tank Guns Stage Three.
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
With requirements created, a tender has been sent out, with requests for immediate reply. Six responses came within the week, from five teams at four companies and a state arsenal.
A handful of rifles were sketched out on napkins, all very serious, just with various levels of sanity involved, and could realistically be produced as prototypes within the week.
Abram Topani introduced a proposal for a long recoil, bolt action system that while single shot, uses a piece of metal to allow for a semi-automatic breech. It is expected to weigh 20kg, and has a 1.35m long barrel on an overall length of 2.02m. The design calls for a barrel and breech assembly to recoil in a separate pathway, while the trigger assembly, rear sight, stock, camming surface and bipod are mounted on a stout frame under and around the action. While the rifle does not fit on the sled mount for the Holborn-Arbatescu, it will mount on pintle mounts, some turrets and a Topani tripod. Flash suppression is provided by a suppressor designed by Topani, with a scale model made out of a soup can and a papier-mâché tube standing in for a barrel.
The Baal team built a long recoil action rifle, the "Baal RG14.5" derived from their pistol. It weighs 23kg empty, and is a semi-automatic action, firing from an open bolt. Having listened finally to someone, the design does not eject straight back and uses a new concept they call "constant recoil," to make the weapon less punishing to fire (through the use of a number of heavy springs to provide progressive deceleration to the barrel and bolt.) It has a magazine capacity of five rounds from a detachable box magazine, theoretically fits in a Holborn-Arbatescu sled mount (provided one detaches and then reattaches a combined flash hider/"air brake",) and can be fitted with adapters to use other existing tripods. Barrel length is 120cm and overall length is 2.2m.
Gunsmithing Apprentices Matei Arbatescu (yes, the eldest Arbatescu boy) and Herschel Rivkes from the Joachimsthal Arsenal designed a rather complex if ingenious design of bolt action rifle. While it is single shot, it uses a rotating barrel extension to lock, and uses a monolithic bolt, with a fairly stout mainspring behind it to soak up some of the recoil. It is the most compact rifle design, as the action only recoils on a hydrospring buffer about 60mm. The bolt handle is the pistol grip and trigger assembly to further reduce the amount of space required. It weighs only 17kg with the specified stout bipod (mounted on an extension of the stock, which also hosts the rear sight,) and 14kg without. It can easily fit on an M.853 sled, through the use of an adapter replacing the bipod. Barrel length is 120cm, overall length is 1.5m. The flash hider is also something Arbatescu and Rivkes called a muzzle brake (designed by Rivkes,) and is purported to work like a muzzle booster in reverse. The provided example is a block of wood with a number of holes drilled in it facing angled slightly backwards.
The machine guns were a bit more complicated, and will of course take longer to actually produce (maybe a month for some,) but should provide excellent results in multiple roles.
Mrs. Arbatescu sent in plans for an aircooled version of the Holborn-Arbatescu scaled up to 14.5mm with some action modifications derived from the Handel Maschinengewehr family, and at this stage fires from an open bolt. It fires from a belt, and weighs 51kg without a tripod. Barrel length is 135cm, overall length is 2m, and the anticipated maximum rate of fire is 600rpm, although for anti-ground use that likely be reduced to 400rpm. An adapter has already been designed to make it fit an M.853 sled mount or machine gun ports on existing armored vehicles, but a special simple tripod or artillery carriage can also be designed to make transportation and deployment easier.
The Baal team built a long recoil action machine gun the "Baal SMG14.5" derived from their pistol, and mostly identical to their rifle. It weighs 28kg empty, and is fully automatic or semi-automatic, firing from an open bolt up to 240 rounds per minute. Having listened finally to someone, the design does not eject straight back and uses a new concept they call "constant recoil," to make the weapon less punishing to fire (through the use of a number of heavy springs and a hydraulic buffer to provide progressive deceleration to the barrel and bolt.) It has a magazine capacity of twenty rounds from a detachable box magazine, theoretically fits in a Holborn-Arbatescu sled mount (provided one detaches and then reattaches a combined flash hider/"air brake",) and can be fitted with adapters to use other existing tripods. Barrel length is 120cm and overall length is 2.2m. Cooling is improved over the basic Baal RG14.5 through the use of an aluminum barrel radiator and holes cut in the receiver tube to allow better ventilation
Dr. Hoel Frankengatsch is proposing a 14.5mm version of the Frankengatsch Leichtes Maschinengewehr. It is again a long stroke gas-piston operated rotating bolt weapon firing from an open bolt. It has a fifteen round box magazine indexed by the action, and uses a cast aluminum radiator inside a shroud/flash hider to cool the action, necessitated to fire for any length of time thanks to its maximum 350rpm cyclic rate. The Frankengatsch is of roughly middling weight at 33.8kg and is 1.6m long with a 110cm barrel. Otherwise descended from the Frankengatsch Leichtes Maschinengewehr, the action is reasonably complex with an adjustable gas regulator among other things, mostly derived from the current production model. A bipod is possibly mounted to the action allowing for ground firing, although it is better fired from a vehicle or fixed mount. Attachment to an M.853 sled would require removing the mounting ring from the sled to mount a specialized adapter, but should fit easily in all other existing mounts.
With six total weapons, it might be advisable to downselect in at least one category before handing a selection over to the testing team, but this is not a necessity.
(This will again be vote by plan.)
A handful of rifles were sketched out on napkins, all very serious, just with various levels of sanity involved, and could realistically be produced as prototypes within the week.
Abram Topani introduced a proposal for a long recoil, bolt action system that while single shot, uses a piece of metal to allow for a semi-automatic breech. It is expected to weigh 20kg, and has a 1.35m long barrel on an overall length of 2.02m. The design calls for a barrel and breech assembly to recoil in a separate pathway, while the trigger assembly, rear sight, stock, camming surface and bipod are mounted on a stout frame under and around the action. While the rifle does not fit on the sled mount for the Holborn-Arbatescu, it will mount on pintle mounts, some turrets and a Topani tripod. Flash suppression is provided by a suppressor designed by Topani, with a scale model made out of a soup can and a papier-mâché tube standing in for a barrel.
The Baal team built a long recoil action rifle, the "Baal RG14.5" derived from their pistol. It weighs 23kg empty, and is a semi-automatic action, firing from an open bolt. Having listened finally to someone, the design does not eject straight back and uses a new concept they call "constant recoil," to make the weapon less punishing to fire (through the use of a number of heavy springs to provide progressive deceleration to the barrel and bolt.) It has a magazine capacity of five rounds from a detachable box magazine, theoretically fits in a Holborn-Arbatescu sled mount (provided one detaches and then reattaches a combined flash hider/"air brake",) and can be fitted with adapters to use other existing tripods. Barrel length is 120cm and overall length is 2.2m.
Gunsmithing Apprentices Matei Arbatescu (yes, the eldest Arbatescu boy) and Herschel Rivkes from the Joachimsthal Arsenal designed a rather complex if ingenious design of bolt action rifle. While it is single shot, it uses a rotating barrel extension to lock, and uses a monolithic bolt, with a fairly stout mainspring behind it to soak up some of the recoil. It is the most compact rifle design, as the action only recoils on a hydrospring buffer about 60mm. The bolt handle is the pistol grip and trigger assembly to further reduce the amount of space required. It weighs only 17kg with the specified stout bipod (mounted on an extension of the stock, which also hosts the rear sight,) and 14kg without. It can easily fit on an M.853 sled, through the use of an adapter replacing the bipod. Barrel length is 120cm, overall length is 1.5m. The flash hider is also something Arbatescu and Rivkes called a muzzle brake (designed by Rivkes,) and is purported to work like a muzzle booster in reverse. The provided example is a block of wood with a number of holes drilled in it facing angled slightly backwards.
The machine guns were a bit more complicated, and will of course take longer to actually produce (maybe a month for some,) but should provide excellent results in multiple roles.
Mrs. Arbatescu sent in plans for an aircooled version of the Holborn-Arbatescu scaled up to 14.5mm with some action modifications derived from the Handel Maschinengewehr family, and at this stage fires from an open bolt. It fires from a belt, and weighs 51kg without a tripod. Barrel length is 135cm, overall length is 2m, and the anticipated maximum rate of fire is 600rpm, although for anti-ground use that likely be reduced to 400rpm. An adapter has already been designed to make it fit an M.853 sled mount or machine gun ports on existing armored vehicles, but a special simple tripod or artillery carriage can also be designed to make transportation and deployment easier.
The Baal team built a long recoil action machine gun the "Baal SMG14.5" derived from their pistol, and mostly identical to their rifle. It weighs 28kg empty, and is fully automatic or semi-automatic, firing from an open bolt up to 240 rounds per minute. Having listened finally to someone, the design does not eject straight back and uses a new concept they call "constant recoil," to make the weapon less punishing to fire (through the use of a number of heavy springs and a hydraulic buffer to provide progressive deceleration to the barrel and bolt.) It has a magazine capacity of twenty rounds from a detachable box magazine, theoretically fits in a Holborn-Arbatescu sled mount (provided one detaches and then reattaches a combined flash hider/"air brake",) and can be fitted with adapters to use other existing tripods. Barrel length is 120cm and overall length is 2.2m. Cooling is improved over the basic Baal RG14.5 through the use of an aluminum barrel radiator and holes cut in the receiver tube to allow better ventilation
Dr. Hoel Frankengatsch is proposing a 14.5mm version of the Frankengatsch Leichtes Maschinengewehr. It is again a long stroke gas-piston operated rotating bolt weapon firing from an open bolt. It has a fifteen round box magazine indexed by the action, and uses a cast aluminum radiator inside a shroud/flash hider to cool the action, necessitated to fire for any length of time thanks to its maximum 350rpm cyclic rate. The Frankengatsch is of roughly middling weight at 33.8kg and is 1.6m long with a 110cm barrel. Otherwise descended from the Frankengatsch Leichtes Maschinengewehr, the action is reasonably complex with an adjustable gas regulator among other things, mostly derived from the current production model. A bipod is possibly mounted to the action allowing for ground firing, although it is better fired from a vehicle or fixed mount. Attachment to an M.853 sled would require removing the mounting ring from the sled to mount a specialized adapter, but should fit easily in all other existing mounts.
With six total weapons, it might be advisable to downselect in at least one category before handing a selection over to the testing team, but this is not a necessity.
(This will again be vote by plan.)
CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
God, that thing really was a monster, wasn't it.
The whole "constant recoil" idea sounds kind of fiddly and expensive to me, and my impression was that we needed something decent that could be rushed out the door. I say we keep the Topani in because it sounds fairly solid and the Arbatescu-Rivkes because if it actually works well while remaining that compact it would be excellent for offensive operations, which is one of the things we really need a mobile AT rifle for.
For MGs, I like the sound of the Arbatescu and the Frankengatsch models, as both seem like they would be quick to start producing given that they're modifications of existing designs. Baal, once again, looks too fiddly for my taste, and an MG based on a pistol strikes me as being... unstable.
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Think of the specific pistol you're talking about. That thing made an AK look like it was made of glass and scared the testing team so much that they refused to fire it. It was basically built to be a longarm for a Terminator. It was what you got when you said, "Hey, I want a Browning M2 cut down to fit in a pistol holster."
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7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Basically, constant recoil means they're spreading it out so it's less punchy. The spring takes in some of the force and means the gun flies around less, in exchange for throwing the gun around longer. It's not terribly helpful, but it does work well enough so it feels like you're getting run over by a Prius instead of a F-150.
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
And this time it's got a giant buffer so it won't go flying out of the receiver and nail someone in the face (also because now the squishy bits are around the receiver tube so there's nothing for the barrel and breech to hit.)
CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
Good point, I really should have gone back and taken a second look at the pistol tests.
- Location
- Somewhere
The Baal Rifle *might* be fun if it works as advertised, because it would presumably make it less likely that you would have to reacquire whatever you're aiming at. Also has a magazine. That's also why we test it: to find out if it actually works.
On the other hand, we might just want a simple rifle that just *works.* And we should probably downselect. Thoughts?
On the other hand, we might just want a simple rifle that just *works.* And we should probably downselect. Thoughts?
CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
I'm not really sure if there's anything easy to cut. I was going to suggest we drop the Baal MG but if it ends up working it could be excellent.
- Location
- Somewhere
Since we're asking about if a rifle would work on a sled, what exactly is the difference between a rifle and an MG in this context? Is it "rifle moves around, MG is an emplacement," or is it just a "high-low" thing where we have lotsa rifles and a few MGs backing things up?
Also, @NothingNow do you want a table for this?
Also, @NothingNow do you want a table for this?
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
Yeah, sure go ahead.
I'm inclined to say go ahead with both the Baal rifle and the Baal machine gun just for the virtues of the rifle and the parts intercompatibility between the two. Pick a backup rifle just in case and another MG to phase into later.
Remember, the group chose the round with a 1-in-3 penetration chance. Recoil reduction and semiautomatic fire from a removable magazine will cover a lot of sins.
Remember, the group chose the round with a 1-in-3 penetration chance. Recoil reduction and semiautomatic fire from a removable magazine will cover a lot of sins.
- Location
- Somewhere
Here comes the table:
Should I add a "bells and whistles" column?
Should I add a "bells and whistles" column?
|
Name
|
Action
|
Weight
|
Barrel Length
|
OAL
|
Magazine
|
RoF (HMG)
|
Sled
|
Pintle
|
Tripod
|
|
Topani Rifle
|
Bolt-action w/ SA breech
|
20kg
|
1.35m
|
2.02m
|
1
|
|
|
X
|
X
|
|
Baal Rifle
|
Semi-auto, open bolt
|
23kg
|
1.20m
|
2.2m
|
5
|
|
X*
|
|
X
|
|
Arbatescu-Rivkes
|
Bolt action single shot
|
17kg/14kg
|
1.2m
|
1.5m
|
1
|
|
X*
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arbatescu MG
|
Full Auto, Belt
|
51kg (no tripod)
|
1.35m
|
2m
|
Nope
|
600 rpm/400 rpm
|
X
|
|
X*
|
|
Baal HMG
|
Full/Semi, Magazine fed
|
28kg
|
1.20m
|
2.20m
|
20
|
240 rpm
|
X*
|
|
X
|
|
Frankengatsch
|
Gas-piston open bolt FA
|
33.8kg
|
1.10m
|
1.6m
|
15
|
350 rpm
|
X*
|
X
|
X
|