DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'd call the quest 'A Practical Guide To Dragon Hunting'
Small Arms Commission Quest
I'd call the quest 'A Practical Guide To Dragon Hunting'
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
If you do it I'll PM you the Irromic Artillery Tables.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Develop a 13×85mm rimless necked cartridge capable of firing a lead 48g spitzer boat tail bullet with muzzle velocity of at least 560 m/s
-[X] Develop an armor piercing bullet of matching dimensions of the lead bullet of hardened tooling steel with two copper driving bands and a lead coating
-[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
-[X] Develop a lead bullet containing a phosphate tracer.
[X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 600 m/s.
--[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
-[X] 225 gr bullet
-[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Rimless cartridge
-[X] Develop an armor piercing bullet of matching dimensions of the lead bullet of hardened tooling steel with two copper driving bands and a lead coating
-[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
-[X] Develop a lead bullet containing a phosphate tracer.
[X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 600 m/s.
--[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
-[X] 225 gr bullet
-[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Rimless cartridge
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
Eh, an interim tally for this to get an idea of how things stand.
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API
[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
[X] 25×152mm
-[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
-[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
-[X]Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
-[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API
[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
[X] 25×152mm
-[X] 180g Projectile ± 10g
-[X] 650 m/s minimum muzzle velocity
-[X]Higher velocities (750 m/s +) preferred out of barrels ranging from 1250mm to 2000mm
-[X] Should work well in automatic feed systems (belt, box magazine, hopper, etc)
CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
What about the possibility of creating an anti-armor rifle grenade mated to the existing Arbatescu system, or re-using the idea of creating such a system by cannibalizing some of our old falling-block guns? Would the use of a heavier 10mm cartridge allow for a heavier payload, or improve the range and/or velocity of the current rifle grenade?
Last edited:
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
Not really. An airborne brick (like a grenade) has an issue with decreasing returns from muzzle velocity, and everything so far has indicated this weapon is to expand the engagment range outside of rifle grenade range.
CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
Huh, interesting. Thought I might have stumbled onto a cost-effective winner there. What about the possibility of making anti-tank mines as an additional countermeasure? It doesn't solve the current mobility issue, obviously, but seeing as tanks/armored cars are used primarily on the offensive it strikes me as a possible solution for defensive positions alongside whatever weapon we actually come up with.
Mines are not that good.
First, you need a lot of them - tank will not ride all over the field to get onto lone mine. Means they're expensive.
Second, minefield takes time to create - and while that is possible in static defense, it doesn't do anything when tanks are used to counter your own offensives.
First, you need a lot of them - tank will not ride all over the field to get onto lone mine. Means they're expensive.
Second, minefield takes time to create - and while that is possible in static defense, it doesn't do anything when tanks are used to counter your own offensives.
7734
Trust and verify.
- Location
- Philmont
The problem is that the other side gets a vote, and the detonation systems we have at this minute are pretty dangerous to your own guys at the moment. A mine can take out a tank, but it's a reactive weapon- and reactive weapons are generally very double-edged swords.
CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
Thanks for helping me out with this stuff, as stated previously I'm not really a gun guy so I'm just spitballing ideas here. Reading back through the thread, I find it interesting that dragons are generally hunted with mountain guns, and I'll take the QM's use of 37mm as the baseline caliber. If this is the case, are there domestic manufacturers already making 37mm sport guns for the purpose of dragon-hunting? Civilian versions of these weapons would likely be stripped-down and mobile seeing as citizens, even wealthy ones, usually lack the supply train of a military unit. If this is the case, militarizing a "sport" mountain gun could be a good, relatively mobile option, and possibly cheaper depending on how much of the original design would have to be modified.
You know, that's actually an interesting thought. There are probably any number of ways that would lack one thing or another we care about, but I'd like to hear more about what exactly is out there of that sort. That said, there probably aren't that many dragon hunters around, so they could be handmade one-offs or surplus actual military mountain guns or something and thus not especially relevant.
Last edited:
CthuluWasRight
Fresh Meat for the SV Grinder
- Location
- Canada
A fair point, although that assumption would likely depend on how rare dragons are in the setting. I would argue that even if these guns are built custom, there would still be much to learn from what are likely stripped-down, simplified designs, lessons we could apply in setting future specifications or modifications for whatever designs are brought forward. The main issue is mobility: no matter how simplified, a 37mm gun isn't exactly a breeze to haul around, even broken up into sections. I recall seeing a Finnish (or maybe Russian) anti-tank rifle that had a sort of ski mount for easy movement: perhaps a suitably rugged sled-mount could help a mountain gun keep up with the cavalry?
To be honest, it doesn't look like the technology is really there yet for the anti-tank weapons I have actually read about, such as the Boys rifle. I think we're going to have some nasty trade-offs between portability, killing power and ease of manufacture.
Last edited:
And yet the Wz.35 is eminently buildable by current technology; it's literally an oversized Mauser action, and the cartridge was designed by basically taking a Mauser 7.92 cartridge and stretching it out like taffy.
Vote @Michael Lewis' gun. Vote the not!Wz.35.
Poland CAN into anti-armor.
(my first two votes are 'these are bullets i recognize' and the third is 'well, i'd prefer a 25mm but we're not getting that man-portable like the other two rounds I picked, so let's go for the next best thing')
[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
-[X] 225 gr bullet
-[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Rimless cartridge
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API
[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
- Location
- Somewhere
[X] 7.92×107mm PaP
-[X] 225 gr bullet
-[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Rimless cartridge
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API
[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
-[X] 225 gr bullet
-[X] 1,275 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Rimless cartridge
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API
[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
- Location
- Somewhere
@N.Now since I think we somehow got several different formattings for the 7.92 PaP round last time, there was some vote management needed. Here's another tally for where things are at the moment.
Also, a reminder that unlike most of the other rounds, the 7.92 one can be used in a magazine-fed, bolt-action single-shot rifle that doesn't weigh a ton.
Also, a reminder that unlike most of the other rounds, the 7.92 one can be used in a magazine-fed, bolt-action single-shot rifle that doesn't weigh a ton.
Last edited:
Himmelhand, Laundreu, Michael Lewis
Might I suggest that you switch your votes from the Kondor to something less popular that the 7.92? This would leave it tied for third and keep the Kondor in the top three. Best chance to have the 7.92 go forward.
Edit: Can't numbers. Leaving this as a monument to my shame. In my defense, just spent the last several hours outside standing around in 35C/95F weather with minimal shade. That might count for something. For some reason I was thinking as if this would double your votes for the 7.92. I really have no idea what my brain just did.
Might I suggest that you switch your votes from the Kondor to something less popular that the 7.92? This would leave it tied for third and keep the Kondor in the top three. Best chance to have the 7.92 go forward.
Edit: Can't numbers. Leaving this as a monument to my shame. In my defense, just spent the last several hours outside standing around in 35C/95F weather with minimal shade. That might count for something. For some reason I was thinking as if this would double your votes for the 7.92. I really have no idea what my brain just did.
Last edited:
- Location
- CT
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API
[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
Leave the 25mm cannons to the other comissions, it's not like they're man portable under normal circumstances.
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API
[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
Leave the 25mm cannons to the other comissions, it's not like they're man portable under normal circumstances.
- Location
- Somewhere in the stacks
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] 14.5x114mm Kondor
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API
[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
[X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 600 m/s.
--[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
-[X] 60g bullet
-[X] 1000 m/s muzzle velocity
-[X] Designed for use in bolt action or MG
-[X] AP or API
[X]Adapt a 20mmx105mm cartridge
-[X] Should fire a projectile of 100g to 120g
-[X] Projectile should be fired at a speed of at least 600 m/s, ideally out of a bolt action or semi-automatic rifle. Bolt action preferred as the complications of putting this size of round in a semi-automatic action seem rather high, but if someone can do it, we'll take a look.
-[X] Investigate possibility of making an explosive round or incendiary round that can be used for anti-material/anti-fortification purposes in addition to anti-armor applications
[X] Develop an 11×65mm rimmed bottleneck round with a lead bullet of at least 27 grams and muzzle velocity of at least 600 m/s.
--[X] Develop an armor shattering bullet of a bronze cap not exceeding 1/8 the length of the round, with the rest to be lead in bronze jacket and one copper driving band.
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
calling it.
Anti-Tank Guns Stage two part two
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
With testing of the three proposed cartridges done, it was time to see what would actually work. All three rounds were tested out of a 1400mm barrel, against an armor plate at fifteen degrees for an effective thickness of 25mm at distances of 100, 300 and 500 meters (as it is unlikely at best for a crew to spot and hit a moving vehicle beyond that distance.)
20x105mm was the worst performer out of the bunch, never managing a clean penetration, and had the lowest initial muzzle energy, below 20kJ. This translated to a 50% chance to penetrate 18mm at 100m, with a total energy of 19kJ, a similar chance of penetration at 300m with penetration dropping to 17mm and energy 16kJ, and at 500m 14mm of penetration at 12kJ. However, this also meant that the 20mm gun would be the lightest on the shooter.
25x152mm is really more suited for a light artillery piece than a rifle. Regardless, the most powerful round used in the testing had an almost non-existent chance of deflection, and with a muzzle energy of 39kJ produced a notable amount of flash and recoil. That said, penetration at 100m was 23mm with a total energy transfer of 37.6kJ. 300m performance was 21mm with 31.7kJ of energy, and at 500m performance dropped to 18mm of penetration at 23.8kJ.
By comparison, 14.5 Kondor is a death ray, being flat shooting, with a one in three chance to penetrate instead of deflect. Muzzle energy was a fair 30kJ, and at 100m this translated to a complete penetration with 28.9kJ of energy. At 300m this drops down to merely 24mm at 24.4kJ, and 500m sees performance of 21mm penetration and 18.3kJ. This astounding performance comes at the cost of a steeply shouldered case and massive case volume to house the powder needed, but it too should be widely applicable.
Indeed, one of the cartridges tested requires too much from a Holborn action, which has been comfortably used in actions with muzzle energies exceeding 70kJ. However, it is doubtful such a weapon can be developed or produced quickly, and would probably weigh north of 100kg with a proper mount. In the meantime, you can probably bang out a good enough rifle within the month.
So then the time has come for a down-select.
Choose one of the three rounds to adopt, and build a weapon around.
[ ]14.5x114 Kondor
[ ]20x105mm
[ ]25x152mm
20x105mm was the worst performer out of the bunch, never managing a clean penetration, and had the lowest initial muzzle energy, below 20kJ. This translated to a 50% chance to penetrate 18mm at 100m, with a total energy of 19kJ, a similar chance of penetration at 300m with penetration dropping to 17mm and energy 16kJ, and at 500m 14mm of penetration at 12kJ. However, this also meant that the 20mm gun would be the lightest on the shooter.
25x152mm is really more suited for a light artillery piece than a rifle. Regardless, the most powerful round used in the testing had an almost non-existent chance of deflection, and with a muzzle energy of 39kJ produced a notable amount of flash and recoil. That said, penetration at 100m was 23mm with a total energy transfer of 37.6kJ. 300m performance was 21mm with 31.7kJ of energy, and at 500m performance dropped to 18mm of penetration at 23.8kJ.
By comparison, 14.5 Kondor is a death ray, being flat shooting, with a one in three chance to penetrate instead of deflect. Muzzle energy was a fair 30kJ, and at 100m this translated to a complete penetration with 28.9kJ of energy. At 300m this drops down to merely 24mm at 24.4kJ, and 500m sees performance of 21mm penetration and 18.3kJ. This astounding performance comes at the cost of a steeply shouldered case and massive case volume to house the powder needed, but it too should be widely applicable.
Indeed, one of the cartridges tested requires too much from a Holborn action, which has been comfortably used in actions with muzzle energies exceeding 70kJ. However, it is doubtful such a weapon can be developed or produced quickly, and would probably weigh north of 100kg with a proper mount. In the meantime, you can probably bang out a good enough rifle within the month.
So then the time has come for a down-select.
Choose one of the three rounds to adopt, and build a weapon around.
[ ]14.5x114 Kondor
[ ]20x105mm
[ ]25x152mm
TortugaGreen
Constantly out of the loop
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X]14.5x114 Kondor
It seems like the least unwieldy of the choices, and it seems to perform quite well.
It seems like the least unwieldy of the choices, and it seems to perform quite well.