Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution

Question for everyone.
What is everyone views on creating improved versions of tanks and aircraft?
I know that a soldier equipped with powered armor and anti-tank missiles can easily destroy tanks as well as provide air support for at least three hours. But, it seems to me that an upgraded "tank" would be very effective against legionnaires. In the last war game, it was shown that the Tigers were very effective at killing legionnaires.

In addition, can anyone inform me just how effective a Legionnaire would be against a normal aircraft? In my mind, a legionnaire can provide ground support from the air, but a legionnaire stands no chance when attacked by military aircraft. Not to mention, a Legionnaire can only fly for about three hours thus a Legionnaire is actually very limited as a ground support weapon from the air when compared to a dedicated military aircraft that can fly for hours.

Basically, my question is whether people think we should create improved versions of fighters and bombers? For air and space combat? As well as creating better versions of the Tiger.
 
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I still think that on a pure survival point we should team up with the Quarians and build a mobile shipyard in the spirit of Homeworld.

The military would definitly aprove as a mobile station able to service dreadnaughts and get to damaged ships that can travel with the fleet and park itself in dark space.

And it would evade completly the weapon based contracts!
 
Preventing enemies from landing anywhere near you seems like it would be counter productive for enemies like the Reapers who as I mentioned would be far more likely to blow up space stations due to being harder to invade and may just have enemies more willing to destroy them if the possibility of occupying them is too difficult. Even if enemies do land on a planet if the cities are well defended it would still be an immense problem for them. Also we don't need to shield the entire planet, just the cities and as I mentioned most races including the Reapers aren't actually that willing to nuke planets or even cities. Also not seeing why we can't have kinetic shields for our planet side cities.

The issue of a space station getting damaged is still an issue since if they can't be reached by certain people in time they could be stuck in a giant coffin. We've seen that the Reapers were able to shut down the Mass Relays cutting off everyone from each other. If the stations can't get the resources due to unforseen circumstances than it could be a serious problem, more so since fixing stations could seriously be expensive and unavoidable since the people living on them are pretty much stuck and the life sustaining system are literally necessary for everyone on said station to live.



1) The Quarians are literally the worst possible example because their immune system is so bad they can only live without suits on their home planet. It was also noted by Shepard themselves in canon that they could have found another planet to live on by ME2 but Tali stated that it would take too long which maybe why the race didn't try that hard to found a new planet. And as I noted garden worlds are actually plentiful to the point that humanity was able to found several dozen colonies on several planets after just a few years on the galactic scene and we growing rapidly. Note that those planets haven't even begun to reach capacity and likely won't for hundreds or even thousands of years.

2) That is defnitely not a problem. I mean for gods sake, our cities IRL don't move and it's not really a problem for the world economy. And again, galactic transportation that lets one travel across the galaxy in days makes it a non issue.

3) Yes it is still not that big an issue as you are making it out to be. Sure it's an issue for some races but not really that many or much. The Elcor can pretty much live anywhere, the Drell just need an arid planet and they are so few having one would mean there wouldn't be issues in finding more until much later, we are probably going to fix the Quarians immune system making it a moot point which would pretty much leave the Volus which is literally just one race where it's a problem for them. So while space habitats could be useful for some races it still isn't necessary for the vast majority of people.



...Didn't you literally just state that our modular cities would make that kind of thing a non issue?
1) We definitely do want to prevent Reapers from landing given their habit of converting populations, whether through indoctrination or huskification. In the situation of total war them being forced to destroy rather than convert is helpful to us. Especially if the habitats will be equipped with TIR cloaking, and capable of even very slow FTL - because there's no FTL combat in Mass Effect, slow boating (at 1.001 C or so) a habitat from system to system makes it impossible to attack it.

2) Yes we do need to shield the whole planets, because, especially against Reapers, bioshpere damage is a danger, and if you need to keep a city grade shield on all the time, then you might as well move into a space habitat anyway.

3) With free energy and even a little bit of foresight any and all habitats should be perpetually self-sufficient as far as life support (including food) and maintenance goes.

4) Quarians are the perfect example if we don't talk about modern quarians, but rather quarians from right after the morning war. Which had to try to colonize a high gravity barely livable (for them) rock. Which was already slated for colonization by elcor. Indicating that neither elcor nor quarians could choose from an abundance of freely available worlds. And quarians couldn't easily find another world after being evicted from their first (barely livable) pick.

Also don't forget drell, who have to live with hanar, instead of, for example, colonizing some other planets (with hanar help and under hanar patronship).

5) Cities also tend to die out when industries and trade routes shift. And while personal transport is easy, transplanting industry is not, it seems. Or at least isn't fast.

6) No, Elcor can't live anywhere. Look up effects of low gravity on human bodies. Difference between 3g and 1g is far greater than 1g and 0.3g. I do not envy Elcor ambassador's health, for example, unless they are using artificial gravity.

Quarians require destroamino worlds, which are a rarity it seems, and which they have to compete with turians for. Drell are not populous now, but we are developing immortality. Population growth will happen.

Then there are volus with their exotic environments.

I'm not even talking about microclimate, day-night cycles (and light spectra), gas composition and such, all of which are far from ideal (if survivable) on colony worlds but could be easily made such in space habitats. The quality of life bonuses provided by them by far outweigh benefits of "traditional" colonization.
 
6) No, Elcor can't live anywhere. Look up effects of low gravity on human bodies. Difference between 3g and 1g is far greater than 1g and 0.3g. I do not envy Elcor ambassador's health, for example, unless they are using artificial gravity.
Artificial gravity seems pretty common in ME so odds are Elcor apartments are at 3g.

Question for everyone.
What is everyone views on creating improved versions of tanks and aircraft?
I know that a soldier equipped with powered armor and anti-tank missiles can easily destroy tanks as well as provide air support for at least three hours. But, it seems to me that an upgraded "tank" would be very effective against legionnaires. In the last war game, it was shown that the Tigers were very effective at killing legionnaires.
Odds are the whole tank paradigm is dead at this point. The fundamental assumption behind tanks is that trading speed/mobility for defense is a valid move and with the rise of high power and common anti-armor weapons like Pilum and man portable lasers that just isn't the case. The Tiger works because during the wargame it's primary concern was missiles (specifically Pilum) which it's advanced point defense system was explicitly built to combat. That combined with the high speed and maneuverability of the design made dealing enough damage to actually take it out of the fight hard, especially when it can always just fallback to recharge. Even then I suspect as our heavy weapons start becoming more common even the Tiger will begin to struggle.

Basically we've either hit, or rapidly approaching, a point similar to one warships did during WWII; offense has so completely outstripped defense that armor becomes not just pointless but actively harmful. No one builds armored warships today because you simply can't slap enough armor on one to tank modern day anti-ship missiles and still remain floating.

In addition, can anyone inform me just how effective a Legionnaire would be against a normal aircraft? In my mind, a legionnaire can provide ground support from the air, but a legionnaire stands no chance when attacked by military aircraft. Not to mention, a Legionnaire can only fly for about three hours thus a Legionnaire is actually very limited as a ground support weapon from the air when compared to a dedicated military aircraft that can fly for hours.
Well its worth noting that only the old Legionaries have the three hour limit. All Legionaries, including System Alliance ones, produced from 2174-Q2 onward are now Mark 1.75B which, among other things, includes Repulsors for unlimited flight time. That being said Legionaries vs. Aircraft aren't really going to be a common occurrence.

For starters Legionaries really aren't intended to be used as a replacement for a good CAP. Remember we're not producing dozens or hundreds of the things. Hahne-Kedar is literally selling the Alliance 100,000 suits per quarter. If you are an SA soldier and your not wearing a Legionary you are either aboard a starship, posted somewhere safe like Earth, or really unlucky. The expectation should be that Legionaries are as common for Alliance troops as M4 carbines are today in the US army.

Aside from that a face off between a Legionary and a fighter would be fairly difficult for both since neither is really equipped to handle the other. ME Fighters fly at not simply supersonic but hypersonic speeds while Legionaries are generally, outside of perhaps long distance travel, going to be not simply subsonic but probably only in the one or two hundred kilometer per hour range due to pilot reaction times. Engaging with that kind of speed difference is pretty nightmarish. The older Mark 1.5 Legionaries, which still make up the majority of Alliance but not ParSec forces, with their thrusters should generate enough heat for infrared targeting systems to be effective but the new Mark 1.75B Legionaries have Repulsors and Arc Reactors meaning they should have a tiny thermal signature, especially against the backdrop of a city or active warzone. So the fighters aren't going to be lock on their weapons. Meanwhile the Legionary should be able to lock it's sensors on but given the speeds and ranges involved odds are the pilot, even with mechanical assistance, simply can't move fast enough to score a hit.

So fights between fighters and Legionaries would basically boil down to throwing area effect weapons at each other and hoping for the best. Bombers aren't really worth discussing since I expect dedicated bombers to be very rare since anti-air systems are cheap enough and plentiful enough that slow but large payload bombers are obsolete in favor of boom and zoom bombing raids by fighters.

The real question is Legionaries vs. gunships. It is really hard to say how this fight would go. Canon gunships are capable of being taken out by Shepard but he/she is kinda exceptional.

Basically, my question is whether people think we should create improved versions of fighters and bombers? For air and space combat? As well as creating better versions of the Tiger.
I think aside from the Gladius further improvements to air and space combat will probably wait until we're read to design and build our own carriers. At that point would make sense to design both PI carriers and PI parasite craft simultaneously. We're a fair way away from that but my expectation is that we'd probably see an evolution of the drone swarms we've been using with ParSec. The various improvements we've made, and will make, to laser technology make point defense vastly more effective which in turn makes fighters a hell of a lot more dangerous to pilot. So transitioning over to cheap expendable drones over expensive human piloted fighters makes sense.
 
On one hand, you're right that there's money to be made; on the other hand with Arc Reactors and the best armor, tanks, and ships in the galaxy in our pocket we can print money to scale, constrained almost entirely by our access to factories and production capacity. I'm concerned that actually letting eezo production off the chain is essentially declaring war on the entire basis of the galactic economy, and even PI can't stand against the entire galaxy declaring war on it.
Yet...
 
What is everyone views on creating improved versions of tanks and aircraft?
@UberJJK hit most of the points I wanted to make, but there is, I think, one potential application that it might be worth investing in Medium Armor for: GARDIAN tower assault. At the moment, we don't have an especially effective way to assault a well-built GARDIAN network, other than a massed assault by Hydra missiles backed by drones, both of which will die in droves. An upgraded Tiger tank with plenty of laser-ablative armor, a Liger if you will, would do well in that regard.

Of course, we could also just invest in Miniaturized Energy Weapons and UV Lasers, which would allow our laser-drones to simply out-range any GARDIAN tower and make our Lite Pyndas even more effective at space combat. I think that's my preference, rather than investing in an otherwise dead-end tech for a single application.

Not ever, I hope. PI is a business first; it's in our interest to be seen as a force that acts within the bounds of laws and convention. Go outside of that and you'll find the headwinds start to increase all over; see Google and Facebook's near-constant regulatory headaches as examples of what happens when a company is seen as largely acting outside the public good.
 
Frankly, I'm wondering when our laborforce is going to unionize.


Huh, that is a point.

Though honestly, given how incredibly generous Revy is with money for her people, and how likely it is our workers get a Serious comprehensive health plan, I'm not actually sure why they would Want to unionize. What's there to strike over?
 
Huh, that is a point.

Though honestly, given how incredibly generous Revy is with money for her people, and how likely it is our workers get a Serious comprehensive health plan, I'm not actually sure why they would Want to unionize. What's there to strike over?
People can be greedy bastards and consider themselves to be entitled to more benefits and wealth than even Revy provides.
 
Huh, that is a point.

Though honestly, given how incredibly generous Revy is with money for her people, and how likely it is our workers get a Serious comprehensive health plan, I'm not actually sure why they would Want to unionize. What's there to strike over?
@TheEyes has made some valid arguments that in actuality we might be underpaying our employees a tad, especially our security forces. But Personnel expenses make up a tiny fraction of our budget (76.5 million/qtr vs. 8.4 billion/qtr total expenses) so since we are just starting to hit explosive increases in income we could probably afford to double or even triple everyone's payment package without really noticing the hit.
 
It occurs to me it would be a nasty trick (which we should totally do) to base the limit not on power output of the weapons, but on the size/eezo content of the eezo core. After all, the point of Farixen is to prevent nations ruining themselves in arms races, not to make Citadel races incapable of effectively protecting themselves; the best way to do that would be to limit the number of eezo-expensive ships, rather than limiting the weapon strength.

Of course two quarters after signing the damn thing PI puts out their multi-core eezo drive design and makes the treaty useless again. :V

Also, a total dick move that the council will no be impressed by.
 
Huh, that is a point.

Though honestly, given how incredibly generous Revy is with money for her people, and how likely it is our workers get a Serious comprehensive health plan, I'm not actually sure why they would Want to unionize. What's there to strike over?

Hows the hours? What does workplace safety look like?

Etc, etc.

There are a number of reasons to unionize that don't involve just the wage, that you'd want the power of collective bargaining to deal with.
 
Hows the hours? What does workplace safety look like?

Etc, etc.

There are a number of reasons to unionize that don't involve just the wage, that you'd want the power of collective bargaining to deal with.
We don't actually know much about that (it's been abstracted after all), but since PI's doing so well I imagine we keep those things firmly to Systems Alliance standard. If only because Revy isn't the type to cut corners and our people know doing otherwise would only bring headaches.

The only thing I know for a fact we do that might have people complaining is our security policy for the laboratories, which is pretty thorough and therefore somewhat inconvenient. But after this latest all-out attack by the Batarians I'm pretty sure everyone appreciates why we have that.
 
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I do have one regret for this quest: characterisation seemed to fall by the wayside as the tech and economics ballooned. Shepard pretty much buried herself in work, and the story or characterisation was practically relegated outsourced to any omakes the other posters cared to write.

OK, two regrets - the perpetual arguing over who was right over technical details, that could happen at any time. I wrote an omake (part 1, part 2) gently puncturing this tendency, but no-one stopped.:(
 
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There are a number of reasons to unionize that don't involve just the wage, that you'd want the power of collective bargaining to deal with.
As a proud union member for the last 15 years, I'm of the opinion that we should encourage our workers to unionize. In my experience it takes a lot of pressure off of the employees to have to individually negotiate salaries and benefits. A lot of the horror stories about unions come from circumstances that don't exist in PI, namely profit-driven executives trying to squeeze workers for every last dime so they can buy their second yactht (or, somewhat tragically, when there really isn't enough money to go around).
I do have one regret for this quest: characterisation seemed to fall by the wayside as the tech and economics ballooned. Shepard pretty much buried herself in work, and the story or characterisation was practically relegated to any omakes the other posters cared to write.
Have to agree there. A lot of that stems from the way that, from the beginning, action economy was managed: generally the choice has been between doing some social or political action or getting another Research die, and given all the awesome tech that we all need yesterday is it any surprise that Research die were chosen every time?

Something for the new QM to consider.
OK, two regrets - the perpetual arguing over who was right over technical details, that could happen at any time. I wrote an omake (part 1, part 2) gently puncturing this tendency, but no-one stopped.:(
Bah; the tech arguments are like half the reason I keep coming here! Even at its most heated the debates on this thread are conducted in a genuinely constructive fashion, with everyone involved focused on making Revy, PI, and the Quest, the best it can be. That's such a refreshing change from RL or even many other threads; it's basically this and Practice War that manage it.
 
As a proud union member for the last 15 years, I'm of the opinion that we should encourage our workers to unionize. In my experience it takes a lot of pressure off of the employees to have to individually negotiate salaries and benefits. A lot of the horror stories about unions come from circumstances that don't exist in PI, namely profit-driven executives trying to squeeze workers for every last dime so they can buy their second yactht (or, somewhat tragically, when there really isn't enough money to go around).

I agree. We shouldn't become a closed shop, since that's as much a violation of freedom of association as preventing unionization is. But we should def encourage unionization. Should probably promote a syndicalist union, since those tend to be more responsive to the rank and file, or at least take longer to devolve than parliamentary unions.

We probably won't be going full cooperative, since Revy is just too important and the thread would revolt at losing that much control. But maybe co-determination would be possible.
 
I agree. We shouldn't become a closed shop, since that's as much a violation of freedom of association as preventing unionization is. But we should def encourage unionization. Should probably promote a syndicalist union, since those tend to be more responsive to the rank and file, or at least take longer to devolve than parliamentary unions.

We probably won't be going full cooperative, since Revy is just too important and the thread would revolt at losing that much control. But maybe co-determination would be possible.
Or we could continue to abstract this, because there's other things to do in the quest. I mean don't get me wrong it sounds interesting but does the quest need it when it already has so many other aspects?
 
Bah; the tech arguments are like half the reason I keep coming here! Even at its most heated the debates on this thread are conducted in a genuinely constructive fashion, with everyone involved focused on making Revy, PI, and the Quest, the best it can be. That's such a refreshing change from RL or even many other threads; it's basically this and Practice War that manage it.
Hands up who skipped over the technical arguments and hoped for the next installment of the main story to come out? *raises hand*
 
Hands up who skipped over the technical arguments and hoped for the next installment of the main story to come out? *raises hand*
*actively lowers hand*

While I may have ended up missing one or two I'm fairly sure I participated in almost all the technical discussions, I wouldn't say they ever got heated enough to really call arguments, that have arisen across these threads.

It's certainly not the main draw for me, that was always seeing the power of science and economics reshaping the galaxy instead of facepunching, but it was always fairly enjoyable nonetheless.
 
1) We definitely do want to prevent Reapers from landing given their habit of converting populations, whether through indoctrination or huskification. In the situation of total war them being forced to destroy rather than convert is helpful to us. Especially if the habitats will be equipped with TIR cloaking, and capable of even very slow FTL - because there's no FTL combat in Mass Effect, slow boating (at 1.001 C or so) a habitat from system to system makes it impossible to attack it.

2) Yes we do need to shield the whole planets, because, especially against Reapers, bioshpere damage is a danger, and if you need to keep a city grade shield on all the time, then you might as well move into a space habitat anyway.

3) With free energy and even a little bit of foresight any and all habitats should be perpetually self-sufficient as far as life support (including food) and maintenance goes.

4) Quarians are the perfect example if we don't talk about modern quarians, but rather quarians from right after the morning war. Which had to try to colonize a high gravity barely livable (for them) rock. Which was already slated for colonization by elcor. Indicating that neither elcor nor quarians could choose from an abundance of freely available worlds. And quarians couldn't easily find another world after being evicted from their first (barely livable) pick.

Also don't forget drell, who have to live with hanar, instead of, for example, colonizing some other planets (with hanar help and under hanar patronship).

5) Cities also tend to die out when industries and trade routes shift. And while personal transport is easy, transplanting industry is not, it seems. Or at least isn't fast.

6) No, Elcor can't live anywhere. Look up effects of low gravity on human bodies. Difference between 3g and 1g is far greater than 1g and 0.3g. I do not envy Elcor ambassador's health, for example, unless they are using artificial gravity.

1) It's not really prefferable to have the Reapers just destroy our human populations since that means that they would stop holding back and make things far more difiicult. The main reason the Citadel races were doing as well as they did was because the Reapers weren't trying to just destroy them all since they wanted to catch a significant number of them alive to use to create new Reapers for the harvest. Them having to work to invade cities and take people on planets actually slows them down enough to make things easier for everyone else or else they'd just blitz through by destroying everything that was too hard to take just to capture some people. Indocrination doesn't seem like it would be that bad considering that most people in colonies likely don't know anything that important and we could probably make tech to detect it. Husks are likely probably just going to be an annoyance with our tech advances while we may also be able to come up with anti-huskification tech by way of giving people nanibites like the ones Iron Man used in infinity wars so likely even less of an issue.

2) Again, the Reapers aren't actually interested in causing as much casualties as possible and seem to avoid things that can do long term harm to a planets biosphere and once again most everyone in setting tends to avoid doing that kind of thing. Keeping the shield on isn't even an issue due to free power.

3) You seem to be underestating just what kind of damage a space station could receive and seem to just be calculation the low end of the potential damage. If the damage gets bad enough and during a time of war where the resources that would go into repairing the damage would be better spent elsewhere the governments may just decide to move people to planets than waste resources on fixing space stations

4) Wasn't one of the main complaints from fans in this forum in regards to the Quarians is that they realy should have been able to find a planet. Seriously, we've seen Shepard and his qrew easily survive on Rannoch so that excuse is bullshit. Especially considering that Tali implied that the main reason they don't try as hard to find new planets when they had hundreds of years is becaused a lot of them don't want to wait long for their peoples immune systems to adapt since it would take generations and many keep pushing to try to retake their homeworld instead. The Quarians have been noted by fans to have seriously made some dumb decisions

Also Thane a Drell outright states that even though they could find a planet that is more suited to their people many of them willingly choose to live on the Hanar world out of sheer gratitude. Again, considerin their low population it would take hundreds or even thousands of years to potentially bring a planet to full capacity for them.

5) Intergalactic travel and industry seems like it makes it less of an issue. It also seems like less of an issue since races with space travel have their entire system to gain resources from instead of just a single planet there.

Pretty sure we see Elcor outside of the Citadel in several other places. It should also be noted like Uber pointed out that they may have artificial gravity which may allow them to spend time at those levels just enough to avoid health issues.

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Quarians require destroamino worlds, which are a rarity it seems, and which they have to compete with turians for. Drell are not populous now, but we are developing immortality. Population growth will happen.

Then there are volus with their exotic environments.

I'm not even talking about microclimate, day-night cycles (and light spectra), gas composition and such, all of which are far from ideal (if survivable) on colony worlds but could be easily made such in space habitats. The quality of life bonuses provided by them by far outweigh benefits of "traditional" colonization.

The destroamino thing isn't really much an issue anymore thanks to our terraforming package IIRC we can also cure the sydrome for the Drell with a project which should expand their choices signigicantly. Finally I just said that habits are useful for a select people but not really necessary for most with most everyone perfect able to live a high quality of life on a traditional colony world.
 
It's certainly not the main draw for me, that was always seeing the power of science and economics reshaping the galaxy instead of facepunching, but it was always fairly enjoyable nonetheless.
In regard to face punching, just how effective would melee weapons purposely designed for power armored soldiers be on the battlefield?

I think there is no question that even power armored soldiers like legionnaires would eventually find themselves in a situation where they would be forced to engage in melee combat. Thus, the question is whether the probability of melee combat between powered armored opponents is significant enough to justify the development of special melee weapons like chainsaw katanas and powered swords? Also, would legionnaires equipped with powered melee weapons have a unique advantage on the battlefield?

I am not a science-minded person, but I think that special melee weapons, like 40k powered weapons, would be great as they would not activate a powered armor's shield What is everyone else opinion? Are special anti-powered armor melee weapons not only possible but also necessary? I am very curious.
 
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In regard to face punching, just how effective would melee weapons purposely designed for power armored soldiers be on the battlefield?

I think there is no question that even power armored soldiers like legionnaires would eventually find themselves in a situation where they would be forced to engage in melee combat. Thus, the question is whether the probability of melee combat between powered armored opponents is significant enough to justify the development of special melee weapons like chainsaw katanas and powered swords? Also, would legionnaires equipped with powered melee weapons have a unique advantage on the battlefield?

I am not a science-minded person, but I think that special melee weapons, like 40k powered weapons, would be great as they would not activate a powered armor's shield What is everyone else opinion? Are special anti-powered armor melee weapons not only possible but also necessary? I am very curious.
Seems lightsaber are already a thing. Prothean warp blades, remember? Good enough for them so good sidearm. Plus omni-blades are a thing.
 
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