Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution

In most situations, gunships seem more useful than tanks. There might be a place for assault guns or SPGs, I suppose... but SPGs are indirect fire weapons, which seems to be a somewhat obsolete concept (apparently), and the ME universe does seem to include man-portable weapons capable of doing an assault gun's job. Gunships do the tank destroyer job well enough when infantry's not good enough, so there's no need for a dedicated TD to deal with things like the Tiger...

And i can't help but think an actual ship would be better in all respects than "mobile" ground based anti-orbital weapons.

I can't actually think of a good reason to build tanks, to be honest. They don't even have a stupidly specific nich to fill like small mechs do. Pretty much anything they do can be done better by gunships or infantry, which are also able to do Other things. (and if you really need a tank for some reason, the Tiger with the right main gun does a pretty decent job of that role already, despite being technically an APC. ... and functionally a shuttle...)

With repulsors, I don't think there's actually much difference between tanks and gunships. Other than maybe a connotation that gunships are more mobile and tanks are more heavily armored/shielded - although if that's the case, why not a tanky gunship?
 
The same thing that happened to the dinosaurs.
Nope. Big slow meteor striking at km/sec. Lots of energy transfer.
Take a grain of sand, accelerate to 0.9999999c, small hole, perhaps exit on other side of planet.
You need the energy transfer or not (too) much is happening.
With mass effect accelerators a lot of range between 'small hole' and 'that looked like a nuke' could be possible, that's why I asked.

With repulsors, I don't think there's actually much difference between tanks and gunships. Other than maybe a connotation that gunships are more mobile and tanks are more heavily armored/shielded - although if that's the case, why not a tanky gunship?
Role and cost. Don't see another reason at the moment.
 
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Nope. Big slow meteor striking at km/sec. Lots of energy transfer.
Take a grain of sand, accelerate to 0.9999999c, small hole, perhaps exit on other side of planet.
You need the energy transfer or not (too) much is happening.
With mass effect accelerators a lot of range between 'small hole' and 'that looked like a nuke' could be possible, that's why I asked.

A grain of sand is what the small arm weapons shoot, and they do not go through the planet. We are using 200m Mass Accelerators, to be upgraded into 500m equilavent.

No one use a grain of sand for spaceship weapons. They are, as you've pointed out, worthless.
 
A grain of sand is what the small arm weapons shoot, and they do not go through the planet. We are using 200m Mass Accelerators, to be upgraded into 500m equilavent.

No one use a grain of sand for spaceship weapons. They are, as you've pointed out, worthless.
Grain of sand was to illustrate that there is a scale you can use, dependent on mass and velocity. I'm just not sure how to quantify the effects. And I'd like to be able to do so to get an answer to the question if a kinetic strike can take out a hardened target without too much collateral damage.
 
Grain of sand was to illustrate that there is a scale you can use, dependent on mass and velocity. I'm just not sure how to quantify the effects. And I'd like to be able to do so to get an answer to the question if a kinetic strike can take out a hardened target without too much collateral damage.

Theoratically, yes. But the area is a huge issuse. You need very, very fine calculations. A grain of sand will probably penetrate without doing much damage, but something like a football may cause seismic events.

Speaking of seismic events, you need to take the planetary crust into equations, thickness, consistution, structures, and all that. There's not much incentive for planets to have the same geological make up, so each one is basically unique.

Given the infinity of the universe, one planet may take a Reaper launched into it at several time the speed of light and just shrug the impact off like nothing, another may start having massive earthquakes if a fly so much as step too hard.

Oh, and you may need to take atmospheric density and meteological events into considerations, and planetary shields, and bombarment counter measures, all while the enemy fleet is pounding at you.

If you want a cheap and simple solution, just use radiation bombardment. Radiological weapons are legal as far as I remember. Just bombard the fortified locations with enough gamma ray thay everyone inside melt into an orgnanic slurry.
 
Theoratically, yes. But the area is a huge issuse. You need very, very fine calculations. A grain of sand will probably penetrate without doing much damage, but something like a football may cause seismic events.

Speaking of seismic events, you need to take the planetary crust into equations, thickness, consistution, structures, and all that. There's not much incentive for planets to have the same geological make up, so each one is basically unique.

Given the infinity of the universe, one planet may take a Reaper launched into it at several time the speed of light and just shrug the impact off like nothing, another may start having massive earthquakes if a fly so much as step too hard.

Oh, and you may need to take atmospheric density and meteological events into considerations, and planetary shields, and bombarment counter measures, all while the enemy fleet is pounding at you.

If you want a cheap and simple solution, just use radiation bombardment. Radiological weapons are legal as far as I remember. Just bombard the fortified locations with enough gamma ray thay everyone inside melt into an orgnanic slurry.
Misunderstanding. I was talking about using orbit-based kinetic weapons for tactical combat (like killing tanks). More in the vicinity of 1kg rounds with a speed of a few dozen km/s. To take out tanks, for example. In this scenario you started planetary assault after you took care of the fleet. Or split your fleet - that one destroyer won't make a difference in the naval battle.
And the precision part? The same orbital assault weapons manage to hit ships in flight.
Killing ecospheres is simple the moment you manage to accelerate a few thousand tons (of ship) to fractions of c.
 
Note that our tech are vastly superior to current tanks. The new lines of armors can tank our missles just fine and dandy. At the end of the day, when you compare a tank and a PA, both on equal tech level, a tank bring much, much, more firepower to the fray.
Now where did you go and get a silly idea like that from? No one, outside of ParSec and the Alliance, has anything that can handle our Pilums. Even then the only reason the Tiger did so well was the Anti-Missile System shooting down the majority of missiles before they impacted and that very same quarter we upgraded our Pilums to include shield and the ability to dodge which heavily reduces the effectiveness of Anti-Missile Systems

Incidentally on the whole Power Armor Vs Tank thing:
You have taken the opportunity to personally observe the war games. In reviewing the data you can see a definite statistical advantage in favor of you troops. Which makes sense, your troops have better skill on the average as well as better commanders. Oh and your Power Armor is better can't forget that. That said both sides suffer from a lack of experience fighting equivalently equipped units. Often soldier's resort to the use of weapons formerly meant for use against tanks to take down Legionaries as if they don't the legionary will retreat and regenerate its barriers. Laser equipped Tigers cheerfully slay Legionaries and can tank incredible levels of firepower, at least until they meet another of their number.


Of course your point about how with equal tech backing a Tank beats out Power Armor in raw power is completely true. You simply can't mount the same level of firepower on one that you can on the other. But with energy weapons, and especially Miniaturized Energy Weapons which we'll be getting soon, that isn't really much of a concern.


IIRC the last time this topic came up Hoyr basically said the main/only advantage of a tank over the Tiger is that since it doesn't need to transport people, the main role of the Tiger, it can have super thick armor, while retaining the same form factor, instead. This helps protect it against the number one killer on the battlefield of tomorrow; lasers. Lasers flat out ignore Kinetic Barriers but can have a hard time penetrating the 13 inches, again IIRC, of armor a MBT would have.
 
But didn't we have meta-materials that can outright no-sell lasers?

And if we don't want to give stealth to everything there is no reason we couldn't create dedicated anti-laser armor or armor-coating.
 
Misunderstanding. I was talking about using orbit-based kinetic weapons for tactical combat (like killing tanks). More in the vicinity of 1kg rounds with a speed of a few dozen km/s. To take out tanks, for example. In this scenario you started planetary assault after you took care of the fleet. Or split your fleet - that one destroyer won't make a difference in the naval battle.
And the precision part? The same orbital assault weapons manage to hit ships in flight.
Killing ecospheres is simple the moment you manage to accelerate a few thousand tons (of ship) to fractions of c.
Consider the speed of most tanks, especially with the introductions of repulsor technology and the fact that a 1 degree adjustment in the angle of your weapons will lead to mile difference in the impact zone. There's the problem that everything is constantly moving in space, so you have to adjust for that too. Not really feasible to juggle all the variable until you instal fire-control AI on your ship. At the moment, you really can't snipe a tank from orbit. You can snipe that tank general location, sure.

One desytoyer less is still one destroyer less. Consider the fact that we live in a world a nation's armed force loss a war against its native fauna, I say one destroyer less can make all the different in the world.

There's the entire problem with getting the right gun for the job. Any gun that's suited for ortillery duty is basically a peashooter in a proper space engagement. You need to outfit entire ships for bombardment duty if you want that to be your strategy. That's mean they are deadweight in space, and unlike transport, they don't get the option to bumrush the atmosphere.


Now where did you go and get a silly idea like that from? No one, outside of ParSec and the Alliance, has anything that can handle our Pilums. Even then the only reason the Tiger did so well was the Anti-Missile System shooting down the majority of missiles before they impacted and that very same quarter we upgraded our Pilums to include shield and the ability to dodge which heavily reduces the effectiveness of Anti-Missile Systems

Well, we are selling the Tigers, right? It's only prudent to assume that at some point in the future, someone may use that against us. Beside, even if our tech got flawless blackbox, that doesn't mean we're immune to someone knocking down the wall of our labs and nab the database. Granted, it's not likely, but still in the realm of possibility.

Of course your point about how with equal tech backing a Tank beats out Power Armor in raw power is completely true. You simply can't mount the same level of firepower on one that you can on the other. But with energy weapons, and especially Miniaturized Energy Weapons which we'll be getting soon, that isn't really much of a concern.


IIRC the last time this topic came up Hoyr basically said the main/only advantage of a tank over the Tiger is that since it doesn't need to transport people, the main role of the Tiger, it can have super thick armor, while retaining the same form factor, instead. This helps protect it against the number one killer on the battlefield of tomorrow; lasers. Lasers flat out ignore Kinetic Barriers but can have a hard time penetrating the 13 inches, again IIRC, of armor a MBT would have.

Yeah, but a tank can still mount more Miniturized Laser than a PA. If we do invent Forcefield, a tank's forcefield will be tougher than a PA's and they can provide better cover for civilians and non-PA troops if the need arise. PA can too, but their bulk and sophistication general make them ill-suited as meatshields

I mean, we built an IFV that can can stand up to MBT, imagine what we can do with actual battle tanks?
 
Well, we are selling the Tigers, right? It's only prudent to assume that at some point in the future, someone may use that against us.
Yes the possibility exists that someone may steal some Tigers and use them in the future. Fortunately that's a problem that is almost certainly years away and by then the Tiger will be obsolete.

Beside, even if our tech got flawless blackbox, that doesn't mean we're immune to someone knocking down the wall of our labs and nab the database. Granted, it's not likely, but still in the realm of possibility.
...people have already tried this. Twice. It didn't work out either time. There is a reason we have (most) of a fleet overhead and an army's worth of ground based defenses.

Nah the real risk is infiltrators getting past our HR screening. As what happened with Mordin, although we (OOC) allowed that to get through.

Yeah, but a tank can still mount more Miniturized Laser than a PA.
That creates an over concentration of force. If you're building two laser weapons you, ideally, want them on two different systems due to the increased versatility.

Basically it's better to have ten Legionaries, or drones, with one laser each then one tank with ten lasers because while both options can concentrate their fire the former can split their fire far more.

If we do invent Forcefield, a tank's forcefield will be tougher than a PA's and they can provide better cover for civilians and non-PA troops if the need arise. PA can too, but their bulk and sophistication general make them ill-suited as meatshields
I point you towards the Kasa Guardian Angel system:
Kassa Unveils New Guardian Angel System for Arc-Reactor Powered Armor
Paragon Industries' Legionary Powered Armor has an impressive power budget and Kassa Fabrication's new Guardian Angel System put that to even better use. Each pair of units is a high-powered shield generator that interfaces with the existing shield system. Not only does each pair add one and half time the base Legionaries' shielding ability, but the system allows for these shields to be projected. Thus the soldier equipped with the system can protect injured comrades, critical targets, or civilians. In addition it turns the soldier into mobile terrain allowing them to block choke points and prevent passage.

Each unit plugs into one of the legionaries' shoulder mount slots allowing for flexible battlefield reconfiguration.
As you can see in the section I underlined there is no need for physical meat shields to stand in the way.

Plus I suspect you can probably get similar shield strength but having multiple Legionaries project their shields in an overlapping manner.

I mean, we built an IFV that can can stand up to MBT, imagine what we can do with actual battle tanks?
I'm sure we could build an amazing MBT. The question is if the MBT still has a role on the battlefield of tomorrow. I'm not entirely convinced it does.

But didn't we have meta-materials that can outright no-sell lasers?
I don't believe so. We do have Arcane Blur which reduces the effect of lasers by increasing how much they scatter but I don't think we have anything that can, outside TIR which IIRC has serious issues inside an atmosphere, straight out no-sell lasers.
 
I don't believe so. We do have Arcane Blur which reduces the effect of lasers by increasing how much they scatter but I don't think we have anything that can, outside TIR which IIRC has serious issues inside an atmosphere, straight out no-sell lasers.
If you combine that with aerosol grenades?
 
If you combine that with aerosol grenades?
Looking back over the details it turns out I was wrong. Arcane Blur doesn't scatter the laser. Instead it absorbs and distributes it somewhat, as a side effect of it's anti-RADAR and anti-LIDAR abilities, so the effecting target area is larger then it actually is:
Its worth noting that the arcane blur armor merely reduces the effectiveness of lasers, distributing what used to be a high precision energy strike over a larger area. Weaponized lasers just drop to much energy for the armor to handle well even then. You'd want to use the stuff in stacks of it and anti-laser ablative (which is the outer material will depend on various factors). Or make it part of a more complicated composite.
 
Yes the possibility exists that someone may steal some Tigers and use them in the future. Fortunately that's a problem that is almost certainly years away and by then the Tiger will be obsolete.
How certain can we be of this? We are shipping Tigers out to SA military, can you say for absolute certain that something like, say, an insurgence won't happen?

That creates an over concentration of force. If you're building two laser weapons you, ideally, want them on two different systems due to the increased versatility.

Basically it's better to have ten Legionaries, or drones, with one laser each then one tank with ten lasers because while both options can concentrate their fire the former can split their fire far more.
Sometime, concentration is a good thing. Mostly logistic concerns. It's easier to maintain and transport one MBT than 10 Legionaires.

I point you towards the Kasa Guardian Angel system:
As you can see in the section I underlined there is no need for physical meat shields to stand in the way.

Plus I suspect you can probably get similar shield strength but having multiple Legionaries project their shields in an overlapping manner.
That would be all fine and good if there's no miniturized laser cropping up that completely ignore kinetic shields. Beside, PA offer strong shield, a MBT would offer both strong shield and a big meaty block between the VIP and whatever is shooting at them.

I'm sure we could build an amazing MBT. The question is if the MBT still has a role on the battlefield of tomorrow. I'm not entirely convinced it does.
The battlefield of tomorrow is pretty much what Paragon Industry says it is. But I'm not really convinced on conventional battle tank either. What I've been advocating is a mobile base that can immediately provide medical relief and rest for personnel, scavenge and scrap all nearby material to roll out new equipments to replace lost and damaged ones, as well as setting the stage for our own Reaper Destroyer. With something like that on the field, we can greatly reduce attriction and strike deep into enemy forces without worrying about supply lines.

I don't know why I got caught up in the tank argument.
 
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The battlefield of tomorrow is pretty much what Paragon Industry says it is. But I'm not really convinced on conventional battle tank either. What I've been advocating is a mobile base that can immediately provide medical relief and rest for personnel, scavenge and scrap all nearby material to roll out new equipments to replace lost and damaged ones, as well as setting the stage for our own Reaper Destroyer. With something like that on the field, we can greatly reduce attriction and strike deep into enemy forces without worrying about supply lines.

I don't know why I got caught up in the tank argument.
That base will be one prime target.
tank argument - lots of posts about WW2 and W40K tanks ...
 
That base will be one prime target.
tank argument - lots of posts about WW2 and W40K tanks ...
Well, the more effort dedicated to pounding the base, the less goes toward shooting at the ground force or our navy. Considering that it would probably be fitted with an industrial scale Arc Reator and planetary shields, it's gonna take them a long, long time to crack the shield.

Meawhile, the base is shooting back at the orbit ships using ground-to-space accelerators while laying down insane suppressing fire on the enemy ground force while ours harry and crush them. The base can be as big a target as it want, trying to focus it down is like trying to disarm a mugger by punching his knife...on the blade. While his friend pounds you from all directions.
 
How certain can we be of this? We are shipping Tigers out to SA military, can you say for absolute certain that something like, say, an insurgence won't happen?
Um. Please clarify? If you're asking about the possibility of the Alliance military trying to perform a coup well I find that incredibly unlikely and even if they did they'd win by default simply due to controlling space and all the really powerful space based weapons.

Speaking more realistically; how often do you hear about M1 Abrams, or at least US controlled ones, going missing? IFVs are big and not exactly subtle so disappearing dozens isn't going to be a fast or subtle act. At least not for the near future.

Sometime, concentration is a good thing. Mostly logistic concerns. It's easier to maintain and transport one MBT than 10 Legionaires.
Eh. With the number of Legionaries being outputted odds are basically every frontline soldier in the Alliance has one. So it's really not a logistical concern. Plus phasing out MBTs would reduce logistical stress by reducing the number of different things that need maintaining.

Oh and if MBTs are anywhere near the price of a Tiger, which they'd almost certainly be in excess of, then you're looking at about forty Legionaries costing the same to maintain as a single MBT.

That would be all fine and good if there's no miniturized laser cropping up that completely ignore kinetic shields. Beside, PA offer strong shield, a MBT would offer both strong shield and a big meaty block between the VIP and whatever is shooting at them.
This presumes a rapid proliferation of laser technology to hostile forces. This isn't Marvel that sort of thing takes time.

I'd also point out that protecting soft infantry and such on the battlefield is literally the entire job of an IFV.

What I've been advocating is a mobile base that can immediately provide medical relief and rest for personnel, scavenge and scrap all nearby material to roll out new equipments to replace lost and damaged ones, as well as setting the stage for our own Reaper Destroyer.
I'm not sure such a thing is possible. While spaceships and ground vessels certainly have differing limitations that may change this answer we know that a Lab I requires a Heavy Cruiser in excess of 500 meters. Our most basic factory, Factory I, is about the same size as a Lab I so we're talking about something over three times the size of a Reaper Destroyer here.

What's more a Factory I only produces 3 production per day. That's enough for only a single Legionary per day.
 
I'm not sure such a thing is possible. While spaceships and ground vessels certainly have differing limitations that may change this answer we know that a Lab I requires a Heavy Cruiser in excess of 500 meters. Our most basic factory, Factory I, is about the same size as a Lab I so we're talking about something over three times the size of a Reaper Destroyer here.

What's more a Factory I only produces 3 production per day. That's enough for only a single Legionary per day.
Not that I'm sold on the idea, but a LEGO-platform with repulsors as base for the other stuff could work; the insane shield and the Eezo requirements ...
 
Um. Please clarify? If you're asking about the possibility of the Alliance military trying to perform a coup well I find that incredibly unlikely and even if they did they'd win by default simply due to controlling space and all the really powerful space based weapons.

Speaking more realistically; how often do you hear about M1 Abrams, or at least US controlled ones, going missing? IFVs are big and not exactly subtle so disappearing dozens isn't going to be a fast or subtle act. At least not for the near future.
No, I mean an internal coup, a rouge faction trying to take control. Something like Cerebus.

Eh. With the number of Legionaries being outputted odds are basically every frontline soldier in the Alliance has one. So it's really not a logistical concern. Plus phasing out MBTs would reduce logistical stress by reducing the number of different things that need maintaining.

Oh and if MBTs are anywhere near the price of a Tiger, which they'd almost certainly be in excess of, then you're looking at about forty Legionaries costing the same to maintain as a single MBT.

This presumes a rapid proliferation of laser technology to hostile forces. This isn't Marvel that sort of thing takes time.

I'd also point out that protecting soft infantry and such on the battlefield is literally the entire job of an IFV.
Yeah, I concede. I don't even know why I was on the tank case anyway. I've already stated that's not my stand.

I'm not sure such a thing is possible. While spaceships and ground vessels certainly have differing limitations that may change this answer we know that a Lab I requires a Heavy Cruiser in excess of 500 meters. Our most basic factory, Factory I, is about the same size as a Lab I so we're talking about something over three times the size of a Reaper Destroyer here.

What's more a Factory I only produces 3 production per day. That's enough for only a single Legionary per day.
Well, it's not something for literally cranking out out new equipments, not with our current tech base, although I'm sure we have some good miniturization down the line, perhaps even industrial nanobots.

It's currently more for repairing and refitting damaged equipments recovered from the field, as well as providing immdediate medical care for our soldiers and some bed rest to keep up morale.
 
Well, it's not something for literally cranking out out new equipments, not with our current tech base, although I'm sure we have some good miniturization down the line, perhaps even industrial nanobots.

It's currently more for repairing and refitting damaged equipments recovered from the field, as well as providing immdediate medical care for our soldiers and some bed rest to keep up morale.
... and produce special ammunitions?
 
I guess fitting a ammo plant on it won't be too hard, although was leaning toward outfitting it for medical care mostly
You will want your medical care base to be a low priority target, not something that stops the attacker from conquering the planet. Because the thing that does so will get a lot of attention in form of heavy bombardment (which is bad for anyone trying to enter the base).
 
I don't believe so. We do have Arcane Blur which reduces the effect of lasers by increasing how much they scatter but I don't think we have anything that can, outside TIR which IIRC has serious issues inside an atmosphere, straight out no-sell lasers.
Well, that Reaper mech had anti-laser armor (it would have never reached us if it didn't), but from what @Hoyr already told us we know that thins is stupidly, ludicrously expensive: it had eezo impregnated directly into the armor. Can't find the quote right now, but from what I remember it was a "well if you want it you can get it with your current materials tech, but you kind of don't want to because it's not economically feasible" type of tech.

As to TIR, I was the one suggesting that TIR can't be used in atmosphere, and I think @Yog and @Hoyr disagreed. Don't remember what became of that conversation either.

No, I mean an internal coup, a rouge faction trying to take control. Something like Cerebus.
So you're thinking that one terrestial Earth nation will try to conquer another? Hm. Well, I'd like to say it's very unlikely given that everyone right now is afraid of all the aliens who keep invading, but it is theoretically possible I suppose, but not right now; right now all of PI's tech is going to be watched and tracked far too closely, both by the Alliance Military and the individual member nations, as it's being appropriated and transported around for the Batarian war effort.
 
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