Dark Ness
Rises Where Silence Dies
- Location
- The Primordial Soup
Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution
- Thread starter Hoyr
- Start date
I tried my hand at making a format, although I'm mostly building off UberJJK's ideas here. My philosophy is to keep everything as close as possible to how the quest is already being run, while restructuring it to encourage vote participation. What we have now is a lot of quest participation, but people usually post suggestions instead of voting. I, personally, have no idea how to construct a vote. The reason for this is because there's too much to think about at once. Also, there are some parts of the quests I enjoy more than other parts. For example, I don't particularly care about ParSec, but currently I'd need to include them if I'm to write up a vote that others can agree with.
With that in mind, I've proposed the following format:
Update X.0: Quarter Start
Adding UberJJK's explanation here, since I agree with it.
A suggestion I would add is to include a list of which characters (research heroes, security team, etc.) are available. I'm proposing this as a part of a Character Action System. The idea is, if the players say: "Wait! We should check with such-and-such first to see if this is a good idea", then we can choose a person to interact with from this list of characters. That character is then potentially used up, so you can't ask them again.
Update X.0.X: Quarter Start Results
These are a series of result updates; the number of updates in the series would be however many are necessary to resolve everything. It's a series because sometimes I see choices result in more choices, like when choosing to reply to Mordin's email resulted in an option to hire him.
BIG NOTE: It's the Quarter Start Result series, but the resolving and secondary voting might turn up issues that belong in other update sections. It's fine whether these all issues are resolved immediately, resolved in their proper updates, or some are resolved immediately while some are deferred. Go with whatever seems natural. As a player, I wouldn't be confused either way.
Update X.1: Production/Construction
Production is fine, but I personally would like to be reminded what our current commitments with the Alliance Navy etc. are, so I know approximately how much of our production capability is tied up in contracts.
Update X.1.X: Production/Construction Results
Again, This is potentially series of result posts.
Update X.2: Research
Keeping the current research system as it is seems fine to me. I enjoy watching the micromanaging. And the hilarity when research juuuust fails to finish is always great.
If it turns out either Update X.1 or X.2 don't have much content, then they could be combined into one.
Update X.2.X: Research Results
Update X.3: Remaining Unused Actions.
Here, players propose what all the other non-production/research departments should be doing this turn. This includes hiring, marketing, security, ParSec squads, asking for favours, etc. However, this should only be in-company stuff, where we are giving the orders instead of reacting to outside news. If the council is requesting us to entertain a spectre, or if Liara wants to use our labs, then that should be in Update X.0. Here in Update X.3, we ask the council to send a spectre, or ask Liara to send interesting information to her colleagues.
If X.0 is the update where we React, X.3 is the update where we Proact (if that's a word), and players are the ones who suggest options instead of the GM.
Even if the Character Action System I proposed is not used, I suggest some way to make it clear how many and what type of actions we are allowed. Important: I'm more encouraged to vote if I'm given some framework for what I'm allowed to do. This is why the CK2 system works so well.
Update X.3: Remaining Unused Actions Results.
Update X.4: Personal Actions + Events
Self Explanatory. However, this could be subsumed into one of the other updates, like X.3.
Update X.4.X: Personal Actions + Events Results.
With that in mind, I've proposed the following format:
Update X.0: Quarter Start
Adding UberJJK's explanation here, since I agree with it.
In summary, I would say that the big, strategy-changing decisions should be voted on in this post, as well as the news, offers for new contracts, opportunities, etc.
A suggestion I would add is to include a list of which characters (research heroes, security team, etc.) are available. I'm proposing this as a part of a Character Action System. The idea is, if the players say: "Wait! We should check with such-and-such first to see if this is a good idea", then we can choose a person to interact with from this list of characters. That character is then potentially used up, so you can't ask them again.
Update X.0.X: Quarter Start Results
These are a series of result updates; the number of updates in the series would be however many are necessary to resolve everything. It's a series because sometimes I see choices result in more choices, like when choosing to reply to Mordin's email resulted in an option to hire him.
BIG NOTE: It's the Quarter Start Result series, but the resolving and secondary voting might turn up issues that belong in other update sections. It's fine whether these all issues are resolved immediately, resolved in their proper updates, or some are resolved immediately while some are deferred. Go with whatever seems natural. As a player, I wouldn't be confused either way.
Update X.1: Production/Construction
Production is fine, but I personally would like to be reminded what our current commitments with the Alliance Navy etc. are, so I know approximately how much of our production capability is tied up in contracts.
Update X.1.X: Production/Construction Results
Again, This is potentially series of result posts.
Update X.2: Research
Keeping the current research system as it is seems fine to me. I enjoy watching the micromanaging. And the hilarity when research juuuust fails to finish is always great.
If it turns out either Update X.1 or X.2 don't have much content, then they could be combined into one.
Update X.2.X: Research Results
Update X.3: Remaining Unused Actions.
Here, players propose what all the other non-production/research departments should be doing this turn. This includes hiring, marketing, security, ParSec squads, asking for favours, etc. However, this should only be in-company stuff, where we are giving the orders instead of reacting to outside news. If the council is requesting us to entertain a spectre, or if Liara wants to use our labs, then that should be in Update X.0. Here in Update X.3, we ask the council to send a spectre, or ask Liara to send interesting information to her colleagues.
If X.0 is the update where we React, X.3 is the update where we Proact (if that's a word), and players are the ones who suggest options instead of the GM.
Even if the Character Action System I proposed is not used, I suggest some way to make it clear how many and what type of actions we are allowed. Important: I'm more encouraged to vote if I'm given some framework for what I'm allowed to do. This is why the CK2 system works so well.
Update X.3: Remaining Unused Actions Results.
Update X.4: Personal Actions + Events
Self Explanatory. However, this could be subsumed into one of the other updates, like X.3.
Update X.4.X: Personal Actions + Events Results.
Last edited:
- Location
- United States
I think you mean X.3.X, Otherwise I think that your pattern is a little better than the other one because it is a little more condensed while still being compartmentalized. I like it.
Quick thoughts:
Hmm... that's an option. No limit on actions per section?
The timing of events bugs me a little, but meh.
Personal actions maybe kinda small on its own... can some of these be folded together? Maybe personal action + special events?
Still takes 3 months, not much to say until its done...
That happens a lot... I need to set up a proper log of delayed actions/events.
....And I realized this after I already took the servey.
You are free to go back and change your votes, I checked that option. As well as vote for multiple things per question.
On that subject, someone found the second question unclear, currently the quest uses Shadowrun 4th ed for events, the question is asking if that should change, mostly if we do use all out CKII for the business side.
I would also like to thank whoever took the effort to inform me in every question that the like planes, thank you for that feedback I will endeavor to include more 2-d objects.
- Location
- Leeds
I do belive that was me. I'm not sure what I was thinking but I think the fact that it was phrased in a way that made me think it was Revy specific.
- Location
- United States
@hyor regarding the limits, i think most of the plans are there to give you a basis to work with and define exactly how you want. We are here to give you ideas, not dictate how you run your quest. If you think that we should have a limit on actions, set that for us.
Who is hyor?
I'm mostly seeing If I understand the idea in full. I was planning to go with an action economy system... but if some one can point out a superior solution or thinks that that really isn't the core of the problem I'm up for listening.
- Location
- United States
Derp. I think the action economy is a good plan. It will make things a lot more simple from what i can see though do keep in mind i am a newcomer.
For the parts of the quest that are already limited by an existing resource in the current system, like number of dice for research or factories for production, there's no real need for an action system. For stuff like marketing or even ParSec, you could use a major-minor-trivial action system, and designate a number of actions available for each team in Paragon Industries. For example, having ParSec deploy on a new planet would be a major action, while having the salespeople check out the competition on one of our products might be a minor action. It's not necessary to go the full CK2 experience with a bunch of suggested actions in each of several categories. Just have the players decide on actions like we currently do, and then tell us if we used too many.
Also, I wouldn't worry about which stat system is being used. A casual player like me understands that a person with +2 in some category means they are a little better than a person with +1. That's good enough for me.
Also, I wouldn't worry about which stat system is being used. A casual player like me understands that a person with +2 in some category means they are a little better than a person with +1. That's good enough for me.
Well I wasn't going to change the research system unless people asked. Actions don't matter there. Production doesn't feel terribly limited by factories. So, I could limit the number of orders not individual items.
So an order might be:
[ ] Base Plan Dreadnought Flotilla (46.42 Trillion Credits, 169.424 Million Production)
Warships, because Reapers
1 Memento Mori Class Dreadnought: Dragon (43.56 Trillion Credits, 159.36 Million Production)
4 Celeres Class Frigates: Bob, Jeb, Bill, Val (2.86 Trillion Credits, 10.064 Million Production)
4 Celeres Class Frigates: Bob, Jeb, Bill, Val (2.86 Trillion Credits, 10.064 Million Production)
Or
[ ] Base Plan Dreadnought Fleet (464.2 Trillion Credits, 1694.24 Million Production)
More Warships, because OMFG, why are there so many Reapers!?
10 Memento Mori Class Dreadnoughts: Dragon, [name2], [name3], [name4], [name5], [name6], [name7], [name8], [name9], [name10] (435.6 Trillion Credits, 1593.6 Million Production)
40 Celeres Class Frigates: Bob, Jeb, Bill, Val, [name5], ... [name40] (28.6 Trillion Credits, 100.64 Million Production)
40 Celeres Class Frigates: Bob, Jeb, Bill, Val, [name5], ... [name40] (28.6 Trillion Credits, 100.64 Million Production)
Names are just their for funses, not needed. But both would be valid.
[ ] Base Plan Random Stuff (133.7 Million Credits, 3,141.59 Production)
All the things we need right now
25 Cases of anti-matter bombs (100 Million Credits, 3125 Production)
1 Masterwork Ceramic Vases and Never Wilt Flowers for Aunty Johnna (30 Million Credits, 15 Production)
1 Blue PI Tech T-Shirt (3.7 Million Credits, 1.59 Production)
1 Masterwork Ceramic Vases and Never Wilt Flowers for Aunty Johnna (30 Million Credits, 15 Production)
1 Blue PI Tech T-Shirt (3.7 Million Credits, 1.59 Production)
Would not be a valid order set... it has no connection... it just random stuff. It's also a bounch of things you guys don't make, but I'm just makeing a set of items that don't go together.
Then again, I may not need to so... meh?
Any I'm calling in quest vote so some one do a tally if you would.
Also @UberJJK when you get a moment, can you see if you can have some of the relevant information to present to players from the finance document is easy for me to grab?
Stuff like:
Current Free Production
Minimum Post Tax Free Credits (basically if all the Free Production gets used)
Maximum Post Tax Free Credits (If all the Free Production is sold)
I think the item in bold is the only one that isn't actually on the sheet unless it got added. But I'm going to need to poll those often I think.
Not sure if there is any thing else I'd need to post often that the players need to see from that beautiful but arcane work. Any thing you or the @TheEyes reference often I need to show to the players?
Chargone
Invisable operator
- Location
- New Zealand
I'd recommended rebalancing the research system for straight up points-buying, rather than dice, myself, as it currently functionally is already, but with a system that makes it really inaccessible in comparison. An action system would, of course, be even more so and let you slow things down if you thought it necessary, but i think that might be too far the other way.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Well...why is that frightening?
I don't see any real difference between something being in a new post instead of under a new header as part of a monster post, except that the former can be a little easier to digest - which is the goal.
Last edited:
Chargone
Invisable operator
- Location
- New Zealand
I believe it would cause a bit more overhead in keeping track of each bit turn to turn, for one thing.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Er, could you explain that?
...are we talking about the work caused by having more links to click from?
This is a genuine worry for me too, I have to say.
You know, I'm wondering if we should limit all the Production spending and major build orders (eg. the things that use up ~90% of our quarterly discretionary budget) to a single vote, sort of a "Manufacturing" update, lest we find that we want to trade back some of the production we had spent in a previos update, and suddenly find ourselves unable.
Heh, one thing I want to do in 2174-Q4 is what I'm calling "Project Landfall" where we build factory complexes in or around Earth's 100 most populous cities, giving us 9,000,000 production/quarter worth of factory space in 2175-Q3, which should help out a lot in our first few waves of the great Cabira rollout.
Only other thing I can think of is the post-tax credit -to- unused production conversion factor; that'd be particularly useful for people looking into how much cash we give up each time we dedicate Production to something.
- Location
- Leeds
Could we please delay the Cabira? Its a great design and probably the best counter Reaper weapon possible, but the only way we could get further from what the Alliance wants is offering Dreadnoughts.
They need a system defence ship, something that prevents planetary raids until it has been destroyed, the Canira's stealth and ranged capabilities mean that its best used from far far away. For the Alliance I'd recommend something like as many Super Pilums as we can fit on the ship, Repulsor Cannons, possibly modifying a EDIT( Not Gardian the shield projector that the other company developed ) shield so that we could project shields as planes for controlling enemy movements and a spinal Mac for conventional engagements. And of course, a ton of Arc Reactors.
This load out gives minimal systems draining power from the ships shields without compromising firepower and is happiest fighting at extremely close ranges. That makes it as much of a change to conventional tactics as the Cabira.
And if its done with the Pynda design we can swap out the equipment for Cabira's when the Reapers are coming.
They need a system defence ship, something that prevents planetary raids until it has been destroyed, the Canira's stealth and ranged capabilities mean that its best used from far far away. For the Alliance I'd recommend something like as many Super Pilums as we can fit on the ship, Repulsor Cannons, possibly modifying a EDIT( Not Gardian the shield projector that the other company developed ) shield so that we could project shields as planes for controlling enemy movements and a spinal Mac for conventional engagements. And of course, a ton of Arc Reactors.
This load out gives minimal systems draining power from the ships shields without compromising firepower and is happiest fighting at extremely close ranges. That makes it as much of a change to conventional tactics as the Cabira.
And if its done with the Pynda design we can swap out the equipment for Cabira's when the Reapers are coming.
Last edited:
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Rolling out the Pynda and delaying the Cabira are unrelated things, really. The Cabira is a specific grouping of techs brought together to allow a specific function - in other words, a ship type as much as it was a class.
The Pynda is a fundamental shift in how ships and ship design and ship types/classifications work, brought to the universe courtesy of hyper-modularity: We sell frames, and then things that can be mixed-and-matched to fill those frames. As our tech advances, the various bits of filling getting better.
Specific groups of synergistic filling create "builds", the Cabira just being the name for a specific "build". One we don't have all the bits of filling for, but will eventually.
So frigates? Frigates aren't just pickets and patrol boats anymore, limited to that function thanks to their size. Now you focus more on the roles you want filled, then select the build that best allows that (some builds being something you can probably get in various sizes, Frigate to Dreadnought).
Last edited:
I disagree. Stealth means the attackers can't be sure where the defending ships are, and if they are there. It allows Alliance to bluff on how many ships they have. Besides that, TIR is an essential gateway tech that has to be developed. It opens up a lot of options, like virtually limitless capacity energy storage devices (which leads to direct energy-to-matter generation), thermal annihilation, thermal shielding and stealth. It's something that needs to be researched, as it shifts the paradigm.
The logic behind Cabira is that Reapers will attack anyway. In fact, the cycle is likely already past the point of when Reapers should have started attacking. And, considering that superbiotic soldier, they might have started already. So, quick action is needed. One of the strategic points of developing Cabira is to show that static defenses aren't workable, and that alpha-strike is impossible to block. Stealth in space and independence from relays make defending worlds and stationary installations from first strike strategies impossible. This is something that needs to be demonstrated before Reapers can capitalize on it. The only sure way of doing so is by developing technology that can do the same trick, so as to force politics and military strategists to come up with counter measures and tactics.
We are boosting the economy, and, in fact, you'll notice that my suggestion is that we develop P&P skills as soon as possible, so the economy can adapt as fast as possible, maximizing the growth rate. But we also need to create incentive for fundamental changes. Simply large economy, developed in the current development paradigm, would still be susceptible to a crippling first attack by Reapers. We need to make it resistant to such tactics.
Which is one of the reasons quarians are important - they have the largest amount of experience in long-term civilization-wide nomadic lifestyle. If that experience could be appropriated and ported to Paragon Industries backed technological basis, we might just come up with something worthwhile.
To late! One knows at least. Sovereign/Nazara.
Actually the Reapers Kinda like Revy in a weird eldritch abominationy way.
I subscribe to the theory that the Rachni Wars were Sovereign/Nazara's first try at getting things going again. So galaxy is past due by nearly 2000 years. This Cycle was kinda pathetic.
Last edited:
Let me guess
ARC reactor is so BS (and not cycle-predicted ME-based BS either) that Reapers, or at least the Catalyst, are kinda hopeful for a new solution. Or at least want to prolong the cycle long enough to milk Revy for all she's worth, technology-wise?
Yeah, it kinda was. Protheans really dropped the ball with asari, didn't they?
- Location
- Leeds
That is all true, and in my post I acknowledged that there is probably nothing better for defeating Reapers.
However I still don't think its the right choice for a colony defence frigate, for starters bluffing the number of ships the Alliance has is irrelevant to pirates and raiders. Thats a diplomatic weapon and the people the ship will be fighting only care how many are in the system rather than how many there are in total, something they can guess at by assuming ships are deployed in the same ratios.
Secondly due to the distance that the Cabira operates at, its reasonable for whoever is raiding to just hide in the shelter of the planet, the Cabira would need to be orders of magnitude faster to keep the ships in view. The ship is fundamentally offensive and I think that its specialities mean that it is limited defensively.
Sovereign:Revy sempai, join us. We'll make you your own dreadnought body.
That's the point. They won't be able to know if there's a ship in the system or not. Because stealth. And, as ships will be moving from system to system, they'll never know. It strongly increases risk factor.
Besides, TIR can be used for other ships and defense installations too. You could drastically decrease the number needed by making them invisible.