Uh, that is actually a pretty good idea. Hummmm, perhaps with a caveat that if the Emperor is assassinated during the time you are the successor, a new successor will be chosen? Because, you know, Roman.
I'd already spotted that knife-based failure mode tied to the duration of the Emperor-elect position, yes. :)

Anti-assassination clause as a start, sure.

You also maybe push the designated heir out of Rome? Make him rule a significant province like Egypt (but not command legions), for the experience(+wealth+popularity for feeding Rome with Egyptian grain) and to make it harder to organise a night of the long knives?

So far it doesn't do much about the guy with the largest armies installing himself.

I could see that working that's not the problem, the issue is political. A republic has tradition associated with it and there were still quite a few people who wanted to maintain it and seizing power through your armies has the virtue of simplicity but making an elective monarchy popular with Romans seems like a long shot.
My hope is that by extending the existing cursus honorium by adding a post of 'heir to Empire' carries some weight of the tradition of ambitious and hopefully competent Romans seeking accomplishment and competing for election to the office.

As long as you can stop these ambitious youngish men from ensuring they are 'promoted' to Emperor-for-life before their term as Heir is up.
 
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So far it doesn't do much about the guy with the largest armies installing himself.
The solution to that has more to do with breaking the cycle of legionnaires' personal loyalty to their general and willingness to betray the Roman political system for the sake of that loyalty.

Ultimately, no political system can survive a Caesar. Not if he also controls the loyalty of a dominant portion of the army, and that army is willing to kill his political rivals at his command. Even if the would-be warlord has no allies at all within the political part of the system, he'll succeed in breaking the system and installing himself as tyrant.
 
The solution to that has more to do with breaking the cycle of legionnaires' personal loyalty to their general and willingness to betray the Roman political system for the sake of that loyalty.

Ultimately, no political system can survive a Caesar. Not if he also controls the loyalty of a dominant portion of the army, and that army is willing to kill his political rivals at his command. Even if the would-be warlord has no allies at all within the political part of the system, he'll succeed in breaking the system and installing himself as tyrant.
Yeah, military reforms are probably a separate and necessary track. Ensuring the loyalty of the army to the state itself, not their general.
 
A look crosses Veniximaeus' face for a moment. You wish that by some divine gift of artistry, you could capture that ephemeral expression, a sketch or a painting formed in an instant. You'd caption it The Effective Mercenary, and it'd be one for the ages, you just know it somehow.

And this makes me wonder what we would have done had we taken skill in the arts.

I mean, we'd probably be dead by now if we took it instead of war, but still.
 
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Uh, that is actually a pretty good idea. Hummmm, perhaps with a caveat that if the Emperor is assassinated during the time you are the successor, a new successor will be chosen? Because, you know, Roman.
That clause would just mean that instead of the current elect having a motive to kill the emperor, their enemies would.
 
That clause would just mean that instead of the current elect having a motive to kill the emperor, their enemies would.
Unless the emperor-elect and emperor are themselves enemies, this would already be the case anyway, so... I'm not sure that makes the situation any worse?

Alternatively, we could rule that the current successor-elect is eligible to run for re-election along with everyone else, in the election that seeks a replacement for an assassinated emperor. Thus, he cannot be deposed by assassinating the reigning emperor, unless he has already lost his popularity only a few years after being elected to the office in the first place.

And yes, this strictly leaves us open to attempts to secure a 'Klingon promotion' by backstabbing the emperor, but it wouldn't work unless the backstabber was so popular that even when his predecessor dies suspiciously, he still wins the ensuing election. In my opinion, realistically we are NOT going to be able to fully eliminate violence from Roman politics. As such, it may be better to create some viable channels by which a sufficiently hated emperor CAN be violently removed from office, rather than relying on purely legalistic methods of removing one, which would predictably be subverted by the first power-hungry emperor to come down the Appian Way.

And this makes me wonder what we would have done had we taken skill in the arts.
Well, if Marcus Atellus had a literally photographic memory, he could have captured that instantaneous facial expression and turned it into a living, breathing, 2500-years-early Schlock Mercenary reference. :p
 
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All this tinkering with emperor and emperor-elect systems sounds not much less futile (well not so much futile than not fixing fundamentally broken things) than things that were tried in reality, like the Tetrarchy, or Augustus' improvised imperial status quo jury-rigging.

Rome has fundamental socio-political problems.

Hence, if you want to reform Roman politics, you have to make fundamental changes in Roman society.
 
All this tinkering with emperor and emperor-elect systems sounds not much less futile (well not so much futile than not fixing fundamentally broken things) than things that were tried in reality, like the Tetrarchy, or Augustus' improvised imperial status quo jury-rigging.

Rome has fundamental socio-political problems.

Hence, if you want to reform Roman politics, you have to make fundamental changes in Roman society.
While you're not wrong, that might have to wait until we're Emperor, though. ;)
 
All this tinkering with emperor and emperor-elect systems sounds not much less futile (well not so much futile than not fixing fundamentally broken things) than things that were tried in reality, like the Tetrarchy, or Augustus' improvised imperial status quo jury-rigging.

Once again... Rome survived and at times even prospered for centuries after the "fall" of the Republic - a feat that many modern nations have yet to beat. So I am really sceptical when it comes to claims like that Augustus reforms doomed Rome, especially so since large parts of the first and second century are viewed as some of the high points of Rome. Yes, Rome didn't survive forever but it survived far longer than most empires and kingdoms.

I mean for gods sake what exactly does a nation have to in your eyes to be counted as successful?
 
Once again... Rome survived and at times even prospered for centuries after the "fall" of the Republic - a feat that many modern nations have yet to beat. So I am really sceptical when it comes to claims like that Augustus reforms doomed Rome, especially so since large parts of the first and second century are viewed as some of the high points of Rome. Yes, Rome didn't survive forever but it survived far longer than most empires and kingdoms.

I mean for gods sake what exactly does a nation have to in your eyes to be counted as successful?

I completely agree with you that Rome was a successful polity for centuries after the end of the republic, if it comes across differently then I expressed myself poorly.

When people say that Rome "failed", it's that it wasn't up to their ideals, whatever those ideals may be.

I only mean that if they want Rome to met those ideals, then Roman late-republican society must undergo very serious changes.
 
The requirement, IIRC, was a net worth of at least a million sesterces, which, assuming I remember my conversions properly, we meet.
 
... we need better stewardship...
Yes. Or at least "less bad" Stewardship. Fortunately, improving our Stewardship to the point where we at least don't actively have penalties in it wouldn't take that many XP.

Of course, to be fair, a hundred thousand denarii is about fifteen talents of gold, which is a lot compared to our present fortunes but not an unattainable amount when you think about the size of our share of the loot from individual small towns in Samnium. A campaign or two in the Orient and we could be set. The real problem is that ideally you'd want an income stream not just a big treasury full of loot, and that requires obtaining either large tracts of land or being someone like Crassus who (SO UNBECOMING) has actual business acumen.

Yeah you do not really start to make money in large amounts until you are a Pro-Consul.
To be fair, all of that was institutionally designed around the assumption that anyone pursuing public office would already be independently wealthy.
 
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If we are looking for a big constant stream of gold there is one way but most people are going to be against it. Crassus is already rich but made himself even richer by helping Sulla. With his family money and his loot he than bought land at a major discount when Sulla starting killing his political opponents and seizing their properties. He will seize everything they have and sale it while also killing the male members of the family and ensure that the women do not marry. Sulla killed a lot of people when he took Rome.

Now these would make our plucky future emperor of mankind incredible rich but it will also but him as low and scummy as Crassus. Why yes I dislike Crassus very much.
 
If we are looking for a big constant stream of gold there is one way but most people are going to be against it. Crassus is already rich but made himself even richer by helping Sulla. With his family money and his loot he than bought land at a major discount when Sulla starting killing his political opponents and seizing their properties. He will seize everything they have and sale it while also killing the male members of the family and ensure that the women do not marry. Sulla killed a lot of people when he took Rome.

Now these would make our plucky future emperor of mankind incredible rich but it will also but him as low and scummy as Crassus. Why yes I dislike Crassus very much.

Or we could conquer Dacia or some other area with a large amount of gold mines. Stick with our strengths that way
 
Wealthy on some level perhaps, but you needed to take out loans to even have a chance.
The thing is... assuming @Telamon didn't outright pull his numbers for the wealth of men like Caesar (and Atellus) out of a hat, there's a good underlying reason for this. Namely, that while most of these men are staggeringly rich in the sense of "own things that are in theory exchangeable for enormous piles of tons and tons of gold," they are not rich in the sense of "have a large income stream."

Quintus Atellus' net worth is something like 81 talents (presumably cash) of 'wealth' plus 946 talents of real estate (land and the very valuable domus which may be a typo?). Plus thirty-one slaves; I don't know how much the average costs of Quintus' slaves is but I doubt this adds more than a few talents' worth to the total, tops.

The thing is, he's got (assuming no typos) roughly a thousand talents of "net worth" in modern terms... but only about eighty talents of that is in 'liquid assets,' and his income is less than one talent per year. Think about the implications of that. If you picture Quintus as a 'trust fund kid,' well, his trust fund is making about 0.1% annual interest. If his estates continued to accrue value at their current rate and he spent only the slightest pittance on personal upkeep, the Cingulata would have about doubled their money by the time freaking Charlemagne came through on his way to be crowned Holy 'Roman' Emperor. For all intents and purposes, his income/outflow stream is going to be governed almost entirely by his ability to take in big lump sums of money from military campaigns or other sources, and to spend money in a steady trickle that his income has hardly a prayer of even putting a dent in.

Take a notional Roman patrician whose ratio of income (~1 talent/yr) to liquid assets (~80 talents) to non-liquid assets (~950 talents) is anywhere near similar, and you immediately see both why patricians find themselves constantly having to take out loans, and why they struggle to pay off their loans. Because if Sextus Superfluous or whatever his name is manages to run through that big pile of liquid assets he's sitting on, he can't regenerate it in any meaningful amount of time unless he can go rob some foreigners or something. And the odds are his lifestyle will take a huge hit, resulting in him rapidly losing the prestige and status he'd need in order to even get the chance to go rob some foreigners. From his point of view, taking out loans is the only rational option, and to be fair he has a massive pile of land that could theoretically serve as collateral... but he can't actually sell the land because if he does, his income stream goes even further in the toilet, plus he loses status and prestige, see previous problem.

...

Now, as Roman patricians go Quintus has fallen on 'hard times,' and is of no great financial status, but the core issue is still there even for monstrously successful patricians. Caesar c. 44 BC is listed as having 4000 talents of presumably liquid-ish 'wealth,' 1860 talents' worth of real estate, and a few hundred slaves. His income stream is six talents per year.

Caesar forty years from now only has about twice as much real estate (in cash value terms) as Quintus Atellus. He only has, oh, five to seven times more slaves, I forget exactly. But he has FIFTY TIMES as much money in that giant pile of probably-mostly-liquid wealth he's sitting on. And that is what enables him to keep up appearances, support his clients, and finally, finally make authentic obscene Greco-Roman hand gestures at his creditors.

So the really significant financial difference between late teenage Atellus and Caesar at the height of his power is just that gigantic pile of gold bricks Caesar's sitting on top of, from successful campaigns throughout the Mediterranean.

...

Again, this explains three things:

1) Our path to financial comfort probably has more to do with securing lump sum payments from other sources, and less to do with maximizing the income stream of our estates. Not that we shouldn't try to do that, but it's not going to get us a lot of traction by itself. Unless we push the Stewardship/Administration angle much harder than we have to date, it's always going to be that way unless we can find some very, very trustworthy and talented plebeian businessmen who we can act as a 'silent partner' with or something.

2) Crassus was insanely rich because he was one of the handful of Roman patricians who had any damn clue how to "spend money to make money." As such, he could use the power of his political standing to gain wealth efficiently, whereas all his rivals were spectacularly bad at this unless they just happened to be military geniuses.

3) This is why so many Roman patricians found themselves running out of money and having to take out loans: because their wealth consisted of a big chunk of real estate they (almost) couldn't sell, a much smaller pile of liquid assets they could replenish only very slowly if at all, and a tiny pathetic income stream that was negligible compared to the first two.

If we are looking for a big constant stream of gold there is one way but most people are going to be against it. Crassus is already rich but made himself even richer by helping Sulla. With his family money and his loot he than bought land at a major discount when Sulla starting killing his political opponents and seizing their properties. He will seize everything they have and sale it while also killing the male members of the family and ensure that the women do not marry. Sulla killed a lot of people when he took Rome.

Now these would make our plucky future emperor of mankind incredible rich but it will also but him as low and scummy as Crassus. Why yes I dislike Crassus very much.
I don't think Quintus Atellus could do that even if he wanted to.

FIrstly, I think we're probably better off if Sulla loses the war in the east against Marius. If Sulla wins, Pompey is almost certainly going to raise legions and join him. Remember how Pompey hates us? Also, how he can regale Sulla with the story of how we ratted out his anti-Marian conspiracy (admittedly to the optimates, not to the Marians). We might end up on Sulla's hit list ourselves if we're not careful. By contrast, if Marius wins, it's entirely possible that he drops dead of a heart attack shortly thereafter, at which point his successors (e.g. his son Marius the Younger, Cinna, and Sertorius) will be in a fairly secure political position and may be able to make a rapprochement rather than have any more rounds of slaughters and proscriptions.

Even if there are Marian proscriptions in the wake of a Marian victory... well, while Scaevola is at risk of being purged by Marians, we are probably safe, because Sertorius will remember us as the right-hand man who helped him conquer the Samnites. Pompey, conversely, is... I won't say Pompey is fucked, but he's in a much more disadvantageous position and may find himself having to ironically reverse roles with Sertorius and flee to some remote part of the Republic's territory.

Secondly, Crassus managed to succeed financially in this way because, in mechanical terms, he was an extremely gifted Stewardship/Administration build. Quintus Atellus... is not. If he engages in real estate speculation he is very likely to end up losing his shirt, even under favorable conditions, unless he grinds the hell out of Stewardship over the next couple of years.

Or we could conquer Dacia or some other area with a large amount of gold mines. Stick with our strengths that way
So honestly, I think that securing wealth through successful military campaigns may be our best bet. Unless we decide to hella grind stewardship.
 
I really think we should grind stewardship if for no other reason than to make sure our income and economic security isn't constantly balancing between catastrophe and subsistence.
 
I've said it several times before, but we need Scaevola to hold it together long enough for us to get another shot at learning from him. We haven't seen any other sources of Stewardship XP, especially not a risk free one like Scaevola.
 
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Ok the reason I am saying we copy Crassus is that we need the money to get the support, raise the legions, feed and cloth said legions, than bribe anyone we have to for support. We cannot conquer anyone until we get the money. So one of the easiest ways is buy land on the cheap when whoever wins comes back and kills there enemies. It is not lessen for moral but we need the cash and we are not going to do it anytime soon.

Also we should hope that bestest teacher lives long enough for us to learn from him. He is one of the best Administrators ever.
 
Grinding Stewardship is definitely something I want to do (I mean I want to go full on Sneering British Imperialist so....), conquering Dacia and/or Gaul and/or Egypt and/or Iraq also would work for the one-off liquid capital boost. I mean we could partner with someone, but....
best thing to do would be to partner with a business savvy pleb (maybe even marry our sister off to the Roman equivalent of the rich ladder climbing burgher) rather than trust an ambitious and independent minded man like Crassus.
 
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