Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

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I think everyone agrees that Spurio can't be trusted but we might not have to trust him in order to use him. We can't trust him enough to leave the town defenseless or turn on the militia but we could tell him to leave the town. That doesn't require us to trust him, we'd merely have to pay him after and maybe less that what we'd have to pay him for actively fighting against the Samnites. Considering we looted 60 talents from the previous town, I'd say that offering him 6 talents for simply leaving is fair. We can mollify the men with the loot we gain from this town. Having Spurio leave will demoralise the defenders and leave them vulnerable to a 'shock and awe' tactic. These are peasants, not trained warriors and regardless of how determined they are now, they'll run away when they see their friends getting butchered by actual soldiers.

So here's my plan:
[X] Plan Divide et Impera
-[X] Accept Spurio's offer, and have him and his soldiers simply sneak out of town one night, reducing the forces in the town by a good fifty men.
--[X] Offer him only 6 talents, a tenth of our wealth. He isn't taking the same risk so he doesn't get the same reward.
--[X] If Spurio rejects your offer or doesn't leave, tell the defenders about his offer.
--[X] After Spurio's desertion or rejection of our proposal, offer the town one last chance to surrender and guarantee that everyone with the exception of the ringleaders will be spared. If they don't take you up on your generous offer, the consequences will be most dire. Rome doesn't tolerate defiance twice. If they surrender, enslave them all.
-[X] Charge
-[X] Vae Victis
--[X] Leave at least few alive and free in order to spread the word about the town's fate.

So the general theme of the plan is to try and pit the Samnites against each other and demoralise them to the point that they'll either surrender or be easier to steamroll for our soldiers if we fail to get them to outright surrender. I don't really care about a bunch of bandits and 6 talents is a pittance compared to the loot we'll gain from looting and burning this place to the ground and selling everyone we're capturing as slaves.

EDIT: You can just tell me if the write-in is too much @Telamon.
 
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[X] Cautious Tolerance

Spurio
- [] Accept Spurio's offer, and have him leave the defenses of the town unmanned one night, allowing for your forces to attack unseen, and perhaps even take the town bloodlessly.
- We will attempt to negotiate for a smaller payment
- Inquire about his willingness to provide us information about the political and military situation and developments in the region in exchange for coin, especially in regards to the local leaders of the Samnites and those who may be willing to cooperate with Rome (after the battle of course)

Attack
- Sneak [] You order a detachment of men to sneak around the town while the cohort remains encamped outside. The men will scale one of the hills and attack the town from behind. While no force large enough to take the town could feasibly do this, a sudden and furious attack from within could throw the militia into enough disarray that your main force could attack from the front, crushing them with ease. Of course, this is not exactly the most Roman way to war -- but it is the smartest.
--[] Stay with the main force.
--[] Share your doubts about the trustworthiness of Spurio with your commanders and take precautions should it turn out to be a trap.

Town
- Necessary punishment [] : Aeclanum and its people failed to heed the warning of Sulla and will thus have to pay the price for their arrogance and resistance and yet your intention was and is to make Samnium a profitable and loyal region of Rome and not a depopulated wasteland. Because of that you will give the defeated people of Aeclanum a choice - either undergo a decimation (with the "citizens" themselves being responsible for the killing of their compatriots) or face the total annihilation and destruction of their town. This will hopefully serve as a clear warning to all other Samnites of what awaits those that betray Rome! Should they choose the former you will temper the looting of their town and let their temples survive while the later will see you complete the work Sulla has already begun.
- And after stay in the town and ensure its future loyalty
 
Telamon said:
Actually, Spurio's fifty bandits are probably some of the healthiest and best-fed men in the town, with the majority of the militia other than them consisting of said starving farmers. They're loyal to coin first, Spurio second, and Samnium a distant, distant third.
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It's still a lot of money. D9 we value the gold more than the lives we might lost storming t he place? Do we expect the legion to take heavy losses?

My first thought was to pull a Stannis, give him his gold then hang him. (The Mongols did something similar whem they invaded Anatolia- they bribed one tribe to leave, beat the rest, then chased down the defectors and slaughtered them) My current thought is to tell the Samnites he tried to defect, sowing discontent.
 
Telamon said:
Actually, Spurio's fifty bandits are probably some of the healthiest and best-fed men in the town, with the majority of the militia other than them consisting of said starving farmers. They're loyal to coin first, Spurio second, and Samnium a distant, distant third.
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That makes it even more imperative that they not be left alone as an intact fighting force to wreak havoc wherever they feel like it. There is a First Cohort here, better to smash them cleanly than leave the mess for some citizen militia to take horrible loses trying to deal with.

[X] Plan Carota et Bacculum
- [X] Reject Spurio's offer and send a messenger to the town informing them of his attempted betrayal.
-- [X] Inform the town further of the following terms:
- They shall hand over the heads of Spurio and the other bandits, as well as all of their ill-gotten wealth.
- They shall hand over exactly half of the total wealth of the town as tribute. Any bandit heads short of fifty-one will carry an additional penalty.
- They shall completely disarm and swear an oath before their own temples and priests that neither they nor their descendants shall ever again take up arms against Rome. All weapons shall be handed over, but will not count for the tribute.
- They have 12 hours to comply. Failure to comply will result in the First Cohort marching on the town.​
- [X] Charge (if they don't comply)
- [X] Vae Victis (if they don't comply)

The point of these terms is to incentivize them to kill each and every last one of Spurio's bandits, bleeding them of fighting men in the process. They likely won't be able to get all of them, and undoubtedly some of the townspeople will use this opportunity to settle grudges by killing those they don't like and trying to pass those heads off as bandits. This breeds further distrust among the townspeople, sapping their will to resist and making the area overall easier to pacify.

If they do manage to meet the quota with actual bandits, of course, we still get a nice haul of wealth and clear out a dangerous band of bandits without having to lose a single legionary.
 
[X] Plan Carota et Bacculum
- [X] Reject Spurio's offer and send a messenger to the town informing them of his attempted betrayal.
-- [X] Inform the town further of the following terms:
- They shall hand over the heads of Spurio and the other bandits, as well as all of their ill-gotten wealth.
- They shall hand over exactly half of the total wealth of the town as tribute. Any bandit heads short of fifty-one will carry an additional penalty.
- They shall completely disarm and swear an oath before their own temples and priests that neither they nor their descendants shall ever again take up arms against Rome. All weapons shall be handed over, but will not count for the tribute.
- They have 12 hours to comply. Failure to comply will result in the First Cohort marching on the town.​
- [X] Charge (if they don't comply)
- [X] Vae Victis (if they don't comply)
 
[X] Plan Carota et Bacculum
- [X] Reject Spurio's offer and send a messenger to the town informing them of his attempted betrayal.
-- [X] Inform the town further of the following terms:
- They shall hand over the heads of Spurio and the other bandits, as well as all of their ill-gotten wealth.
- They shall hand over exactly half of the total wealth of the town as tribute. Any bandit heads short of fifty-one will carry an additional penalty.
- They shall completely disarm and swear an oath before their own temples and priests that neither they nor their descendants shall ever again take up arms against Rome. All weapons shall be handed over, but will not count for the tribute.
- They have 12 hours to comply. Failure to comply will result in the First Cohort marching on the town.
- [X] Charge (if they don't comply)
- [X] Vae Victis (if they don't comply)
 
firestorm440 said:
That makes it even more imperative that they not be left alone as an intact fighting force to wreak havoc wherever they feel like it. There is a First Cohort here, better to smash them cleanly than leave the mess for some citizen militia to take horrible loses trying to deal with.
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What reason would Spurio and his bandits have to attack armed and armored men? Bandits typically avoid hard targets like that in favor of civilians who we don't really give a shit about in this case because they're Samnites.
 
Versharl said:
What reason would Spurio and his bandits have to attack armed and armored men? Bandits typically avoid hard targets like that in favor of civilians who we don't really give a shit about in this case because they're Samnites.
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I'm not so concerned about that, more concerned about what happens after the legion moves on and Rome needs to do governing things with Roman civilians.
 
firestorm440 said:
I'm not so concerned about that, more concerned about what happens after the legion moves on and Rome needs to do governing things with Roman civilians.
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I don't know about you but in my mind, our absolute top priority is putting down the current rebellion and breaking the Samnites so thoroughly that they'll never revolt again. Dealing with a few dozen bandits is fairly low on "things to fix in Samnium" and certainly not an serious issue for the Roman administration that'll be introduced after we've suppressed the rebellion. This is stuff that every single provincial governer deals with regularly.
 
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firestorm440 said:
I'm not so concerned about that, more concerned about what happens after the legion moves on and Rome needs to do governing things with Roman civilians.
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A handful of "bandits" (and honestly in all likelihood Spurio will most likely take this money and disappear) are unlikely to matter much in the greater scheme of things - hell we are talking about a country shortly after a civil war and still experiencing severe political and social unrest so there are most likely hundreds if not thousands of such guys running around all ready. And honestly if there is one thing we can be confident this campaign will result in it are countless more bandits, that is simply a result of warfare (and even more so if we go with the more radical proposals...)
 
Even if we grant that this handful of bandits won't be a problem in the years to come, there are still very valid psychological reasons for Carota et Bacculum.

1. It breeds distrust of each other among the townspeople. This reduces their potential and ability to cause trouble in the future.
2. It trains the townspeople to do the bidding of Romans. They'll have bled and killed for Roman objectives. That both makes it psychologically simpler for them to do so in the future, and, once word gets out, will spread distrust of the town among other Samnites, further alienating them from each other.
 
firestorm440 said:
Even if we grant that this handful of bandits won't be a problem in the years to come, there are still very valid psychological reasons for Carota et Bacculum.

1. It breeds distrust of each other among the townspeople. This reduces their potential and ability to cause trouble in the future.
2. It trains the townspeople to do the bidding of Romans. They'll have bled and killed for Roman objectives. That both makes it psychologically simpler for them to do so in the future, and, once word gets out, will spread distrust of the town among other Samnites, further alienating them from each other.
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What is this, Psychology 101? I'm honestly not even sure where to start with this. First off, People are a bit more complex than that, particularly when they absolutely hate your guts before you try and 'train them'. They're not going to go: "Oh, we killed Spurius and his men last year when the legion came along, let's remember to pay the tax collector!" Remember, this particular town was sacked and had its walls torn down by Sulla not 5 years ago, yet here they are again. Letting them off the hook by killing 50 bandits and handing over some of their wealth isn't going to cut it. Swearing an oath is front of their gods is probably equally worthless since their priests will probably just declare any oath to a Roman void. Fear is the only thing that'll keep these people in line, at least in the short run.

You're not making an example out of them except an example of how you can defy Rome twice and still get away with it relatively easily.
 
there is also another thing that seems to be being overlooked. if we pay and have Spurio leave 10 Talents could pay for quite a few Mercs causing us to possibly fight more armed forces in the future
 
Yeah, what's to stop him from turning around and using the ten talents to fuck with us afterward? We have only the word of a criminal, and an enemy of Rome.
 
Darkcrest said:
there is also another thing that seems to be being overlooked. if we pay and have Spurio leave 10 Talents could pay for quite a few Mercs causing us to possibly fight more armed forces in the future
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Professor Vesca said:
Yeah, what's to stop him from turning around and using the ten talents to fuck with us afterward? We have only the word of a criminal, and an enemy of Rome.
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What's the motivation? He's a criminal and an opportunist and he's not going to risk his skin after a big haul. He's motivated by greed, not beliefs and it's not exactly profitable or good for your long-term health to hire mercs and conduct a guerilla campaign against Rome. You guys are making this to a waaay bigger deal than it is.
 
Professor Vesca said:
Yeah, what's to stop him from turning around and using the ten talents to fuck with us afterward? We have only the word of a criminal, and an enemy of Rome.
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That is always a risk but it has to be said that this sort of deal isn't exactly uncommon for this period (and indeed most of human history) with most cases that spring to my mind ending without such complications. And precisely because he is a bandit it seems unlikely that he (and his men) would invest this money into an already doomed cause instead of using it to get the fuck away and enjoy the rest of their life in previously unimagined luxury. I mean why would he do so? There is very little profit in such an action and he is far more likely to loose his money if he does than anything else.
 
Versharl said:
What is this, Psychology 101? I'm honestly not even sure where to start with this. First off, People are a bit more complex than that, particularly when they absolutely hate your guts before you try and 'train them'. They're not going to go: "Oh, we killed Spurius and his men last year when the legion came along, let's remember to pay the tax collector!" Remember, this particular town was sacked and had its walls torn down by Sulla not 5 years ago, yet here they are again. Letting them off the hook by killing 50 bandits and handing over some of their wealth isn't going to cut it. Swearing an oath is front of their gods is probably equally worthless since their priests will probably just declare any oath to a Roman void. Fear is the only thing that'll keep these people in line, at least in the short run.

You're not making an example out of them except an example of how you can defy Rome twice and still get away with it relatively easily.
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And your proposal is an example of how bandits can extort gold out of a Roman Legion and get away with it relatively easily. If someone other than us has to walk away from this, I'd rather it be the people who aren't accustomed to casual violence.

Of course, none of this HAS to happen, and I'm open to arguments on the merit of just killing the whole lot of them and enslaving everyone who survives.
 
What are the odds Spurio will leave even if we don't pay him? He's got 50 competent fighters and 350 peasants going up against 500 elite Roman professional soldiers. This fight does not pay, and he knows it.

[X] Plan Mercator Revised
- [X] Refuse
- [X] Charge
- [X] Vae Victis

Let's run these losers over and move on.
Adhoc vote count started by JamesShazbond on Mar 7, 2018 at 4:34 PM, finished with 72 posts and 12 votes.
  • [X] Plan Carota et Bacculum
    - [X] Reject Spurio's offer and send a messenger to the town informing them of his attempted betrayal.
    -- [X] Inform the town further of the following terms:
    - [X] Charge (if they don't comply)
    - [X] Vae Victis (if they don't comply)
    [X] Plan Carota et Bacculum
    - [X] Reject Spurio's offer and send a messenger to the town informing them of his attempted betrayal.
    -- [X] Inform the town further of the following terms:
    - [X] Charge (if they don't comply)
    - [X] Vae Victis (if they don't comply)
    [X] Plan Sulla Redux​
    - [X] Cohors Primus​
    - [X] Mercy​
    - [X] Loot most of the town's wealth, leaving some few funds and the most hidden valuables behind. They will not be destitute, but they certainly won't be rich, either.​
    - [X] An Open Hand​
    - [X] You decide to launch an attack on Aeclanum, preparing the cohort to strike at a well-defended position. This, while not a true siege -- as Aeclanum has no walls worth mentioning -- will still be a battle of some note, your first such should you choose to strike.​
    [X] plan this deal is getting worse all the time
    [X] Accept Spurio's offer, and have him leave the defenses of the town unmanned one night, allowing for your forces to attack unseen, and perhaps even take the town bloodlessly.
    [X] Sneak
    --[X] Stay with the main force.
    [X] Vae Victis
    [X] Plan Fuck this guy and this town too
    -[X] Reject Spurio's offer and send a messenger to the town informing them of his attempted betrayal.
    -[X] Sneak
    --[X] Go with the detachment.
    -[X] Vae Victis
    [X] Plan Mercator
    -[X] Reject Spurio's offer and send a messenger to the town informing them of his attempted betrayal.
    -[X] Charge
    -[X] Vae Victis
    [X] Plan Divide et Impera
    -[X] Accept Spurio's offer, and have him and his soldiers simply sneak out of town one night, reducing the forces in the town by a good fifty men.
    --[X] Offer him only 6 talents, a tenth of our wealth. He isn't taking the same risk so he doesn't get the same reward.
    --[X] If Spurio rejects your offer or doesn't leave, tell the defenders about his offer.
    --[X] After Spurio's desertion or rejection of our proposal, offer the town one last chance to surrender and guarantee that everyone with the exception of the ringleaders will be spared. If they don't take you up on your generous offer, the consequences will be most dire. Rome doesn't tolerate defiance twice. If they surrender, enslave them all.
    -[X] Charge
    -[X] Vae Victis
    --[X] Leave at least few alive and free in order to spread the word about the town's fate.
    [X] Cautious Tolerance
    [X] Plan Mercator Revised
    - [X] Refuse
    - [X] Charge
    - [X] Vae Victis
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firestorm440 said:
And your proposal is an example of how bandits can extort gold out of a Roman Legion and get away with it relatively easily. If someone other than us has to walk away from this, I'd rather it be the people who aren't accustomed to casual violence.
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They're not extorting us. Extortion would be if they threatened to attack us unless we paid them money. We're making a deal that they'll leave and we'll give them some money in return. No threats involved there. Like I said previously, I'm not really worried about 50 bandits running around Samnium, I'm worried about the rebellion currently gathering thousands of warriors. Nobody is going to give a shit that we paid some bandits/mercs to abandon their allies. Let the governor deal with the bandits if they continue to cause trouble in the future.

Also, I'd really like if you actually engaged with the arguments instead of constantly moving the goalposts. It's getting tiresome.
 
[X] Plan Divide et Impera
-[X] Accept Spurio's offer, and have him and his soldiers simply sneak out of town one night, reducing the forces in the town by a good fifty men.
--[X] Offer him only 6 talents, a tenth of our wealth. He isn't taking the same risk so he doesn't get the same reward.
--[X] If Spurio rejects your offer or doesn't leave, tell the defenders about his offer.
--[X] After Spurio's desertion or rejection of our proposal, offer the town one last chance to surrender and guarantee that everyone with the exception of the ringleaders will be spared. If they don't take you up on your generous offer, the consequences will be most dire. Rome doesn't tolerate defiance twice. If they surrender, enslave them all.
-[X] Charge
-[X] Vae Victis
--[X] Leave at least few alive and free in order to spread the word about the town's fate.

So the general theme of the plan is to try and pit the Samnites against each other and demoralise them to the point that they'll either surrender or be easier to steamroll for our soldiers if we fail to get them to outright surrender. I don't really care about a bunch of bandits and 6 talents is a pittance compared to the loot we'll gain from looting and burning this place to the ground and selling everyone we're capturing as slaves.

EDIT: You can just tell me if the write-in is too much @Telamon.
 
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