Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
- Original Historic
My understanding has always been that it goes like this:
- ~20: Ten years (in theory) military service, as some combination of cavalry officer, staff officer or elected tribune. Generally this will involve different legions.
- 30: Run for Quaestor, regardless of being plebian or patrician.
-31: Serve as Quaestor, either in the Treasury, managing the grain supply in Sicily or serving on the staff of a governor. In the last case we would be expected to remain in the province for the duration of the governor's term.
- 34: I'm not sure, but I think that, as a patrician, we can run for curule aedile at this point. Being aedile is not strictly required for progress on the cursus, but it is a good idea. It's a great office for wooing the electorate with games and such.
- 37: As a patrician we can definitely run for praetor.
- 38: Serve as praetor.
- 39: Propraetorian governor.
- 40: Run for consul.
- 41: Serve as consul.
- 42: Proconsular governor.
- 43+: Stretch goal - run for and serve as censor.
- ~20: Ten years (in theory) military service, as some combination of cavalry officer, staff officer or elected tribune. Generally this will involve different legions.
- 30: Run for Quaestor, regardless of being plebian or patrician.
-31: Serve as Quaestor, either in the Treasury, managing the grain supply in Sicily or serving on the staff of a governor. In the last case we would be expected to remain in the province for the duration of the governor's term.
- 34: I'm not sure, but I think that, as a patrician, we can run for curule aedile at this point. Being aedile is not strictly required for progress on the cursus, but it is a good idea. It's a great office for wooing the electorate with games and such.
- 37: As a patrician we can definitely run for praetor.
- 38: Serve as praetor.
- 39: Propraetorian governor.
- 40: Run for consul.
- 41: Serve as consul.
- 42: Proconsular governor.
- 43+: Stretch goal - run for and serve as censor.
Bullmoose
A True Aristocrat
- Location
- Philadelphia
[X] Plan Flexible
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus
Likely our last chance to learn something from venerable Tercerus. Sertorius had a thing for our father. I'm not too worried about conflict with him and he can tutor us on military matters as we gain command experience. Our in with the optimates shields us from any blowblack should Sulla win. Rufus at the very least will be dependable, we will gain another connection and his oratory may prove useful. This is the best choice.
Edit: I see the vote had already concluded. At least my choice won. Looking forward to time with sertorius.
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus
Likely our last chance to learn something from venerable Tercerus. Sertorius had a thing for our father. I'm not too worried about conflict with him and he can tutor us on military matters as we gain command experience. Our in with the optimates shields us from any blowblack should Sulla win. Rufus at the very least will be dependable, we will gain another connection and his oratory may prove useful. This is the best choice.
Edit: I see the vote had already concluded. At least my choice won. Looking forward to time with sertorius.
Last edited:
- Location
- Tarn-Vedra
[X] Plan Flexible
VII: The Samnite War, Turn I
Telamon
A corvid.
- Location
- Texas
[X] Plan Flexible
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus
-[X] Legio VI
-[X] Tercerus
-[X] Rufus
669 Years After The Founding Of Rome
The Year of Flaccus and Marius.
The great bull makes no sound as it dies. That, perhaps, is the strangest thing. You know from your education that the ritual bulls are selected for fierceness and aggression -- prized for such traits, even -- but as the old priest draws the knife across the throat of the large bull which has been bound before him, the creature merely regards him with a wide, skittish gaze. Even as blood begins to gush from its throat, it makes no sound, merely thrashing silently as the fire of life drains from it's eyes. After a minute or so, the torrent of blood slows to a more manageable gush, and a handful of plainly dressed servants move in with ceramic bowls that they place under the waterfall of thick red blood.
You stand in the Temple of Mars in the Campus Martius, greatest and mightiest of the edifices that your people have built to honor the one diety who has blessed them the most over the long centuries: Mars, the Red-Handed God of War. The temple is floored with marble, and it's imported Greek columns and painted walls are emblems of the Hellenic modernity that has crept into Rome in the century since this temple's construction -- emblems which clash with the ancient and wholly Roman ritual being carried out before your very eyes.
Known as the Rite of Gradivus, it calls upon the War-God in his aspect as Mars Gradivus, the Marching God, the patron of the legions. It calls for the commanding officers of a legion about to march to be bathed in the blood of a powerful bull, to sanctify them with the strength and power of Mars himself. An antiquated ritual, it is often bypassed or circumvented by Rome's largely patrician leaders, who dislike it due to the specificity of the ritual -- the bull must die on the Campus Martius at the break of day on the kalends, or first day, of the new month, often an impracticality to ambitious senators marching out to win glory on distant battlefields.
Nonetheless, it is a tradition Sertorius has chosen to observe. As you watch, the tall, muscular general allows himself to be stripped of his garments by the priests and clad in the plain white robes of a supplicant to Mars. In moments, they have done the same to you and your fellow tribunes. Rufus, standing at your side, is obviously uncomfortable as he is undressed, and his cheeks are red enough to match his hair. You can see why: where the bodies of yourself, Sertorius, and the other tribunes are all hard angles and lean lines of muscle, Rufus' body betrays the flabby heaviness of the intellectual, to the snickers of your fellow tribunes and officers. While you bear him no ill will yourself, a phrase your father shouted at you during your morning drills drifts into your mind: If the flesh is weak, the spirit must follow.
When all are stripped and re-dressed, Sertorius moves forward and kneels at the feet of the priest of Mars, an old man with a weathered face. One of the assistants hands him one of several bowls filled to the brim with the bull's blood, and, chanting solemnly, he pours it slowly over Sertorius' face. The thick blood runs dripping into his white vestments, pouring over the general and pooling underneath him on the floor. When the bowl is empty, he bids Sertorius to stand, then hands him another, larger bowl, as full as the last. The general's hands drip with gore as he reaches to take the offering -- a mortal reflection of the bloody-handed god himself, Mars, whose stony visage glares down from the statues that ring the temple.
The dark-haired general turns and walks to the first man in the line of officers, a short, wide man who bows his head with the stiff dignity of a lifelong soldier as Sertorious holds up the bowl, letting blood pour out over the man's head. He moves quickly down the line of officers, repeating the movements of the ancient ritual as the priests chant and light incense in the background. In moments, you are next. The general takes a moment to stare deeply into your eyes as if evaluating you, then tilts the bowl, sending warm, hot blood cascading over your head and shoulders. You can almost feel the massive, terrible strength of the bull running over you, soaking into your skin, your bones. The power and virility of a creature that knew no equal in life runs over you and into you, cleansing away what you were before.
Blinking red gore from your eyes in the dimly lit temple, you turn your head to look at your fellow tribunes. Where you had expected them to look silly drenched in blood from the shoulders up, in the flickering light of the temple, their faces seem almost changed by the blood streaking down them, and in their eyes, you see a glimmer of the same understanding you have just come to. You are boys no more, but soldiers in the legions, Romans true. No matter what you were before, it is nothing to the Red God. Optimate, populare, patrician, plebian, rich or poor -- it does not matter, for all soldiers are the same in the red glare of Mars.
In the days and weeks to come, the tales of the great General Sertorious' adherence to an ancient and outdated ritual meant to safeguard his troops and bring honor to the legion will spread through the men newly assigned to your command, and filter back into Rome itself. There, a popular legend begins among the people, one perhaps encouraged by Sertorius himself -- that the Sixth Legion has been blessed by Mars Gradivus, the soldier-god. Some even say that red Mars himself rides with them to end the Samnite threat to Rome once and for all.
(Sertorius) An Ancient Rite: 1d20 + 5 (Gift of Mars) = 19
Needed: 12
Great Success!
Needed: 12
Great Success!
Beneath thy yoke the Volscian shall vail his lofty brow;
Soft Capua's curled revellers before thy chairs shall bow:
The Lucumoes of Arnus shall quake thy rods to see
And the proud Samnite's heart of steel shall yield to only thee.
Campaign Begun: The Fourth Samnite War (85 BC -- ???)
Legion Assigned: Legio VI
Legion Commander: Quintus Sertorius, Legatus of Italia
Position: Tribunus Laticlavus, Broad-Striped Tribune
Legion Nickname Gained: LEGIO VI GRADIVIUS -- The Sixth Legion, Blessed-By-Mars.
De facto third-in-command after Sertorius and yourself, the Camp Prefect, Carcellus, is a lifelong soldier who has served in four legions. Sturdy, dependable, and to-the-point, his plebian upbringing and military history make him more well-liked among the men than Rufus or yourself. Indeed, it soon becomes clear he is only outmatched in the hearts and minds of the men by one other: Sertorius himself, who has long been a hero to the common man. The kindred the men feel with Carcellus has it's benefits, as he proves the day he walks into your office with news that might have taken days more to filter up to you.
You lean back in the wooden chair erected in your tent and take a deep sigh, looking at the men gathered with you in the dingy tent. At your side is Tercerus, a skinny, lean figure with stone eyes. Rufus looms in the corner, all bones and knees and pudginess -- pudginess you must admit has already begun to be trimmed by the first week or two of marching. In front of you, in direct contrast to Rufus and Tercerus, stands the squat, stout wall of bronzed muscle and curly black hair you know as Carcellus.
"So it will not come to blows?"
"Not yet," Carcellus replies evenly. "I let them know there was a whipping waiting for any man who tried to start it up again, but that'll only hold them for so long. Someone needs to be punished, and soon."
You can see Carcellus eyeing you as he says this, and you understand the reason he's brought this to you before the general. Sertorius would no doubt solve the problem readily, and on his own terms, but as Tribunus Laticlavus, keeping order in the legion is nominally your job. If you prove incompetent or unable to perform, Carcellus and Sertorius, lifelong soldiers, can no doubt pick up the slack -- so they must test you first, a fact which looms large in your mind as you think over this problem.
Several legionnaires have gotten into brawls with the equites, the cavalrymen. The legionnaires, all plebians, are clashing with the largely optimate equites. The equestrians are practically nobles in their own right, belonging to their own, separate class from plebian or patrician. Afforded respect and wealth for their position in the legions, they often view themselves as superior to the infantrymen. The legionnaires and the equites are not close friends in most legions, but in the Sixth, economical tensions have become worsened by political ones -- the legion itself was born of Sullan veterans, but Marius reinforced the understrength legion with many of his own recruits. The equites, veterans and nobles all, are partial to Sulla, while the legionnaires, for the most part, revere Marius as a god in flesh.
In the latest brawl, an equite of some standing among his fellow cavalrymen picked a fight with a legionnaire. The legionnaire proved the better fighter however, and caved his head in with a single blow. Roman blood has been spilled on Roman soil before any man in the legion has even laid eyes on the Samnites. Carcellus has imprisoned the legionnaire and whipped most of those involved, but final justice must be served. The equites demand justice for their fallen compatriot, and they are right in that killing a fellow soldier is treason, a crime punishable by death -- even moreso for the death of an equite, an incredibly valuable part of any Roman army.
However, the legionnaires are agitating against this, demanding that the equites be punished for their part in the whole affair, and that if a legionnaire must die, the equites must at least have their pay docked or their rations lowered.
[] Side With The Equites: The equites are not only fellow nobles and optimates, they are one of the most crucial parts of the army. Angering or dissatisfying the cavalrymen could have disastrous consequences, and, besides, they are in the right. Treason is treason is treason, and Roman blood demands blood be paid in return -- Roman or no.
--[] Justice: You order the legionnaire executed, and threaten reduced rations for any legionnaire who attempts to restart the matter.
--[] Retribution: You order the killer executed, and further dock the pay of all legionnaires involved in order to pay for funerary arrangements and payments to the families of the dead men.
[] Side With The Legionnaires: Your heart is with the legionnaires, being a closet populare yourself, and you must admit they have the right of it. They were set upon by equites, and the imprisoned legionnaire merely defended himself.
--[] Leniency: You dock the killer's pay and rations for a month, but otherwise let him go, threatening reduced rations and a court-martial for any man who attempts to restart the matter.
--[] Reparations: You order the killer executed for treason, but dock the pay of the equites to pay for funerary arrangements and payments to the family of the dead men.
[] Court-Martial: You decide to hold a military trial consisting of yourself and the other tribunes, to properly judge the accused and hand down a lawful sentence. You are outside the walls of Rome, but there is no reason Roman laws should not stand. Technically, any sentence must be approved by Sertorius himself, but Carcellus assures you that in this matter, at least, the general will follow your recommendation.
[] Write-In:
--[] Justice: You order the legionnaire executed, and threaten reduced rations for any legionnaire who attempts to restart the matter.
--[] Retribution: You order the killer executed, and further dock the pay of all legionnaires involved in order to pay for funerary arrangements and payments to the families of the dead men.
[] Side With The Legionnaires: Your heart is with the legionnaires, being a closet populare yourself, and you must admit they have the right of it. They were set upon by equites, and the imprisoned legionnaire merely defended himself.
--[] Leniency: You dock the killer's pay and rations for a month, but otherwise let him go, threatening reduced rations and a court-martial for any man who attempts to restart the matter.
--[] Reparations: You order the killer executed for treason, but dock the pay of the equites to pay for funerary arrangements and payments to the family of the dead men.
[] Court-Martial: You decide to hold a military trial consisting of yourself and the other tribunes, to properly judge the accused and hand down a lawful sentence. You are outside the walls of Rome, but there is no reason Roman laws should not stand. Technically, any sentence must be approved by Sertorius himself, but Carcellus assures you that in this matter, at least, the general will follow your recommendation.
[] Write-In:
It is perhaps two weeks after you leave Rome that Sertorius calls you to his tent. The general, a close friend of your father from youth, first offers apologies for not keeping in contact with your family since you came to the city. The Marian faction, of which he is nominally a member, is famously overzealous in it's persecution of the enemies of Marius, and even the slightest connection to a diehard Sullan like Scaevola might have spelled political (and physical) doom for Sertorius. He also offers congratulations on your rhetorical victories -- being an accomplished lawyer and jurist himself, he admits a particular interest in your legal skill, and expresses regret that you did not come to him for sponsorship rather than a Sullan.
Pleasantries aside, he confesses he has called you to him in order to provide him with advice. In Spain, he tells, you, your father was often the deciding voice in the debates he and his officers would have, and provided Sertorius with valuable insight on more than one occasion. It is his hope that the wisdom of the father remains, at least in part, in the son -- indeed, he was more than pleased to have you assigned to him as tribune for that reason alone.
Sertorius' main problem, like most in his life at the moment, stems from Marius and Cinna. While Marius marches overseas in triumph, Cinna has assumed command of Italy and ordered Sertorius to take the Sixth and deal with the Samnites once and for all.
After the Social War three years ago, in which the Italian allies of Rome fought to gain Roman citizenship, the Samnites were the only tribe to continue hostilities once the Senate caved and granted all Italians the citizenship they so desired. Indeed, for the Samnites, the Social War was merely an excuse -- they have been the arch-foes of Rome since she was a cluster of mud and brick on the banks of the Tiber. Hannibal was stronger, the Greeks were better armed, and the Gaul is fiercer still, but no enemy of Rome is so long-lived and so implacable as the Samnite. Again and again they rise up when the attention of Rome strays, and again and again they must be beat down with the sword.
Cinna has left his exact orders to Sertorius vague and unclear -- he is to 'deal' with the Samnites. But 'dealing' could mean anything -- and everything. Sertorius could break the Samnites and force them into citizenship, which, while more difficult, is likely what Cinna most desires. Or, like Sulla during the Social War, he could simply wipe out most of their offensive capabilities and cow them into being quiet for another decade.
But the last option is the most promising -- and the most excessive. He could conduct a campaign of extermination, a move supported by many in Rome. He could drive the Samnite armies into the sea, he could burn their cities and raze their towns. Their statues, their works of art, their people and their culture would be swallowed up forever by the might of Rome. Those civilians and common people left would either be sold into slavery or broken up and divided into the general Roman population -- in a word, the Samnite would share the fate of the Carthaginian and the Macedonian before him.
Most importantly, however, the Samnite lands, newly cleared, would be free for settlement by the legion, a move for which Sertorius and his supporters in Rome could lobby. If successful, it would forever tie the men of the Sixth Legion -- and their sons, and their son's sons -- to Sertorius, the great general who gave them land and wealth, providing a permanent powerbase for Sertorius, his descendants, and their allies.
[] A Social War: You urge Sertorius to go to war to bring the Samnites to heel once and for all, to force them into Roman citizenship and make them part of the Republic. This will mean a longer, more drawn out campaign, where Sertorius and yourself will have to pacify the Samnites while leaving their culture and people intact -- all to create a new voting bloc for Marius and his allies.
[] Slap Them Down: You suggest a quick, nigh-superficial campaign. You will break the Samnite armies, perhaps even wipe them out, and maybe burn a city or two to remind them of the might of Rome. You'll loot a town or twelve to satisfy the Sixth's greed, and then you and Sertorius can ride home as conquering heroes, leaving the Samnites to be someone else's problem in a generation or so.
[] Call It Peace: You advocate for a brutal and vicious campaign of extermination. The Samnites have too long been a thorn in the heel of Rome, and their destruction will win you much popular favor back home. Destroy their cities, crush their armies, and resettle their civilian population elsewhere (or simply bind them in chains), allowing you to give the newly cleared land to the soldiers of the Sixth and create an instant support base in Italia. It will be difficult -- the Samnites are fierce fighters, and will only be all the more vicious when their culture faces extinction, but the rewards are many -- loot, glory, and land.
[] Slap Them Down: You suggest a quick, nigh-superficial campaign. You will break the Samnite armies, perhaps even wipe them out, and maybe burn a city or two to remind them of the might of Rome. You'll loot a town or twelve to satisfy the Sixth's greed, and then you and Sertorius can ride home as conquering heroes, leaving the Samnites to be someone else's problem in a generation or so.
[] Call It Peace: You advocate for a brutal and vicious campaign of extermination. The Samnites have too long been a thorn in the heel of Rome, and their destruction will win you much popular favor back home. Destroy their cities, crush their armies, and resettle their civilian population elsewhere (or simply bind them in chains), allowing you to give the newly cleared land to the soldiers of the Sixth and create an instant support base in Italia. It will be difficult -- the Samnites are fierce fighters, and will only be all the more vicious when their culture faces extinction, but the rewards are many -- loot, glory, and land.
A Tribune's Duties: There are a great many things to be done in the legion, and so little time to do them in. You are a diligent and focused man, but you can only focus on a handful of the many things which require your attention. Which are they?
Pick Two
[] Training: The newest recruits are inexperienced and new to war. Luckily for them, so are you. You start a training regimen to trim the newest members of the legion into shape.
[] Coin Is Mightier Than The Sword: Due to several bureaucratic errors and omissions, a large portion of the legion hasn't received it's pay in weeks, and what they are receiving is far less than they should. You offer to intercede on their behalf, and write home to Scaevola and your allies in Rome to try and fix the issue.
[] A Law Beyond The Sword: The men often have simple issues, complaints, or grievances which they wish to address. As broad-striped tribune, it is your duty to see to these. One afternoon, you set up a table in the middle of camp and invite men to come air their grievances before you, and perhaps even raise a case against a fellow soldier.
[] Maintenance: Though it is the Camp Prefect's duty to ensure maintenance of equipment and materials, you begin to rigidly enforce the proper maintenance of personal weapons and armor. Through reduced rations and corporal punishment, you will force the men to ensure their equipment does not rust or rot.
[] Blessed By Mars: Sertorius has made clear his intentions to honor Mars as the patron of the Sixth Legion, and the nickname given to the legion, the Blessed-By-Mars, has already filled the men with a sense of pride and driven up Mars worship in the legion. You begin to enforce and codify this practice, trying to encourage commonplace worship of Mars (in his aspect as Gradivus the Soldier-God).
[] Justice Beyond The Walls: You begin cracking down on even minor offenses and crimes, making it more than clear that the rule of Rome extends far beyond the city walls. The men respect a disciplinarian -- but they will never love him.
[] The Left Hand Strays: The other tribunes are, well, a disappointment. With the exception of Rufus, they are all young men who were elected on the strength of their family names over any actual skill or worthiness they might have. You take it upon yourself to whip them into shape and make them decent extensions of Sertorius' will -- and your own.
[] Portents and Signs: You contact the Camp Augur and hold a public augury. Auguries are necessary to determine the fate of any military venture, as men are often nervous marching into battle without a sign from the gods, but if the augury is unfavorable to the campaign, the morale of the legion will be lowered.
[] Coin Is Mightier Than The Sword: Due to several bureaucratic errors and omissions, a large portion of the legion hasn't received it's pay in weeks, and what they are receiving is far less than they should. You offer to intercede on their behalf, and write home to Scaevola and your allies in Rome to try and fix the issue.
[] A Law Beyond The Sword: The men often have simple issues, complaints, or grievances which they wish to address. As broad-striped tribune, it is your duty to see to these. One afternoon, you set up a table in the middle of camp and invite men to come air their grievances before you, and perhaps even raise a case against a fellow soldier.
[] Maintenance: Though it is the Camp Prefect's duty to ensure maintenance of equipment and materials, you begin to rigidly enforce the proper maintenance of personal weapons and armor. Through reduced rations and corporal punishment, you will force the men to ensure their equipment does not rust or rot.
[] Blessed By Mars: Sertorius has made clear his intentions to honor Mars as the patron of the Sixth Legion, and the nickname given to the legion, the Blessed-By-Mars, has already filled the men with a sense of pride and driven up Mars worship in the legion. You begin to enforce and codify this practice, trying to encourage commonplace worship of Mars (in his aspect as Gradivus the Soldier-God).
[] Justice Beyond The Walls: You begin cracking down on even minor offenses and crimes, making it more than clear that the rule of Rome extends far beyond the city walls. The men respect a disciplinarian -- but they will never love him.
[] The Left Hand Strays: The other tribunes are, well, a disappointment. With the exception of Rufus, they are all young men who were elected on the strength of their family names over any actual skill or worthiness they might have. You take it upon yourself to whip them into shape and make them decent extensions of Sertorius' will -- and your own.
[] Portents and Signs: You contact the Camp Augur and hold a public augury. Auguries are necessary to determine the fate of any military venture, as men are often nervous marching into battle without a sign from the gods, but if the augury is unfavorable to the campaign, the morale of the legion will be lowered.
Personal: You have little time left for yourself -- and even then, it is not truly for yourself, as everything you do now must go to furthering your political and military career. To this end, you...
Pick Two
[] Write Home: You take the opportunity of remaining on the Italian Peninsula to write back home to your friends and allies in the city. You write to...
--[] Scaevola
--[] Cicero
--[] Atticus
--[] Proserpina
[] Brotherhood: You begin eating your meals with the men, to show them that you stand as one of them, not some aloof aristocrat.
[] The Legate: You start spending your free time with Sertorius, talking and debating with the general. A lawyer of no small skill and one of the most accomplished military minds of his day, Sertorius is a reflection of what you yourself might someday be, and making acquaintances with him could only help your status in Rome.
[] The Old Teacher: You spend time with Tercerus, listening to and absorbing everything the old man has to say about the art of running a legion and keeping soldiers in line. The armies have changed much since his day, but men are still men.
[] Sparring: You begin sparring with the men, testing your own skill with the blade against the skill of the men serving under you.
[] Silver Tongues, Silver Words: You begin to attempt to form connections with the men, walking around the camp and speaking and talking to your soldiers. With enough personal charisma and skill for speech, you can begin to make yourself as loved in their hearts as Sertorius.
[] Fortune's Favor: After camp is made for the night, several of the officers, including Carcellus, gather to gamble and game. These men are all fast friends, with ties stretching back years, but if you integrated yourself with them and got them to consider you one of them, it would go a long way towards improving your standing in the legion.
[] Study: You study the campaigns of Scipio Africanus in Carthage, hoping to learn something about defeating a hostile force in their own territory while protecting Roman interests.
--[] Scaevola
--[] Cicero
--[] Atticus
--[] Proserpina
[] Brotherhood: You begin eating your meals with the men, to show them that you stand as one of them, not some aloof aristocrat.
[] The Legate: You start spending your free time with Sertorius, talking and debating with the general. A lawyer of no small skill and one of the most accomplished military minds of his day, Sertorius is a reflection of what you yourself might someday be, and making acquaintances with him could only help your status in Rome.
[] The Old Teacher: You spend time with Tercerus, listening to and absorbing everything the old man has to say about the art of running a legion and keeping soldiers in line. The armies have changed much since his day, but men are still men.
[] Sparring: You begin sparring with the men, testing your own skill with the blade against the skill of the men serving under you.
[] Silver Tongues, Silver Words: You begin to attempt to form connections with the men, walking around the camp and speaking and talking to your soldiers. With enough personal charisma and skill for speech, you can begin to make yourself as loved in their hearts as Sertorius.
[] Fortune's Favor: After camp is made for the night, several of the officers, including Carcellus, gather to gamble and game. These men are all fast friends, with ties stretching back years, but if you integrated yourself with them and got them to consider you one of them, it would go a long way towards improving your standing in the legion.
[] Study: You study the campaigns of Scipio Africanus in Carthage, hoping to learn something about defeating a hostile force in their own territory while protecting Roman interests.
There is now a TWELVE-HOUR MORATORIUM on all votes.
Use this time to discuss the choices available and create different Plans. As previously discussed, any votes not in plan form, or submitted before the moratorium is up, will not be counted.
As always, discussion is rewarded. (As are Omakes and Reaction posts.)
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Tentative recommendations:
It sucks, but this is how the Samnites were pacified before, and this is where the greatest opportunity for glory and loot will be. OTOH, Sertorius is competent enough where 'A Social War' might actually have a chance of succeeding...
This one sucks, since it'd mean we have less of a chance to work with (and receive the love of) the common soldier. However, we're on campaign with Sertorius (!) and we brought along our extremely competent chief steward, so we should try to spend as many actions to get the most out of their presence.
The equites would probably be preferred, but a summary judgment against either group would cause problems in the camp. A public court-martial would take on the appearance of justice, and our familiarity with the law should help considerably.
If we want to gain military glory, we need to be able to win. There are a few other interesting/promising options, but I'd be inclined to prioritize improving the abilities of our Legion.
This one sucks, since it'd mean we have less of a chance to work with (and receive the love of) the common soldier. However, we're on campaign with Sertorius (!) and we brought along our extremely competent chief steward, so we should try to spend as many actions to get the most out of their presence.
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
Well, historically it appears that the Romans took option three with regard to the Samnites. Not sure if we should do the same or whether yoking them once and far all to the Republic would be more valuable. Tempted to go with razing the city that's been the most problematic and sell its population at the block, then make it clear to the remaining Samnites that they can either get in line as citizens or be put in a line as slaves.
For the discipline issue, court-martial. Why do we have the law if we don't intend to use it? And as long as we don't fuck up spectacularly, being seen to go through the forms of justice should hopefully mitigate any opposition to the verdict from outrage to grumbling.
EDIT: For our Tribune Actions, I'd go with sorting out the pay issues and beating the useless tribunes into something approaching basic competence. If possible, officially delegate Rufus to hear disputes in our stead so that we aren't seen as completely shirking a specific responsibility of our position; the fact that he's known as a brilliant legal mind should let us do so by acknowledging that he's at present just better than us at this specific task and that we appreciate his assistance freeing us up to take care of the other tasks.
For Personal Actions, learn from Sertorius and Tercerus. It's an opportunity we may not have in the future, and it should improve our abilities considerably. As far as the love of the men goes, getting their pay situation squared away should do nicely in that regard, and ultimately the way we gain their loyalty and respect is by exhibiting skill and courage on the field and not wasting the lives of our men, not by pretending to be a common soldier when both we and they know full well we aren't.
For the discipline issue, court-martial. Why do we have the law if we don't intend to use it? And as long as we don't fuck up spectacularly, being seen to go through the forms of justice should hopefully mitigate any opposition to the verdict from outrage to grumbling.
EDIT: For our Tribune Actions, I'd go with sorting out the pay issues and beating the useless tribunes into something approaching basic competence. If possible, officially delegate Rufus to hear disputes in our stead so that we aren't seen as completely shirking a specific responsibility of our position; the fact that he's known as a brilliant legal mind should let us do so by acknowledging that he's at present just better than us at this specific task and that we appreciate his assistance freeing us up to take care of the other tasks.
For Personal Actions, learn from Sertorius and Tercerus. It's an opportunity we may not have in the future, and it should improve our abilities considerably. As far as the love of the men goes, getting their pay situation squared away should do nicely in that regard, and ultimately the way we gain their loyalty and respect is by exhibiting skill and courage on the field and not wasting the lives of our men, not by pretending to be a common soldier when both we and they know full well we aren't.
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- Location
- United States
Y'know, I understand that we're Romans, and we're going to do as Romans do, but ... Christ, this is genocide. The smart, advantageous option is to commit genocide. That's a tough pill to stomach, and it makes me want to at least try to negotiate with the Sammites before we literally kill them all.
*Sigh*. Alright. Okay. Here's a reasonable compromise.
We show up, sack the biggest and baddest town, or smash their biggest baddest army, and utterly destroy them/it. Burn it down, salt the earth, execute the survivors. Then we tell the Samnites that we're going to methodically scour their land, and if we reach a settlement or a people that haven't torn down their shrines and presented their children to join the legions (we'll send them back to Rome, having them fight here is a terrible idea) we don't do the same to them. The Samnites probably won't listen, but once it becomes obvious that they're losing, it'll provide a way out so that they don't fight to the bitter end. We get land to give to our legionaries, still effectively destroy their culture and pride, and have a salve for our conscience.
*Sigh*. Alright. Okay. Here's a reasonable compromise.
We show up, sack the biggest and baddest town, or smash their biggest baddest army, and utterly destroy them/it. Burn it down, salt the earth, execute the survivors. Then we tell the Samnites that we're going to methodically scour their land, and if we reach a settlement or a people that haven't torn down their shrines and presented their children to join the legions (we'll send them back to Rome, having them fight here is a terrible idea) we don't do the same to them. The Samnites probably won't listen, but once it becomes obvious that they're losing, it'll provide a way out so that they don't fight to the bitter end. We get land to give to our legionaries, still effectively destroy their culture and pride, and have a salve for our conscience.
- Location
- Central Europe
I worry that holding a Court Martial -with the other Tribunes as jurors- could lead to an outcome we might not like. Personally I'm in favor of:
[] Side With The Legionnaires: Your heart is with the legionnaires, being a closet populare yourself, and you must admit they have the right of it. They were set upon by equites, and the imprisoned legionnaire merely defended himself.
--[] Reparations: You order the killer executed for treason, but dock the pay of the equites to pay for funerary arrangements and payments to the family of the dead men.
Training, yes! Spending time with a bunch of well connected tribunes? Meh, if we wanted to make more connections, we could have stayed in Rome. That said I'm not sure which action I would take instead.
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
The reason to train the other tribunes over training the soldiers, in my view, is that we can then have the other tribunes join in training the soldiers and thus train the ranks more effectively. Five men training a thousand men each, while not ideal, is still better than one man attempting to train five thousand men.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
WTF. Why would you do that? Do you want to commit social suicide. You would declared mad. Hell you might get prosecuted for this.
Destroying valuable Itailan lands indeed. What is next? Rape a Vestigal Virgin?
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- Location
- At your local SPCA
I'd go with Brotherhood and Study for personal options. A good leader does not hold himself or herself above their subordinates, and Scipio Africanus is probably the Greatest Roman General ever; It would be foolish not to study his Campaigns.
- Location
- At your local SPCA
"Salt the Earth"
We are Romans, not Mongols. Go make Genghis Khan quest or something.
We are Romans, not Mongols. Go make Genghis Khan quest or something.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
ANYWAY; we should just get rid of our enemies. Both history and fiction is littered with people getting destroyed by enemies they defeted but didn't destroy before.
More to point Roman do respect vicious people but would eat alive anybody who is soft enough to leave their enemies be.
So definitely destruction it is.
Also docking equates pay sounds actually relatively fair. Plus some show of Populares now might get establish our cred without being too obvious and might get soldiers to our side.
Kililng gets execution, starting a fight gets pay docked. It is pretty much done deal. Court might make us look like city boy whom hasn't learned how to be actual leader. Which involves actual hard decitions. Being seen decive is actually important.
Plus Court requares some trust between us and other Tribunes and we don't know them. they might out vote us.
Plus you know resources we can use. That is nice.
More to point Roman do respect vicious people but would eat alive anybody who is soft enough to leave their enemies be.
So definitely destruction it is.
Also docking equates pay sounds actually relatively fair. Plus some show of Populares now might get establish our cred without being too obvious and might get soldiers to our side.
Kililng gets execution, starting a fight gets pay docked. It is pretty much done deal. Court might make us look like city boy whom hasn't learned how to be actual leader. Which involves actual hard decitions. Being seen decive is actually important.
Plus Court requares some trust between us and other Tribunes and we don't know them. they might out vote us.
Modern morals would get you killed. My inner historians says people in the past was not stupid and they did decidions they made for valid reasons. And we can even see some of that. If we don't actually do it they might do it to Rome in turn.
Plus you know resources we can use. That is nice.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm pro Samnite Sack personally.
- Location
- Classified
Maybe I'm just a greedy asshole, but burning these guys down seems like the best choice. I don't follow the logic of the social war option. How would being forced into the republic by the Marian administration make them a voting bloc for Marius?
The court martial plays into our legal strengths, let's see where it goes.
Regarding the duties, the coin option is tempting, as it looks like it might be an opportunity to raise stewardship or administration. The Mars option also seems neat. The training options might be more immediately practical.
I definitely want to learn from Tereceus, it's the entire reason we brought him, and who knows when he'll die. If we go with the genocide plan, developing ties with Sertorius is a must, as he'll be gaining a lot of political power from the resettlement of the legion.
The court martial plays into our legal strengths, let's see where it goes.
Regarding the duties, the coin option is tempting, as it looks like it might be an opportunity to raise stewardship or administration. The Mars option also seems neat. The training options might be more immediately practical.
I definitely want to learn from Tereceus, it's the entire reason we brought him, and who knows when he'll die. If we go with the genocide plan, developing ties with Sertorius is a must, as he'll be gaining a lot of political power from the resettlement of the legion.
Yeah, I only thought this morning that the VI was likely to be the legion Sulla left to besiege Nola. That's a potential problem. I'm inclined to go with court martial there. There's all sort of ways the court president of a Roman trial can skew things in the direction he wants, and it would show commitment to the law rather than factionalism.
As for the Samnites, Call it Peace. It's not pleasant, but the Samnites would not still be in arms if they were in any way amenable to peace. If they wanted it, they, like the rest of Italy, would have the citizenship by now. They've been driven to their knees time and again, and always they've tried to sink their teeth in Rome's throat the instant her back was turned. Do not think for a second they would hesitate for a moment to burn Rome to the ground and piss on the ashes.
For duties, Training and Coin. The former is obvious, and the latter is massively important to the men's morale and discipline, as well as being the exactly the sort of thing we should be doing to raise our profile and start building a brand.
(Whipping our fellow tribunes into shape isn't really a priority. The high command ( Sertorius, the Prefect, and us) is competent, as are the centurions, almost by definition. The other tribunes are fairly ancillary to that command structure, and Sertorius is likely to crack down on them if they're a liability.)
For our personal time, one of the actions with Tercerus or Sertorius (I lean towards the latter) and one of Brotherhood or Silver Tongue. It's a fairly common trend among the great Roman generals of the period (even Sulla) that they are reported as associating freely with the legionaries and sharing in their cares and labours. It helps morale for them to see us pitching in, and it will help us stay on top of things like the murder incident.
As for the Samnites, Call it Peace. It's not pleasant, but the Samnites would not still be in arms if they were in any way amenable to peace. If they wanted it, they, like the rest of Italy, would have the citizenship by now. They've been driven to their knees time and again, and always they've tried to sink their teeth in Rome's throat the instant her back was turned. Do not think for a second they would hesitate for a moment to burn Rome to the ground and piss on the ashes.
For duties, Training and Coin. The former is obvious, and the latter is massively important to the men's morale and discipline, as well as being the exactly the sort of thing we should be doing to raise our profile and start building a brand.
(Whipping our fellow tribunes into shape isn't really a priority. The high command ( Sertorius, the Prefect, and us) is competent, as are the centurions, almost by definition. The other tribunes are fairly ancillary to that command structure, and Sertorius is likely to crack down on them if they're a liability.)
For our personal time, one of the actions with Tercerus or Sertorius (I lean towards the latter) and one of Brotherhood or Silver Tongue. It's a fairly common trend among the great Roman generals of the period (even Sulla) that they are reported as associating freely with the legionaries and sharing in their cares and labours. It helps morale for them to see us pitching in, and it will help us stay on top of things like the murder incident.
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Telamon
A corvid.
- Location
- Texas
Because, ironically, they hate Sulla more. He and Pompey's father tried to pull a particularly violent 'Slap Them Down' on them during the Social War. Being forced into rallying behind Marius > Having anything to do with Sulla and the son of the Butcher of Asculum (Pompey).
Of course, they're all Roman pig bastards to the Samnites, but there are varying levels of pig bastardry.
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- Location
- the netherlands
[] Slap Them Down: You suggest a quick, nigh-superficial campaign. You will break the Samnite armies, perhaps even wipe them out, and maybe burn a city or two to remind them of the might of Rome. You'll loot a town or twelve to satisfy the Sixth's greed, and then you and Sertorius can ride home as conquering heroes, leaving the Samnites to be someone else's problem in a generation or so.
This seems to be the best option for us.
This seems to be the best option for us.
I am honestly a bit torn when it comes to the first option since while I personally prefer a "fair" outcome I also think that getting on the good side of either the legionaries or the equities/young nobles might be worth it. Still considering our talents and our previous idealistic tendencies I think something like the court martial might be the best option.
For the second option it does in my opinion depend a bit on our long term plans/intentions. The last option does in my opinion bring with it the biggest personal benefits, especially if we manage to ensure that our name is connected with the land grants which shouldn't be to hard. There is also the obvious fame for being the guys who end the Samnites once and for all which would give us quite a lot of political capital besides the obvious loot etc. and it has eh "advantage" of giving us ample experience in war. If we for example plan to go the Caesar route this seems to be the ideal option (and it would also likely give us the political support of the general himself). It however would also intensify one of the more problematic developments in the late Roman Republic and carries with it some ethical issues as well as the fact that our nobilis backers might be less than impressed by this.
The second option is also quite interesting since there seem to be quite a few benefits for a quick campaign and a chance to get back into the political game/fray rather than potentially getting bogged down in a lengthy campaign while the future of Rome is decided. And it also seems to be less risky than the other two options which is certainly an argument for it since a quick victory means quick prestige and less chance of something going wrong/us getting killed.
But my personal favourite is the last option. I not only simply like the idea behind but I really think that this a perfect chance to gain some very useful experience in both the military and political area that should come very hand later on. And it would most likely also result in us gaining a considerable powerbase within the (newly "romanized") Samnites that might not be that worse than we would get from taking the settlement option. I think in respect of the "health" of the Republic and its institutions this might be the best path but it naturally mean we didn't get the chance to make some easy capital with the optimates/legionaries
For the second option it does in my opinion depend a bit on our long term plans/intentions. The last option does in my opinion bring with it the biggest personal benefits, especially if we manage to ensure that our name is connected with the land grants which shouldn't be to hard. There is also the obvious fame for being the guys who end the Samnites once and for all which would give us quite a lot of political capital besides the obvious loot etc. and it has eh "advantage" of giving us ample experience in war. If we for example plan to go the Caesar route this seems to be the ideal option (and it would also likely give us the political support of the general himself). It however would also intensify one of the more problematic developments in the late Roman Republic and carries with it some ethical issues as well as the fact that our nobilis backers might be less than impressed by this.
The second option is also quite interesting since there seem to be quite a few benefits for a quick campaign and a chance to get back into the political game/fray rather than potentially getting bogged down in a lengthy campaign while the future of Rome is decided. And it also seems to be less risky than the other two options which is certainly an argument for it since a quick victory means quick prestige and less chance of something going wrong/us getting killed.
But my personal favourite is the last option. I not only simply like the idea behind but I really think that this a perfect chance to gain some very useful experience in both the military and political area that should come very hand later on. And it would most likely also result in us gaining a considerable powerbase within the (newly "romanized") Samnites that might not be that worse than we would get from taking the settlement option. I think in respect of the "health" of the Republic and its institutions this might be the best path but it naturally mean we didn't get the chance to make some easy capital with the optimates/legionaries
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
For our various actions... Not sure what I want to do with the personal actions, or the first Tribune action, but I know what I want for the second.
[X] The Left Hand Strays: The other tribunes are, well, a disappointment. With the exception of Rufus, they are all young men who were elected on the strength of their family names over any actual skill or worthiness they might have. You take it upon yourself to whip them into shape and make them decent extensions of Sertorius' will -- and your own.
I support this. It lets us cultivate future clients, hopefully tapping us into any skills or favors they may grant us. We can also use it to turn Rufus into someone non-hopeless as a Martial figure. Which would be good, if only because his legal and political skills are useless to us if a bunch of Samnites tear his head off in the first battle. To repurpose from a poet some two thousand years in our future...
A great and glorious thing it is,
to learn, for seven years or so,
the gods know what of that and this,
'ere reckoned fit to face the foe-
the flying arrow down the Pass,
that whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."
to learn, for seven years or so,
the gods know what of that and this,
'ere reckoned fit to face the foe-
the flying arrow down the Pass,
that whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."
As for what is to be done with the Samnites...
[] A Social War: You urge Sertorius to go to war to bring the Samnites to heel once and for all, to force them into Roman citizenship and make them part of the Republic. This will mean a longer, more drawn out campaign, where Sertorius and yourself will have to pacify the Samnites while leaving their culture and people intact -- all to create a new voting bloc for Marius and his allies.
We've already agreed that the process of turning legionnaires into fanatical loyalists for successful generals is killing the Republic. Doubling down on that is bad if we want the Republic to last, and having Quintus Cingulatus promote that course of action at such a young age will shift his own views and attitudes in favor of the process that OOC we have ambitions of stopping or significantly delaying.
Furthermore, Sertorius, in our timeline, was very successful at engaging with and putting down roots among non-Romans. If anyone could turn the Samnites into semi-Romans, it would be him.
...
Then again, as devil's advocate, we could make a desert and call it peace. If so, we could participate in this process to gain power, power that would flow to Sertorius in the here and now, but which might well flow to us in the future. After all, we're something like twenty years his junior and second-in-command of his legion, and we may well be in a good position to capture Sertorius's powerbase after a hypothetical Sullan victory, where Sertorius himself is unlikely to survive Sulla's personal vendetta.
(If Marius triumphs over Sulla this becomes irrelevant. Sertorius is likely to live to a ripe old age, and dispose of his powerbase as he sees fit, though we may yet win favor with the Marians via his connections)
As for the disciplinary issue... Could go for any of these. The last two mainly differ In descending order of preference:
[] Court-Martial: You decide to hold a military trial consisting of yourself and the other tribunes, to properly judge the accused and hand down a lawful sentence. You are outside the walls of Rome, but there is no reason Roman laws should not stand. Technically, any sentence must be approved by Sertorius himself, but Carcellus assures you that in this matter, at least, the general will follow your recommendation.
We're an expert in law, we brought along one of the greatest young lawyers in Rome, we can do this. And it is very likely for us to be able to advance arguments or justifications for our decision that will make the equites unlikely to resent us, and for the legionnaires to understand why the man must be punished.
[] Side With The Equites: The equites are not only fellow nobles and optimates, they are one of the most crucial parts of the army. Angering or dissatisfying the cavalrymen could have disastrous consequences, and, besides, they are in the right. Treason is treason is treason, and Roman blood demands blood be paid in return -- Roman or no.
--[] Justice: You order the legionnaire executed, and threaten reduced rations for any legionnaire who attempts to restart the matter.
To simply declare that murder of a fellow Roman on campaign is punishable by death is simple. It has a certain stern straightforwardness. Though if we pursue this path, we should declare that if any equites is found to have provoked trouble with the legionnaires, we will punish them harshly- and carry that threat out if it becomes an issue. The only reason the victim of this murder wasn't punished for instigating a fight is because they were killed as a direct result of their own action.
[] Side With The Legionnaires: Your heart is with the legionnaires, being a closet populare yourself, and you must admit they have the right of it. They were set upon by equites, and the imprisoned legionnaire merely defended himself.
-[] Reparations: You order the killer executed for treason, but dock the pay of the equites to pay for funerary arrangements and payments to the family of the dead men.
This serves much the same effect: inform the equites that they will not be allowed to torment, harass, or oppression the legionnaires. In this instance, what the legionnaire has done means death, because murder of a brother soldier cannot be tolerated for any reason. But under no circumstances does this shield anyone from the consequences of inciting dissent within the Sixth.
Let's see if we can get the Sixth nicknamed 'Ferrata' or 'Fidelis Constans' a little early, shall we?
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My guess would be patron/client relationships and the like - there is a long tradition of the "conquering" general becoming something of a "patron" over the conquered region (at least in the early Roman republic). I mean by the simple virtue of being the guys organizing the inclusion of the Samnites into the Roman state we/the current Marian dominated leadership can ensure that it are our "supporters" that are placed in position of influence in the region.
Edit. and anyhow there is some discussion to be head how much of that loyalty would be to us instead of Marius and the general themselves.
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Raybomber
Soldier of Fortune
- Location
- Cape Town
[] Call It Peace: You advocate for a brutal and vicious campaign of extermination. The Samnites have too long been a thorn in the heel of Rome, and their destruction will win you much popular favor back home. Destroy their cities, crush their armies, and resettle their civilian population elsewhere (or simply bind them in chains), allowing you to give the newly cleared land to the soldiers of the Sixth and create an instant support base in Italia. It will be difficult -- the Samnites are fierce fighters, and will only be all the more vicious when their culture faces extinction, but the rewards are many -- loot, glory, and land.
This is the best option for us.
This is the best option for us.