Yeah, I saw that mention of fire and wondered a bit. I still feel like Sinon's internal dialogue suggest fire could be a weakness of hers, but this mention here got me thinking she may have those same elements as well - wouldn't be completely unprecedented to have a Persona that uses the element it's weak to.
Bless looks like it'd be a good bet for weakness without any hedges but "whoops" I'll take that L. But yes, the Ice weaknesses of Cats and Paladin were things I noticed during the loadout vote. Kind of fell like my original "all the guns" setup may have been better here but oh well.
I didn't even see it as a parody of the method, she's straight-up using the Evoker summoning method on instinct. Sinon's backstory and trauma is pretty heavily intermingled with death. If anything, I'd say the parody/twist to it being used here is that in Persona 3 it was more confronting mortality and using the extreme emotions involved in that to facilitate Persona summoning (I think. I swear there's like alternate explanations for "how/why do Evokers work" in both The Answer and supplemental material that while not encessarily mutually exclusive make it way more complicated than it had to be) while for Sinon it's more celebrating death. Kinda feels Strega-esque to me, at least in philosophy, though they themselves weren't using Evokers so it's not a fit in that sense. And they were more nihilistic but still.
Yeah I can see that. It's a Persona 3 summoning gone wrong but in the opposite way of Strega. Strega members were nihilists who didn't care about their lives or anyone else's but Sinon and the Laughing Coffin members clearly care a lot for their own reasons. For Sinon it seems to be based around having the power of death over others while accepting her own demise if it comes to that. Looking back at the character sheet the three core Laughing Coffin members all enjoy a specific kind of kill/murder that can be linked with death while being fine with dying themselves even if they don't run towards it like Strega does and Sterben is trying to pass their philosophy on to others and it turns out to be perfect for Persona awakening 3 style.
That makes me think, both Phil and Nyarly regularly bring up the themes of the three modern Persona games but could all three main HEAVENs line up with a previous Persona game?
ALO is 4, based on illusions and lies. ALO represents a shallow, easy fantasy to fall into that brainwashes you into thinking you're a fairy while Sugou goes as far as to create OBERON to dissociate himself from his own crimes. He then grows stronger by accepting the truth of his own wretchedness without improving morally as Adachi did.
GGO is 3, all the top GGO players are interested in courting death and the thrill of being on the edge, effectively taking SEES vow to live their lives to their fullest gone horribly wrong.
Ordinal Scale will most likely mirror 5's rebellion theme. Shigemura wants to create an ideal world where none of the SAO players died similar to Maruki's desire to create his own ideal world where nothing bad happened, describing it as his own rebellion against society like the Phantom Thieves did.
[X] Smash, Grab, and Cat.
-[X] Use Putana and the Gravity Saber to cast Collapse on the ground tearing up as much dust, dirt, and debris to obscucate yourself from both Sinon and Aimoptis.
-[X] Switch to Urashima Taro to use and attack Sinon from the side, try to position yourself around Sinon to use her as a human shield.
-[X] If this fails activate the Prayer of Menes to dogpile Sinon.
[X] You're not going anywhere
-[X] Stunt
--[X] Move forward and try to tackle Sinon to the ground-make a mess of it and either kick up a cloud of dust water or at least make it so you can pull on her hair as a legitimate attack
--[X] During the initial attempt to close the gap, channel Urashima Taro to be immune to Aimoptis' ice attacks
--[X] If Aimoptis is not deterred by dust or risk of hitting Sinon, keep channeling Urashima Taro
--[X] If Sinon breaks free and freezes the river to try and cross it, try to break the ice with Feral Claw. If not feasible, use Prayer of Menes targeting Sinon
--[X] If Sinon is not able to break free or Aimoptis is deterred by dust splashing water or risk of hitting Sinon, channel Paladin and hit her with Embracer
Yeah, I'm sure now, this is really reminding me of the JOKER Persona infection in Eternal Punishment. I wouldn't be surprised if we'll be fighting multiple Death Guns each with their own version of the Freeshooter Persona.
I might have cribbed some notes. I'm not huge on original ideas, I mostly just steal from whatever I find cool at the time. The beauties of fanfiction!
I think. I swear there's like alternate explanations for "how/why do Evokers work" in both The Answer and supplemental material that while not encessarily mutually exclusive make it way more complicated than it had to be
I'm more of an SAO scholar than a Persona one, but I did recently finish Reload and the Evoker stuff was just heightened emotions stuff, which of course does nothing explain the dog. It's super cool though, and inside the SEED Style is literally Substance.
Yeah, that's more or less the reason I hew to and I think it's the first one we get - that it's to heighten emotions and induce terror/stress from the symbolism (probably inspired by the conditions of Mitsuru's Persona Awakening as seen in The Answer.) Though I think later on (first in supplemental material but then I think Arena reiterates it) they started adding things like they contain a Plume of Dusk (fragments of Nyx that also serve as the reason why the anti-Shadow Weapons like Aigis have a psyche.)
They can both be true but it felt like they overcomplicated a matter that was really just "because it's symbolic and goes with the game's themes" by trying to provide explanations beyond the first one.
Looking at the tally, I'll never understand why SV tallies votes so weirdly. Like, My original plan is considered a separate vote from the other votes that voted for my plan?
It took me a while to realize this but the reason is that if a Plan's title does not literally begin with "Plan" it ends up splitting off like that if other users only vote for the top line and not all the subvotes exactly as written.
If you had named it "Plan You're not going anywhere" it would have kept everything together.
IF YOU HAVE SOMEHOW FOUND THIS CHAPTER BE WARNED THIS IS NON-CANON DUE TO THE RESULT OF A SYSTEM CHANGE. USE THE THREADMARKS FOR THE REVISED VERSION.
[X] You're not going anywhere
-[X] Stunt
--[X] Move forward and try to tackle Sinon to the ground-make a mess of it and either kick up a cloud of dust water or at least make it so you can pull on her hair as a legitimate attack
--[X] During the initial attempt to close the gap, channel Urashima Taro to be immune to Aimoptis' ice attacks
--[X] If Aimoptis is not deterred by dust or risk of hitting Sinon, keep channeling Urashima Taro
--[X] If Sinon breaks free and freezes the river to try and cross it, try to break the ice with Feral Claw. If not feasible, use Prayer of Menes targeting Sinon
--[X] If Sinon is not able to break free or Aimoptis is deterred by dust splashing water or risk of hitting Sinon, channel Paladin and hit her with Embracer
Bullet of Bullets - TURN 09
<ENDO: Hmm, there's something odd about this battle. Notice the mistbank, near the mountains? I believe the enemy stand is hiding in that area. I'm rather curious to know if it will show up on the Satellite Scan.>
<KOBAYASHI: Bah, mist? Nah, it's just another gas grenade. The gas meta rears its ugly head once again! NERF IT ZASKAR!>
<ENDO: It seems contestant Sinon is in a pinch! For all her new tricks she committed the cardinal sin of a sniper— letting your enemy sneak up on you! And Kuro seems more than capable of fighting in close quarters!>
It doesn't take a genius to intuit Sinon's strategy. So long as she has you in the crossfire, eventually, a stray bullet is going to wind up nailing you in a vital location. A sniper's goal was to create distance.
Which meant your goal was equally simple. Deny her that distance.
You dart forward, desperately pushing your body forward as quickly as you can. Sinon retreats in kind, splashing through the river as if it wasn't even there. You see her feet grip against the rapids without even the slightest compromise in traction, further confirming your suspicions.
Ice. She's using ice to run, leaving a trail of frost spreading in her wake. She has you pegged as a close-range specialist, and intends to separate herself from you by using the river as a buffer. The longer you play into the scenario she's set up for you, the more disadvantaged you'll be in this fight.
She's already halfway across the river by the time you reach the shoreline. You spy a small ice bridge in the wake of Sinon's advance, still solid—almost inviting you to chase her down.
You almost chase her across the bridge.
But then you remember who you're fighting.
Sinon is caught in the throes of GGO's fantasies, but that doesn't mean she's insane. The mentality of a sniper is patience, of waiting hours and days for that one perfect opportunity, that one perfect shot. The analogy is not lost on you. First, be like ice. Emotionless, logical, rational. And when the moment comes... strike as fire.
This isn't like fighting an NPC or even a braggart like XeXeeD. If Sinon's running across the ice there's something she's planning on doing with it, beyond just increasing her distance from you. There's a plan here.
A trap.
"Don't you run away from me Sinon! Can't you see you're being manipulated? This whole thing about being the real deal, it's just a dumb catchphrase, it doesn't mean anything!"
You're proven right not moments later when she stops and turns to address you in the middle of her retreat.
"It means EVERYTHING! It's about taking control of MY LIFE! Not that you would understand, Kuro. Where did your sanctimonious savior complex come from? You think you know me just because you got Endou to tattle to you!? You think you get to decide what I want to do!?" Sinon does a sudden about-face in the middle of the river, skidding along a panel of ice and drawing her sniper rifle. "I've killed before Kuro, I know what means to do what's necessary!"
"Do you think that's something to be proud of!?" you shout across the river, anger tingeing your voice despite your attempts at rationality. "You're going to let one stupid thing that you did as a kid decide who you are!?"
Sinon's eyebrows contort in frustration. "I choose to kill to do the right thing! I saved a life, I was... I was...!"
"The Real Deal? I keep hearing that over and over, what does it even mean to you Sinon!? You just want to be hero!? Because right now, you're not saving anyone. You're certainly not helping Kyouji. You're not even helping yourself! You're just acting like a rabid dog that needs to be put down!"
Sinon grits her teeth and you hear the ice crackling around her, tendrils of fury and frustration flooding outwards. "I'll prove it to you! That I need no one, that I have no fear! Listen closely Kuro, because I. Am. Going. TO KILL YOU!"
Her rifle is raised to her shoulder. Her hand grasps the bolt as the bullet line explodes out of her rifle, rapidly converging on your position at the shoreline.
What, exactly, is Sinon trying to accomplish? You ignore Sinon's words. She's lying, both to you and herself, so instead, you study her actions. She's led you to the river, and she's stopped to fire at you even when she could just blitz forward to the other side. Your choices are to give chase onto the ice that she controls, walk into her trap, or just wait by the shore and watch the sniper widen the lead.
And the longer you wait to deliberate, the more opportunities Sinon and her Persona have to turn you into a literal pincushion.
Your mind sifts through your skills, your tools— your Personas. Undine would let you swim effortlessly, but you don't have the Persona prepared. Your sponsor could burn the world once more, slagging Sinon along with the river she's hiding in... but you're hesitant to use that power on a televised broadcast. Sinon's still standing there in the middle of the river, trying to bait you into giving chase. She's being patient for one so fired up...
Patience...
That's it.
In an instant, your mind slows. All the anger and fury, the uncertainty, the frustration— it all vanishes in an instant, your field of perception spreading along with the time you're experiencing. Though it's only been seconds since the beginning of the battle Sinon appears frozen, standing atop the river, staring back at you with hateful eyes as seconds seem to stretch out into minutes.
You're thinking about this all wrong. If you can't stand still if you can't give chase...
Then why not bring her to you?
The M1 Garand materializes in a flash of blue light, but you don't hold it by the stock, nor do you point the weapon toward Sinon. For all its fame as a weapon of war, you set all that aside, choosing to reach past its history and its bloody legacy.
What you hold in your hands is just a stick.
You don't move. Patience fills your soul. Time seems to expand, and Sinon's bullet line slowly edges toward the center of your chest. You don't have to panic, you simply have to be patient.
Relax. There's no rush. There is time aplenty even in war...
To go fishing.
You cast forward the M1 Garand, an ethereal blue line unfurling from the end of your rifle. It soars through the air like a ribbon in a lazy arc, the bayonet at the end warped and bent into the shape of a hook.
"W-what the hell is that!?" Sinon says in sheer disbelief, her eyes leaving the scope of her rifle to contemplate the madness of a fishing lure soaring toward her. Time twists forward in a snap, and just like that, everything is moving again. Sinon's grip remains steady, already committed to her actions. Her index finger gently squeezes the trigger.
*CRACK*
Her rifle goes off. In the middle of casting the line, you hear it— the explosion of gases from her barrel, the supersonic shockwave from a bullet, traveling faster than the speed of sound...
*SPLASH*
...drowned out by the ensuing splash from your line wrapping around Sinon's arm and falling into the water. Her bullet went so wide you don't even bother moving from your position. Sinon is too stunned to react, gawking at the fishing line attached to her shoulder.
"How...!?" Before she can understand what's happened your grip tightens, the aura of Urashima Taro manifesting once more. Sinon's body ignites in a similar glow, and a sudden instinct makes her seize the line, desperate to untangle herself from your trap.
No matter. With a single swing, you yank on the line. Sinon, already halfway between footing on a platform of ice and your position across the river, is launched through the air like a marionette on a tether.
But you've underestimated her strength. Water sprays through the air as she bounces across the river like skipping stones, her grip on your fishing line so firm you're one-half step away from falling into the rapids. You widen your stance, focus your core—
"Nngh!?"
Sinon slams into you, the sheer force of impact blowing you back into the muddy shoreline. Sino flails, squirming in your grip like a fish out of water, her voice a shriek of incoherent rage.
"Let... go! LET GO!"
Sinon screams again, but this time there's a note of desperation to it. Limbs go flying, none even close to damaging you, and you see your hook dig deeper into Sinon's skin as she struggles further, the motion only serving to entangle her. You try to reach for your Gravity Saber but Sinon crowds into your space, blind, heedless, wailing in impotent anger.
"Damn...it...!" Sinon's knee comes down directly into your abdomen, almost winding you. You reach out and seize the hook and score a small cut against her arm.
"You think I don't have things I'd rather be doing right now Sinon!? You're being used! This mad obsession with strength, it isn't you—"
"This is who I want to be!" Shino roars, her voice ringing across the riverbank. She goes limp in your grasp, glaring at you with angry eyes. "Do you have any idea what it's like to feel trapped and helpless!? You've got everything— you don't care what anyone thinks, even the teachers look the other way for you! E-everyone in school, they fear you, because they know that you're strong! You think that you can just waltz in and—"
"I DO!" You scream back, your throat feeling like sandpaper. The words are out of your mouth before you can stop them, the pain in your chest more than a stray bullet. "You think I'm strong!? You think I'm free!? You think I want to be here!?"
The entire battlefield seems to silence at your words, "I'm not strong. I-I feel like I'm just a puppet, going through the motions. But I'm getting better. I'm trying. I'm...!"
Sinon doesn't respond, instead tackling you headlong, the two of you crashing down into the riverbed. Even with her strength, you have all the leverage. Her sniper rifle is discarded along the mud-caked dirt, still within arm's reach.
"I am going to kill everyone in GGO," Sinon repeats through grit teeth, "I will get strong enough that no one can hurt me. That no one will need to save me!"
"You're not going to do a thing!" you angrily reply, grabbing at the threads of your fishing line. "I'm going to wake you up, Sinon! This isn't strength, it's just a fantasy!"
"SHUT UP! This is my world, Kuro! You won't take it away from me, do you hear me!? I will kill you, no matter what I have to sacrifice! AIMOPOTIS!"
A distant screech— ice scratching against cold steel. A sound like a dying animal shrieks from behind the cloudbank far in the distance. Glowing red eyes peak through the mist, and you see the bullet line erupt from the clouds behind your position. Sinon doesn't try to dodge. Instead, she turns on you, gripping your arms with a vice-like strength. She's not trying to dodge, no, she's committed to the exact opposite. She'll take you both out in the process, a kill accompanied by a self-destruct.
Is this truly the vision of strength Sinon is seeking? This suicidal dedication to victory, no matter the cost?
Sinon's smiling. It's not one of joy nor satisfaction, but a rabid, haunting snarl. The bullet line intersects her body, spilling forward and entering into your torso. Victory at any cost. You don't waste time thinking. You seize Sinon and spin around, dragging her out to your front and out of the path of her own bullet. It's too late to dodge, but if it's the same attack then—
The frigid air washes over you, but you feel no cold. The bullet of ice impacts against your back with the full force of an anti-material rifle, yet the bullet wasn't formed from metal but crystallized pure ice. It impacts you, shattering against your clothes and dispersing into fragments as your Persona completely dissipates the power of the attack.
"W-what the hell..."
The ice cracks and shatters, exploding outwards from your skin as Sinon gives you a slack-jawed expression. You step forward, and she steps back, grasping at your fishing line and trying desperately to regain control of her footing.
"I said you're not getting away," you begin, slowly advancing. "And that means you're not throwing your life away either. I don't win by killing you Sinon. I win I make you realize how sick this game is making you. This... all this? This isn't strength. This doesn't matter. Wake up, Shino Asada!"
Sinon struggles furiously, kicking and squirming. Though the ice failed to harm you, it's slowing you down, and you're losing your grip on Sinon's restraints. This is getting you nowhere, all you've managed is to entangle her, and now you have to force her to stop and listen to you.
Urashima was able to catch Sinon, but you'll need another power to secure the capture. If this mask wasn't cutting it, then simply discard it and select a new one and let it guide your actions.
Ah. So that's how you do it.
"Friend, this will go a lot smoother if you'd simmer down."
Sinon's wild flailing suddenly seems predictable, a crook caught in your grasp. All that's left is the string her up and prevent her from fighting. Your grip relaxes slightly, and when Sinon begins to yank away, you seize the loose fishing line still half entangled around her arms. With a flick of your wrists and the practiced motion of a knot you've tied a hundred times, the line is wrapped around her arms in a solid cuff you know from experience she's no hope in hell of breaking out of.
"N—not yet. I'm..."
"You're finished. Now pipe down and reflect on your behavior," you say, reaching down to restrain her ankles—
Only for the broad to nail you in the jaw with her heel.
Well. Not how it usually goes down.
She wiggles out of your grasp, hobbling down towards the river with her arms still restrained in your fishing line. Tch, always gotta make things so complicated.
You snap out a quick shot with your trusty revolver, aiming for the leg, but the bullet bounces off her body armor. Your feet blur forward as you reach out with a bare fist—
Only to retreat at the last minute, with the crack of an anti-material rifle creating a geyser of mud in the spot you'd just stood. Damnit, that villain in the back's just going to keep harassing you!
You stop and take stock of the situation. Sinon's effectively disarmed, but there's little stopping her from running away into the river— or worse yet, into the path of another combatant. Did you have no choice but to chase her into the river, trap be damned?
Or... you could take the fight to range.
Because right there, half buried in muck and river water, you can see a gun. Discarded in the melee after your fishing line took Sinon off guard, the momentary disturbance enough to knock it out of her hands.
...well, you know what they say about the right tool for the right job.
Mud be damned, you scoop up Sinon's rifle and give it an appraising look. Good news, Sinon may be crazy but she's thorough and kept the weapon in working condition. The rifle is undamaged and, from what you can tell, in working condition, though who's to say if mud got trapped in the internals?
Sinon moves into the river, freezing the ground underneath her!
Sinon fires her rifle!
7 Accuracy - 1 (System Crash) / DISADVANTAGE vs Pierce
Sinon rolls 7d6e6 = 6⊕ 5 2 2 5 4 2 → 1 success against 6
Kuro rolls rolls 8d6e5 = 6⊕ 6⊕ 4 4 3 6⊕ 4 2 → 3 successes against 5 No Damage
Kuro stays at the water's edge and tries to restrain Sinon.
Contested STR
Kuro rolls 4d6e5 = 3 3 1 6⊕ → 1 success against 5
Sinon rolls 5d6e5 = 6⊕ 2 1 3 2 → 1 success against 5 Tie, Sinon is latched on and reeled back to shore but is not fully restrained
Sinon loses her AGI bonus
Opportunistic Melee attacks (3 Accuracy from Garand + 4 STR)
Kuro rolls 7d6e5 = 5⊕ 6⊕ 5⊕ 4 1 6⊕ 2 → 4 successes against 5
Sinon defends with VIT (4 VIT + 1 RD)
Sinon rolls 5d6e5 = 5⊕ 1 5⊕ 2 6⊕ → 3 successes against 5 Sinon suffers 1 DAMAGE
Aimopotis attacks you and Sinon with Ice Bullet.
Kuro is IMMUNE to ICE!
Sinon is RESISTANT to ICE!
Aimopotis rolls 6d6e6 = 1 2 2 3 5 2 → 0 successes against 6 Sinon is not aware you are immune to ICE!
Turn 10
Kuro switches to Paladin!
Kuro tries to hogtie Sinon! Roll STR with ADVANTAGE!
Kuro rolls 4d6e4 = 3 5⊕ 3 6⊕ → 2 successes against 4
Sinon rolls STR to escape
Sinon rolls 5d6e5 = 5⊕ 2 3 6⊕ 5⊕ → 3 successes against 5 Sinon is not hogtied and manages to escape, moving into the river!
Free Shot from Overwatch!
3 Accuracy + 1 Pistol Training
Kuro rolls 4d6e5 = 5⊕ 3 5⊕ 2 → 2 successes against 5
Sinon defends rolls 5d6e5 = 6⊕ 4 6⊕ 3 4 → 2 successes against 5 Your reaction fire fails to connect!
Kuro moves forward and attempts to attack with Embracer!
You strike with DISADVANTAGE as melee is not within range of your pistol!
You strike with ADVANTAGE due to Embracer!
Kuro rolls 4d6e5 = 2 1 4 4 → 0 successes against 5 You failed to connect!
Aimopotis repositions slightly closer
Aimopotis fires a normal bullet
4 Accuracy - 1 System Crash
Aimopotis rolls 3d6e5 = 4 6⊕ 5⊕ → 2 successes against 5
Kuro rolls 4d6e5 = 6⊕ 5⊕ 3 4 → 2 successes against 5 The bullet misses but impacts close!
<ENDO: And the combat is heating up! Kuro capitalizes on Sinon's positioning by hitting her with a grapple gun! We've heard rumors of the «Ultimate Fiber Gun» now dropping from Flugel mobs. Could Kuro have chanced upon this most rare of weapons?>
<KOBAYASHI: Ah, I dunno. She appeared to fire it out of her Garand. Like props to her for actually buying that ol' hunk of junk, but what's the point of bringing antiques to the to a gunfight? Something smells fishy, and it's not just all the fishing metaphors...>
<ENDO: But contestant Sinon remains on the ropes! She's lost her sniper rifle, and seems to be retreating back towards the river. She keeps trying to lure Kuro into the depths, but will she take the bait!? Though Sinon is disarmed, the longer this fight goes on the more likely her mysterious ally in the mist will score a killing blow!>
<KOBAYASHI: The excitement builds! Can Sinon turn this around? Or will Kuro manage to catch up to her? Or will Kuro, having disabled Sinon, turn around and confront the mysterious one in the back?>
<ENDO: Ah, but let's not forget the rest of the map! Ritchie the Camp— er, Lion King, has secured another kill from his perch. A moment of reflection for Blackwood, taken from us too soon! And oh, another exciting battle just meters away from Sinon and Kuro's duel— it's Dyne and Pale Rider, contesting control of the bridge!>
<KOBAYASHI: And over to the east XeXeeD's finished off another challenger. What's this? Contestant Jack Reacher has 'reached'—>
<ENDO: You did that on purpose.>
<KOBAYASHI: Teehee. Anyways, XeXeeD's started to deploy traps all over the forest! Jack Reacher appears to be using an invisibility cloak— what a cheapskate— but XeXeeD seems prepared with his endless rain of chaff grenades.>
<ENDO: Whoa. Are you seeing this? There's not one shimmer, but two!? Is there another player with an invisibility cloak!?>
<KOBAYASHI: What did I tell you!? First it was the smoke meta and now it's the invisibility meta! Nerf it ZASKAR! 300k yen is too cheap for this level of bullshit!>
NEW!
PGM Mini-Hecate .338 [MODERN/PIERCE]
Weight: 5
Accuracy: 7
Persona: Archon
Range: [-][-][ ][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]
[Heavy Metal 3]: This weapon does +3 Damage upon hit.
IMPORTANT RESOURCES
DETERMINATION: 20
MISTCOIN: 2
CATS OF ULTHAR : 2 Currently Spawned (VERY FAR away, but can teleport with certain abilities)
You have stolen Sinon's weapon. It will be returned at the end of combat as per the rules of the tournament, but for now you can use it outside of the usual weight requirements.
Sinon appears moderately damaged.
Sinon hands have been handcuffed! She is denied AGI and cannot draw a weapon!
Death Gun Aimopotis has manifested behind you, and is currently wielding the PGM Hecate Anti-Material Rifle!
Sinon's current Hawkeye bonus: +0 (Ie, tumbling in melee is not maintaining LOS and focusing)
Sinon appears to manipulate the ICE element!
Death Gun Aimopotis appears to manipulate the ICE element!
[Hawkeye]: So long as you maintain a direct line of sight with your target, gain +2 Accuracy per turn. All bonuses are reset if you break line of sight.
«Real Deal: Aspirant»: You understand life is nothing more than meat, blood and bone. +1 DICE on all rolls in combat against opponents who do not possess any variation of the «Real Deal» trait.
[Duck and Dash 1]: You may choose to DASH during combat, surrendering safety for speed. Thus turn Movement is increased by +2 but you cannot otherwise act or fire your weapon. Enemy OVERWATCH and other forms of reactionary fire attacks with ADVANTAGE if triggered by your dash.
K = KURO's position [16/16 HP] [3/10 SP]
DR = SINON's position [5 DAMAGE accumulated] [Currently in the river]
A = Aimopotis's position
R = RIVER terrain (cannot cross unless frozen or flown over).
Currently, the RIVER is frozen in a small area around Sinon's position
Order of Operations:
1d6 + AGI to roll initiative.
First on initiative MOVES and FIRES. Then everyone takes turns.
Then the turn repeats.
TWO TURNS WILL BE SIMULATED
DO YOU ATTEMPT TO ENGAGE IN DIPLOMACY? [Free Combat Banter]
[ ] Try to talk to Sinon. WRITE-IN speech.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
[ ] Retreat Turn 1 and 2: Urmetazoan > use EVADE and start moving backwards towards Aimopotis
[ ] Maximum Cat Turn 1 and 2: Cats of Ulthar > Spend 3D to Summon Cat x 3 > Spend 5D to Prayer of Menes
Cast All Abilities on Aimopotis, and attempt to move closer to Aimopotis every turn
[ ] Defensive Rush Turn 1 and 2: Urashima > Vorpal Blade > Vorpal Blade
Cast All Abilities of Sinon, and attempt to move closer to Sinon every turn through the river
[ ] Countersniping Turn 1 and 2: Fire back at Sinon with her own rifle from the shoreline using regular bullets
Maintain optimal distance
[ ] Speedtuning Turn 1 and 2: Mithras > Masukukaja > Tarukaja
Attempt to move closer to Sinon every turn
[ ] Free Command
-Write in what you want to do!
(Remember you can still EVADE!)
[ ] STUNT [5 DETERMINATION+]
Do something outside the rules and perform a *COMPLEX* write-in option. Do something unexpected that's BEYOND just talking to your opponent or directing your party members!
AN: Not sure about how to interpret the write in given all the conditionals. Sinon's able to partly break free, so not sure if Paladin or Cats applies, so I just defaulted to using Paladin. My read is that the first part of the write in was to restrain Sinon. The second part is confusing to me, so I just extrapolated from the start and had you try (and fail) to hogtie Sinon, leading to her making a break for the river.
Well, we have a sniper rifle in hand now. It hits like a truck, and has 7 accuracy, so odds are good we could score a hit on Aimopotis with it. However, it has Archon equipped. Does that mean normal shots will accumulate stress, or just persona skills?
With her hands tied and her rifle stolen, Sinon's primary advantage - her range - is gone. The only weapon she has left is that Black Star, and I don't like that Aimopotis' bullet counter is still going up.
[X][PLAN] Countersniping - Aimopotis
-[X] Back away one space to get out of range of the Black Star.
-[X] Take two shots at Aimopotis with Sinon's sniper rifle.
Well, not great in terms of damage dealt, but at least we didn't take any damage in the process. Should have been more specific for the second part of my plan...
Also, we've made a critical error: Cats of Ulthar is STR focused, but Optical weapons don't add their Accuracy to STR attacks. Cats of Ulthar is loaded in an OPTICAL pistol and has no MAG attacks. Also, Cats of Ulthar is not just weak to ice, but also pierce, which means that ALL of Aimpotis' attacks against us will be made with advantage if we use Cats of Ulthar against Sinon at any point. Remind me again why we rejected the one plan that takes the Nambu Cosmo Navy?
[X] Plan: If it seems dumb but works, it's not dumb
-[X] Free Command
--[X] Turn 1 and 2: Collapse (Putana) within melee range. If Sinon is not in melee range but still within range of the Gravity Saber, Eiha
--[X] If Sinon has moved out of range of the Gravity Saber: fire a normal shot with the Mini-Hecate
We'll probably take a little (or a lot of) damage on account of Putana's shit AGI, but we need to finish this quickly, and Collapse is easily our most damaging move available right now. However, this hinges on if I'm interpreting Sinon being 'denied AGI' correctly. Does this mean that she can't move at all, or just doesn't add her AGI to her defense rolls?
Also the reason for the Eiha contingency is how Gravity Saber works: the way it's worded, it's considered a melee weapon in melee range, but an optical weapon out of melee range. So, in melee, the Gravity Saber would add its Accuracy to Putana's STR, but ONLY in melee range. Beyond that, we'd be better off using Eiha since Optical weapons add their Accuracy to Magic attacks.
Also, we've made a critical error: Cats of Ulthar is STR focused, but Optical weapons don't add their Accuracy to STR attacks. Cats of Ulthar is loaded in an OPTICAL pistol and has no MAG attacks. Also, Cats of Ulthar is not just weak to ice, but also pierce, which means that ALL of Aimpotis' attacks against us will be made with advantage if we use Cats of Ulthar against Sinon at any point. Remind me again why we rejected the one plan that takes the Nambu Cosmo Navy?
Not really an error? Having realized that Cats of Ulthar was weak to Ice AND Pierce I was extremely loathe to take it. Indeed, I simply dropped it when I initially slimmed down the plan under the working theory of "only 5 guns/Persona" when it was later revealed that actually more was fine I simply threw it back in because there was a talk about wanting to use Cats. Rather than argue the point over weaknesses, which was still just speculation at that point regardless of my high degree of confidence in it, I tossed it back in for the sake of those who wanted the option. However, because I was aware of the weakness issue the only purpose I saw in it was Prayer of Menes which does not rely on dice rolls whatsoever (the Cats themselves have their own stat blocks) so as far as I was concerned it did not matter what it was equipped to so I placed it on the highest accuracy gun we had left.
To continue on to the Nambu Cosmo Navy this was more a weight consideration and one where I'll concede that depending on where you fall on the value of an Optical Shield in this encounter I'll take blame for it. Undine could use it at 0 weight but Undine also has a Pierce weakness and that was the one weakness we absolutely knew Sinon had multiple sources of so again, in terms of dropping guns/Persona I made that judgment call. Yeah, ice immunity but we had that niche covered already and Undine's actual skills looked unlikely to be useful because outside Garu it was either Ice (which Sinon could be reasonably expected to be resistant to - and it turns out she is. Plus the attack itself is made at disadvantage) or status effects which would cost SP that we already started 50% at. Urvashi was an option, sure, but you'd have to drop the Optical Shield whereas I wanted it around in case her Persona might do damage it could mitigate - whether that's true or not we don't know since it has failed to hit us so far. Looking at Urvashi's skills it's basically Zio or Status Effects... and by taking Mithras Liturgy with the X-CALIBUR we get Garu AND Zio (so both elements Undine and Urvashi could have provided) on a Persona that resisted Pierce which just seemed like the outright superior option in terms of inventory management.
I mean, you can just ask me why I made certain decisions! I usually try to explain them while I'm making the plan but I generally have a reason for what I'm doing! Not that you have to agree that my reasoning is good, mind you, but what you're describing wasn't something I saw as a tactical error but a strategic consideration. I will concede that I could have added a bunch more guns similar to the original plan once we were told that 5 wasn't a hard limit but I generally agreed with the sentiment that it was a bit much to be taking all that.
[X][PLAN] Countersniping - Aimopotis
Making a mid-battle reversal here based on the narrative. While my inital strategy was to defeat Sinon it kinda sounds like doing that at this point would partially validate her ideology here about strength and the "Real Deal" based on what Hiyori was saying this update. So I'll agree to taking care of her Persona before we find out what the seventh bullet does.
[X] Plan: If it seems dumb but works, it's not dumb
-[X] Free Command
--[X] Turn 1 and 2: Collapse (Putana) within melee range. If Sinon is not in melee range but still within range of the Gravity Saber, Eiha
--[X] If Sinon has moved out of range of the Gravity Saber: fire a normal shot with the Mini-Hecate
Aimopotis is just a Stand and Sinon has lost almost all her advantages and is a borderline sitting duck. We need to crush her at full power and destroy her delusions. We've tried reason and logic so many times and it's always failed. So I think it's best to do the shonen protagonist approach and go for defeat means friendship. Or more cynically we'll take Sinon's belief and crush it under the weight of reality. Show her how worthless an ideal the Real Deal is that no matter how much she believes being a murderhobo will make her feel strong and safe it in the end means nothing in the face of our power. More importantly, as I've said before Sinon's mindset reminds me of people like Ainz and Sugou and the only way you make people like them listen is by crushing their delusions.
And on the practical side of things even if this doesn't work we can still turn around and use Hecate on Aimpotis next round since the number will only go up to five.
We need to crush her at full power and destroy her delusions. We've tried reason and logic so many times and it's always failed. So I think it's best to do the shonen protagonist approach and go for defeat means friendship.
I mean, this was my starting position - to the point where I was busting out Ragnarok to leave absolutely no doubt what the score was.
...But Hiyori seems to disagree as of the last update.
"I said you're not getting away," you begin, slowly advancing. "And that means you're not throwing your life away either. I don't win by killing you Sinon. I win I make you realize how sick this game is making you. This... all this? This isn't strength. This doesn't matter. Wake up, Shino Asada!"
I'm also not sure defeating Aimopotis will be a one turn affair so waiting until the counter is at 5 to engage seems a bit risky if we're forced into that spot. If it has initiative and moves first we get a single shot at it before it fires the seventh bullet. What if we just flub the roll and miss?
For Nephren-Ka that's the boss-man's power not ours. Both practically and ideologically bringing out him or Archon means our powers not enough. On top of Sinon ultimately being round 1 in all this.
I'm also not sure defeating Aimopotis will be a one turn affair so waiting until the counter is at 5 to engage seems a bit risky if we're forced into that spot. If it has initiative and moves first we get a single shot at it before it fires the seventh bullet. What if we just flub the roll and miss?
I had the same line of thought here but came to a different conclusion. Sinon has made the Real Deal stuff utterly sacrosanct. She has rationalized that it will always give her the solution or strength to handle any situation she gets herself into so we show her that she's wrong. The Real Deal won't save her. It can't even beat someone who refuses it wholeheartedly.
[X] Plan: If it seems dumb but works, it's not dumb
And now, for some words...
[X] Speak your own damn mind!
-[X] "...the old you knew more about death than as you are right now. It understood why not follow this path, the weight behind the act!"
-[X] "What you say right now...they are HIS words! Not the words of Asada Shino, not the words of Sinon, it's the words of Death Gun, of that MAN! What I see now is someone blinding herself to truth, wanting to escape the pain of 'being good' and to become the monster people think you are!"
-[X] "Mouth off all you want about power, death, all this bullshit, I don't fucking care! But SAY IT FROM THE HEART, YOU IDIOT!"
Hello, this is your QM here. Not gonna drop the quest or anything. There will be at least a week long hiatus, I just moved and I now have no wifi until end of March. My cellular internet works but I am not going to torture myself by typing an update on my goddamn cell phone.
BUT! I'm gonna be real. I don't think Persona Heaven can continue as it is. A failure to plan has caused issues to compound in this quest, and I think change is in order. I'd like to pre mortem my own quest and ask for suggestions on what to change before things get too out of control.
So first off, let me say what I like about my own quest, and what I do not wish to change. First I... think I'm a halfway decent plotter. Persona Heaven it's building towards an ending. I'm done being coy, so I'll go out and say it. The initial plan is ALO > GGO > The summer vacation Ordinal Scale arc > Alicization > Ultimate Showdown arc. I'm trying to seed the conflicts of every arc, and I am excited about so many future events (ALICIZATION FINAL BOSS HAS ME FROTHING AT THE MOUTH EVERY DELAYED UPDATE IS DUE TO THE QM FANTASIZING ABOUT THIS FIGHT INSTEAD OF WRITING THE UPDATE). I don't want to change the core story because the story part is my baby.
I enjoy the social link system. I like imaging what kind of life the various isekai protags would've lived if not for truck kun. I like picking out new Personas, I really like the psychopomp arguments. I was sitting on the Argo SL for like a year and I was beyond excited when it was finally chosen.
I am... ambivalent about the schedule. I think I underestimated how everyone would just action spam. It is in hindsight something I should've seen coming from a mile away. But it's not as if I don't have levers to pull too, between exam weeks and mandatory events. (Expect a Typhoon)
But the thing is the schedule has slowed to a crawl. We've been in May for a whole year, and I think I have to be more limiting with actions. Full stop, I want to pick up the pace. I was hesitant to increase action cost, because I didn't want it to seem like a punishment, but I really think going forward action costs need to increase.
Then there's that I don't think works. Stuff I don't even like writing. I don't think it should come as a surprise.
It's combat.
I dunno what my readers think. But I think my combat system is a bag of turd in a tire fire.
I thought ALO was crap so I resolved to change in GGO. And I decided to... make it more complicated. Because I thought that would be more fun for both me and the readers.
It was a very stupid idea. It is not more fun and it's too fiddly for its own good.
Lemme tell you how the sausage is made. I have an overwhelmingly large amount of notes on the lot. I have hundreds of Personas sitting on a text file. I have plans and shit.
The combat stats? I like pull them from a hat like seconds before I roll. =/
I think I've forgotten so many little bonuses here and there.
Half the time I'm not even sure how mechanics should resolve.
So then that begs the obvious question? Why have dice at all? Why not go pure narrative?
And to me there's a philosophical answer.
I need a system where losing is possible, and I need something to excuse setbacks.
Let me elaborate. My Magic system is an unholy fusion between mostly Persona 2 and SAO Alicization. Narratively my magic system is so unbelievably soft it makes Harry Potter seem like a Sanderson novel. I like this, it's intentional and ties in with the themes...
But it leads to problems with conflict resolution. Because there's no real guardrails in place in my magic system about what is or is not possible.
Let me use an example. Hama. Hama is explicitly a force logout spell. In a mechanics game you roll, simple, understandable. Prone to failure, a risk to be sure. But what about pure narrative? What can I say to a plan that says: 'use Hama'?
As the QM, I have full control over the scenario. I can just say, Hama didn't work. The answer to 'why not?' will be full of flowery language that will boil down to QM Fiat. At which point it won't be much of a quest anymore.
To rephrase if something cool happens because players manipulate mechanics in a complex way that's win win. I get to write something cool, QM fiat doesn't have to apply. When mechanics fail, I can write drama and there's a clear reason a failure occurs through the almighty dice, not just through QM fiat. There's an element of outsmarting the QM too. If the players out smart me they should be rewarded. In a pure narrative quest where resolution is PURELY by fiat that won't be possible.
Hence I decided to add the dreadful numbers to the equation. But uh... I'm not so good with numbers. For example, in GGO, you'll note it's harder to things. Why?
Because when I was stating out the guns I thought to myself, 'what would I pick'?
And the answer I came up with was to load Alice into the ARASAKA and vaporize everything with a giant pile of dice. Because dice pool gives you accuracy and power. I was afraid the dominant strategy would be to accumulate as much dice as possible, so I decided to balance enemy defense with that in mind.
But currently you're building wide.
End result? Kuro can't hit anything.
And I can go 'lol stupid, now lose the next 5 fights' but that's not fun for me or the players. Because I'm not proud of my mechanics, because I don't even find it engaging. It reflects more on my crap design skills than on poor player judgment. Like if players screw up a NARRATIVE choice, I'm an happy and eager to let bad things happen, because I'm proud off the narrative, and it's fun for me to write drama.
I've been thinking a lot about this. Where do you all want this to go? I can think of a few options top of my head.
NEUTRAL) Rebalance and continue. I'll probably shift defenses and accuracy bonuses. Things will get heavier. But the roots stay the same.
LAW) SIMPLIFY. Go back to an ALO system. Kill distance, kill initiative, just simplify guns down to 1 gun per Persona.
CHAOS) NUKE IT. Just... kill all the numbers. Pure Narrative with an increased focus on using Determination as the determinant for combat resolution. But we will have to accept QM fiat, especially for losing.
Or something else entirely?
And let me say this, if you've read this far. I think I like writing quests. A regular fanfic would not motivate me, nor do I want to write one. I enjoy reading player speculations and participation. I also want to get better, and my philosophy for getting better, at almost anything, is to dive head first into the deep end.
I like big unweildy crossovers because it's fun to worldbuild and more importantly challenging. I thought I wanted complex mechanics for much of the same reason, but I just don't think it's working. I've been contemplating a super mechanics driven pokemon quest to force me to learn how to do mechanics right in like the one system I actuality have some knowledge in.
But I don't want to experiment with this quest, not after this long.
So anyways, thanks for listening to my TED talk. There is no vote, just... I'd like to hear thoughts and suggestions going forward. Especially about mechanics, but frankly anything about the quest you suggest changing.
Is fine man, is understandable. You are doing a fine job and making these kinds of question does help a ton. I do think maybe a Neutral combined with a bit of Chaos could work. There is the thing to find something you like and are confortable with.
I, unfortunately, am not knowledgeable enough to give a more reasonable option so I will see what others say.
Either way, don't fear! There is always a solution!
But the thing is the schedule has slowed to a crawl. We've been in May for a whole year, and I think I have to be more limiting with actions. Full stop, I want to pick up the pace. I was hesitant to increase action cost, because I didn't want it to seem like a punishment, but I really think going forward action costs need to increase.
Reducing daily life action count is totally something I can understand as beneficial.
One of the quests that I read on SB, My Huntsman Academia, has 7 actions per chunk of time, with 3 chunks per week, with the QM splitting each social action into 3 different paragraphs and grouping multiple paragraphs into a post.
While the density of the actions in Gorilla_Finger's quests can lead to lots of running jokes and deeper discussions at times, his timeline got bogged down *very* quickly, and made a lot of filler conversations that I skim over.
If you want to tighten up the schedule so that stuff moves on quicker, I would encourage doing so.
I dunno what my readers think. But I think my combat system is a bag of turd in a tire fire.
I thought ALO was crap so I resolved to change in GGO. And I decided to... make it more complicated. Because I thought that would be more fun for both me and the readers.
It was a very stupid idea. It is not more fun and it's too fiddly for its own good.
I agree on the point that making systems more complicated does not necessarily mean making them good systems.
Trust me - I write code for a living. I feel this every day. A key part of making a easily utilized, highly effective app is in asking " how can I make common work easier and faster to do?" Or "How can I make it clear what the user is supposed to click on?"
Having four tabs open (Current chapter, Persona Compendium, Lux Character Sheet & Armory, Sinon Character Sheet ) makes it rather frustrating and difficult to write and review plans, since we have to factor in our guns *and* which persona is in them, rather than one or the other.
Would it be a cool as hell system for customizing play style in a genuine video game? Absolutely. But those games have computer processing to handle the math and graphics - quests don't.
With all that said, SIMPLIFYing the combat mechanics down would be a good idea, imo. Distance and gun choice should be more narrative focused. Start each round with Kuro's turn, rather than use initiative, and just keep the scene moving until a major tactical decision is required.
Because when I was stating out the guns I thought to myself, 'what would I pick'?
And the answer I came up with was to load Alice into the ARASAKA and vaporize everything with a giant pile of dice. Because dice pool gives you accuracy and power. I was afraid the dominant strategy would be to accumulate as much dice as possible, so I decided to balance enemy defense with that in mind.
The power of the wild card comes in it's versatility in combat and ability to change it up on the fly when shit inevitably hits the fan. Building wide is something the Persona games naturally pressure to ensure elemental coverage and resistances, and that gameplay loop naturally trickles down into quester mindset. For example, if we built tall with Paladin or Cats as our only persona or two, the moment we met Sinon we would have been *screwed*. But, the wild card has let us turn a battle that we would have certainly lost into one where the odds are feasible but not in our favor.
Therefore, I do think that expecting Kuro to *not* build wide when the franchise heavily encourages doing so, was a mistake.
The combat stats? I like pull them from a hat like seconds before I roll. =/
I think I've forgotten so many little bonuses here and there.
Half the time I'm not even sure how mechanics should resolve.
Pulling shit out of your ass is part and parcel of being a QM. There isn't a QM or DM Alive that hasn't had to improvise. If the players are having a good time and don't notice a mistake, keep moving and grooving. Don't give up the momentum.
One way I've seen of combat occurring is that players can write in a very general combat plan, with no specific focus on turn order or mechanical positioning. In MHA, G_F takes this approach, letting players write in a general plan and narrative idea, while he fleshes it out by deciding what actions would make sense for X character to take, based on the plan, rule of cool, and character knowledge.
Action continues until a moment where the change in fight progression may go occurs.
For example, Izuku is starting a fight with goon squad A, while his team deals with goon squad B, and another team deals with Goon Squad C.
Voters decide on a general approach - for Izuku to use kung-fu to deal with an enemy squad, and to use his semblance to close the gap between enemies if they are narratively too far.
Dice are rolled and rule of cool is applied. Combat and the scene continues until a tactical decision is required, such as :
A) Izuku has defeated his squad of enemies, but is a bit banged up. Does Izuku immediately go to aid his team or the other team? Retreat and reload before rejoining the fray? Does he crush the goon's flank in a swift blow? Or does he take shots from afar and stick to cover?
Or, if the player is unlucky :
B) The dice gods have struck! One of Izuku's teammates is knocked out by a lucky crit, before Izuku's combat scene is complete. Does Izuku go all out and Smash his enemies before the situation deteriorates further? Does he break from combat and extract his fallen teammate himself, or does he order someone else to do so?
There is no vote, just... I'd like to hear thoughts and suggestions going forward. Especially about mechanics, but frankly anything about the quest you suggest changing.
Well, most of what I'd say would be positive - I love the narrative as well and enjoy the characters and how they're written. Really, if anything, I worry that my rambling on about my thoughts on things is too much and/or me getting too caught up in my head that I start talking about things assuming some of my own prior hypotheses that aren't confirmed and the combination of such makes my doing so annoying to others so I try to rein it in as best I can either by not saying every little thing that pops in my head or electing to drop a discussion rather than discuss every little point for fear of taking things on a tangent during a vote or something. I may or may not have picked up Fatal Bullet and may or may not be playing it as a kind of quest research right now because I'm that engrossed in the story and wanting to see the parts of it you're showing us that I didn't have a strong grasp of previously.
I tend to be a more narrative-focused person so combat/mechanics isn't exactly my forte. Personally speaking, I wouldn't mind any of those options, but that isn't helpful criticism I suppose. I agree with Muroxxas that the way Persona trains you to think in combat (or at least the way it did for me) tends to encourage having your Wild Card (in this case Hiyori) have prepared to slip into any role - be it elemental coverage, healing, or support. Often because they can probably do it better than anyone else - even those with a dedicated role - but also because your party members can't cover every base themselves so you want to have everything on hand yourself.
I'm probably leaning towards the LAW option of simplifying things a bit, particularly the "one gun to a Persona" bit. If nothing else, it would let you know for sure what we have available in terms of numbers/die and it'd make things simpler on our end by not having to worry about equipping what Persona to what gun (see the previous discussion over Cats of Ulthar equipped to an Optical Pistol. While I explained my reasoning because I was feeling a bit defensive, there is a very valid argument that I wouldn't have much of a defense for if you said "It would straight up be superior to place it on the Varmit Hunter even if you insisted on keeping every one of your other decisions intact regardless of your personal thoughts on how useful it would be.") Honestly, you could probably keep the other mechanics intact then if you wanted to keep them there but depending on what you felt was best you could play with them (ex. Keep the weight system so we're still deciding what equipment to take to a fight, just everything's weight is already locked in from the jump since Persona are locked to a single gun vs Just letting us have everything.)
I suppose a secondary concern could be "but what if a gun/Persona comes in underpowered?" but if this truly became an issue (I don't particularly think it's a problem if we have certain favorites which tend to make us less likely to use others) you could just rebalance - there would be precedent. Per Fatal Bullet there is a kind of blacksmithing type thing with Weapon Modification where Liz can upgrade weapons. Varmit Hunter w/Cats keeps getting benched? Enter Varmit Hunter+ with more accuracy or a lower weight or something. With an emphasis on higher action costs I'd probably recommend making this a free action (ArFA-sys glitching out the shopkeepers again? idk) rather than something we have to proactively take simply because I don't think we ever would. But that's only if you think weapon balance is a problem.
I personally agree with LAW for the most part, simplifying things in combat and making narrative more influential seems like a good option. The current system is way too number crunchy, we should be focusing less on individual moves and more on general game plan in combat.
Well, for starters, the quest feels much fairer now than it did before your last one was handed over to someone else, so there's at least THAT much to be proud of. I don't feel like we're currently in a bad situation because of the whims and moods of the QM, I feel like we're in a bad situation because we, the players, went with what is in hindsight a sub-optimal (depending on how you look at it, terrible) loadout plan and are now having to work with the consequences of our actions.
Love the writing, just, *chef's kiss*, even though I actively avoid SAO media (watching the first episode with a friend in high school notwithstanding) due to how much it gets roasted and lambasted at large, the way you've incorporated elements from Persona into it has been:
A) a lot smoother and well-integrated than most other crossover fanfics. You have the staples (Velvet Room, Social Links, Wild Card etc.), but you don't shoehorn certain elements into the crossover just because without giving a reason to first.
B) Social Links and the Persona Compendium have been masterfully adapted to a quest format without losing the depth that would normally come with the systems in question.
is just an OC Persona quest that I followed before making an SV account, and in hindsight (hell, I realized this when the quest started to go into endgame) it has numerous problems with the writing and implementation of Persona mechanics.
For starters:
1. Party members get periodically killed in duels with the protagonist because the entire thing is framed against a battle royale for divine power, which locks the Social Link at whatever rank it was at time of death. This also had the side effect of locking the Chariot link at rank 4, because the first duel happened almost literally after the tutorial segment.
2. The party members are just...very antagonistic toward each other and the protagonist because of the battle royale aspect and the fact that all of them except for the protagonist are the upper-crust elite of society in some way. It gets very off-putting to read those interactions very quickly during mid-game and later. Think the interactions between all of the characters in Cross Ange (for those who get the reference) but turned up to 11.
3. All party member deaths seems to be unavoidable because...the QM wanted it to be that way, I guess. The QM of that quest stated that if the final party member had been talked down, he would have died anyway. Also, the Empress party member was killed in her duel with the protagonist in a textbook cliché 'sacrifice yourself to save the protagonist from your Shadow' thing which maxed out the Empress Link because...just because, it seems.
4. Shoehorned crossovers involving characters from Persona 3 and Persona 5. Sae Nijima gets a Persona, Makoto Nijima gets involved (and gets her Persona changed if I'm remembering things correctly), and Aigis participates in the final battle. No, I won't elaborate on any of that, you can read the quest yourself if you want to see the trainwreck in slow motion.
5. Overall, the quest feels like Persona's antithesis: everybody is out to get everybody else, and in the end, the protagonist is alone against the final boss save for characters from Persona 3 and Persona 5 (and Aigis doesn't get a Social Link like Makoto and Sae do. She just literally shows up in the Velvet Room right before the final battle). Sure, the protagonist gets a happy ending complete with hot goth GF, but, like...half the 'friends' she made are dead, partially at her hand. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
Okay, dormant rant against the flaws of the above quest over. TLDR: @afreaknamedpete your current quest is already more well-written than at least one other complete specimen. You can be proud of that much.
Now, as for mechanics...
I feel like you've differentiated GGO from ALO enough and justified it both narratively and mechanically. The problem lies in execution.
I think part of the reason we're in such a bind this fight is that aside from the weight system, you didn't set a 'hard' limit on the number of Personas we can take into combat, unlike in ALO where you always had an explicit number we couldn't go over. That muddied things and caused us all to defer to caution in the hopes of not upsetting you and keeping things simple. The hard inventory limit seems like a good place to start on that front.
In the interest of keeping your writing burden low, increasing or otherwise limiting daily actions seems like a good idea. Keeping Social Link posts short (or combining them if they're short enough) might also help.
As for other combat mechanics, a mix of neutral and chaos, for starters, but more specifically:
Kill Initiative, and, depending on your preference, either always have Lux go first, or have turn order be determined by AGI (with Hiyori's AGI being determined by both her avatar's native AGI and the first Persona she uses in that segment)
As others have pointed out, Persona in general encourages players to build wide because that's what having the Wild Card encourages. Leaning on a single Persona for hyper-carry doesn't typically happen until endgame, and even then, more than one Persona is used because they still fulfill different roles by necessity (physical nuker, magic nuker, buffer, near-total elemental immunity, etc.)
Paradoxically, although this might complicate things, restrict elemental weaknesses to the turn that specific Persona is used. I feel like 'every Persona contributes their weaknesses to a combat scene' is...if not punishing, restrictive. It discourages Persona variety in combat planning once a fight has started and enemy elemental affinities become known (see the final Sugou fight for an example of that). It's also reared its ugly head in the current combat. Most plans that we came up with last turn centered around maintaining an immunity to ice because of it.
Since the genie has already been let out of the bottle, so to speak, with Sinon manifesting Aimpotis, why not retool the 'Shadow Hiyori as a combatant' concept you expected us to go for and let us do the same? In fact, you could justify it narratively with GGO's SEED 'breaking' after everyone saw what Sinon did. Have one Persona manifest itself wielding the gun it's in, while Hiyori herself uses another gun without the benefits of Persona. Granted, you'd probably also have to lock Personas to one gun each if you did that, and this WOULD complicate mechanics further...
Eliminate the mechanical differences between modern, optical, and antique weapons in terms of what stats Personas add to offensive rolls (including CHT, the current system heavily discourages using any CHT skills against enemies, especially after our flubbed Faux-Megidola against XeXeed), and just have all Personas apply all their stats to attack rolls. The different weapon types can still behave differently against enemy defenses (i.e. modern weapons ignoring optical barriers and stuff like that) but right now given Laser Girl and the fact that modern weapons are currently designed only to do normal attacks, there is basically no reason for us to buy modern weapons given how expensive they are, AND that most of them are locked to Nephren-Ka or Archon.
The Bullet Line and distance/ranges so far has been fine in my opinion, although if you REALLY want to simplify things, you could abstract things into melee, short, medium, long, and very long ranges, and adjust things accordingly. (For instance, have an assault rifle be able to fire in short, medium, and long ranges, but only roll with advantage if fired in medium range, have disadvantage in short range, and be unable to fire at targets at very long ranges)
Also, don't be ashamed of improvising! That's basically how I run a lot of my own quest. Lord knows my quest would have stalled by now if I'd tried making some kind of master document for it.
Overall, the quest is solid, you just have make sure it has a good foundation going forward.
Edit: I meant neutral and law, looking back, as well as decreasing daily actions, not increasing them.
LAW) SIMPLIFY. Go back to an ALO system. Kill distance, kill initiative, just simplify guns down to 1 gun per Persona.
CHAOS) NUKE IT. Just... kill all the numbers. Pure Narrative with an increased focus on using Determination as the determinant for combat resolution. But we will have to accept QM fiat, especially for losing.
I feel like both of these together might work well. Let us write out a plan and figure out a good fight Narrative and then tell us after looking at the plan the parts where you'd go "Ok so you'll be doing this bit here, I'd like to roll for instead of fiat win/lose" so you're going EXCALASER here and based on your plan I think it's pretty likely to land so I'll roll a, (1d20, 1d100,somethin) against a chance to fail of 20%. Stuff like that. Just, work with us on the plans to point out points of failure and kinda build a fight scene together?
But the thing is the schedule has slowed to a crawl. We've been in May for a whole year, and I think I have to be more limiting with actions. Full stop, I want to pick up the pace. I was hesitant to increase action cost, because I didn't want it to seem like a punishment, but I really think going forward action costs need to increase.
We want to make money and raise stats, but like going all jobs was key to unlock a SL... and raising costs doesn't solve it, it just encourages us to game the system more for more actions. We've pretty regularly juggled all our side-jobs, well one of them is finished now... just abstract the other three job choices away now into a brief one weekly scene summing them up a paragraph or two each, flat 15k. That'd help some.
Combine Social Link scenes when you can maybe with some of the other actions?
I'm thinking here maybe just removing Minor Actions all together should help some. Maybe spend 5K yen and then like with jobs, flat +2 to all stat growth once a week. Bring us down to just choosing Social Links or Plot Actions? Reduce D from additional actions to maybe spending to choose things or spend against Stress. Uh, something like that. Maybe limit us to whatever you feel like is a good pace time-wise for action limits for those?
1 Major Action a day, so 1 update per in-game day?
So first off, let me say what I like about my own quest, and what I do not wish to change. First I... think I'm a halfway decent plotter. Persona Heaven it's building towards an ending. I'm done being coy, so I'll go out and say it. The initial plan is ALO > GGO > The summer vacation Ordinal Scale arc > Alicization > Ultimate Showdown arc. I'm trying to seed the conflicts of every arc, and I am excited about so many future events (ALICIZATION FINAL BOSS HAS ME FROTHING AT THE MOUTH EVERY DELAYED UPDATE IS DUE TO THE QM FANTASIZING ABOUT THIS FIGHT INSTEAD OF WRITING THE UPDATE). I don't want to change the core story because the story part is my baby.
Wait, there's going to be five arcs/HEAVENs? I thought things were gonna end in the Underworld?
But more seriously I love the narrative of this quest. It's amazing how your writing just stylishly sidesteps all the common problems of Persona fanworks to me. I love the sheer originality of the HEAVENs. I love how so many one-note male SAO characters that existed to be bashed in canon to make Kirito look good have received such care and attention that Sugou, Sigurd, and XeXeeD got. And while I've happily avoided harem members like Leafa and Silica I love how Asuna justifiably hates Hiyori and Sinon's dark side being explored. I love the Persona 2 feel of Hiyori being a more brutal protagonist who has to use imperfect solutions like Tatsuya and Maya did unlike the Phantom Thieves who drive into the sunset as white as freshly fallen snow.
I enjoy the social link system. I like imaging what kind of life the various isekai protags would've lived if not for truck kun. I like picking out new Personas, I really like the psychopomp arguments. I was sitting on the Argo SL for like a year and I was beyond excited when it was finally chosen.
Hell, it's made low-tier isekai protagonist slime like Mikami and Ainz actually compelling to me and proves how they could have actually been good characters if they didn't get isekaied, get handed godhood on a silver platter, and then sand everything done to the most basic principles so they can lie to themselves about how cool, wise, or impressive they are. I love how you insinuate how awful their HEAVENs would be due to the sheer hypocrisy, double standards, and protagonist centered morality so many isekai operate under barring the few exceptions like Shiroe and Subaru on top of not having to deal with a lot of the grosser provocolities those types of stories encourage.
I am... ambivalent about the schedule. I think I underestimated how everyone would just action spam. It is in hindsight something I should've seen coming from a mile away. But it's not as if I don't have levers to pull too, between exam weeks and mandatory events. (Expect a Typhoon)
But the thing is the schedule has slowed to a crawl. We've been in May for a whole year, and I think I have to be more limiting with actions. Full stop, I want to pick up the pace. I was hesitant to increase action cost, because I didn't want it to seem like a punishment, but I really think going forward action costs need to increase.
I'm going to admit to be against to be leery about our time being cut down because i want to see as much of the world you've created as I can see but if you're pushed that far the quest will clearly die.
But for the pacing I don't think it's that bad. The Social Links are the most well intergreted since they can easily be weaved into and contribute to the main plot through the VR premise and while slow it avoids all, the problems of all the over 100,000 word Persona 5-again fanfics with one change and you have to read through Ryuji's link again.
I dunno what my readers think. But I think my combat system is a bag of turd in a tire fire.
I thought ALO was crap so I resolved to change in GGO. And I decided to... make it more complicated. Because I thought that would be more fun for both me and the readers.
It was a very stupid idea. It is not more fun and it's too fiddly for its own good.
Lemme tell you how the sausage is made. I have an overwhelmingly large amount of notes on the lot. I have hundreds of Personas sitting on a text file. I have plans and shit.
The combat stats? I like pull them from a hat like seconds before I roll. =/
I think I've forgotten so many little bonuses here and there.
Half the time I'm not even sure how mechanics should resolve.
So then that begs the obvious question? Why have dice at all? Why not go pure narrative?
And to me there's a philosophical answer.
I need a system where losing is possible, and I need something to excuse setbacks.
Let me elaborate. My Magic system is an unholy fusion between mostly Persona 2 and SAO Alicization. Narratively my magic system is so unbelievably soft it makes Harry Potter seem like a Sanderson novel. I like this, it's intentional and ties in with the themes...
But it leads to problems with conflict resolution. Because there's no real guardrails in place in my magic system about what is or is not possible.
This I completely agree with. It's telling that for all the hype the Sinon fight should have only three or four people have been voting. I really bad at game mechanics beyond the broad generals but I have been having more trouble than usual to figure out what the hell I'm supposed to do. It's my sheer love for this quest that makes me spend hours trying to understand the plans and systems of the GGO arc just to vote.
Let me use an example. Hama. Hama is explicitly a force logout spell. In a mechanics game you roll, simple, understandable. Prone to failure, a risk to be sure. But what about pure narrative? What can I say to a plan that says: 'use Hama'?
And the answer I came up with was to load Alice into the ARASAKA and vaporize everything with a giant pile of dice. Because dice pool gives you accuracy and power. I was afraid the dominant strategy would be to accumulate as much dice as possible, so I decided to balance enemy defense with that in mind.
But currently you're building wide.
End result? Kuro can't hit anything.
And I can go 'lol stupid, now lose the next 5 fights' but that's not fun for me or the players. Because I'm not proud of my mechanics, because I don't even find it engaging. It reflects more on my crap design skills than on poor player judgment. Like if players screw up a NARRATIVE choice, I'm an happy and eager to let bad things happen, because I'm proud off the narrative, and it's fun for me to write drama.
Yeah, this is a big mistep on your end. As Alcor said Persona trains the Wildcard to diversify for any situation which you yourself have incentivized througout ALO with Hiyori's build becoming a centerpiece DPS while acting like a magician with a bag of tricks for any situation. The party members of both ALO and GGO further encouraged focusing on variety since our party members were all specialized.
NEUTRAL) Rebalance and continue. I'll probably shift defenses and accuracy bonuses. Things will get heavier. But the roots stay the same.
LAW) SIMPLIFY. Go back to an ALO system. Kill distance, kill initiative, just simplify guns down to 1 gun per Persona.
CHAOS) NUKE IT. Just... kill all the numbers. Pure Narrative with an increased focus on using Determination as the determinant for combat resolution. But we will have to accept QM fiat, especially for losing.
I think LAW is currently the best. ALO was simple but it worked and I think CHAOS is too dangerous of a Pandora's Box to open since it could theoritically let us players or you pull anything out of our butts.
