Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

I was just talking about the, "We're the masked Antifa, so of course the people (coming from around the corner masked like we are) rise up and join us." Like, the equivalent.

You could totally do Antifa as Akashics or Euthantos, as well as rogue technocracy (rogue NWO, or Rogue Progenitors building Antifa super soldiers), or even virtual adapts.

What I was talking about specifically is that the main conflict of canon oMage is one that's not really very relevant to people's lives. And thus "the Technocracy" seems like it'd be an awfully broad group IRL. *shrugs*

Like, they're The Man and yet... *waves hands*.

Well no, because it was written 30 years ago lol. It's very 1990s. However, it's simple to make relevant. You just go "Well, the technocracy's system of oppression is destroying the planet and making everyone poor" and portray them more as the 1% than they were previously. It's not really hard to engineer.

Edit: Like, in the 1990s the fight was a lot more about personal identity, and so that's what mage presents. The ability to be gay, the ability to do something other than what your parents wanted, to belong to subcultures, even the ability to play RPGs were all far more contested in the 1990s than they are now.

We've moved on to a struggle that's still about identity, but that is far more global and existential. "How do we build a better life for people?" or worse "How do we even live in this world?" Are the questions now.

Personal ascension is much less of a thing, global ascension much more of one.
 
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Mage is very much of its time, and that time was the 1990s, which was sort of apolitically right. It's pretty easy to add in left-wing themes into mage. Like, it's very much a setting where there's a systematic structure of global oppression based on the cooperation of the elite against everyone else. The main problem with Mage from a left-wing perspective is that it doesn't want a revolution, it wants you to free your mind, which is ultimately a rather selfish way to conduct yourself against a conspiracy for global oppression. This concentration is why I don't like revised as much.
Wouldn't that just require slight reorientation to focusing the ideas on who the Traditions are supposed to represent? Like I think the Zapatistas would a pretty good example of a Traditions aligned group in terms fighting the system in a very concrete way.
 
So I came up with some rotes for Technocrats.

Armed Response (NWO or Syndic rote)
Correspondence 2/Mind 2 in a major Western City, add Entropy or Time 2 in other areas.

The world is full of armed response teams against terrorist attacks and criminals. using this technique, the Technocrat can rapidly summon help from a large number of armed men. Each success on the enlightenment roll gives you two free points of temporary backup background representing an appropriate response by local security assets to your situation. What this response will consist of exactly depends on where you are. So, for instance, an agent of the NWO in Paris might gain immediate help from a number of French soldiers and armed police against the possible terrorist incident. A Syndic in LA would gain the assistance of a number of armed response Rentacops on patrol. Normal response times for the unit apply. So, for instance, if you sound an armed response protocol in the middle of a major London station you'll have help in moments, if you're in a rundown suburb it may take a while.

Counter Assault Team
Corespondence 2/life 4/matter 4, or corr 4/life 2/matter 2

Senior operatives may call for a more powerful procedure, ensuring they always have backup at hand without waiting for a response time. Counter Assault Team allows a senior technocratic operative to gain the backup of large numbers of armed operatives anywhere in the world at will, with only a momentary response time. Every success on enlightenment your roll gain 2 temporary background points would of backup with no lead time. Swarms of heavily armed security just pour in through the nearest door.

So some thoughts about the second rote. How does the typical technocratic paradigm justify creating soldiers out of thin air?
With the first you can say something like "you get an existing police force to come to your aid quickly due to your connections with the government and social training".
 
So some thoughts about the second rote. How does the typical technocratic paradigm justify creating soldiers out of thin air?
With the first you can say something like "you get an existing police force to come to your aid quickly due to your connections with the government and social training".
"Well, as an important member of the Technocratic Union with ties to Denmark, I have a bodyguard of Danish Frogmen to shadow my every move."
 
So some thoughts about the second rote. How does the typical technocratic paradigm justify creating soldiers out of thin air?
With the first you can say something like "you get an existing police force to come to your aid quickly due to your connections with the government and social training".

you're only creating them metaphysically. Paradigmatically, you just had a QRF right next to you.
 
you're only creating them metaphysically. Paradigmatically, you just had a QRF right next to you.
I guess it could also be something like "they were phased out using prototype quantum transport tech".

Anyways, that has got to make some things uncomfortable. Most people aren't e It is going to be a real mood-killer for any romantic occasion when you remember that a highly trained group of special force agents is hiding in that closet.
They will also be hearing everything. Sure they probably aren't going to judge you, but can you ever look them in the ....... face? ...... helmet? the same way ever again?
 
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I guess it could also be something like "they were phased out using prototype quantum transport tech".

Anyways, that has got to make some things uncomfortable. Most people aren't e It is going to be a real mood-killer for any romantic occasion when you remember that a highly trained group of special force agents is hiding in that closet.
They will also be hearing everything. Sure they probably aren't going to judge you, but can you ever look them in the ....... face? ...... helmet? the same way ever again?

If you're a technocrat who's got enough juice to cast this, I'd assume you're kind of used to having bodyguards around all the time.

Wouldn't that just require slight reorientation to focusing the ideas on who the Traditions are supposed to represent? Like I think the Zapatistas would a pretty good example of a Traditions aligned group in terms fighting the system in a very concrete way.

It would, but I feel like you can do that, a lot of white wolf's detailed fluff is really bad.

"Well, as an important member of the Technocratic Union with ties to Denmark, I have a bodyguard of Danish Frogmen to shadow my every move."

These guys are so MGS. They look like they should be coming in to the skull unit theme.
 
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...That's fair point; but i feel it is pretty incredibly insulting to saying most people in real life who are religious aren't "true believers".
hashtag gatekeeping :V

Mage is a game where actions very explicitly do not speak louder than words, or more accurately, actions do not speak louder than intent. If you took one of those average Japanese people and put a gun to their head, would they beg you to spare your life or would they pray to Amaterasu to intervene? And if you pulled the trigger, would they believe that they would die, or that their god might protect them?
Does that mean you can instant-buy the True Faith merit if you're getting shot at? :V
 
Well the point would to "update" it to be less 90s; I mean i agree with you; reading the Celestial Chorus book was a such chore because it was so disconnected from any actual occult/religious traditions.

Yeah. They didn't know what to do with the CC.

I think that what I'd probably do is have like, the ascension war have been declared Over in 1999, (maybe without the loss of off world assets cause I think the Umbra is rpetty fun) and now have younger people wanting to start it up again as everything is collapsing and getting worse.
 
Maybe the Avatar Storm and etc happened, but the effects tapered off in the 2010's?
So the updated version of Umbral assets would be about rebuilding/reclaiming what was lost and striking new ground.

That'd be cool because then there's a lot clearer set of adventurers to have out there, and you can retain at least some of threat null that people like so much.

I think the main thing that needs to be addressed is that just wanting personal ascension is in some ways kind of selfish if you don't have any plan to bring anyone else along with you. That's where I'd put the locus of a revised version of the game.
 
I think the main thing that needs to be addressed is that just wanting personal ascension is in some ways kind of selfish if you don't have any plan to bring anyone else along with you.

It would depend on your paradigm wouldn't it? Some suggest the path to ascension is something that must be undertaken alone no? Like classical sage and enlightenment type thinking.
 
So from a Mage perspective that would be someone achieving personal Ascension and then, once they figure out how it's actually possible to achieve, they return to their previous state and teach others?
I was more thinking along the lines that the masters who delay their ascension to work on Earth are a lot more impactful then the archmages that fart around in space.
 
You could totally do Antifa as Akashics or Euthantos, as well as rogue technocracy (rogue NWO, or Rogue Progenitors building Antifa super soldiers), or even virtual adapts.



Well no, because it was written 30 years ago lol. It's very 1990s. However, it's simple to make relevant. You just go "Well, the technocracy's system of oppression is destroying the planet and making everyone poor" and portray them more as the 1% than they were previously. It's not really hard to engineer.

Edit: Like, in the 1990s the fight was a lot more about personal identity, and so that's what mage presents. The ability to be gay, the ability to do something other than what your parents wanted, to belong to subcultures, even the ability to play RPGs were all far more contested in the 1990s than they are now.

We've moved on to a struggle that's still about identity, but that is far more global and existential. "How do we build a better life for people?" or worse "How do we even live in this world?" Are the questions now.

Personal ascension is much less of a thing, global ascension much more of one.

I don't think that the Technocracy per se works in its original form as the "global 1%." Let me posit a scenario that gets you what you want, more or less.

The Utopian Conventions get their shit pushed in after WW2. The Void Engineers are gutted because they had to nuke a dozen Cthulhus out in Pluto and fight a forever-war against the Migo. Iteration X loses tons of its guys in frontline fights against literal cyberdemons. The Progenitors mostly self-destruct killing all the guys who went over to the Nazis.

The pragmatic people-in-power types, the Syndicate and the NWO, use this to basically leash the utopians. Unlike canon, where the VAs and a handful of guys defect (or the @EarthScorpion/PQ version where the Virtual Adepts defected because of nationalistic sentiments being suppressed post-WW2), much of the remaining Utopian contingent goes off and backs the USSR, having already been highly sympathetic to it. Others try to work in the margins as the Third Way, with this idea of a vaguely social-libertarian post-scarcity utopia. The pragmatists find other ways to stay in power instead. They literally ally with the Camarilla, for one. They even make cynical overtures to certain aspects of the Traditions, particularly religion and the old nobility-you can be left alone as long as you accept our power structure. Perhaps there are enough Lightbringers and Templars around and they weren't purged and reorganized that they reinvent the association of religion with the Technocracy, but explicitly as a tool of control rather than of enlightenment and promotion of science and literacy. "They're just a safety valve to keep Deviancy from spreading" or whatever. And then you have the decades-long Cold War, and the USSR and the utopian Technocrats lose. That's "The End of History."

And it all comes tumbling down, and everything is shit, and in desperation, at some point in the 21st century, the remaining utopian technocrats-the Avalonians or whatever-become the ninth Tradition. The more idealistic, somewhat anarchistic VAs and the transhumanist ItX and the transhumanist Progenitors versus cynical Big Data VAs and the military-industrial complex Iterators and the Big Pharma Progenitors, backed by Nationalism, Religion, and Wealth. And you're not sure if they're planning to kill you all or sell you out right after they win, but you need them. Because the Union (it might not even be the Technocratic Union anymore) has all the resources. Because a fair few of your own old masters sold out and decided to accept the comfortable status quo where they're allowed to do what they want so long as they don't rock the boat.

This gets you a more 1E-like antagonist but I think that's kinda what you want?
 
I don't think that the Technocracy per se works in its original form as the "global 1%." Let me posit a scenario that gets you what you want, more or less.

The Utopian Conventions get their shit pushed in after WW2. The Void Engineers are gutted because they had to nuke a dozen Cthulhus out in Pluto and fight a forever-war against the Migo. Iteration X loses tons of its guys in frontline fights against literal cyberdemons. The Progenitors mostly self-destruct killing all the guys who went over to the Nazis.

The pragmatic people-in-power types, the Syndicate and the NWO, use this to basically leash the utopians. Unlike canon, where the VAs and a handful of guys defect (or the @EarthScorpion/PQ version where the Virtual Adepts defected because of nationalistic sentiments being suppressed post-WW2), much of the remaining Utopian contingent goes off and backs the USSR, having already been highly sympathetic to it. Others try to work in the margins as the Third Way, with this idea of a vaguely social-libertarian post-scarcity utopia. The pragmatists find other ways to stay in power instead. They literally ally with the Camarilla, for one. They even make cynical overtures to certain aspects of the Traditions, particularly religion and the old nobility-you can be left alone as long as you accept our power structure. Perhaps there are enough Lightbringers and Templars around and they weren't purged and reorganized that they reinvent the association of religion with the Technocracy, but explicitly as a tool of control rather than of enlightenment and promotion of science and literacy. "They're just a safety valve to keep Deviancy from spreading" or whatever. And then you have the decades-long Cold War, and the USSR and the utopian Technocrats lose. That's "The End of History."

And it all comes tumbling down, and everything is shit, and in desperation, at some point in the 21st century, the remaining utopian technocrats-the Avalonians or whatever-become the ninth Tradition. The more idealistic, somewhat anarchistic VAs and the transhumanist ItX and the transhumanist Progenitors versus cynical Big Data VAs and the military-industrial complex Iterators and the Big Pharma Progenitors, backed by Nationalism, Religion, and Wealth. And you're not sure if they're planning to kill you all or sell you out right after they win, but you need them. Because the Union (it might not even be the Technocratic Union anymore) has all the resources. Because a fair few of your own old masters sold out and decided to accept the comfortable status quo where they're allowed to do what they want so long as they don't rock the boat.

This gets you a more 1E-like antagonist but I think that's kinda what you want?

This reminds me a lot of a thing I put together for a mage game where the economic crisis of 2007 was actually the result of the paradox backlash created by the magic that the technocracy conservative faction had used to basically render the USSR paradoxical in the 1980s. Basically they'd used mind magic to alter the perceptions of everyone on the planet in a massive act of anti-blatancy. This of course caused a giant amount of paradox, but the fallout from it also allowed the virtual adept manufacture of the internet and the resurgence of alternative medicine and the like in the 1990s.

Good stuff.
 
Maybe the Avatar Storm and etc happened, but the effects tapered off in the 2010's?
So the updated version of Umbral assets would be about rebuilding/reclaiming what was lost and striking new ground.
Wouldn't that suffer from the problem then Threat Null just eats everybody? Since the Technocracy's space assets are just lukz worthy on how much a stomp that would be.
 
So from a Mage perspective that would be someone achieving personal Ascension and then, once they figure out how it's actually possible to achieve, they return to their previous state and teach others?

I was more thinking along the lines that the masters who delay their ascension to work on Earth are a lot more impactful then the archmages that fart around in space.

I think those are Oracles.

And speaking of archmages, where can i find info about Sennex, Dante and Porthos? Masters of the Art is sparse on specifics on individual archmages.
 
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