Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

I'm not, I'm using the fact that Rowling has outright stated that most wizards are pretty dumbillogical, especially when compared to the smart ones who are pretty damn smart.

It was a throwaway line in one book, and we don't really see it followed through? Most Wizards don't come off as particularly illogical, honestly.

At least no more than the average person, which admittedly is a low bar to clear, as 2016 shows.
 
I'm not even sure why in the context of Mage logic has anything to do competency; since logic is clearly a technoparadrim thing and several traditions outright reject logic in favor of observation>deduction.
 
Reading through WOD thread and all the arguments; doesn't Japan kind of shoot the idea that "muddled consensus=collapse of technoparadrim infrastructure" considering its hyper advanced along technocratic standards yet the heavy dreamspeaker influence hasn't caused all those consequences the people say what the whole "thoughtcrime" thing would otherwise imply.
 
Reading through WOD thread and all the arguments; doesn't Japan kind of shoot the idea that "muddled consensus=collapse of technoparadrim infrastructure" considering its hyper advanced along technocratic standards yet the heavy dreamspeaker influence hasn't caused all those consequences the people say what the whole "thoughtcrime" thing would otherwise imply.

It is very much inherent to WoD that most people who claim to believe in a religion do not actually believe it, but are using it as a self-justifying excuse. It's very 90s in a way. If there was a heavy dreamspeaker influence, most Japanese would have True Faith. Most Japanese do not. Ergo, there is not actually a heavy dreamspeaker influence.

oWoD assumes that most people are what the atheist movement has called "culturally religious" or in specific, culturally Christian. They observe religious holidays, play lip service to the religion itself, maybe even live culturally by internalized tenets of the religion, but they don't have true faith. Rather, they use their religion to avoid having to think about things that are uncomfortable for them rather than truly believing in whatever the tenets are, and therefore go through the motions.

There's a reason that the 'religious' Tradition in oMage is actually a heretical monotheistic syncretic cult, not an actual religion, and you hear about few if any religious magi who are independent of that and not part of another tradition. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant, that's how the WoD presents itself. Because otherwise, Big Religion would have to be part of the enemy and then you're back to having the Seers of the Throne, which the makers of oMage didn't want to do.
 
Reading through WOD thread and all the arguments; doesn't Japan kind of shoot the idea that "muddled consensus=collapse of technoparadrim infrastructure" considering its hyper advanced along technocratic standards yet the heavy dreamspeaker influence hasn't caused all those consequences the people say what the whole "thoughtcrime" thing would otherwise imply.


I had a response to this but I realized I'm not entirely certain what you're asking, so what do you mean but muddled consensus causing the technopairadim to fall apart? Because I don't think there are people who say that the sleepers can't be at all superstitious or the Technocrat stuff doesn't work in the area but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised to learn that someone argues that point of view.
 
It is very much inherent to WoD that most people who claim to believe in a religion do not actually believe it, but are using it as a self-justifying excuse. It's very 90s in a way. If there was a heavy dreamspeaker influence, most Japanese would have True Faith. Most Japanese do not. Ergo, there is not actually a heavy dreamspeaker influence.

oWoD assumes that most people are what the atheist movement has called "culturally religious" or in specific, culturally Christian. They observe religious holidays, play lip service to the religion itself, maybe even live culturally by internalized tenets of the religion, but they don't have true faith. Rather, they use their religion to avoid having to think about things that are uncomfortable for them rather than truly believing in whatever the tenets are, and therefore go through the motions.

There's a reason that the 'religious' Tradition in oMage is actually a heretical monotheistic syncretic cult, not an actual religion, and you hear about few if any religious magi who are independent of that and not part of another tradition. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant, that's how the WoD presents itself. Because otherwise, Big Religion would have to be part of the enemy and then you're back to having the Seers of the Throne, which the makers of oMage didn't want to do.
...That's fair point; but i feel it is pretty incredibly insulting to saying most people in real life who are religious aren't "true believers".
 
I had a response to this but I realized I'm not entirely certain what you're asking, so what do you mean but muddled consensus causing the technopairadim to fall apart? Because I don't think there are people who say that the sleepers can't be at all superstitious or the Technocrat stuff doesn't work in the area but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised to learn that someone argues that point of view.

Basically, I'm not sure of the exact argument, but there's a lot of talk about whether a Traditions victory (whether partial or total) involves planes suddenly falling from the sky, pacemakers breaking, and dogs and cats living together unless everyone solidly believes in the Techno-paradigm (or at least a vast majority of people).

...That's fair point; but i feel it is pretty incredibly insulting to saying most people in real life who are religious aren't "true believers".

Welcome to oMage/the 90s.
 
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Basically, I'm not sure of the exact argument, but there's a lot of talk about whether a Traditions victory (whether partial or total) involves planes suddenly falling from the sky, pacemakers breaking, and dogs and cats living together unless everyone solidly believes in the Techno-paradigm (or at least a vast majority of people).

I mean, I've seen that for the total victory before, but I thought them having inclinations was fine as long as they still believed science worked as advertised.

...That's fair point; but i feel it is pretty incredibly insulting to saying most people in real life who are religious aren't "true believers".
Welcome to oMage/the 90s.

Ironically MJ's answer about them not 'really' believing is how the Japanese largely describe themselves. A majority will claim to be atheistic and many will explain away their use of omamori and visiting shrines as just something silly they do 'just in case' it actually does work.
 
I mean, I've seen that for the total victory before, but I thought them having inclinations was fine as long as they still believed science worked as advertised.




Ironically MJ's answer about them not 'really' believing is how the Japanese largely describe themselves. A majority will claim to be atheistic and many will explain away their use of omamori and visiting shrines as just something silly they do 'just in case' it actually does work.

I mean, realistically, if that's wishy-washy non-belief, and it might well be, then it should also be wishy-washy atheism that doesn't count for that much Paradigmatically on the "The Gods are Dead" scale.
 
I mean, realistically, if that's wishy-washy non-belief, and it might well be, then it should also be wishy-washy atheism that doesn't count for that much Paradigmatically on the "The Gods are Dead" scale.

It doesn't. Various gods are alive and well as spirits, even ones who you would think would have died out, like the old Greek/Roman gods and the deities of various other dead polytheistic religions.
 
Ironically MJ's answer about them not 'really' believing is how the Japanese largely describe themselves. A majority will claim to be atheistic and many will explain away their use of omamori and visiting shrines as just something silly they do 'just in case' it actually does work.
Yeah but there's what people say; and what people actually do; IMO i think actions speak louder then words.
 
Yeah but there's what people say; and what people actually do; IMO i think actions speak louder then words.

They can yes, but words can still shape why people are doing the things they do. If everyone is saying they are just doing something because it makes them feel lucky instead of an honest belief that by doing this they ill gain the favor of a god then eventually everyone who is doing it will just be doing so because it makes them feel lucky and the original reason will be all but forgotten.
 
Reading through WOD thread and all the arguments; doesn't Japan kind of shoot the idea that "muddled consensus=collapse of technoparadrim infrastructure" considering its hyper advanced along technocratic standards yet the heavy dreamspeaker influence hasn't caused all those consequences the people say what the whole "thoughtcrime" thing would otherwise imply.

The Technocracy in East Asia is also descended from different groups than their western counterparts, and have much less of a problem with things that the Euro ones want to purge from their paradigm. Hell, a good chunk of the elder will workers would be considered outright mystics by the west's standard.
 
Yeah but there's what people say; and what people actually do; IMO i think actions speak louder then words.

Mage is a game where actions very explicitly do not speak louder than words, or more accurately, actions do not speak louder than intent. If you took one of those average Japanese people and put a gun to their head, would they beg you to spare your life or would they pray to Amaterasu to intervene? And if you pulled the trigger, would they believe that they would die, or that their god might protect them?

Thinking of it this way, this is why the religious paradigm doesn't have as much effect on the world as it could. People don't believe, in general, that they, specifically, are protected by the gods for whatever reason because they have an important part in the plans of the divine.
 
Mage is a game where actions very explicitly do not speak louder than words, or more accurately, actions do not speak louder than intent. If you took one of those average Japanese people and put a gun to their head, would they beg you to spare your life or would they pray to Amaterasu to intervene? And if you pulled the trigger, would they believe that they would die, or that their god might protect them?

Thinking of it this way, this is why the religious paradigm doesn't have as much effect on the world as it could. People don't believe, in general, that they, specifically, are protected by the gods for whatever reason because they have an important part in the plans of the divine.

I mean, my own opinion is that in some ways nMage is as good or better a product to explore the nature of religious belief, and so on, if that's what you're looking for. Which is an odd thing to say when comparing a work that's all about beliefs to one that doesn't have consensual reality.
 
Mage is a game where actions very explicitly do not speak louder than words, or more accurately, actions do not speak louder than intent. If you took one of those average Japanese people and put a gun to their head, would they beg you to spare your life or would they pray to Amaterasu to intervene? And if you pulled the trigger, would they believe that they would die, or that their god might protect them?

Thinking of it this way, this is why the religious paradigm doesn't have as much effect on the world as it could. People don't believe, in general, that they, specifically, are protected by the gods for whatever reason because they have an important part in the plans of the divine.
I dont think fair standard because your saying the temporal actions of say the millions of muslims who go on hajj mean less then that specific narrow belief you stated to contribution to religious paradigm.
 
Eh. Large amounts of the populace can absolutely have heartfelt belief in their religions while not visibly changing the consensus.

Even if you have complete faith in your god(s), that doesn't mean you believe they'll obviously and visibly interfere in your life in a way that'd help a Choirister summoning down an angel to throw around holy fire.

On the other hand, in a highly religious area, a priest praying for guidance might just so happen to find themselves at their goal after a series of signs or coincidences, Dresden Files style.
 
Eh. Large amounts of the populace can absolutely have heartfelt belief in their religions while not visibly changing the consensus.

Even if you have complete faith in your god(s), that doesn't mean you believe they'll obviously and visibly interfere in your life in a way that'd help a Choirister summoning down an angel to throw around holy fire.

On the other hand, in a highly religious area, a priest praying for guidance might just so happen toqzzzzzz sees the zwa find themselves at their goal after a series of signs or acoincidences, Dresden Files style.
Sure but stuff like those photos of orthodox priests blessing guns is totally legit. Order of the firebird probably uses those aks to fight vampires.
 
But if vampires use the mage rules, it means they're life forms. Which makes it that much harder to turn them into lawn chairs.

I cannot condone anything which makes that happen. :V
Not a fan of Vicissitude, eh?
I meant paradrimcilly speaking there are basically the same in the general sense of being laws that can be discovered to be used to do magic thing.
HP Wizards... don't really work like that. They're hereditary, and cast entirely by rote, without even a semblance of a coherent paradigm.

In Mage, I'd view them as some sort of early experiment by either Hermetics or Verbena in attempting to make what are effectively Proximi from nMage, but had too many integral mental Paradox flaws and were abandoned to fend for themselves.
 
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