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Knight of Dandriss: Stone and Steel

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redzonejoe said:
Constructing the indigo hammer enclave is pretty short-sighted right now... We should really focus on getting a hab first, and the enclave on turn 9 or 10
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Is it shortsighted? It provides us with +1 culture/econ, and allows us to tack on a possibly interesting building (or remove the penalty on our new trading post). From +7 to +8 per turn, with 4 leftover, we take two more turns (and another 10 spot on econ-culture conversion) and have the actual hab by turn 8, which is overall faster than yours, and allows us access to any unique Enclave Trading Post actions in the meantime.
 
[X] Patrol rail lines
[X] Patrol forest
[X] Investigate raider causes
[X] Construct Special Building - Indigo Hammer Enclave (+1 Culture, +1 Economy, has the population to support 1 Entertainment Complex, Trading Post, or Factory. Adds special modifiers to supported building and opens up special opportunities. Cost: 20 Culture) Available until the end of Turn 10

[X] Study Politics
[X] Study Will
[X] Activate Nightmare Cube

The reason we want to buddy up with Adler is to... well, breed good kids (there's no nice word for it). Can we even agree as a group (after the cube debacle of the previous turn) whether or not we even want a kid right now?
 
Powerofmind said:
Is it shortsighted? It provides us with +1 culture/econ, and allows us to tack on a possibly interesting building (or remove the penalty on our new trading post). From +7 to +8 per turn, with 4 leftover, we take two more turns (and another 10 spot on econ-culture conversion) and have the actual hab by turn 8, which is overall faster than yours, and allows us access to any unique Enclave Trading Post actions in the meantime.
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Hab lets us spend economy, military, etc on filling up the 3 additional building slots it provides.

The enclave gives us 1 free building slot, which means going from -1 to 0.

It costs 66% of the hab cost for less than 50% of the benefit. Just because we can build it now absolutely does not mean we should.

And the 'turn 9 or 10' estimate wasn't actually determined by math. It may be available as early as turn 8 or even 7 if we take actions towards that.
 
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[X] Patrol rail lines
[X] Patrol forest
[X] Investigate raider causes
[X] Hold a major festival

[X] Study will
[X] Pursue Baron Malcolm Adler as an ally
[X] Activate Nightmare Cube
 
redzonejoe said:
Hab let's us spend economy, military, etc on filling up the 3 additional building slots it provides.

The enclave gives us 1 free building slot, which means going from -1 to 0.

It costs 66% of the hab cost for less than 50% of the benefit. Just because we can build it now absolutely does not mean we should.
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It's been barely one page since AN commented on the fickle and random nature of our turns. You might say we can get it later, but there's no guarantee we'll have enough by then. The hab is forever, the enclave is a limited time offer.
 
Powerofmind said:
The hab is forever, the enclave is a limited time offer.
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Now I don't want Ivy to jump down my throat, but isn't that the very definition of a shiny?

Regardless, we have so far, over 4 turns, spent 20 culture and amassed 10 more.

Our income has more than doubled in that time.*

To fear-buy something because you think we might not be able to afford it when all evidence suggests it should be easily within our grasp , and ignoring the steep opportunity-cost of literally all other buildings in the meantime? Yes that's what I'd consider short-sighted.

*maybe. Kinda. Our economy income has more than doubled, and our culture income will have gone to 9 from 4 after the Hab is built, but I guess it hasn't actually doubled yet. I spoke too soon.
 
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[X] Patrol rail lines
[X] Patrol forest
[X] Investigate raider causes
[X] Construct Special Building - Indigo Hammer Enclave (+1 Culture, +1 Economy, has the population to support 1 Entertainment Complex, Trading Post, or Factory. Adds special modifiers to supported building and opens up special opportunities. Cost: 20 Culture) Available until the end of Turn 10

[X] Study Politics
[X] Study Will
[X] Activate Nightmare Cube
 
[X] Patrol rail lines
[X] Patrol forest
[X] Investigate raider causes
[X] Construct Special Building - Indigo Hammer Enclave

We should seize the moment here. We have a great opportunity to nab a very useful building, and we really need whatever intel we can get on whatever's causing a stir out in the woods ASAP.

[X] Study Willpower
[X] Pursue Baron Malcolm Adler as an ally
[X] Activate Nightmare Cube

Pursuing Adler synergizes nicely with our military actions, I think. Shows we're serious about taking a proactive role.
 
redzonejoe said:
Now I don't want Ivy to jump down my throat, but isn't that the very definition of a shiny?

Regardless, we have so far, over 5 turns, spent 20 culture and amassed 10 more.

Our income has more than doubled in that time.

To fear-buy something because you think we might not be able to afford it when all evidence suggests it should be easily within our grasp , and ignoring the steep opportunity-cost of literally all other buildings in the meantime? Yes that's what I'd consider short-sighted.
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If the enclave were a shiny, it wouldn't provide us with the rather clearly stated, tangible benefits it's advertised to provide.

I further question your assumptions that we could afford other buildings and that not getting them is a major setback in overall development. By the rules of the game, we literally can't build the hab until turn 6. If we take your route, assuming no complications occur that cost culture, we can build it by turn 9. Assuming complications, the last turn it is available. Assuming any other limited opportunities arise, because we waited so long to take advantage of it, we now have to choose between X and Y, because 'the plan', which has already fallen to pieces, takes precedence over turn-by-turn judgement calls.
Janadus said:
Pursuing Adler synergizes nicely with our military actions, I think. Shows we're serious about taking a proactive role.
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Adler is a sperm donor, not a military ally. He can't possibly throw soldiers at our problems, he's too far away and is too busy ensuring he can get his promotion to risk a rocky campaign.
 
[X] Patrol rail lines
[X] Patrol forest
[X] Investigate raider causes
[X] Construct Special Building - Indigo Hammer Enclave (+1 Culture, +1 Economy, has the population to support 1 Entertainment Complex, Trading Post, or Factory. Adds special modifiers to supported building and opens up special opportunities. Cost: 20 Culture) Available until the end of Turn 10

[X] Study Politics
[X] Study Will
[X] Activate Nightmare Cube
 
Powerofmind said:
If the enclave were a shiny, it wouldn't provide us with the rather clearly stated, tangible benefits it's advertised to provide.
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I don't think something that doesn't provide any benefits can be considered a shiny. At least not to SV questers. A shiny is something attractive, and there is nothing more attractive to SV than limited-time offers of upgrades.

I further question your assumptions that we could afford other buildings and that not getting them is a major setback in overall development. By the rules of the game, we literally can't build the hab until turn 6. If we take your route, assuming no complications occur that cost culture, we can build it by turn 9. Assuming complications, the last turn it is available. Assuming any other limited opportunities arise, because we waited so long to take advantage of it, we now have to choose between X and Y, because 'the plan', which has already fallen to pieces, takes precedence over turn-by-turn judgement calls.
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I'm not against the enclave because of some predetermined 'plan'.

I'm against the enclave because it it's horribly inefficient, and completely unnecessary to get now. It is available for several more turns.

I chose yes to the trade post, despite its distruption of the plan, precisely because I am open to turn-by-turn judgement calls. Do not act like I'm mindlessly following some script and ignorantly dismissing anything that doesn't conform.

Now because you're forcing me to do this, I'm going to throw some numbers around. I know that it's not entirely accurate. I know that there will be unexpected expenses - and unexpected income - that I can't take into account.

Turn 5: Culture 24
6: 31-25=6 - built hab
7: 13 -can build misc building (reactor, proving ground, factory, other)
8: 22 - can build enclave
9: 31 - can build further buildings
10: 40 -etc

By turn 10, we should have enough to build 2 enclaves, and you're worried we won't be able to build 1? Your worry is baseless. Turn 8 enclave is almost guaranteed. Unexpected expenses can be countered with unexpected income and influence trade

I started to do a counter-sim of building an enclave first, but just simulating culture income doesn't show the whole picture. Missing out on building a reactor, the results of a delay in one plan vs another... It's pretty significant.

This is just to show that your fears are baseless. But trust me, they're also quite harmful.
 
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Enclave increases our access to Dandrisstech and Indigo Hammer tourists, while also leverage circumstances found nowhere else.

[X] Patrol rail lines
[X] Patrol forest
[X] Investigate raider causes
[X] Construct Special Building - Indigo Hammer Enclave (+1 Culture, +1 Economy, has the population to support 1 Entertainment Complex, Trading Post, or Factory. Adds special modifiers to supported building and opens up special opportunities. Cost: 20 Culture) Available until the end of Turn 10

[X] Seek a husband - Among the nobility one's spouse(s) is of importance for establishing allies and pedigree
[X] Study Will
[X] Activate Nightmare Cube

Remember last turn we got a reminder that we need to get married soon?
 
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Okay, let's try something else.

My position is that we should build a Hab first.
- Building the Hab a.s.a.p. is best for both the short and long term. It will allow us to build more buildings, sooner, which will increase our income, which will allow us to build more buildings, sooner, in a cycle.

The opposing position wants to build an Enclave first.
-Building an Enclave first, and a Hab second, secures a limited time resource for long-term benefits.


My argument against their position is that we should absolutely be able to build an Enclave after building a Hab, and so we gain the limited resource regardless. However, delaying the Hab provides a significant delay in settlement growth, where delaying the Enclave does not. Therefore, we should build the Hab first.

Anybody disagree with any of this? Care to continue it further? Feel I'm being unfair or misrepresenting either side?

Because as it stands, my side of the argument looks a lot better, and yet people keep voting the other way.

So am I missing something, or are they not considering the arguments?
 
Eugh... we should throw a party if we do a festival to combo those. I'm on the fence with Adler; we can't afford the personal actions a kid calls for until we get Politician IV imo, and his value as a military ally is uncertain.
Study Will isn't exciting, but we've started and, based on AN's IRC comments on stress being a mechanical thing we'll be told about, we should be transitioning to a two years on cube schedule and not be tied up with training too long.
I guess I want to secure Adler even if I don't expect timely use of him, then look to party or seek allies next turn and begin sustained effort on politics once Will is nearing completion.
I think redzonejoe has the right assessment of the enclave. If we're investigating raider causes and not throwing a party, though, I prefer an extra patrol rail lines over a festival. It ought to help our chances in those critical weeks we're absent.

[X] Patrol rail lines
[X] Patrol forest
[X] Investigate raider causes
[X] Patrol rail lines x2

[X] Study will
[X] Pursue Baron Malcolm Adler as an ally
[X] Activate Nightmare Cube
 
Culture 12 + 5 + 7 = 24
Economy 19 - 10 + 5 + 1 + 1 = 16
Science 5 + 3 = 8
Military 11 + 1 + 1 = 13

Above is the what we have in resources.

Below is what we can build right?

  • Hab (+1 Culture, +1 Economy, +1 Science, +1 Military) [Cost: 25 culture, 5 economy] [Note: new buildings cannot be constructed unless Habs compose at least ⅕ the active buildings]
  • Entertainment Complex (+3 Culture) [Cost: 20 culture]
  • Trading Post (+2 Economy, +1 Culture) [Cost: 15 economy, 5 culture]
  • Factory (+3 Economy, also required to produce more advanced goods) [Cost: 25 economy]
  • Reactor (+2 Economy, +1 Science) [Cost: 15 economy, 10 science]
  • Research Lab (+3 Science) [Cost: 15 science, 5 economy, 5 culture]
  • Proving Grounds (+1 Science, +2 Military) [Cost: 10 economy, 5 science, 5 military]
  • Barracks (+3 Military) [Cost: 15 military, 5 economy]
I think a barracks for extra soldiers is needed immideately. Quite honestly we can't seem to have 'too many' military units around.

So should we wait for next turn to constuct the barracks? Just trying to know what the feel of the thread is on that.
 
3man75 said:
Culture 12 + 5 + 7 = 24
Economy 19 - 10 + 5 + 1 + 1 = 16
Science 5 + 3 = 8
Military 11 + 1 + 1 = 13

Above is the what we have in resources.

Below is what we can build right?

  • Hab (+1 Culture, +1 Economy, +1 Science, +1 Military) [Cost: 25 culture, 5 economy] [Note: new buildings cannot be constructed unless Habs compose at least ⅕ the active buildings]
  • Entertainment Complex (+3 Culture) [Cost: 20 culture]
  • Trading Post (+2 Economy, +1 Culture) [Cost: 15 economy, 5 culture]
  • Factory (+3 Economy, also required to produce more advanced goods) [Cost: 25 economy]
  • Reactor (+2 Economy, +1 Science) [Cost: 15 economy, 10 science]
  • Research Lab (+3 Science) [Cost: 15 science, 5 economy, 5 culture]
  • Proving Grounds (+1 Science, +2 Military) [Cost: 10 economy, 5 science, 5 military]
  • Barracks (+3 Military) [Cost: 15 military, 5 economy]
I think a barracks for extra soldiers is needed immideately. Quite honestly we can't seem to have 'too many' military units around.

So should we wait for next turn to constuct the barracks? Just trying to know what the feel of the thread is on that.
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We're at negative 1 popcap. The only structure we can build is something which raises that, like the enclave
 
[X] Patrol rail lines
[X] Patrol forest
[X] Investigate raider causes
[X] Construct Special Building - Indigo Hammer Enclave (+1 Culture, +1 Economy, has the population to support 1 Entertainment Complex, Trading Post, or Factory. Adds special modifiers to supported building and opens up special opportunities. Cost: 20 Culture) Available until the end of Turn 10

[X] Study Willpower
[X] Pursue Baron Malcolm Adler as an ally
[X] Activate Nightmare Cube
 
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