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Knight of Dandriss: Stone and Steel

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[X] In vitro conception, natural gestation (Mech squadron topped off to full, guaranteed conception, small chance of complications)
[X] Have the ex-nomads focus on working with the trading post to bring in more exotic goods (+1 Science Influence, retroactive)
 
[x] Natural conception and gestation (Mech squadron topped off to full, Military influence expended refunded, increased chance of fulfilling baron's ambitions later, chance of annoying the baron's wife, chance of failing to conceive this year, chance of complications)
[x] Have the ex-nomads focus on working with the trading post to bring in more exotic goods (+1 Science Influence, retroactive)
 
George said:
We can work on a networked hab there and stagger it with our efforts here. It won't be a big delay. With one hab it takes them quite a while to earn a building after all.
I want an early lab there to define the culture, personally. Maybe 3 years from now, as our first building there.
I think we should build a Barracks at home soon.

I'm more concerned about blocks at Stonebridge than at Razorleaf because I still harbor hope of a District rush.
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I would've thought the networked hab needs to be in the same settlement as the basic buildings that are letting it buff. If we want to get the full +6 to all 4 Influence types on an influence block, we should REALLY be doing our network center in Razorleaf. Building networking in Stonebridge will only make sense when it's thoroughly built up.
 
Academia Nut said:
You would be better off firing nearly anything else as a payload since you're basically firing inert chaff at them, and Dandriss life still dies without an adequate atmosphere. Dandriss screws with them because its basically an entire planet of a hall of mirrors, so by that logic firing shards of glass at tanks is a great idea since it mildly confuses the gunners when you have a lot of mirrors all together. So no, you will not because its not a productive use of time in any way.
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Why you gotta kill my dreams of Space Dragons? :(
 
Ekans Ekans Ekans said:
I would've thought the networked hab needs to be in the same settlement as the basic buildings that are letting it buff. If we want to get the full +6 to all 4 Influence types on an influence block, we should REALLY be doing our network center in Razorleaf. Building networking in Stonebridge will only make sense when it's thoroughly built up.
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Yes by hab rush I mean building 4 Habs 1 lab 1 factory 1 entertainment complex 1 barracks and then 1 network center all in Stonebridge over an objectively long but relatively short period of time.
 
Academia Nut said:
Actually, that's on top of the influence refund, which is why I said that natural conception increases the chances that Malcolm will be able to get the aerospace academy later.
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redzonejoe said:
The vote lists that as two separate effects.

"Military influence expended refunded, increased chance of fulfilling baron's ambitions later"

Also, I'm considering using the military influence to build a barracks in the second village. Our first village can be spec'd for economy and culture, our second for military.

Both would have enough science to promote expansion, without science being a primary focus.

Edit: :ninja:
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Not quite what I'd meant, though I realize I'd misread you somewhat. I thought you were wondering what we'd get in return for that increased chance of his success, which, now that I look at it, is probably the mindless mistake that will crop up after 30-odd hours awake and trying to recover from jet lag.
 
Now that I'm a little more able, I want to ask why everyone particularly wants to get the trading post linked to the nomad enclave? We do know that it provides other, less immediately tangible benefits regardless of our choice, but why focus so strongly on the trading post when we can see that it could also be applied to an entertainment complex or barracks if we're patient?
 
Powerofmind said:
Now that I'm a little more able, I want to ask why everyone particularly wants to get the trading post linked to the nomad enclave? We do know that it provides other, less immediately tangible benefits regardless of our choice, but why focus so strongly on the trading post when we can see that it could also be applied to an entertainment complex or barracks if we're patient?
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(Formerly) Nomadic traders, providing a strong link to exotic indigo goods?

Something like that.

Also, barracks? Factory gives +1 military, barracks isn't a known option.

Anyways, all three provide their own benefits, but the trade post doubles as our foreign outreach program, so sticking the nomads on there feels natural.

Not a fan of the entertainment complex alternative, and while the factory is another decent choice, I'm more interested in exotic trade over whatever production benefit might result in +1 military.

Then again, how does the trade give us science? Whatever man, immediate benefit is immediate, let's grab it.
 
redzonejoe said:
(Formerly) Nomadic traders, providing a strong link to exotic indigo goods?

Something like that.

Also, barracks? Factory gives +1 military, barracks isn't a known option.

Anyways, all three provide their own benefits, but the trade post doubles as our foreign outreach program, so sticking the nomads on there feels natural.

Not a fan of the entertainment complex alternative, and while the factory is another decent choice, I'm more interested in exotic trade over whatever production benefit might result in +1 military.

Then again, how does the trade give us science? Whatever man, immediate benefit is immediate, let's grab it.
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I suppose we are in a bind for immediate rewards with how many long term, up-front expenses we've just dumped on ourselves. Mostly I want to make sure it's not being bandwagoned for the sake of bandwagon, and that it's been considered we can potentially receive other benefits (again, the factory/barracks error is the result of jet lag and every update in the past week being read on mobile only).

We know that IH workers will be a sort of diplomatic inroad we can use to get access to otherwise exclusive IH goods, and their exotic, bio-engineered nature is probably the cause of the Sci gain (one of the first things that is traded in any situation like this is ideas and methods, which naturally propagates sciences). What we haven't considered is what other buildings could potentially reward us with in that intangible way. If a factory is creating Mil influence, it's probably because they're producing and using higher quantities of raw materials we don't normally use, which means that it would give a more extreme, but more narrow, benefit in the sense of 'exotic goods' for future events. The entertainment complex is at least somewhat obvious, in that it gives those not already in the diplomatic corps the ability to experience IH without being there. Despite the relative bleh of the influence bonus, it's probably even better for diplomatic relations than the trade post since it helps understand the smaller cultural tics that might speed along negotiations.

But really I'm just here to foster debate about the 100% of votes choice.
 
Powerofmind said:
But really I'm just here to foster debate about the 100% of votes choice.
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Always a noble goal.
I suppose we are in a bind for immediate rewards with how many long term, up-front expenses we've just dumped on ourselves. Mostly I want to make sure it's not being bandwagoned for the sake of bandwagon, and that it's been considered we can potentially receive other benefits (again, the factory/barracks error is the result of jet lag and every update in the past week being read on mobile only).

We know that IH workers will be a sort of diplomatic inroad we can use to get access to otherwise exclusive IH goods, and their exotic, bio-engineered nature is probably the cause of the Sci gain (one of the first things that is traded in any situation like this is ideas and methods, which naturally propagates sciences). What we haven't considered is what other buildings could potentially reward us with in that intangible way. If a factory is creating Mil influence, it's probably because they're producing and using higher quantities of raw materials we don't normally use, which means that it would give a more extreme, but more narrow, benefit in the sense of 'exotic goods' for future events. The entertainment complex is at least somewhat obvious, in that it gives those not already in the diplomatic corps the ability to experience IH without being there. Despite the relative bleh of the influence bonus, it's probably even better for diplomatic relations than the trade post since it helps understand the smaller cultural tics that might speed along negotiations
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I'm imagining these options give us a persistent bonus, which is reflected by the influence bonus, and chances for random events.

The +1 science is a decent bonus. Not necessarily the best, but it's a contender. Science is valuable.

The events that the nomad trading post might unlock, however, are likely to be the most varied and impactful. That's the real reason why I'm voting trade post. Even were all three options available right now, I'd choose trade post.

Unfortunately the best we can do is speculation, so I can't really support my claims with anything but conjecture, but that's how I feel about the situation.

If we get a second nomad building later, the factory/trade post synergy ought to be neat.
 
redzonejoe said:
Always a noble goal.

I'm imagining these options give us a persistent bonus, which is reflected by the influence bonus, and chances for random events.

The +1 science is a decent bonus. Not necessarily the best, but it's a contender. Science is valuable.

The events that the nomad trading post might unlock, however, are likely to be the most varied and impactful. That's the real reason why I'm voting trade post. Even were all three options available right now, I'd choose trade post.

Unfortunately the best we can do is speculation, so I can't really support my claims with anything but conjecture, but that's how I feel about the situation.

If we get a second nomad building later, the factory/trade post synergy ought to be neat.
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I still want the Trading Post block representing us and three others.
 
[x] Natural conception and gestation (Mech squadron topped off to full, Military influence expended refunded, increased chance of fulfilling baron's ambitions later, chance of annoying the baron's wife, chance of failing to conceive this year, chance of complications)
[x] Have the ex-nomads focus on working with the trading post to bring in more exotic goods (+1 Science Influence, retroactive)

We get sex, we get robots. Win-win.
 
Alright, so biowarfare.

We should have the Lavender Wrenches fuck around with plants and/or dragons until they come up with something that will release a pollen that will grow plants inside of the Mantis. Also maybe zombify them.

Something that will take a while to show, so we can use the troops being landed as infection vectors for the rest of the fleet.
 
redzonejoe said:
It's hard to strike a balance between optimising razorleaf and beginning production in whatever the second place is called. Is it that Diamond place or is that the name of the local hub city?

Economy, culture, and science are all tied up in finishing a building plan for Razorleaf meadows. More Habs, labs, factories, finishing up blocks...

The only thing we're not saving up to spend as soon as we can is military, hence wanting to build the barracks. The minor economy cost there is negligible.

Like I said before, we're going to want at least one of each of the major +3 buildings, so entertainment complex, factory, lab and barracks. I just think barracks is easiest to build at the moment, and it's not necessary to build one in razorleaf anytime soon, unlike a factory or lab.
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Stonebridge adds to our influence; it doesn't actually delay our Razorleaf build plan versus what it would have been to build there. Further, I fully expect pressures to be seen as fair and equal in our management. I've said this before, but between these I think it's important to build something there between three and five turns from now. Additionally, I believe that what we start with will set the tone for the settlement and that following up on that tone would be beneficial.
As to the building plan for Razorleaf meadows, I believe a single lab and factory are called for; not multiples. Due to the war I am potentially willing to go for a barracks block as far as slots, but getting it in time for it to do anything would require conversion that I hesitate to commit to. As to finishing up blocks, I think we have enough Culture influence income that the efficiency of an Entertainment Complex Block is not worth the inefficiency of it just not producing the influence we need. I believe Habs are a better investment of Culture influence at this point even when they are not needed for population. A Reactor Block would be nice, but they take twice as long to pay off their science investment so, now that we have 40 building slots total before we have to excavate and then 80 potential excavations alongside a more pressing need for polity research, I believe we should get Research Labs rolling - specifically in Stonebridge where there is potential for an early District of them - and fill in the Reactor Block after one lab is built in Razorleaf and a block is built in Stonebridge.


I honestly don't understand why you think a factory and lab in Razorleaf are necessary to build soon compared to a barracks when we're in war times. What benefits do you expect there? I assume you aren't talking about influence since 'necessary' is a bit much for influence concerns and it wouldn't really need to be location specific on things we're liable to build in both locations before we're ready to build a Network Center.



Now that I think about it, the implications of the wartime economy seem to be that converting Culture/Economy over to Military and expanding our Barracks is the baseline political expectation and that not doing so would cause problems while rushing a Barracks Block would reap rewards.
I see, essentially, three ways to contribute to the war effort:
  1. Build up Research Labs aggressively to contribute to beating the Mantis back down the line
  2. Rush Barracks Block(s) to contribute a staging ground to the coming ground war
  3. Work on the Reactor Block and Hab Block alongside the Factory to get a Foundry and the income to use it and contribute material assets to the coming ground war
 
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George said:
I honestly don't understand why you think a factory and lab in Razorleaf are necessary to build soon compared to a barracks when we're in war times. What benefits do you expect there?
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Because we'll be able to build a Network Center long before we'd be able to finish a barracks block. A network center is actually a mid-term goal at this point, and it gives a lot of income, and is likely to have ancillary benefits of its own.

If you actually mean a single barracks versus a single lab and a single factory - mostly, we don't have to pick between these. (Well, building the lab and the barracks will stall the factory and the network center a bit, but we might end up short on actions or have unexpected expenses anyway, so that's not huge.) If you want to put the barracks in Stone Bridge, *shrug* I don't consider that a problem; it's not like that would stop us from building a second one in Razorleaf after the Network Center goes up.
 
Academia Nut said:
You would be better off firing nearly anything else as a payload since you're basically firing inert chaff at them, and Dandriss life still dies without an adequate atmosphere. Dandriss screws with them because its basically an entire planet of a hall of mirrors, so by that logic firing shards of glass at tanks is a great idea since it mildly confuses the gunners when you have a lot of mirrors all together. So no, you will not because its not a productive use of time in any way.
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At this point we have all of the great powers, including the Belters, at the table willing and even desperate to coordinate a response before the Remnant falls. The Belters have the know-how to build and operate warships, Green Owl has a huge economy, large laser and energy generation technology, experienced military, and at least crude nukes since Dia's time, Indigo Hammer has the ability to grow giant armored hollow skyscraper trees capable of laughing off multiple great firestorms, and at this point everybody's been familiarized with the propulsion concept by the Mantis colony ship kamikaze run. Plus, Anna seems belligerent enough to not only go for it, but to ride the tip during launch while swinging her sword and cursing the heavens.

Can we do coconut-punk Orion warships now? Do we have any officers named Gilligan?



Deadly Snark said:
Why you gotta kill my dreams of Space Dragons? :(
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...the dragons actually might work. They're not "natural" Dandriss-life, and they power themselves and their blatantly supernatural abilities, perhaps most importantly reactionless propulsion, with nearly inexhaustible self-contained power sources.

With the right research we might actually be able to build spaceships which are basically wooden chariots being pulled along by teams of fire-breathing dragons with a heavy mech holding the reins.

We're getting into Discworld territory.
 
Candesce said:
Because we'll be able to build a Network Center long before we'd be able to finish a barracks block. A network center is actually a mid-term goal at this point, and it gives a lot of income, and is likely to have ancillary benefits of its own.

If you actually mean a single barracks versus a single lab and a single factory - mostly, we don't have to pick between these. (Well, building the lab and the barracks will stall the factory and the network center a bit, but we might end up short on actions or have unexpected expenses anyway, so that's not huge.) If you want to put the barracks in Stone Bridge, *shrug* I don't consider that a problem; it's not like that would stop us from building a second one in Razorleaf after the Network Center goes up.
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I do mean a single barracks there, and I want to put the barracks in Razorleaf, not Stonebridge; rzj wants to put the barracks there to throw them a bone, I believe.
A Network Center and its attendant Hab Block and +3 buildings takes rather a long time. Eight or ten turns. Given the military economy, we absolutely could manage a Barracks Block far sooner; it's 100 total influence for a Barracks Block while the Network Center is 50, finishing the Hab Block is 90, and the Lab+Factory are 50.
Lailoken said:
The Belters have the know-how to build and operate warships
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This is false. They didn't actually understand the science fully and relied on now-destroyed STC blueprints.
 
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George said:
This is false. They didn't actually understand the science fully and relied on now-destroyed STC blueprints.
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They've still got a lot of basic know-how and hands-on knowledge for the systems and general operations involved. If the construction and hugely complex drives aren't an issue and we already have fall-backs for the weapons and life-support systems the biggest issue is figuring out how to put it all together quickly, which is something they can help with. They can provide or train the bridge officers and consult on the design, IH and Green Owl can provide the engineers, and IH and Green Owl can spam-build them with technical or economic assistance from the Authority and Blackthorn.
 
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Lailoken said:
They've still got a lot of basic know-how for the systems and general operations involved. If the construction and hugely complex drives aren't an issue and we already have fall-backs for the weapons and life-support systems the biggest issue is figuring out how to put it all together quickly, which is something they can help with. They can provide or train the bridge officers and consult on the design, IH and Green Owl can provide the engineers, and IH and Green Owl can spam-build them with technical or economic assistance from the Authority and Blackthorn.
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Alright, I can see how they're a valuable technical asset, but it's still an absolutely enormous undertaking and everyone being at this table to discuss the threat doesn't translate to worldwide unity in building a fleet of spaceships.
 
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