they are saying that their subordinates need to come up with a good idea they can deliver to their boss for a bonus otherwise they will fire their subordinates and hire cheaper immigrants to get said bonus instead
General Exalted Thread
- Location
- Washington
A question, if someone might be so kind as to assist me. The ST for my group decided that while they did want to bring Sidereal Martial Arts into the game, they also didn't feel like giving them to Infernals. I support that decision fully, as my character is focusing on Infernal Monster Style and its expansions. However, the ST decided to get on my nerves by asking a question of sorts.
If Sidereal Martial Arts are created when the principles of martial arts are applied to mystical phenomena, what about when the principles of martial arts are applied to Primordial phenomena? Is it possible to create a set of Sidereal-tier MA styles based around emulating how a Primordial might fight? Such as punches with the force of continents, single attacks that become flurries because a Primordial is hitting you with all of its devas/demons at the same time, etc.?
Well, the ST decided that this particular question's answer was a resounding yes. He also decided that my Infernal was responsible for creating them as a contribution to the Reclamation, now that I have the Ascendancy Mantle of Cecelyne putting me at E6, and a solid base with a well-defended Cult.
Well, long story short, I got convinced that the ST had the ability to say that my Infernal was keeping himself busy working on developing Martial Arts specifically based around taking the themes of Primordials being many beings at the same time, too vast to be contained in one soul, with one of their bodies being a world with all the phenomena you'd expect from a world, then told me to start working on Charms. However, my own skills in that area are...not what I'm looking for here, at least to start a style. Is anyone capable of helping me with this problem, perhaps by at least giving me a general ballpark as to the mechanical effects, mote costs, and so on, even if only providing the starting Charms? I can work from there as needed. Thank you for your time.
If Sidereal Martial Arts are created when the principles of martial arts are applied to mystical phenomena, what about when the principles of martial arts are applied to Primordial phenomena? Is it possible to create a set of Sidereal-tier MA styles based around emulating how a Primordial might fight? Such as punches with the force of continents, single attacks that become flurries because a Primordial is hitting you with all of its devas/demons at the same time, etc.?
Well, the ST decided that this particular question's answer was a resounding yes. He also decided that my Infernal was responsible for creating them as a contribution to the Reclamation, now that I have the Ascendancy Mantle of Cecelyne putting me at E6, and a solid base with a well-defended Cult.
Well, long story short, I got convinced that the ST had the ability to say that my Infernal was keeping himself busy working on developing Martial Arts specifically based around taking the themes of Primordials being many beings at the same time, too vast to be contained in one soul, with one of their bodies being a world with all the phenomena you'd expect from a world, then told me to start working on Charms. However, my own skills in that area are...not what I'm looking for here, at least to start a style. Is anyone capable of helping me with this problem, perhaps by at least giving me a general ballpark as to the mechanical effects, mote costs, and so on, even if only providing the starting Charms? I can work from there as needed. Thank you for your time.
"No... and there's no point to it anyway".
The thing is, not only are Infernals not great martial artists as per 2e/2.5e RAW, but they have no real reason to care. Form-Type martial arts forms are fighting for their Form-Type slot with Shintais, and Shintais are better. Infernal native combat charms are largely method agnostic - they don't care if you're punching them or swording them. Infernal combat suites are more esoteric than Solar ones and equally potent, so there's no gain to learning SMAs - hell, there's no real advantage to Solars or Abyssals learning them either assuming a properly balanced SMA [1]. Even the GSP splat martial art isn't really a GSP martial art - it's an akuma martial art that they just are able to learn. Infernal Monster Style is a great martial art - just for people who aren't GSPs, who have better Malfeas Charms for ignoring pain, better Adorjan Charms for running towards their foes, and the Form Charm is basically obsolete with the GSP condition and Effortless (Yozi) Dominance.
Fortunately, there is a way for Infernals to punch with the force of a continent. It's called "Native Yozi Charms". That stuff is entirely within theme for them. Just make a Malfeas Charm which references how he'll smash layers together in his rage, and voila! You've got a high damage Knockdown effect which slams them into the ground. No need to bring Martial Arts into things.
[1] And for my next trick, I'll also assume a unicorn.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
I suspect Kenainath is past the point of deciding whether to do this thing, though. It reads like their ST has taken the matter far enough that it's a fait accompli, and they want advice in actually designing an SMA.
- Location
- Washington
Tried telling that to my ST. He replied that if Infernal Martial Arts weren't great, then they should be improved. Usually, he sets up situations where characters are actually likely to have to specialize in their Caste's abilities, trying to keep what you might expect from the basic description of that Caste. So, my Slayer keeps on running into situations where I need to pick up dots in Melee, Archery, War, Martial Arts, and Thrown to deal with them, though I do get some indulgence on my Craft and Occult. However, in this case, he's offering the style up to the Form for free in terms of XP, and I consider it worth it to have an ST who stops putting me in positions where I'm doing what I'm really, really not good at. He also wants me to create it as a martial art that explicitly integrates Primordial themes, Yozi Charms, and Martial Arts effects to create something that meets a SMA on reasonably even terms.
I'm also being told that my character doesn't get any new Yozi Charms until he works on creating a 'Primordial Martial Art,' and due to certain agreements we made about the ST's creative freedom, he can actually do that. I would prefer just to get this particular bit of annoyance over and done with, because right now, my choices are rage quit or get to work on new Charms, and I'm not at the threshold where option one is my decision.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
This is an important caveat I think, and it would be best if you unpacked this point.
Is your ST aware of how much of a broken mess canon SMA's are and wants you to make something on the order of a balanced SMA, or is he expecting you to make something that can challenge Obsidian Shards of Infinity Style?
- Location
- Washington
Exactly. I don't have a choice on this anymore. Either I get four or five Martial Arts Charms at SMA-tier for free, or I get no new Charms, period, until I give up, design the Charms, and pay the XP. The Martial Art is meant to incorporate Yozi Charms as prerequisites, at least for the opening to the style. Then it starts growing into something that describes an entire world deciding that you're a threat and trying in earnest to kill you by dropping mountains on you, ripping open the earth to plunge you into molten stone, and collapsing a continent around you. Swarms of demons or devas attacking you are also a theme that I'm expected to integrate. This is meant to embody the themes of a world going to war in all its primal glory.
- Location
- Washington
Essentially, something that can meet a balanced SMA on even terms is what's expected, though he did say that the style would at some point be expected to have expansions developed along specific Yozi themes that let me challenge things like Obsidian Shards of Infinity within those themes and meet them as their equal, or under very specific and limited circumstances, their better. For example, meeting an Obsidian Shards of Infinity stylist on even terms would be expected to happen only when my character was using something along the lines of the pinnacle of a Mardukth or Malfeas style, in a mountainous area or city created by his Charms, with a decent army backing him up. Given that my Slayer actually favors Mardukth, I might manage this. Also, the Infernal would need a decent panoply of artifacts, Essence aplenty to burn, and a fair amount of XP sunk into the Charms of other Primordials and their branches of this Martial Art. Each expansion tree would have its own Shintai that expressed the themes of that Primordial in a highly martial manner. Expect meeting a foe with some of the more broken SMAs on an even level to occur when a character has two or three expansions complete.
Mardukth would be using the Charms of Reminiscent Oasis, in this case.
- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Is your ST aware, that making anything that is remotely at the same level as Obsidian Shards will bring his campaign to a wailing, grinding, screeching halt as it desperately claws for survival, railing against the horrible, horrible brokenness inherent to the Obsidian Shards of Infinity?
- Location
- Washington
True, but every Primordial has a world-body in some manner. The ST decided that was good enough to justify a GSP developing something like this, especially with them developing into Primordials eventually. Also, the Gaia expansion of this particular concept, at least so far as I've been able to think about it, would include things like this.
The Wyld Hunt has cornered an Infernal in a forest. He's surrounded by archers, Dragon Blooded, and elite soldiers, outnumbered hundreds to one. Then the Infernal takes a combat stance, ready to go into battle, and the forest starts trying to kill the Wyld Hunt. Flowers bloom on every tree, releasing plant-based toxins. Twigs and leaves become arrows as trees fling them at the enemy. Roots start grabbing them and dragging them underground, growing through them, or into the trees. Bushes grow thorns and rip soldiers apart.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
...
Okay, as far as making an SMA goes, the best advice I can offer you is that @Revlid has made a couple in the past, so perhaps they could talk about their design process to give you a leg up, and maybe link to the SMA's they've made for comparison purposes.
That said, allow me to be blunt: The picture that you paint of your Storyteller is that of a kitten-huffing lunatic, and I urge you to consider this a social problem with how your ST is treating your playtime and your character, to be solved by having a discussion with them instead of making this kind of homebrew. You might not be considering rage-quitting now, but I suspect the atmosphere at your table will be healthier overall if you can hash this out reasonably amicably before things reach that point.
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- Location
- Washington
At the same level after a lot of spent XP, under very specific circumstances, and he considers challenges like that amusing. Basically, so far as he's concerned, the risks are worth it in order to enjoy this particular flavor of GSP expansion into a domain that was otherwise closed to them, breaking the limits on them just as any good Solaroid should in his opinion.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
If he wants you to start developing something along the lines of a world body or similar, I think it was Plague of Hats or JiveX that did some rather awesome charms that slowly started you along that path while staying rather balanced.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
Normally I'm all aboard the SMA train, @Kenainath , but the environment you're stuck in just seems... Terribad.
- Location
- Washington
He's good at making the story interesting, but at points he gets...irritating. I challenge them when I think it will do any good, and I've won more than a few arguments in the past. But in this case, having that argument would be...counterproductive. He can be reasonable, but sometimes he digs his heels in hard, and this is one of those times. Considering that I've run out of patience with Sidereal-supported Wyld Hunts where I actually need something of an SMA tier capability to meet the enemy on terms that don't see me in deep trouble, which my character has been lucky enough to survive twice, once by luring Leviathan into the fight and letting the elder Lunar deal with the Sidereal, I'm not going to the trouble of dealing with this bit of insanity. I was lucky to have spent significant amounts of time developing good relations with the Silver Pact, to the point where it only cost me a minor favor to pay for Leviathan's help...which still took three sessions to complete, and involved running an NPC coven to conduct retaliation against Skullstone.
... Obsidian Shard of Infinity has a Charm that literally says "You Win."
Okay, not quite literally, in that that's not a direct quote from the text, but Breathing on the Black Mirror lets you automatically win fights, if you're willing to accept a Paradox Flaw for it.
Like, what the hell.
Okay, not quite literally, in that that's not a direct quote from the text, but Breathing on the Black Mirror lets you automatically win fights, if you're willing to accept a Paradox Flaw for it.
Like, what the hell.
- Location
- Washington
World-body is something my Infernal has already begun. This Martial Art is designed to emulate how a world-body can be used for direct combat without actually having one fully manifested, coupled with the hosts of First, Second, and Third Circles any Primordial has available to them.
Okay, um, productive advice... honestly I'll leave most of this to the usual suspects, Revlid/ES/Shyft and all...
Um. Probably the first thing in the tree should be something like "Presence Overwhelming Presence Method", that just makes you big. Things hit you trivially when they target big areas, but you also just don't need to move to hit things thirty feet away from you.
Expand from there - this is a Martial Art about fighting armies, so, uh, actually you might end up needing to homebrew yourself some mass combat rules that actually work? I mean, fundamentally Primordials are set pieces, you wouldn't ever have a Primordial fighting a single Exalt, its Souls would do it. Even the jouten form is more of a force of nature... And if you're borrowing that model then you're going to inherit that weakness, in that all your attacks (and your defenses, too) are oriented around lots of little insects.
Mm. I really think that this isn't something you can do purely on a narrative level - you're going to need to first solve the narrative problem that the Primordials can't even think on the scale of mere ants before you can build Charms that involve them fighting ants. Something like the opposite of "size matters not"?
Mm, that could be a path - something aping Cecylene or She Who Lives in Her Name, that bends an army's effort towards a single person.
Um. Probably the first thing in the tree should be something like "Presence Overwhelming Presence Method", that just makes you big. Things hit you trivially when they target big areas, but you also just don't need to move to hit things thirty feet away from you.
Expand from there - this is a Martial Art about fighting armies, so, uh, actually you might end up needing to homebrew yourself some mass combat rules that actually work? I mean, fundamentally Primordials are set pieces, you wouldn't ever have a Primordial fighting a single Exalt, its Souls would do it. Even the jouten form is more of a force of nature... And if you're borrowing that model then you're going to inherit that weakness, in that all your attacks (and your defenses, too) are oriented around lots of little insects.
Mm. I really think that this isn't something you can do purely on a narrative level - you're going to need to first solve the narrative problem that the Primordials can't even think on the scale of mere ants before you can build Charms that involve them fighting ants. Something like the opposite of "size matters not"?
Mm, that could be a path - something aping Cecylene or She Who Lives in Her Name, that bends an army's effort towards a single person.
- Location
- Washington
That one is likely to find itself meeting something about 'you've won, but now there's a Primordial that's reformed after fetich-death, which has been combat-specced to kill you, and that trick won't work on it again for a while,' probably giving something like Driven Beyond Death, though some instant regeneration to go with it, bonuses against the opponent that beat me, penalties for them, and a short-term counter to Breathing on the Black Mirror that, if they disengaged immediately and ran, would fade, but if they stuck around, they'd find themselves facing a pissed off Primordial that has reformed solely to kill them...painfully.
Mrrgh. Maybe start with the Ebon Dragon, he can do individual humans. All the Evils of the World is kind of, uh, cliche for him, I'm sure @EarthScorpion is going to jump down my throat any minute now about how he's not a mindless traitorbot, but it's probably still a decent starting point... Alternate shadow clones? Making Personae, the true selves?
Then, @Kenainath, I cannot help you. Because by all indications, your ST is a railroading asshole who's got no sense of mechanical balance and who is rampaging all over the social contract like Isidoros.
Like, wow, what the fuck, stopping you buying your own fucking Native Charms. No. Fuck that.
You're an Infernal. Your native Essence 6 Charms should be competitive with any Essence 6 SMA, and also be easier to get (because Native), easier to learn (because Native), and not tied up in a Martial Arts tree (because not Martial Arts). If the ST has such a Martial Arts boner that he's banning you from buying your own fucking Native charms until you, out of character, write him a whole new Charm tree and you're very uncomfortable with that...
... then that person needs an intervention. Fast.
Like, wow, what the fuck, stopping you buying your own fucking Native Charms. No. Fuck that.
You're an Infernal. Your native Essence 6 Charms should be competitive with any Essence 6 SMA, and also be easier to get (because Native), easier to learn (because Native), and not tied up in a Martial Arts tree (because not Martial Arts). If the ST has such a Martial Arts boner that he's banning you from buying your own fucking Native charms until you, out of character, write him a whole new Charm tree and you're very uncomfortable with that...
... then that person needs an intervention. Fast.
- Location
- Washington
Yeah, becoming big is the logical first step to this, and I've been thinking about that. Also, mass combat rules are a thing I've been working on since I got this particular irritation attached to me. As for the single person thing...don't worry, Malfeas can hate all of you personally in addition to hating you in general. Additionally, the Ebon Dragon just loves devoting his personal attention to making each person suffer in a new and perfectly tailored to them manner. And Adorjan can love everyone.
Jon Chung
=][=
Your GM is crazy. You are presumably not a competent game developer, or you would have told him that he is crazy. He is not a competent game developer, or he would have either built this himself or not bothered with this madness beyond the "Hey I had an idea" to "No, that's insane" filtering stage.
Leave the game, dude.
- Location
- Washington
Yes, it's annoying as all hell. And yes, he is trampling over privileges that my group agreed to allow, but he's usually fairly good about arguments like this. Interventions have been pulled before. However, I've known him for long enough that I know when he's dug his heels in hard. This is such a case, and I'll make it extraordinarily clear to him that this wasn't something he can ever pull again after I deal with the insanity of having to formulate something like this. Once that's done, he's going to come to his senses enough that I can come down hard in response, but before I get work done on this pet project, he'll just push harder, and this is not something that I care to start a massive fight over when I see him enough that I have to live with the shockwaves.