Can all you helpful people please direct me to who made Martial Arts Styles work as Artifacts to be attuned instead, and post itself? I distinctly someone posting the mechanics of Martial Arts as Artifacts, but I can't remember who or where it was posted.
 
... with thaumaturgy. Which we are basing on the Style system (so Demon Beckoning is thaum based on Occult "knowledge about demons" Styles, for instance). But we haven't mechanised that yet, and are still considering things like balance and implementation.

The problem is that this level of detail leads to either:

a) a system so bloated and granular that it takes forever to do anything, or
b) a system with a ridiculously complex combat system that means fights take forever, and very little granularity anywhere else, which means that anyone who values their time is incentivised to avoid combat like the plague, or possibly like the Pathfinder Grappling rulebook.

Why should combat be so granular when, say, Craft gives not one shit about whether you use nails or screws in making something? Because that's the same level of granularity as "what exact technique do you use?", and even the bloated Craft system doesn't go that deep. If we're mechanising the whole game on that level, then you should be going into minute detail about the tax laws you're trying to set up with the Bureaucracy system, and it takes four hours or so to play through five minutes of game time no matter what you're doing.

And if it's only the combat system that goes to that level of granularity; why is that the case? Because as it stands, a 10-turn fight that represents less than a minute of in-game time can take more than an hour of OOC play to hash out, which is fucking ridiculous.
Aleph, you do know that some people actually enjoy that, right? That some people don't consider that sort of combat wasted time? I enjoy Exalted combat. It would be nice if it took less time. But as it stands? 3e combat is genuinely fun. I don't consider spending three hours on it to be wasted time. I like the granularity. I like the picking the exact stuff I'm doing, finding awesome combos of Charms that lets me add threshold sux to my decisive damage roll, and then my attack roll adds one success, rerolls ones, and doubles nines on the roll so that for 15m,2wp I can end up rolling 40 damage dice and absolutely end my opponent at the height of our epic duel.

This is something I love about Exalted. I understand this bores the hell out of you, but you often talk about it like you don't understand why its written like that. It's written like that because there's an audience who enjoys that. I would find a combat system simplified down to be a lot more boring. Some people like super complex combat! The developers of the edition happen to be some of those people.

I'm not trying to persuade you that you should like how combat works, I understand you won't, but what you're saying really does read like you are completely discounting the people who enjoy big complex fight scenes. And like...they exist, and I'm one of them, and so are the devs of Exalted and a good chunk of my friends. I even do test combats for fun!
 
Aleph, you do know that some people actually enjoy that, right?
I know that, yes, and I'm not discounting it. What I'm asking is why, if the combat system is that granular, it isn't a general quality of the game mechanics, across the board. Why is the Craft system not also that granular - not complex in terms of Charms, but granular at the base level? Why is the Bureaucracy system non-existent not just as detailed and action-by-action based? Why is binding a demon resolved in one roll, when killing it has a 10-step process for each attack?

Presumably there are people who would find all of these systems fun to work through as well, and Exalted prided itself on not just being a "kill things and loot their stuff" dungeon crawler, so why is combat the only system with so much depth to it? It's not supposed to be the most important part of the game - the original intent, even if they never pulled it off mechanically, is that you should progress to nation-building and ruling and big, large-scale downtime stuff far beyond punching people in the face. And yet the focus of game effort is overwhelmingly on face-punching, which rather tosses that original intent out of the window.

I'm not saying that it being this way is an Objectively Bad Thing. I'm calling attention to the fact that it is an anomaly, and that a vast amount of game complexity and resolution time is sunk into combat that simply does not exist anywhere else.
Could someone answer this without snarking?
An OC shipper who attacks people with steel chakrams (or donuts of steel), who lets you onto your ship if you approve of nonsense words like "Yuunoha" or "Shieldshock" or "Destiel", and whose daughters are her, with things she's taken from other characters - and although she pretends they're separate, when it comes down to it they do exactly what she wants them to.

And an archetype of every bland shonen character/harem protagonist ever, who makes characters around him super-special and interesting with his gifts then subjugates them to his plotline, who's always the underdog pulling off a shonen-esque victory (by punching people in the face), who never actively does anything and only ever reacts, and whose escape condition triggers when Sailor Moon runs into him because she's dashing down the street with a slice of toast in her mouth.
 
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I know that, yes, and I'm not discounting it. What I'm asking is why, if the combat system is that granular, it isn't a general quality of the game mechanics, across the board. Why is the Craft system not also that granular - not complex in terms of Charms, but granular at the base level? Why is the Bureaucracy system non-existent not just as detailed and action-by-action based? Why is binding a demon resolved in one roll, when killing it has a 10-step process for each attack? Presumably there are people who would find all of these systems fun to work through as well, and Exalted prided itself on not just being a "kill things and loot their stuff" dungeon crawler, so why is combat the only system with so much depth to it?

I'm not saying that it being this way is an Objectively Bad Thing. I'm calling attention to the fact that it is an anomaly, and that a vast amount of game complexity and resolution time is sunk into combat that simply does not exist anywhere else.

I think the wild success of "kill things and take their stuff" gameplay in general suggests that actually lots of people really do find granular combat much more interesting than granular (other subsystem). Even among people who are avoiding something like D&D, they may just hold that feeling less strongly rather than having rejected it altogether.

(I don't think your choices are wrong, just that the preference of a big chunk of the playerbase doesn't really surprise me.)
 
I think the wild success of "kill things and take their stuff" gameplay in general suggests that actually lots of people really do find granular combat much more interesting than granular (other subsystem). Even among people who are avoiding something like D&D, they may just hold that feeling less strongly rather than having rejected it altogether.

(I don't think your choices are wrong, just that the preference of a big chunk of the playerbase doesn't really surprise me.)
I'm reminded of that time @MJ12 Commando proposed an Exalted system in which the 'core' of combat was about groups and armies, with war having the most complexity and personal-scale combat being resolved quickly and simply, possibly with a single-roll system. The rationale was, as I recall, that Exalted was a game about the bigger picture, about the scale of kings and nations.

And that struck me as completely out of touch with all Exalted fans I knew outside here? Not just the OPP boards where I sometimes hang out, not just my players, just... everyone else. I'm not saying there wouldn't be an audience for this game - there certainly would - but that audience wouldn't be the people who have been playing Exalted so far.
 
I know that, yes, and I'm not discounting it. What I'm asking is why, if the combat system is that granular, it isn't a general quality of the game mechanics, across the board. Why is the Craft system not also that granular - not complex in terms of Charms, but granular at the base level? Why is the Bureaucracy system non-existent not just as detailed and action-by-action based? Why is binding a demon resolved in one roll, when killing it has a 10-step process for each attack?

Presumably there are people who would find all of these systems fun to work through as well, and Exalted prided itself on not just being a "kill things and loot their stuff" dungeon crawler, so why is combat the only system with so much depth to it? It's not supposed to be the most important part of the game - the original intent, even if they never pulled it off mechanically, is that you should progress to nation-building and ruling and big, large-scale downtime stuff far beyond punching people in the face. And yet the focus of game effort is overwhelmingly on face-punching, which rather tosses that original intent out of the window.

I'm not saying that it being this way is an Objectively Bad Thing. I'm calling attention to the fact that it is an anomaly, and that a vast amount of game complexity and resolution time is sunk into combat that simply does not exist anywhere else.

An OC shipper who attacks people with steel chakrams (or donuts of steel), who lets you onto your ship if you approve of nonsense words like "Yuunoha" or "Shieldshock" or "Destiel", and whose daughters are her, with things she's taken from other characters - and although she pretends they're separate, when it comes down to it they do exactly what she wants them to.

And an archetype of every bland shonen character/harem protagonist ever, who makes characters around him super-special and interesting with his gifts then subjugates them to his plotline, who's always the underdog pulling off a shonen-esque victory (by punching people in the face), who never actively does anything and only ever reacts, and whose escape condition triggers when Sailor Moon runs into him because she's dashing down the street with a slice of toast in her mouth.
Aaah. My apologies, Aleph, I misread you, then. I thiiink it's probably a relative 'how popular would granular combat versus granular bureaucracy' be? Like deep in depth combat is probably more fun than deep in-depth bureaucracy? I dunno! Maybe it's just lack of space, too. I certainly like the new in-depth Craft a lot, though obviously in these parts of the web I'm an anomaly. It'd be interesting, I think, to try. I'd probably have fun with it, I think? Maybe I wouldn't, though. I'd like to see a company with more money take a risk on that.

so many test combats
Hey you can say no at any time, I only have the one sniper, and I can't afford to have him watch you 24/7! Also let's tell them how scary the Earth Immaculate is! And how scary Solar Melee is!
 
I think the wild success of "kill things and take their stuff" gameplay in general suggests that actually lots of people really do find granular combat much more interesting than granular (other subsystem). Even among people who are avoiding something like D&D, they may just hold that feeling less strongly rather than having rejected it altogether.

(I don't think your choices are wrong, just that the preference of a big chunk of the playerbase doesn't really surprise me.)
I think this is similar to the issue regarding female main characters in games. Male leads absolutely blow them out of the water profit wise. But is it because female leads are bad, or because everyone makes male leads, they have lower budgets, etc?

Ride and bureaucracy aren't simply unpopular because no one likes them or they're unfun. They're unpopular because the implementation and support sucks ass.
 
An OC shipper who attacks people with steel chakrams (or donuts of steel), who lets you onto your ship if you approve of nonsense words like "Yuunoha" or "Shieldshock" or "Destiel", and whose daughters are her, with things she's taken from other characters - and although she pretends they're separate, when it comes down to it they do exactly what she wants them to.

And an archetype of every bland shonen character/harem protagonist ever, who makes characters around him super-special and interesting with his gifts then subjugates them to his plotline, who's always the underdog pulling off a shonen-esque victory (by punching people in the face), who never actively does anything and only ever reacts, and whose escape condition triggers when Sailor Moon runs into him because she's dashing down the street with a slice of toast in her mouth.

Thanks, I'm not familiar enough with the genres to pick those up without explanation. And you are clearly right that ES is terrible.
 
So how does OC react to comments about how she's sailing around in Elloge's afterbirth?

I assume Blando is left fuming in impotent rage every time he contemplates how Lilunu will never be his waifu?

So is Elloge's fetich soul the dreaded Ma'lisu, The End Sign?
Well, taking OC and Blando seriously for a moment in terms of what they say about Elloge, I'd imagine her fetich soul (whatever its name) is the embodiment of anyone who has ever desperately wanted to create, but who knows that they are incapable of creating anything worthwhile.

I'd almost go so far as to say that this version Elloge might have been born from He Who Bleeds The Unknown Word not through fetich death, but by killing all of his other Third Circle souls and very deliberately leaving his fetich alone. Essentially, his fetich originally was (and her fetich still is, really) the desire to create, but all of his ability to do so was in the souls that were murdered; his transformation happened when he tried to make new art, then gave in to despair upon realizing that he could never again create anything that wasn't forgettable and mediocre.

...huh, that would kind of make Elloge the Yozi equivalent of a PMMM Witch, wouldn't it?
 
So is Elloge's fetich soul the dreaded Ma'lisu, The End Sign?

No, probably not - at least by the way that I write Third Circles.

See, my head rules for how to write Third Circles is that a Third Circle is at once an Intimacy, a means and method by which the Yozi interacts with the world, and a statement about the Yozi and its aesthetics/themes in question.

Take the Shashalme. For Metagaos, they are:

Intimacy: Lazy Egotism (Myself)
Means/Method: Mind-enslaving infection
Statement: Fruit exists to trick birds into spreading seeds.

Out of that, you get a decadent jungle demon prince that loves being adored, believes that Metagaos came into being so that it might exist, and gives you gifts so you're in its debt and while you're in its debt, you find yourself adoring it. Which means the people it gives gifts to either repay it or become its slaves. And the Shashalme is beautiful and brightly coloured and lazes around in overgrown ruins, trading favours and debts and giving people gold (which means almost nothing to it but is pretty and shiny). The Shashalme is built to be a dangerous corruptive antagonist for Sidereals and other Celestials, because it's the classic "Greed" based demon in how it bribes people and how its cultists are always rich and the more they accept from it, the deeper in its debt they get and the more they adore it. It's also built to be a fairly tolerable patron for Infernals, who can use it as a source of Backgrounds but who have to always be careful to keep on top of how much they owe it and try to be proactive and do things for it so it'll reward you - because it finds being in anyone's debt to be physically painful.

Using the same thing, we can reverse-engineer Ligier into the same set of statements:

What is he? He holds Malfeas in contempt, he cuts Malfeas up and makes things from harming his greater self, he's linked to the GSNF tree and Sun Heart Furnace Soul. So we can get a similar set of statements akin to:

Intimacy: Self-hatred (Myself)
Means/Method: Overwhelming power (Sun Heart Furnace Soul, GSNF tree)
Statement: Suns are radioactive things that make dense elements out of lighter ones.

And as Malfeas' heart, his Intimacy is probably the most critical part of Malfeas. He hates himself. Malfeas hates everything, but most of all he hates himself. That's the core of him.

Same for Iudicavisse, my fan-written fetich for Cecelyne, who's built from that idea of a reverse engineered Malfeas-Ligier link, used to create the fetich for my interpretation of Cecelyne. She is as follows:

Intimacy: Power Is the Only Thing That Matters (Bleak Acceptance)
Means/Method: Making arbitrary rules
Statement: All systems will tend towards having the goal of furthering themselves.

And that's why she's an archer-princess who literally uses law as a weapon and who has the end goal of enslaving the other Yozis with a second Surrender Oath so they have to do whatever arbitrary thing she says. She's the core of Cecelyne, stripped of any other ideas of how the world could be better or the ideas of perfect justice she held before the Primordial War. Back before the war, she truly wanted to use the law to make a perfect fair system (from within her frame of references), but now those souls are dead and when it comes down to it, the purpose of power for a system such as her is more power. Cecelyne's fetich is not depressed even if the greater Cecelyne is, because the greater Cecelyne is the expression of the interaction of her other souls. Cecelyne's fetich says, "Do what I say shall be the whole of the law" and loves it.

So Elloge's fetich? It's going to be the fundamental thing Elloge uses to interact with the world, and that - at least as I see it from Revlid's version - is rejecting it. Elloge would love to be a Mary Sue, something perfect and narrative warping that makes the world revolve around her - but in her heart of hearts, she's not. She's symbolicly someone hurt and traumatised just as much as Adorjan is, and just as Adorjan runs from her issues, Elloge tries to escape from them in a way where she can't be hurt by things which don't matter and she can control everything.

Hence, yes, @The Sandman is probably right to bring up the idea of a PMMM witch. Elloge's fetich is probably going to be something that hides in a fantasy world, and which snatches up other demons and strips them down to narrative simplicity, so it knows everything about them and uses them to populate its world. The other souls are the tools for interacting with the outside world - the "Take ideas from everyone else and make them your own" and "Twist other beings into being a lesser part of your existence". They're her scrabbling attempts to handle a world that hurts and terrifies her. Elloge's fetich is the core of that cluster, a terrified thing that hides in fantasy and denies that the outside world even exists.

Or maybe not. I can hardly speak authoritatively here. Just really throwing ideas out at this point.
 
I know that, yes, and I'm not discounting it. What I'm asking is why, if the combat system is that granular, it isn't a general quality of the game mechanics, across the board. Why is the Craft system not also that granular - not complex in terms of Charms, but granular at the base level? Why is the Bureaucracy system non-existent not just as detailed and action-by-action based? Why is binding a demon resolved in one roll, when killing it has a 10-step process for each attack?

Presumably there are people who would find all of these systems fun to work through as well, and Exalted prided itself on not just being a "kill things and loot their stuff" dungeon crawler, so why is combat the only system with so much depth to it? It's not supposed to be the most important part of the game - the original intent, even if they never pulled it off mechanically, is that you should progress to nation-building and ruling and big, large-scale downtime stuff far beyond punching people in the face. And yet the focus of game effort is overwhelmingly on face-punching, which rather tosses that original intent out of the window.

I'm not saying that it being this way is an Objectively Bad Thing. I'm calling attention to the fact that it is an anomaly, and that a vast amount of game complexity and resolution time is sunk into combat that simply does not exist anywhere else.

An OC shipper who attacks people with steel chakrams (or donuts of steel), who lets you onto your ship if you approve of nonsense words like "Yuunoha" or "Shieldshock" or "Destiel", and whose daughters are her, with things she's taken from other characters - and although she pretends they're separate, when it comes down to it they do exactly what she wants them to.

And an archetype of every bland shonen character/harem protagonist ever, who makes characters around him super-special and interesting with his gifts then subjugates them to his plotline, who's always the underdog pulling off a shonen-esque victory (by punching people in the face), who never actively does anything and only ever reacts, and whose escape condition triggers when Sailor Moon runs into him because she's dashing down the street with a slice of toast in her mouth.

Well at the very base level the social influence and craft systems of third Ed are actually not that much less complex. They certainly are, but you've got to go through at least 12 different steps to completely change somebody's deep held convictions about something. With extreme in story circumstances and use of support abilities being able to cut that down of course. Then again knowing nothing about your target can even increase those steps.

I think the complexity of the systems, and how much spotlight they get, can be reflected in the abilities. There's six or seven dedicated combat abilities, four or five dedicated social abilities, and a very wide spread of other abilities. Two for travel, one which is a combat auxiliary and the other useful in naval combat, one for mobility and strength, one for bureaucratic projects, one for wilderness survival. And many of those can be used to help socially or martial lay as well.

I think that does a good job of showing where the focus of Exalted wants to be, epic battles, grand speeches, deadly assassins, and court intrigue. It includes things like survival, athletics and awareness because you want to make it possible to play a hardy survivalist girl, but surviving in the wild isn't an aspect of the game you'd see brought up in most sessions in most campaigns. Unlike fighting and social influence, which come up in basically every campaign and most sessions even.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the craft system is now....possibly more complex than combat, but I think that has more to do with trying to make craft more engaging and interact more with the story.

EDIT2: Also why there isn't more of a huge complex focus on things like bureaucracy when the game is about kingdom forging and rulership, I've heard, is exactly the same reason Game of Thrones is about duels and murder and sex and betrayal and not about planting season and mining operations. The fun stuff happens at human scale, even if it has global implications.
 
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@EarthScorpion well, you've already noted your approach to First Circle demons (sapient tools. Weird ones perhaps, but tools), but whatbout your approach to Second Circle demons?

Because I like your approach to Third Circles.
 
I'm trying to figure out what the Fetich Soul for The Ebon Dragon would be like.

I figure it'd be something along the lines of 'All Things Betray' (Gleeful Acceptance), but Ebby is so 1-dimensional in 2nd Edition that I can't picture anything more than a miniature Ebon Dragon.
The Ebon Dragon's fetich is a smaller Ebon Dragon. Its subsouls are all even smaller Ebon Dragons, and they've each designed hundreds of subtly different "tiny Ebon Dragon" first circles. He's just Ebby all the way down.
 
I'm trying to figure out what the Fetich Soul for The Ebon Dragon would be like.

I figure it'd be something along the lines of 'All Things Betray' (Gleeful Acceptance), but Ebby is so 1-dimensional in 2nd Edition that I can't picture anything more than a miniature Ebon Dragon.

There was kind of a fun idea floated in second edition that his fetich was actually a noble creature of virtue and empathy, for that reason The Ebon Dragon was so ashamed of it that he kept it hidden away from everything.
 
I'm trying to figure out what the Fetich Soul for The Ebon Dragon would be like.

I figure it'd be something along the lines of 'All Things Betray' (Gleeful Acceptance), but Ebby is so 1-dimensional in 2nd Edition that I can't picture anything more than a miniature Ebon Dragon.
Ebby's fetich is the Unconquered Sun.

I thought everyone knew that. :V
 
I'm trying to figure out what the Fetich Soul for The Ebon Dragon would be like.

I figure it'd be something along the lines of 'All Things Betray' (Gleeful Acceptance), but Ebby is so 1-dimensional in 2nd Edition that I can't picture anything more than a miniature Ebon Dragon.
Scour 2e TED from your mind. Read the 1e description of the Shadow of All Things.

He is a force of antagonism and opposition; a cosmic yin principle who loves the doomed and the dying and who tests his prison endlessly because he cannot abide being constrained.

The Intimacy his fetich expresses is probably as simple as "Be Whatever I Am Forbidden".

(Warning: do not attempt to use reverse psychology on the fetich soul of the Ebon Dragon. It will not end well for you.)
 
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Scour 2e TED from your mind. Read the 1e description of the Shadow of All Things.

He is a force of antagonism and opposition; a cosmic yin principle who loves the doomed and the dying and who tests his prison endlessly because he cannot abide being constrained.

The Intimacy his fetich expresses is probably as simple as "Be Whatever I Am Forbidden".

(Warning: do not attempt to use reverse psychology on the fetich soul of the Ebon Dragon. It will not end well for you.)
Which makes the Fetich Soul as a thing of virtue and sunlight make even more sense, because what would be more forbidden to the Souls of the Ebon Dragon than his nemesis. (It would also probably be a lie, a false guise created by the Dragon's heart to mask it's true self.)
 
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